Azerbaijan's President Aliyev: 'I think it is right to be hopeful'
The president told Euronews he hopes ongoing talks with Armenia will end with with a successful scenario in the coming months.
Transcript
00:00 I've been looking forward for this moment for a long time.
00:02 Thank you very much for receiving us.
00:03 - You're welcome.
00:04 Very glad to see you.
00:05 Thank you for coming.
00:06 - Mr. President Aliyev, thank you very much
00:07 for having us here.
00:09 This region has been the stage of some of the most
00:14 violent episodes in the South Caucasus' recent history.
00:18 And the tensions haven't really gone away completely
00:22 since the 2020 peace deal.
00:24 To what do you attribute this constant hostility?
00:29 - Difficult to say.
00:30 I thought that after the second Karabakh war,
00:33 situation will be different.
00:35 And we were ready for peace.
00:38 And actually waiting for a while for international players
00:43 to give us some new suggestions.
00:46 We understood that it's a kind of a vacuum.
00:50 Nobody knows what to do.
00:52 And the situation when we had the declaration signed
00:57 on the 10th of November, 2020,
00:59 was not actually providing a sustainable peace.
01:03 It was not a peace treaty.
01:04 It was a declaration, actually de facto,
01:07 that was a capitulation act by Armenia.
01:10 Therefore, we started to put forward some initiatives
01:16 in order to find the final solution
01:20 to our conflict with Armenia.
01:23 We made it public.
01:24 We announced that we need to sign a peace agreement.
01:27 And then again, it was a vacuum.
01:30 So then we elaborated the principles for peace agreement,
01:34 which are well-known principles of international law,
01:39 like mutual recognition of territorial integrity,
01:42 sovereignty, international borders,
01:45 delimitation of borders,
01:46 non-use of force or threat of force.
01:48 And we put that proposal on the table.
01:51 So we, the country which suffered 30 years of occupation
01:56 and which restored justice by force,
01:59 we were the authors of new peace process.
02:04 I would not say it is going very smoothly.
02:08 We're still optimistic because we are now engaged
02:12 in very active negotiations on the level
02:15 of foreign ministers of both countries.
02:17 - And I was gonna ask you about that.
02:18 I'm sorry to interrupt,
02:19 but you've just returned from Brussels
02:22 from another round of peace talks.
02:24 These peace talks have been filling many people
02:27 with hope of lasting peace
02:28 between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
02:30 Are we right to be hopeful?
02:31 What came out of this latest round?
02:34 - Yeah, I think it is right thing to be hopeful,
02:37 but I can tell you that peace negotiations
02:41 have been held by foreign ministers.
02:44 Our meetings in Brussels organized
02:46 by president of European Council,
02:49 these meetings actually allow us
02:52 to touch upon very sensitive issues.
02:56 - For example?
02:58 - Like future parameters of the boundaries,
03:03 because the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan
03:07 has not been defined because as soon
03:09 as the Soviet Union collapsed, we faced this aggression.
03:13 So how the border will look like,
03:15 what will be the real situation on the ground,
03:19 what will be situation with communications,
03:23 because Armenia has obligation,
03:26 which is signed as a result of the Second Karabakh War
03:29 to allow us access to our exclave, Nakhchivan,
03:33 but still it is not happening.
03:36 So main concentration on paragraphs of peace treaty
03:41 are made by the ministers.
03:44 Our meetings, they just create, I think, a good atmosphere.
03:48 But if we see a constructive approach from Armenian side,
03:53 and most important, if they totally put down
03:58 all their aspirations to contest our territorial integrity,
04:03 then we can find the peace solution very soon,
04:06 maybe even by the end of the year.
04:08 - Well, we'll get more into the negotiations later,
04:12 but I'm curious to ask you,
04:14 there's been many international players
04:16 attempting to mediate the situation.
04:19 What does the EU bring to the negotiating table?
04:23 - Actually, EU was not part of the mediation process
04:27 during the times of occupation
04:28 when we had negotiations since 1992.
04:32 It was the initiative of President
04:35 of European Council Charles Michel,
04:38 who invited us and we supported that
04:42 because we think that taking into account
04:46 the level of cooperation between Azerbaijan and EU
04:49 and Armenia and EU, I think it's natural
04:52 for EU to be active,
04:54 especially when after the second Karabakh war,
04:58 Minsk Group was no longer functional.
05:02 Actually, it is not functioning any longer.
05:05 So there should have been some international institution.
05:09 And I thought that EU can be the best
05:12 because our relations with EU
05:15 based on mutual respect and mutual trust
05:19 and mutual interest.
05:21 So this initiative now is transforming
05:24 into a very active format of dialogue
05:27 because we meet not only in Brussels,
05:30 we also meet, for instance, at the sidelines
05:32 of the European Peace Initiative format.
05:36 Last time it was in Chisinau.
05:39 And I think it's important because
05:42 we do not allow situation to stagnate
05:45 because if it is stagnation,
05:47 if it's again kind of a break,
05:50 then we are not guaranteed from any dangerous scenario.
05:55 - And do you think that the growing mediation
06:00 of the West, the EU, but also the United States
06:04 has somewhat antagonized
06:07 a more traditional power broker here in the region, Russia,
06:11 or the other way around,
06:12 the fact that Russia has somewhat been bogged down
06:15 in Ukraine has left some space
06:18 for potentially Azerbaijan and Armenia
06:20 to come to common ground?
06:23 - Well, actually, Russia was a mediator
06:26 of ceasefire agreement or declaration of 10 November 2020.
06:33 And it was not United States,
06:37 it was not EU.
06:39 And our first meetings with my Armenian colleague
06:44 were organized by Russia, in Russia.
06:47 So after Russian-Ukrainian war,
06:49 situation has changed.
06:51 And we started to see that United States and Europe
06:54 became more active.
06:56 And actually for us, it's not actually big difference
06:59 who will lead the process
07:01 or who will, to a certain degree,
07:04 monopolize the negotiation process.
07:07 Important is to come to a result.
07:09 Whichever actor can produce initiatives
07:14 that lead to peace agreement, we will support it.
07:19 And by the way, negotiations between our foreign ministers
07:23 were held in Washington.
07:26 Now we got invitation from Russia
07:29 to held round of negotiations in Russia.
07:34 Later this month, and we agreed.
07:37 So if there'll be some other location,
07:40 of course we will agree,
07:41 because it's important for us
07:43 is to come to an agreement and to have a result.
07:47 Of course, understanding the certain geopolitical rivalries,
07:51 some attempts of some players to be more active,
07:55 but we can only appreciate that.
07:57 If there's a healthy rivalry,
08:00 it will lead only to good results.
08:02 - What would you say, because I understand
08:05 you have a long historical
08:08 and complex relationship with Russia.
08:10 How would you say is the Russia influence
08:14 in the region at the moment?
08:16 - Well, it's difficult for me to say about the region,
08:19 because the region of Southern Caucasus
08:21 consists of three countries.
08:23 And we can only observe the Russia's interaction
08:28 with our neighbors in the Southern Caucasus.
08:32 But as far as Azerbaijan is concerned,
08:34 not many things have changed,
08:37 because our relations with Russia were already balanced.
08:40 They were based on recognition
08:44 of each other's national interests.
08:47 And of course, so territorial integrity and sovereignty.
08:50 Russia is a neighbor to Azerbaijan and a partner.
08:57 We have quite a substantial trade turnover,
09:01 a lot of projects related to transportation infrastructure,
09:05 especially now at this moment.
09:08 Projects related to energy development
09:11 and cultural, of course, segment is very important.
09:14 - You have been striking more deals,
09:16 especially with regards to the energy sector.
09:19 - No. - With the West now, no?
09:20 - Yeah, with the West, yeah.
09:22 But that was a long time ago
09:24 when we launched the initiative
09:27 to build an integrated pipeline system
09:30 from Baku to Italy.
09:33 It started to be implemented in stages,
09:36 and the final stage was implemented
09:39 something more than two years ago.
09:41 So it's already for something more than two years.
09:44 Azerbaijan became an important gas supplier to Europe.
09:49 And of course, a situation with sanctions on Russia
09:53 created a new dimension
09:57 because our energy resources now are needed more than before.
10:01 But whatever we do,
10:03 we do it based on the plans and contracts
10:06 which have been signed many years ago.
10:09 It is true that now we have more countries
10:12 who are applying for additional gas from Azerbaijan,
10:15 and we're ready to do it, and we already started.
10:18 More countries started to get our gas already last year,
10:21 and this year it will continue.
10:23 But again, it's from point of view
10:28 of our relations with Russia,
10:30 not many things have changed
10:32 since Russian-Ukrainian war started.
10:34 - Can we talk about the situation here on the ground?
10:37 Because the International Court of Justice,
10:41 the European Court of Human Rights,
10:42 the US, the EU have all demanded guarantees
10:46 with regards to the freedom of movement
10:47 in the Lachin Corridor nearby,
10:50 citing the danger of effectively,
10:53 potentially holding a population under siege
10:55 if that corridor is blocked.
10:57 What do you know of what's happening in Lachin
11:00 in the corridor right now?
11:02 - Well, actually for more than two years
11:08 since the Second Karabakh War ended,
11:12 the so-called Lachin Corridor functioned as it functioned
11:17 during the times of occupation
11:19 with one difference.
11:21 It was under control of the Russian peacekeepers,
11:25 which was part of the trilateral declaration.
11:28 And there was no disruption,
11:32 and there was no steps from our side to interfere.
11:37 In the meantime, situation on the ground was changing.
11:43 And the reason why representatives
11:47 of civil society of Azerbaijan to certain degree
11:52 started to control the corridor
11:55 was because of the fact that illegal excavation
11:59 of natural resources in Karabakh restarted
12:04 in the beginning of November last year.
12:10 Because after the war, it was stopped because it is illegal.
12:13 These resources belong to us.
12:16 And the several foreign companies
12:18 were illegally exploiting our gold and copper mines.
12:23 We could not do anything about that
12:25 during the times of occupation.
12:26 But when the war ended,
12:28 it was obvious that this activity should have stopped.
12:31 And it stopped.
12:32 But then in November, it restarted.
12:34 Our representative of civil society
12:37 asked Russian peacekeepers to allow them
12:40 to conduct a monitoring on the mines
12:43 to see what is happening
12:45 and because we've seen that iron ore and golden ore
12:50 was being transported by trucks from Karabakh to Armenia,
12:55 accompanied by Russian peacekeepers.
12:57 So we were denied the right for access.
13:01 And that is how our civil society representatives
13:06 started to control it.
13:08 But again, the road was not closed.
13:11 It was absolutely free, and the movement was free.
13:14 - So it was never interrupted?
13:16 Traffic was never interrupted?
13:17 - No, no.
13:18 - So why do you think these institutions have asked,
13:20 especially on the part of Azerbaijan,
13:22 because they said you were responsible
13:25 for the area surrounding it,
13:26 so you should ensure the freedom of movement.
13:28 Why do you think that is?
13:29 Are they targeting you just because of--
13:31 - Actually, International Court of Justice
13:33 actually addressed its message to us
13:39 to communicate with civil society activists
13:44 not to disrupt any kind of movement, and we did it.
13:50 And as soon as we established the border checkpoint
13:54 on our border with Armenia, which is our legitimate right,
13:57 which is not contested by anyone,
13:59 including International Court of Justice,
14:02 we communicated through my representative here in Shusha
14:09 with NGOs representatives for them to stop,
14:14 and they stopped, they left.
14:17 So now freedom of movement is not blocked.
14:21 Since we established the border checkpoint
14:23 on the 23rd of April, there have been more than 2,000
14:27 residents of Karabakh who easily moved to Armenia and back.
14:35 On 15th of June, Armenia made another military provocation
14:40 and wounded one of our border security guards,
14:45 and temporarily the road was closed for investigation.
14:50 But then it was reopened.
14:51 Red Cross restarted again to transport medications
14:57 and evacuate patients who need treatment in Armenia.
15:02 But unfortunately, Red Cross trucks, when checked,
15:07 we found smuggling goods like cigarettes,
15:13 iPhones, and gasoline.
15:15 Red Cross admitted that, and they communicated with us
15:20 saying that they do not bear any responsibility
15:23 because these people--
15:24 - The trucks were being used by--
15:25 - But these trucks had their badge, logos,
15:29 and the drivers had their logos on their uniform.
15:34 So that's how, again, it was blocked,
15:37 and we asked from Red Cross to stop it,
15:40 and also ask them to work with us more constructively,
15:45 because unfortunately, until today,
15:49 their office in Karabakh is subordinated
15:52 not to Baku office, but to Yerevan office,
15:54 and this is not acceptable,
15:56 because the whole world recognizes Karabakh
15:59 as part of Azerbaijan.
16:01 Even Armenian prime minister said many times
16:03 that Karabakh is Azerbaijan,
16:05 and why Red Cross Khankendi office
16:08 is not subordinate to Baku office, but to Yerevan office,
16:11 that's our legitimate request.
16:14 - Would you say that this issue,
16:16 the issue of Lachin Corridor and that border control,
16:20 and this passageway, this crucial passageway,
16:23 is one of the main obstacles for peace right now?
16:27 - Well, I don't think so,
16:30 because situation on the road Lachin Khankendi
16:35 changed on the ground on 23rd of April,
16:39 when we established the border checkpoint.
16:42 Until that time, we had two and a half years
16:46 of time to come to peace agreement.
16:50 The only stumbling block was that Armenia
16:54 didn't want to recognize Karabakh
16:57 as part of Azerbaijan officially.
16:59 They, yes, they did it by statements,
17:03 by oral statements, which is also a proposition,
17:06 but they need to sign under the document.
17:08 So I don't think that these two issues are interrelated,
17:13 because I hope that peace negotiations with Armenia
17:20 will end with successful scenario,
17:24 and hopefully in the coming months.
17:28 - I believe you've already answered the question
17:29 I'm gonna ask you now, but I'm gonna ask you anyway,
17:32 'cause you're here,
17:33 and I won't get a chance of asking many times.
17:35 Some 5,000 people lost their lives in 2020 on both sides.
17:41 I was here, I came to Nagorno-Karabakh,
17:45 and I met many mothers of fallen Armenian soldiers.
17:50 I've also witnessed the pain and the devastation
17:54 on the other side, on your side,
17:56 through the work of my colleagues here in Azerbaijan.
17:59 But I remember speaking to one mother in particular
18:02 who told me she blamed politicians for the war
18:05 and for the death of her son,
18:07 saying that politicians should deal with things
18:10 in a diplomatic way and not fall into the trap of a war.
18:14 What would you say your mission is?
18:16 Is it to win a war or to bring lasting peace?
18:21 - Well, to win a war was a mission of my life,
18:25 of my political life, which ended successfully.
18:29 So we won the war despite many factors,
18:33 political, despite the factors of long-lasting
18:39 infrastructure projects on the occupied territories,
18:43 which made it very difficult for our military servicemen
18:47 to break several defense lines.
18:50 They had, in some parts, five, in some parts, seven
18:54 defense lines full of mines.
18:57 And also, you've noticed coming from Fuzuli
19:00 that the road climbs up.
19:02 So that's how our military servicemen came here.
19:06 The road which we came, the Victory Road,
19:09 as I called it later, did not exist.
19:12 It was a road how our military servicemen
19:15 were moving towards Shusha.
19:17 They were climbing these rocky mountains.
19:20 So despite these factors, despite strong political support
19:26 from many countries which have big Armenian diaspora,
19:31 we did what was right to do.
19:34 We restored justice and we restored our territorial integrity.
19:41 We fought on our land.
19:43 We didn't fight on Armenian land.
19:45 And we won.
19:47 So that was a mission number one, which is over.
19:52 And now we talk about peace.
19:54 And for a country which suffered 30 years of occupation,
19:59 'cause the territory which was under occupation
20:02 is totally ruined.
20:03 Shusha was not totally ruined
20:06 because there were illegal settlements in Shusha.
20:08 They wanted to resettle Armenians from Middle East
20:13 and there'd been a couple of thousands
20:15 Armenians living here.
20:17 That's why not all the cities have been destroyed.
20:19 But Fizuli, totally leveled to ground.
20:22 Agdam, the same.
20:23 Almost a million Azerbaijanis were deprived
20:27 from their homes.
20:29 So despite all that pain,
20:33 we did not take any action.
20:38 Take revenge.
20:40 I said we will take revenge on the battlefield.
20:43 But as soon as Armenia gave us dates
20:47 when they will withdraw from all the territories,
20:49 which I demanded from the first day of the war, we stopped.
20:53 And then we started to talk about peace.
20:55 So now peace is on our agenda.
20:59 If Armenia wants peace, we will reach it.
21:03 Because we do not have any territorial claims to Armenia.
21:07 And we don't want them to have any territorial claims.
21:10 People who live in Karabakh,
21:12 in area which is controlled now
21:15 temporarily by Russian peacekeepers,
21:18 they live in Azerbaijan.
21:20 And they should choose whether to live
21:23 as citizens of Azerbaijan, as ethnic minority,
21:27 as any other ethnic minority,
21:29 which Azerbaijan is rich of, or to leave.
21:32 So this is their choice.
21:34 It's not because we want them to leave
21:36 or as Armenia accuses us, we organize ethnic cleansing.
21:41 No, we give them a choice
21:43 because how can they leave on our territory
21:47 being a citizen of either Armenia
21:50 without any legal permission
21:52 or a citizen of so-called Nagorno-Karabakh Republic,
21:56 which is not recognized by anyone.
21:58 So I think this is a legitimate approach.
22:01 It is in line with international practice.
22:05 It's in line with the practice
22:07 which we see in many European countries,
22:10 which also fight against separatism.
22:12 And now we see how Europe and the West is united
22:17 to help Ukraine to fight against separatism.
22:21 And why in our case,
22:23 our fight against separatism is treated differently.
22:27 Why Georgia's approach to separatist regions
22:31 is fully understood by Western communities
22:34 and politicians and our legitimate,
22:37 the same origin desire to put an end to separatism
22:42 is under question.
22:44 Why Spain do not allow Catalonia to have a referendum?
22:49 Those are five or six millions
22:51 and they don't have their own state,
22:54 unlike Armenians, which have their state next door.
22:57 And why should we tolerate separatism?
22:59 And we will not.
23:01 - You have already issued messages as well
23:04 of reassurance towards the population that stayed,
23:07 saying that they will be allowed to stay if they want to
23:11 and protected and allowed to live here.
23:15 But do you have a message today to Armenians
23:18 who may be watching us, not necessarily the government.
23:21 I know you are in touch with Prime Minister Pashinyan.
23:23 You don't necessarily need our cameras
23:25 to send him a message,
23:26 but what about to other Armenians who may be watching us?
23:30 What is your message to the other side today?
23:34 - Well, I've never thought about that
23:37 because that's the first time in my life
23:39 I am asked this question.
23:41 - Really?
23:41 - Yes.
23:42 I think I would separate the question in two.
23:48 First, if they listen to what I say,
23:53 message to Armenians in Armenia
23:59 that we want to have peace with the state.
24:04 We don't have territorial claims to Armenia,
24:08 though hundreds of thousands of Azerbaijanis
24:12 lived in Armenia before the war
24:15 and were totally ethnically cleansed.
24:18 And their cultural and religious heritage
24:20 was totally destroyed.
24:21 Nevertheless, we don't have any territorial claims,
24:26 but we think that Azerbaijanis who have been deported
24:31 forcefully from Armenia have a right to return
24:35 when Azerbaijan and Armenia will normalize their relations
24:41 and establish diplomatic relations.
24:44 Another message to them is to clearly realize
24:49 the current geopolitical situation
24:51 and the balance of forces.
24:53 For many years, leaders of Armenia
24:56 were persuading their people
24:58 that they have the strongest army in the world,
25:01 that if the war starts, they will come to Baku,
25:05 that Azerbaijan will not fight for its lands,
25:08 that Azerbaijanis already agreed for occupation.
25:11 All these narratives which were absolutely false
25:14 and was nothing more than propaganda.
25:17 So the war destroyed that narrative, and not only that,
25:22 it also destroyed a lot of ideological,
25:26 I would say, columns of Armenian state.
25:32 They realized that they lost the war,
25:35 and most probably it was very painful
25:37 for them psychologically.
25:39 So now when we say that we want peace,
25:46 it's not because we are weak and we are seeking for peace,
25:49 no, they know that we are much stronger.
25:52 It's because we want this black page of our history
25:58 to be turned down.
25:59 We don't want another war,
26:02 neither today nor ever in the future.
26:06 So for Armenian community,
26:11 I think they should not oppose peace initiatives
26:15 of international community.
26:17 They should understand that if they don't sign
26:21 peace agreement with Azerbaijan,
26:23 situation in the future will be unpredictable,
26:26 and geopolitical situation in the world
26:30 and in the region changing, as we see, very dramatically.
26:35 And part of their hopes for their security
26:40 vanished completely.
26:41 Now they're looking for new security guarantors,
26:46 and who is ready to have a standoff with Azerbaijan
26:50 on the battlefield in this area,
26:53 especially after what we demonstrated during the war,
26:57 and after we increased our defense capability
27:02 after the war.
27:03 Is there anyone ready to fight for Armenians against us?
27:08 I doubt it.
27:10 So, and also another message,
27:14 which I already conveyed to Armenian government,
27:19 in this particular situation,
27:22 for them the choice is not the best and the very best.
27:26 For them the choice is among very bad and acceptable,
27:31 but acceptable based on common sense,
27:36 on international law,
27:38 and on recognizing the rights of Azerbaijanis
27:42 to live on their own land,
27:44 which they deprived us for 30 years.
27:48 And for Armenians in Karabakh,
27:51 I'd like to remind them that we started
27:54 contacts with them spontaneously.
27:59 Actually, it was mainly people-to-people contacts
28:04 when we started to build a new Lachin Road,
28:08 which passed through several villages,
28:12 where Armenian population lived.
28:15 And I was informed that the contacts have been established
28:18 between our road construction workers
28:20 and Armenian community,
28:23 and immediately they became almost friends.
28:28 If in the first months of the construction,
28:31 Russian peacekeepers were providing security
28:34 for both sides, so then they just left.
28:37 And there was no Russian peacekeepers
28:38 and they were easily communicated.
28:42 So it demonstrates that ordinary people,
28:46 in the majority, they don't have this hatred
28:51 in their hearts.
28:53 And for Armenians in Karabakh,
28:54 they should not follow their so-called leaders.
28:59 These leaders were lying to them all the time,
29:03 current and previous,
29:06 before the war, during the war,
29:08 that they're winning.
29:10 Even when we took control of Shusha,
29:12 they were telling that Shusha is under their control.
29:14 They know it very well.
29:15 They should not become a hostage
29:19 of today's clique,
29:22 which captured power in Karabakh,
29:25 and whose main objective is
29:28 to provide their own interests.
29:33 Here in Shusha, there are three villas
29:36 built during the times of occupation.
29:40 And if you are interested,
29:41 maybe they can show it to you.
29:44 And these villas were built for the leaders
29:47 of Karabakh Armenians.
29:48 They built it for themselves.
29:50 The city was totally in ruins.
29:52 What you see now, it's the beginning
29:55 of our reconstruction process,
29:58 including this Karabakh hotel,
29:59 including the mayor's office,
30:02 including hotels and everything.
30:04 They built three villas in the best part
30:07 of the city for themselves.
30:09 Those people who today lead
30:12 this so-called unrecognized republic.
30:15 So Karabakh Armenians should understand
30:19 that being part of Azerbaijan society,
30:23 with security guarantees, we understand it,
30:26 with their rights, including educational,
30:29 cultural, religious, municipal rights,
30:33 they will live normal life.
30:35 And they will also stop to be hostage
30:38 of manipulation.
30:40 And also they should understand
30:42 that situation which they are now today,
30:46 probably will not change in their favor
30:51 if they continue to ignore us.
30:56 If they continue to behave like we do not exist,
31:01 or they leave in so-called country
31:07 which has president, ministers, parliamentarians,
31:12 this is all fake.
31:15 We offer them normal life.
31:18 And I think if they listen to me,
31:22 they should understand and they know
31:25 that I mean what I say.
31:28 - President Aliyev, thank you very much
31:30 for speaking to your audience.