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00:00:00 Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us.
00:00:03 I'd like to welcome you to this Cliff Talk,
00:00:05 a masterclass with a very special guest, Christine Rachon,
00:00:10 who's joining us from New York, the Killer Films Company.
00:00:16 We also have Michael Fleming from our media partner Deadline,
00:00:21 who will walk us through an interesting masterclass
00:00:25 that we're about to enjoy.
00:00:27 Just one comment, only an official photographer
00:00:31 will be able to stay here throughout the rest of the talk,
00:00:34 so photography at the beginning is only possible.
00:00:38 So enjoy the masterclass. Thank you.
00:00:41 [applause]
00:00:46 Thank you.
00:00:47 I'm Mike Fleming, the co-editor of Deadline,
00:00:50 and in the past few days, I've been reading more about Christine Rachon
00:00:54 than I have about Tom Cruise, who's stumping for the next Mission Impossible.
00:00:59 So you know the work of this New York independent film scene fixture
00:01:04 who runs Killer Films with Pam Koffler.
00:01:07 Now, Christine has largely avoided fishing in that big pond
00:01:10 of Hollywood blockbusters and mainstream fare
00:01:13 in favor of that smaller pond of adult-themed independent films
00:01:18 where the special effects have more to do with eliciting human emotion
00:01:22 at a complex and often provocative storylines.
00:01:26 Welcome, Christine.
00:01:27 Thank you.
00:01:29 So...
00:01:30 [applause]
00:01:36 I've read you say in a number of places
00:01:39 that people don't really know what producers like you do.
00:01:45 Taking...
00:01:47 Maybe we can be specific to past lives and you scream, I scream.
00:01:52 What does Christine Vachon, the producer, do
00:01:56 from tangible to intangible
00:01:59 that bring challenging but worthy indie films to life?
00:02:04 So first of all, I love what you called the movie,
00:02:08 "You Scream, I Scream."
00:02:11 It's "You Sing Loud, I Sing Louder."
00:02:12 - Oh, right, that's true. - But I think...
00:02:14 You know, we've been talking about changing the title
00:02:16 and maybe we'll steal that from you.
00:02:19 - It does make you hungry for ice cream, doesn't it? - Yes, it does.
00:02:22 [laughter]
00:02:23 - Sorry about that. - No problem.
00:02:26 So, I mean, I would say, you know, using both those movies as an example,
00:02:32 I just want to say, though, first off,
00:02:34 I think what producers...
00:02:36 First and foremost, they are the engine on the train.
00:02:40 And since each train is kind of different,
00:02:43 what a producer does is different to keep things moving along.
00:02:48 When we came on to "Past Lives,"
00:02:53 the actors were already attached or about to be attached.
00:02:57 So often a big part of what I do is bring talent on board,
00:03:02 especially when we work with first-time directors,
00:03:05 because sometimes I have to, you know, vouch for them,
00:03:09 prove to various talent agencies
00:03:12 that this director is somebody who's got the goods.
00:03:16 Sometimes my shorthand for that is
00:03:18 we just have to be the adults in the room.
00:03:20 So everyone's like, "Okay, my actor's safe," or what have you.
00:03:25 And then it's really just about doing whatever we can
00:03:29 to keep that project moving forward.
00:03:33 You know, getting the cast, getting the creative department heads,
00:03:38 and, of course, the financing.
00:03:40 You know, we were lucky on "Past Lives" that A24 was already involved.
00:03:44 Now, with "You Sing Loud,"
00:03:46 that was a different enterprise because, you know, on the one hand,
00:03:51 you know, we had Ewan McGregor from the beginning.
00:03:53 And I think I told this story last night,
00:03:55 but, you know, we were making "Halston" with Ewan,
00:03:58 which was my second project with him.
00:04:00 My first was "Velvet Goldmine" one million years ago.
00:04:04 And he came up to me on the set and said,
00:04:07 "Please don't hate me, but would you read this script
00:04:10 that my daughter made with her friend?"
00:04:13 And I was like, "Oh, God."
00:04:16 But we actually-- we thought it was really strong, authentic, original.
00:04:22 And then it was about actually finding a director
00:04:26 who turned out to be a first-time director, Emma Westerberg,
00:04:30 and really surrounding her with people
00:04:34 that could help her do her best work,
00:04:37 and then finding financiers who I could convince
00:04:41 that this was, you know, something worthy of their dollars.
00:04:47 Now, that movie, which I saw on Sundance,
00:04:52 it seems to be probably what I imagined
00:04:57 the father-daughter relationship to be like
00:05:00 between Ewan and his daughter, Claire.
00:05:03 Give a sense of that, and was that an appeal?
00:05:08 It kind of adds an element when people bleed on the page
00:05:14 when they write scripts so close to home.
00:05:18 What struck you about all that?
00:05:20 Absolutely, but I also--
00:05:25 I responded to the script because I felt like it was a fresher,
00:05:32 more original take on that kind of a relationship.
00:05:36 And the fact that they could bring their own relationship to bear on it,
00:05:39 of course, I think just made their performances deeper and more nuanced.
00:05:44 But, you know, there's-- obviously, there's some parallel,
00:05:48 but there's a lot of just, you know,
00:05:51 things that they brought to it from their lives,
00:05:53 but also not from their lives.
00:05:55 - Yeah, she's really good. - She's really good.
00:05:57 And I could just imagine the pride her father felt
00:06:02 helping her do what they did.
00:06:05 It's quite something.
00:06:07 Now, I want to go back in time a little bit, past Velvet Goldmine.
00:06:11 And, you know, the Hollywood hype machine is working overtime right now,
00:06:15 getting ready for the launch of Barbie,
00:06:17 the $100 million budget first film involving the Mattel toy line,
00:06:22 only it wasn't the first movie involving Barbie.
00:06:26 Now, when your long-running collaboration with Todd Hayes started,
00:06:31 you guys made "Superstar," the Karen Carpenter story,
00:06:35 about the singer who died from anorexia.
00:06:38 It was a straight take on her life and death,
00:06:41 and it was acted out by Barbie dolls.
00:06:44 And then the film featured songs from the Carpenters,
00:06:47 and unfortunately, the family didn't know about it
00:06:50 and didn't grant the right to those songs.
00:06:53 And, you know, as a young producer, I'm sure you think, "What could go wrong?"
00:06:57 What do you remember about Barbie's first big-screen foray?
00:07:02 Well, first, I do need to be clear.
00:07:04 I didn't produce "Superstar." I did help Todd with it.
00:07:09 But Todd really made that film as a student film.
00:07:13 He was in the MFA program at Bard College.
00:07:17 And the reason he didn't seek permission for the songs
00:07:21 was because he didn't expect the film to blow up the way it did.
00:07:24 And just for those of you who haven't seen it,
00:07:27 "Superstar," the Karen Carpenter story, is a banned film.
00:07:31 And it's fantastic. It's about 45 minutes long.
00:07:34 It pops up on YouTube all the time. It's kind of like Whack-A-Mole.
00:07:39 It pops up, it gets taken down, pops up again, gets taken down.
00:07:43 So you can almost certainly find it.
00:07:46 And now it's been restored.
00:07:51 John Nienes is here, who helped us do that.
00:07:53 And there's a wonderful version of it that keeps popping up
00:07:57 that's really, you know, sort of the true director's cut.
00:08:03 Well, now, it got banned. Why?
00:08:06 I mean, was it--
00:08:06 Because he had no permission to use the music.
00:08:08 But really, I think it got banned because--
00:08:10 Mattel?
00:08:11 Well, actually, Mattel did pay a visit to our office.
00:08:14 But Todd was able-- Todd had actually used--
00:08:18 because he'd bought all these dolls in garage sales.
00:08:21 And remember, there was Barbie, but then there were all those Barbie ripoffs.
00:08:24 So he actually was able to prove to Mattel that it was an off-brand, you know?
00:08:30 That it wasn't Barbie.
00:08:31 It was, you know, it was what you bought if you're--
00:08:34 what you got if your parents couldn't afford Barbie.
00:08:36 [laughs]
00:08:38 And what about the Carpenter family?
00:08:40 I think they were more distressed at the way they felt the family was portrayed
00:08:47 than they were actually upset about the song use.
00:08:50 But I-- what do I know?
00:08:52 You know, the fact is, we still can't really show the movie.
00:08:56 Well, you know, it reminds me of when the Avengers directors,
00:08:59 Joe and Anthony Russo, they made a first film called "Pieces."
00:09:03 They took it to Slamdance.
00:09:05 They watched half the audience walk out.
00:09:07 And then they discovered they probably would never be able to release it
00:09:11 because they used all these songs they had no rights to and couldn't afford.
00:09:16 But Steven Soderbergh saw it, and he liked it,
00:09:18 and said they reminded him of him at an early stage.
00:09:22 And it led to their huge career.
00:09:24 What good for you and Todd came out of "Superstar," the Karen Carpenter story?
00:09:31 Well, the movie made a tremendous splash, and it got--
00:09:34 you know, until we got the true cease and desist order,
00:09:37 which we did eventually get.
00:09:39 It showed in movie theaters, museums.
00:09:44 Todd started to do a whole festival circuit with it.
00:09:48 He went to the Sundance Film Festival with it.
00:09:51 And this was so long ago, it wasn't even called the Sundance Film Festival.
00:09:54 It was called, I believe, the US or USA Film Festival.
00:09:57 And then we got the cease and desist order.
00:10:01 But he was able to use that movie to, you know, as we discussed,
00:10:07 gain the confidence to bring investors on,
00:10:10 you know, with my help for his first feature film, "Poison."
00:10:16 Well, now, you know, tell me about this long collaboration with Todd
00:10:23 and its encompassed "Poison," "Velvet Goldmine," "Far From Heaven,"
00:10:27 you know, the Bob Dylan film, "I'm Not There,"
00:10:29 leading up to May, December, which will come out in the fall.
00:10:37 What is it about-- what is it that works, that clicks between the two of you
00:10:44 that has led to such a long run?
00:10:46 It's the-- it's sort of like-- it sounds like the fantasy of every good producer
00:10:52 to be able to link up with a cornerstone filmmaker
00:10:56 who's really good at what they do.
00:10:57 I mean, you know, we're both-- we both are, I think, very naturally loyal people.
00:11:03 And I think that, you know, in a long-term relationship,
00:11:09 at a certain point, you decide if there's differences,
00:11:12 you're going to work through them, or you're going to walk away.
00:11:15 And we decided to work through them.
00:11:18 And the result is we have a real shorthand.
00:11:25 There's a tremendous amount of trust.
00:11:26 I feel like I have a real ability to figure out
00:11:32 what will help Todd do his best work,
00:11:36 what, you know, actors will interest him,
00:11:42 what-- you know, just an ability to sort of create an environment for him that works.
00:11:50 And look, it isn't always easy.
00:11:52 I mean, you know, it's not like he wants to make movies that, you know,
00:11:57 get themselves easily financed.
00:11:59 They're always extraordinarily challenging.
00:12:02 But that's the fun of it.
00:12:03 Well, what's the biggest disagreement, if you can recall,
00:12:07 that the two of you had over direction or what to do--
00:12:11 not direction, but, you know, a decision, a creative decision, or what project?
00:12:18 I don't know if we really have them in that sense.
00:12:23 I mean, we so figure out at the very beginning
00:12:29 what the trajectory of a film is going to be.
00:12:31 I mean, I always say the real problems on a movie happen
00:12:36 when everyone's not making the same film.
00:12:39 And sometimes the director's making a film that the financiers don't expect,
00:12:43 or the distributor doesn't expect, or the studio doesn't expect,
00:12:48 or an actor is acting in a movie that is not the same movie the director's directing.
00:12:55 So we really get on the same page about that.
00:12:58 And then I wouldn't say we have true disagreements.
00:13:01 It's more, you know, sometimes, you know,
00:13:06 I'll be very honest about the feasibility of, you know,
00:13:10 that this one's going to be really hard, you know.
00:13:12 And no director likes to hear that, you know.
00:13:16 But look, so far, you know, we've been able to really get
00:13:23 almost everything he's wanted to get on the screen on the screen.
00:13:27 Well, you know, your latest collaboration, "May/December,"
00:13:32 is fascinating in a way, it kind of mirrors that Mary Kay Latourneau scandal
00:13:38 where the teacher dated a student, her family broke up,
00:13:42 she was put in jail, disgraced, and then she marries this young guy
00:13:46 and they raise a family, which almost makes it seem a little Romeo and Juliet-esque,
00:13:52 I suppose, as opposed to something that could be viewed as tawdry.
00:13:56 Now, you don't use Barbie dolls to tell this story.
00:14:00 You've got Julianne Moore, you've got Natalie Portman,
00:14:03 who's an actress who's going to play Julianne's character,
00:14:09 and it cooks up all this intrigue between the two of them and her husband.
00:14:18 Now, you know, it's a fictional film where the characters are looking back post-scandal.
00:14:23 What were the challenges of telling a story inspired by real people?
00:14:29 I mean, it is inspired by real people, but it's also its own,
00:14:32 obviously, nobody's named Mary Kay.
00:14:38 It takes place in Savannah, Georgia.
00:14:43 I do want to say, though, that to me, one of the most extraordinary performances
00:14:49 in that film is Charles Melton, who plays the young man that Julianne marries.
00:14:58 So, you know, the challenge when we make films, because we do make a fair number of films,
00:15:02 that if they don't directly involve a true story that actually happened,
00:15:10 like "Boys Don't Cry" is a good example, or if they are inspired by events,
00:15:15 is the desire to feel that you're respectful to the event,
00:15:24 and to something like the LaTorno story, that had such a tremendous resonance in America.
00:15:30 And it kind of surprises me how many people, some of whom were children when it happened,
00:15:38 still remember it, and in a pop culture way as well.
00:15:42 I mean, there were so many, you know, there were myriad TV movies, lifetime movies,
00:15:50 2020s, all those kinds of, you know, "Where Are They Nows," "People" magazine, etc.
00:15:57 So when something has, when something tips over the zeitgeist to such a degree,
00:16:03 it's just, it's irresistible not to try and look under, you know, like under the hood of that.
00:16:10 Yeah. Well, did Todd consult them or feel the need to?
00:16:16 No.
00:16:16 Okay. So you just made, you made your movie.
00:16:20 So now, you know, why take this one to Netflix as opposed to
00:16:25 a distributor who'd take the chance of a theatrical release?
00:16:29 Well, I mean, Netflix is planning a theatrical.
00:16:32 I think, you know, it was a combination of their unbridled enthusiasm for it.
00:16:39 You know, this was a film that was financed independently.
00:16:43 So, you know, that means that there were investors who, you know, needed to be whole.
00:16:49 And, and it's so, so it really was a combination of their enthusiasm,
00:16:54 what they were going to put behind it, and the fact that we would get a theatrical as well.
00:17:00 I see. Well, you know, I came from here from Tower Mina,
00:17:05 where I did this master class on Saturday with Abel Ferreira and Willem Dafoe.
00:17:10 Now Willem, who can do superhero movies, but also these bold films with Abel,
00:17:16 was lamenting the challenge of people getting used to see, to see these challenges.
00:17:22 You know, he wants people to go to theaters, but he said people are conditioned now
00:17:27 for movies to come to them through streaming rather than them going to the movies.
00:17:33 And he feels for films like the ones you guys make, a communal, communal experience is everything.
00:17:40 As he was saying this, I was thinking of exactly where I was when I saw Platoon
00:17:45 with his fabulous performance and death scene.
00:17:48 But, you know, my kids don't really feel that.
00:17:53 They don't remember where they were when something great happens on the screen.
00:17:57 Chances are they're sitting on a couch at home.
00:17:59 You know, the, the, the pandemic exacerbated that, you know, as a cornerstone indie filmmaker,
00:18:07 how do you process what Willem said and what I just said,
00:18:13 and, and where this is going, specialty films, is there a future for them in theaters?
00:18:19 I mean, you know, the short answer is yes.
00:18:23 But look, what you're talking about is something that, you know, Pam Koffler and I,
00:18:29 and all of Killer, actually, that we gnaw on all the time.
00:18:33 I mean, I would say the pandemic accelerated it, you know, in the sense that
00:18:40 it sort of exposed in some ways where we were headed anyway.
00:18:45 That said, I have been doing this for a really long time.
00:18:49 So I've seen, I've seen the funeral for independent film happen time after time after time.
00:18:56 And I've referenced several times this weekend, you know, an essay that was written in the 90s,
00:19:03 I think, by, by Ted Hope, and I think maybe with James Shamus as well,
00:19:08 for whatever IndieWire was called at the time, that really, you could have written today,
00:19:12 that was really about the same issues, you know, except I think it used, you know,
00:19:17 VHS tapes instead of streamers as the villain.
00:19:21 And I, I guess my glass half full version is out of great disruption comes great opportunity.
00:19:32 And, and the fact that it, that it has become increasingly easier to create content and to
00:19:40 access content, I try to find the silver lining in that.
00:19:43 I also am heartened by the fact that, you know, that, you know, there are, there are
00:19:51 repertory houses in New York City that you can never get into because they're so full all the
00:19:57 time, you know, and that makes me, that gives me a lot of, of hope as well.
00:20:03 It does make me realize that, you know, there's the event, the event movies, which are really,
00:20:08 you know, those are superhero films, right?
00:20:11 So independent films have to create their own event movies.
00:20:14 And we have to sort of piece those together with extraordinarily original content.
00:20:20 You know, we need critics and awards and all of that to help us build that sense of urgency.
00:20:28 And when it works, it really works.
00:20:30 I guess, you know, what I would like is to see that happen, to see more movies, get it,
00:20:37 get that kind of anointment each year than just, you know, a tiny handful of independent films.
00:20:43 - Well, now what can these repertory houses do to do that?
00:20:48 I mean, you know, like we look at the streamers, I get emails from all the streamers every day
00:20:54 telling me based on what you watched, here's what you should watch next.
00:20:58 Are the theaters doing enough to feed this audience and cultivate it and create an ecosystem?
00:21:08 - I mean, I think what the theaters are trying to do is create a bigger experience.
00:21:13 You know, so many theaters now, I know in Europe, this is old hat, but
00:21:18 in America, the idea of eating a meal or having a drink in a movie theater is still relatively new,
00:21:24 as you know, and creating an event where your seat is extraordinarily comfortable,
00:21:32 where the projection is actually decent.
00:21:34 I don't know if in New York, you're ever going to get rid of the subway rumbling
00:21:38 under the theater, that happens in a lot of our theaters.
00:21:41 - Kind of charming, though.
00:21:42 - Yeah, sometimes.
00:21:46 So I think it's about creating environments that make the experience feel more like an event.
00:21:54 - Well, now, you know, another provocative movie that you had at Killer was Todd Salon's Happiness.
00:22:04 Now, if you saw this movie, it just leaves an indelible image.
00:22:09 Dylan Baker plays this pedophile who drugs and molests his son,
00:22:13 Pal, during a sleepover at the house.
00:22:16 Now, it is played as black comedy.
00:22:19 Sundance rejected it, as did its distributor, first distributor, October.
00:22:24 What happened there, and what do you learn from those kind of things?
00:22:29 If you've seen the movie, it's pretty brilliant.
00:22:31 - You know, actually, Sundance didn't reject it.
00:22:34 I know that's on its Wikipedia page.
00:22:36 But we took the movie to the director's fortnight at Cannes,
00:22:42 and it won a Critics Award.
00:22:44 It did really, really well there.
00:22:47 However, it was financed by October Films, by our old pal, Bingham Ray.
00:22:56 And the film, October Films, had just been bought by Universal.
00:23:06 And a reporter for The Hollywood Reporter wrote a story that was basically about how
00:23:12 well happiness had done at Cannes in the last paragraph.
00:23:16 Said, "I wonder how Universal feels, you know, Edgar Bronfman feels,
00:23:23 about the fact that his, you know, one of the subsidiaries of his,
00:23:28 you know, of Universal is distributing a movie that portrays a pedophile sympathetically."
00:23:34 And the next day, that was that.
00:23:37 October was told, "You're not distributing this movie anymore."
00:23:40 So, we cobbled together a distribution company.
00:23:45 I made the movie with Good Machine, which was James Shamus and Ted Hope and David Lindy.
00:23:49 And we, you know, hired various folks to help us.
00:23:54 And one of whom, by the way, was Bob Birney, you know, who went on to become one of the most,
00:23:59 you know, successful--the distributor of--is it still the most successful independent film?
00:24:04 My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
00:24:05 One of them.
00:24:07 And I think he had a hand in the--maybe, did he have a hand in The Passion of the Christ also?
00:24:12 Yes, he did.
00:24:13 So--
00:24:14 That was a big one.
00:24:14 Anyway, so we did our best and the movie got out there.
00:24:20 It's about to finally, I believe, get its Criterion release,
00:24:27 which, you know, Todd is obviously very happy about.
00:24:29 Wow, nice.
00:24:30 Now, you know, I was at Cannes and Johnny Depp came and he--for his movie, Jean Du Barry.
00:24:38 And I just kind of was a little dismayed because all the questions from journalists
00:24:44 and journalists from the U.S., largely, it's like they became this pearl-clutching bunch looking for--
00:24:52 maybe for clickbait.
00:24:54 But it made me wonder, you know,
00:24:58 this happens all the time now with Me Too, Todd, stars or directors.
00:25:02 How would Happiness have fared today or Superstar in terms of
00:25:06 being able to find financing and a theatrical release?
00:25:10 Well, I mean, the fact that Happiness was basically a studio film until it wasn't,
00:25:18 you know, I mean, that's sort of the answer right there.
00:25:23 I mean, you know, it's hard for me to totally wrap my head around,
00:25:30 like, could you have made X film today?
00:25:32 Because my answer is, but I'm not.
00:25:35 I'm not making that film today.
00:25:36 I made it then.
00:25:37 And, you know, it was a different cultural climate.
00:25:41 And those, you know, I feel that climate shifting under our feet all the time.
00:25:46 So, you know, I understand what you're saying.
00:25:51 It is, I guess the response is, well, thank God I wasn't trying to make it today.
00:25:56 And it's out there and it lives no matter what people think.
00:25:58 How do you adapt to that shifting cultural climate?
00:26:03 I think we just, you know, every time we decide to come on board a movie,
00:26:11 whether it's in the script phase, an article, a book, whatever it is,
00:26:17 we always have to sort of plan out its path to makeability, you know?
00:26:23 And if it's something, I mean, May, December is a good example,
00:26:27 because that is not easy subject matter.
00:26:29 And it was a script that scared people.
00:26:32 So, you know, on the one hand, you've got a class,
00:26:36 you know, world-class filmmaker, and you've got, you know, extraordinary actors.
00:26:40 But on the other hand, you have subject matter that some distributors simply won't touch.
00:26:47 So, we have to sort of add up both, you know, column A and column B,
00:26:52 and find that skinny little way forward, which usually, you know,
00:26:58 involves and make it for as little as you can.
00:27:00 So, you know, you're entitled at this point in the run to choose your battles,
00:27:05 but it doesn't sound like any of this stuff prompts you to say, we can't get this done.
00:27:12 I mean, there are things that we look at that we just, that we will sometimes say,
00:27:18 that's too hard.
00:27:20 That has usually, though, it's less about the subject matter
00:27:24 than it is maybe about, you know, the inexperience of that director,
00:27:28 making us feel like they're not going to be able to attract
00:27:31 a level of cast that would get it done.
00:27:34 Sometimes we can overcome that, and sometimes we can't.
00:27:40 Sometimes it's just the expense of, you know, sometimes it's a movie that is simply too big
00:27:46 for its subject matter and its potential audience.
00:27:50 That's usually when we say that that might be too hard.
00:27:54 But if we really believe in something, we really go headlong into it.
00:28:00 Well, now, another terrific film with difficult subject matter was "Boys Don't Cry,"
00:28:07 and Hilary Swank played Brandon Tina, a young woman who posed as a man
00:28:12 and ended up being brutalized and murdered by her friends who discovered her secret.
00:28:17 How hard was it to get that film made?
00:28:21 And what was your best memory of watching Hilary win the Oscar?
00:28:25 I mean, my best memory of watching Hilary win the Oscar was watching Hilary win the Oscar.
00:28:34 That, you know, weâthat movie, actually, we met Kim Pierce when she was still a student
00:28:42 at Columbia University in the graduate program, and she was making a student film about the case,
00:28:50 which was just starting to unfold.
00:28:54 Brandon was dead, obviously, already. He'd already been murdered.
00:28:57 And there'd been a few articles written about it.
00:29:01 Remember, this was pre-internet, so we would read what weâyou know,
00:29:04 I think "The Village Voice" wrote a big piece on the case.
00:29:08 And it took us a long time.
00:29:12 Kim went back to the script.
00:29:14 She actually went to Nebraska and sat in on the trials of the murderers,
00:29:21 learned a lot about Brandon's life and the people in his life.
00:29:24 And all of that, I think, just, you know, that was one of those cases where the delay
00:29:30 actually made the script better, you know, because she was able toâshe matured.
00:29:38 She was able to access more information that gave the script
00:29:41 the texture and the nuance that it needed.
00:29:43 At, you know, the search for, you know, for the actor was enormous.
00:29:52 And really, I feel like we saw everybody in the world.
00:29:58 But there was alsoâwe had a sort of freedom at the time.
00:30:02 The film was being financed by John Hart and Jeff Sharp, who we'd worked with on "Safe."
00:30:12 And they did a film a year or two later called "You Can Count on Me"
00:30:17 with Mark Ruffalo and Laura Liddy.
00:30:19 But they thought they were going to do it that year.
00:30:21 And I think Mark Ruffalo or Laura had a schedule conflict.
00:30:27 So I knew that they had this money set aside.
00:30:31 And I went in and said, "It's your lucky day.
00:30:34 I have a movie that you can spend it on instead."
00:30:37 And they did.
00:30:38 And they gave us the freedom to really cast who we wanted as Brandon.
00:30:47 And I think one of something that was really important was that it be an actor with no baggage.
00:30:54 Now, it's hard to imagine that nobody knew who Hilary Swank was.
00:30:58 But at the time, nobody did.
00:30:59 She'd appeared, I think, in the last season of "90210" or something.
00:31:05 And I think "Karate Kid," right?
00:31:07 "Karate Kid 3."
00:31:08 Three, right.
00:31:09 So not even one or two.
00:31:12 So the fact that she could walk on screen and have the audience and the people in the town,
00:31:23 no one had any idea who she was, really was effective.
00:31:27 Wow.
00:31:29 Boy, that's something.
00:31:30 You know, now, aside from those, there was "Harmony," "Korinne's Movie," "Kids,"
00:31:35 which launched some terrific careers.
00:31:38 What is it about you that makes you run, not away, but towards films
00:31:45 that can spark outrage from this crucible crowd?
00:31:52 I think it's just about, you know, I want to produce the movies that I want to see.
00:31:59 And it is, you know, when somebody asks me my favorite part, it's inevitably,
00:32:06 you know, getting it out into the world.
00:32:10 Because, you know, one of the things I feel like producing in a lot of ways is like childbirth.
00:32:16 You have to forget about how difficult it is, or you would never do it again.
00:32:20 And sometimes I find myself on a film set, like on day one,
00:32:24 and I'm like, "Oh, right, I forgot. I hate this."
00:32:27 Like, now it's gonna be another like six weeks of like, you know,
00:32:33 misery and no trailer and, you know, bad coffee, etc.
00:32:39 And then I forget about it.
00:32:42 So when I take one of those movies out into the world,
00:32:46 and I see the effect that it has on an audience, it's really, you know, that's what it's all about.
00:32:53 Well, now, what movie would you say was the most difficult film to mount and get backing for?
00:33:02 And how did you overcome it?
00:33:04 You know, they all have their own little like personal, you know, every movie is a kind of war
00:33:13 story. And, you know, it kind of reminds me, like, if you ever are in a location van,
00:33:20 you know, with a bunch of, you know, with a DP and their team of grips, electrics, etc.
00:33:26 You know, the conversation often turns into like, how hard it was on the last movie,
00:33:32 and, you know, to get the shot to do this, to do that.
00:33:34 And those stories always end with, "But we did it," you know.
00:33:40 And I feel the same way about the filmography, they almost always end with, "But somehow, some
00:33:46 way." You know, I would say two of Todd Haynes's movies come to mind. One was "Safe," which was a
00:33:54 really, it was a really difficult film to, quote, "pitch," you know, because it was kind of a horror
00:34:04 movie, but it wasn't a horror movie. And Julianne was starting her rise, but she was still, you
00:34:13 know, had worked primarily in soaps, and she was in the new Altman movie, but it hadn't come out
00:34:18 yet. So there was just a lot of things that we had to kind of navigate. And there wasn't anything in
00:34:24 Todd's previous work that, you know, which is the thing I love about Todd, he never makes the same
00:34:30 film twice. But that one was really tough to get the financing for. And the other was "I'm Not There,"
00:34:38 the Dillon movie was just like, insanely ambitious. Insanely ambitious, like five different time
00:34:44 periods, you know, seven different superstars. It was just, it was crazy.
00:34:50 - Of multiple genders.
00:34:51 - Correct.
00:34:53 - Yeah, that's amazing. Cate Blanchett, kind of, she really popped in that one.
00:34:59 - Yes.
00:35:00 - And, you know, now, you know, how much do you sometimes look at the movies that make a lot of
00:35:08 money in Hollywood and go, "Why can't I be that person who makes movies where we dress the cast
00:35:14 in spandex and save the world, and I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams?"
00:35:19 - But I mean, why would anyone have me do that? I mean, it's just not, you know, it's, I don't,
00:35:27 honestly, that's not where my fantasies go. You know, I'm like, I think it would be really great
00:35:33 if one of the movies I made made a lot of money. And some of them have, you know. But I don't,
00:35:42 I mean, I'm not well suited to do a Marvel movie.
00:35:45 - Why is that?
00:35:46 - I just think it's just not where, I'm just not that interested.
00:35:52 - Well, you know, you get a lot out of a little when it comes to budget.
00:35:58 But have you ever wondered what you might squeeze out with a mainstream film and $100 million budget?
00:36:06 Like the indie filmmaker Greta Gerwig is about to find out with Barbie. You know, many producers
00:36:14 who started in your sandbox have graduated to that.
00:36:18 - But I mean, I don't know if I would call it graduation, because that makes it sound like,
00:36:24 you know, that I'm still in third grade. And I'm not, goddammit.
00:36:30 I guess the real answer is, if a filmmaker came to me with a $100 million idea,
00:36:41 then of course I'd do it. If it was something, you know, I mean, I'm just, I don't mean to say,
00:36:47 I mean, a budget's a budget. I think, you know, with a bigger budget comes more responsibility
00:36:53 to a certain degree. But any movie we make, whether we make it for 30 million or 3 million,
00:36:59 somebody's putting money in it because they want it back. You know, no one's doing it out of the
00:37:05 goodness of their heart, you know. They're doing it because they think it's an investment. And
00:37:09 there's that, you know, sometimes that 3 million to that investor is as much as the 30 million is
00:37:16 to the other investor. You know what I mean? You can't really split those hairs. So that
00:37:22 responsibility is enormous, no matter how much money it is. But yeah, you know, if Todd or Celine
00:37:30 came to me and said, you know, I have this brilliant idea, and it's an idea that is going
00:37:37 to cost this kind of dough, we would absolutely get behind it. I see. Now, is there a dream project
00:37:45 that you've had percolating and haven't gotten up yet, but you can't let go of?
00:37:51 I really want to do something about the 80s in New York. And I feel like everything I've seen
00:37:59 hasn't gotten it right. And I'm not quite sure, you know, I would say the 80s bleeding into the
00:38:08 90s, that period in New York City, which was a time of extraordinary, you know, the extraordinary
00:38:15 collision of art and music and fashion and cinema, but also the time of the AIDS crisis. And it was
00:38:23 just, it was just such an insane, an insane time to be there. And I just haven't found the right
00:38:30 story. Wow, boy, that sounds that sounds like quite a world. Let's say young woman or man who
00:38:37 loves the kind of movies you make, wanted to become wanted to become what you are, what's the
00:38:44 best piece of advice you could give? And what's the hardest thing facing that young person versus
00:38:50 the satisfaction of making movies that reflect a bit of who you are and what your sensibilities are?
00:38:57 Um, I think, you know, the advice I give, you know, I teach in the graduate program at Stony Brook
00:39:05 in New York City. It's a state university. And the advice I give my students is, first off,
00:39:17 I think there's a lot of different ways to be creative in this business. There's, of course,
00:39:23 there's writing, directing, producing, but there's all different ways, all kinds of different ways
00:39:29 into the business on both sides of the camera that that are worth exploring. And I think it's
00:39:37 really important to, to kind of seize any opportunity. I, I feel like a lot of people
00:39:46 trying to break into the business have gotten very specific about what what is the path. And
00:39:53 I try to say like, you know, the path is really like, I didn't really get into film until my late
00:39:58 20s. Because I just, you know, I just wanted to support myself and, and, and, you know,
00:40:05 my first few years out of college, I was a proofreader. And I would probably if they hadn't
00:40:10 figured out that we weren't really doing anything, I'd probably still be a proofreader, because it
00:40:15 was such a fun job, you know. And I think that, you know, walking through those doors that open
00:40:22 for you is really, really critical. And, you know, I, I can't, I get asked a lot, how did you do it
00:40:32 so that, you know, so that I can copy how you did it, but it was a different time. I think that
00:40:38 getting into producing usually comes, you usually start in production, in distribution, in finance,
00:40:45 or in development. I think those are the four ways, right? I might be leaving one out.
00:40:51 But so there's a lot of different ways to come into it. And there, and there's no correct way.
00:40:57 Yeah, when, when young people come to me and say, I want to be in journalism, how do you do it? You
00:41:03 know, there's, and part of me, it was a better racket when I started, you know. But then I just
00:41:11 look at them. And I kind of just hope that the youthful energy ought to be able to overcome
00:41:18 and adapt to whatever the reality of, of journalism is now. And I would imagine probably,
00:41:26 are you as optimistic about, about young people in the future of the film business, despite
00:41:33 the fact that we're, we're in this strike mode and hopeful that SAG will make a deal and put
00:41:40 people back to work, work before, before too much damage is inflicted?
00:41:45 I mean, that's kind of two different questions. And I mean, one of the ways in which Killer
00:41:52 Operates is, you know, we really, our whole office is very young people. We, we tend, we bring people
00:42:02 in, you know, we give them a tremendous amount of responsibility. And, and then, you know, at a
00:42:10 certain point, they leave us and go on to become much more successful than we are. And it works for
00:42:16 us because it lets us mentor people, but it also means there's a constant influx of new ideas and
00:42:22 energy. And, and most of the people that are there at Killer, you know, we're not a big company,
00:42:30 there's me and Pam and four other people. But the people that are there have a passion for the kinds
00:42:37 of stories we want to tell. That's really, you know, invigorating and, and, and a huge cause
00:42:44 for optimism. As far as, you know, what's, what's happening immediately, the road ahead,
00:42:49 you know, I mean, I remember the 2008 strike and how devastating that was. It was, you know,
00:42:57 Killer barely got out of it, you know, intact. I really, you know, my concern is, you know,
00:43:06 you know, I know a lot of young writers, how hard it is for them, especially the ones who are just
00:43:12 getting their careers started, which of course I say all of this, you know, knowing, you know,
00:43:18 that most of the demands on the table are, are, are, are right. And, and we have to, you know,
00:43:24 the, the, the streamers do have to, you know, look, they've upended the business so much and
00:43:29 they've got to, they've got to make it right. Yeah. But you know what you just said about
00:43:35 instead of getting mad when a young person with potential leaves and instead looking at it,
00:43:41 at it as an opportunity to kind of nurture and serve the ecosystem. That's the, that's the reason
00:43:48 why I feel that the writers have their best case aside from the stuff about AI, you know, you cut
00:43:55 these, you, you know, you, you keep trimming the number of writers and you, you, you, you, you know,
00:44:02 you're basically stunting the growth of the industry going forward. How do you come out
00:44:08 on this whole writer's guilt thing? I mean, come out on it, like,
00:44:13 how are you feeling about it? Do you do, you know, would you go out there with a picket sign?
00:44:20 Would you have to kind of just sort of, I don't know. I think, you know, obviously Killer supports
00:44:26 the writers. I mean, you know, we're in a position where, I mean, we're not part of the bargaining,
00:44:33 you know, the collective bargaining where we're just, you know, we're, we have no power whatsoever.
00:44:38 You know, we have made it our business though, as a company to be, you know, supportive of
00:44:46 writers in every way possible, writer directors, nurturing new talent. We've helped a lot of
00:44:53 writers get their first breaks, et cetera. And so, you know, our position is obviously
00:45:00 completely and utterly supportive. Right. You know what, I, I want to leave a little bit of time
00:45:07 I see a lot of young faces in here and I would imagine you probably have some questions.
00:45:13 So why don't we hear from you guys a little bit? Anybody got anything you want to ask this iconic
00:45:20 person here? Not me, her. Yes, right there. Hello, thank you. We've spoken a lot, oh, you guys have
00:45:32 spoken a lot today about the situation, I mean, from an American perspective and from an American
00:45:37 point of view, I'd be quite interested in hearing your opinions and point of views for European
00:45:43 producers who mainly have to work with government funding or institutions and how you, I mean, I
00:45:54 don't want to ask how would you have done it in Europe, but is it, is it very different and what
00:45:59 are your opinions on the difference between the two modes? I mean, I certainly couldn't answer
00:46:06 the question of how I would do it in Europe because I, you know, I'm not a European producer,
00:46:10 but we do work in Europe a lot. And I speak, I speak like this in a lot of different territories,
00:46:18 a lot of different countries. And I know there's many American filmmakers who are very envious
00:46:24 of the systems that are in place in Europe where, you know, filmmakers, their films are subsidized
00:46:32 to a degree that, you know, many American filmmakers, as I said, you know, think like,
00:46:38 why isn't, why can't that happen here? What I do think though, is the, the system of no subsidy
00:46:46 in the US, although I could argue that our tax breaks are a little bit subsidies that, because
00:46:52 those, when I started out, those were non-existent, but now, as I'm sure many of you know, the same
00:46:57 way you get tax breaks in various, you know, for shooting in various countries, we get them for
00:47:02 shooting in various states and it tends to be part of our financing plan. But I do think what it
00:47:08 forces American filmmakers to do is consider their audience at every turn. And I do find that makes
00:47:16 for a more lively film culture, in my opinion. I have spoken to some European filmmakers and
00:47:23 producers, or I should say directors and producers who have said to me, well, I don't need to care
00:47:31 about what the audience thinks, which is really anathema to me, because I may make movies that
00:47:38 seem, you know, difficult or, or what have you, but I am well aware of who the audience for them
00:47:46 is and it's all about making sure that we get that audience to the table. So, you know, I, I think
00:47:53 it's, it's, it's different systems and they both have their pluses and their minuses.
00:47:59 And yes, this gentleman over here. I'll just wait. Sure.
00:48:05 - I'm curious about what, how much importance you as a producer attach to the title of a film.
00:48:16 I know for myself as a spectator, it's one of the driving forces to make me go and see a movie.
00:48:23 And I just wondered if you agonize about a title, if long titles are bad things,
00:48:29 if short titles are best.
00:48:30 - You know, so many of our movies come with a title kind of baked in. And when they don't,
00:48:40 absolutely we agonize. Now, "Boys Don't Cry" had a different title. The original title was
00:48:48 "Take It Like a Man." And a few months before, when the movie was in post-production,
00:48:57 we got a cease and desist letter from, I can't even remember from who, but there was a company
00:49:06 that was turning Boy George's memoir, which was called "Take It Like a Man" into a movie.
00:49:13 And they had, I guess, had copyrighted the title, whatever. It turned out that we couldn't use that
00:49:20 title. And Kim was devastated. She was just like, "There is no other title in the world that will
00:49:27 work." And we were pretty devastated too. I mean, we'd been calling it, "Take It Like a Man" from
00:49:34 the get-go. And we finally came up with "Boys Don't Cry." And at the time, we all were a little
00:49:40 like, "That's such a come down." And now, I can't imagine the movie being called anything else.
00:49:51 So, at some point, I guess a title just takes hold and that's it. I don't disagree with you
00:50:02 that a bad title though can really... I would say, "You sing loud, I sing louder." Even though
00:50:10 that's out there, I go with a short title usually. I remember that happening with John Carney's movie.
00:50:18 Harvey Weinstein retitled it "Begin Again," but the title was, when people in Toronto loved it,
00:50:27 was "Can a Song Save Your Life," which just was the perfect title.
00:50:32 - That's right. I forgot about that.
00:50:34 - And I just was like, "What are you thinking?" Right? Yeah. So, let's see. How about you?
00:50:39 Yes.
00:50:43 - Thank you. Yeah. We are speaking about futures movies, which is no doubt is profitable. And can
00:50:53 we say about documentary movies, it can be profitable or how it's going on?
00:50:57 - I mean, right now, I think documentaries are, at least in the US, they're doing gangbusters. I
00:51:04 mean, I think... And Mike, you may have a slightly different view on this, but I actually think
00:51:09 during the pandemic, when we were all stuck at home, there was sort of a renaissance of documentary.
00:51:17 - It's the best I've ever seen it. And I mean, what these documentary makers go through to get
00:51:25 these, especially time-lapse type films, it's just... They've always done it that way. Like,
00:51:34 you remember "Hoop Dreams," and what are the odds that that movie would have turned out so great
00:51:39 following these two kids? But now documentaries are paying and people are coming to see them.
00:51:49 And I think it's just wonderful. I think it's a long overdue renaissance for those kind of movies,
00:51:58 which are some of the best movies that are being made right now, I think. And I also think that
00:52:05 the streamers in that regard have helped because so many people get to see movies that at one point
00:52:12 in time, nobody saw, except for hardcore fans. You over there. You. -
00:52:23 Hi, fantastic chat. I'd like to ask about trends. So for producers producing documentary films,
00:52:34 I'm one of them. I'd like to ask your opinion about the recent trends, for example, specific
00:52:41 cases, using a famous person, someone like, for example, Arnold, that documentary, globally famous
00:52:48 name, as opposed to someone who's totally unknown, which is the most popular, the best direction to
00:52:55 take in terms of niche versus mass, mass audience that is. So it's a very niche film, so let's say,
00:53:02 focusing on the tech startup industry, but the mass theme of success versus failure and so on.
00:53:08 So do you take a niche approach, but make it appeal to mass audiences? And there's many
00:53:14 other areas I won't go into now, but your general opinion on the trends for documentary films.
00:53:20 Thanks a lot. - I mean, honestly, I can only answer as a spectator because we don't make that many
00:53:26 documentaries. I mean, you know, for a company that doesn't make documentaries, Killer probably
00:53:31 does make a fair amount, but they're usually director driven. I mean, we made Velvet Underground
00:53:38 because that came to Todd and he saw it as a challenge, but I rarely initiate documentaries.
00:53:46 But what you're saying, go niche and with wide appeal is pretty much the formula for everything.
00:53:55 - Yeah, as you know, you mentioned the Arnold documentary and I watched it recently in
00:54:02 the third episode, the media focused specifically on him copying to the fact that he was inappropriate
00:54:11 at times, but what was lost in it was when he was the governor of California, he was a Republican
00:54:18 and his relative, Robert Kennedy Jr. turned him on to environmentalism and he basically made it
00:54:27 his mission to spread that and also to work with people on the other side of the aisle. He made a
00:54:35 Democrat, his chief of staff, he got a lot of things done and I was kind of disappointed that
00:54:40 people didn't really recognize that that's exactly what's lacking in politics in America. It's so
00:54:47 polarized, it's not even about helping people as much as it is being a party lackey in my opinion.
00:54:56 But so I thought that documentary was pretty good, but I guess there's room for everything. Yes,
00:55:02 you over there. - Hi there, hi Christine. I read about you in the Peter Biskin book about the 90s,
00:55:11 Miramax, October and so on. It was very obvious in that book that that was a time where everybody
00:55:18 felt like, oh there's money to be made in independent film and every producer felt like,
00:55:25 you know, there's obvious money to be attracted in this high profile, high risk, high reward
00:55:31 business. How do you now find money, chase after money when it's not so obvious there's money to
00:55:38 be made? - I mean, I think it's, I don't know if it was more obvious then and less obvious now. I
00:55:45 think, you know, we pretty, I'm a little amazed at how little it has changed the way we finance
00:55:53 films. We often still use that model of, you know, a foreign sales component, an equity component,
00:56:04 often equity against, you know, a US sale, tax credits, bank loans against the foreign sales
00:56:13 component. I mean, you know, I could bore everybody to death for the next three hours explaining all
00:56:19 of this, including myself, but I think every, I feel like every couple of weeks there's a new
00:56:29 investor comes in who has, you know, either money they've made themselves, money that they've
00:56:37 inherited that they want to put into movies and they usually come in with a sense of like,
00:56:45 well everyone else has been doing it wrong and I know the right way to do it and when we are lucky
00:56:53 enough to get into business with these people, we really try to protect their investments and them
00:57:00 because there's a lot of charlatans out there and it doesn't take much for one of those investors
00:57:06 to be like, you know what, like forget this, I'm going to take my money and go put it somewhere
00:57:11 else. So I think that that sense hasn't changed that much. There are people with money who want
00:57:19 to be in the entertainment business for whatever reason. Sometimes it's because they do think
00:57:24 they can figure out how to make a lot of money doing it and sometimes it is at least partially
00:57:30 because they have a passion for that kind of storytelling and they have the means to really,
00:57:36 you know, make that passion a reality. Yeah, a lot of them leave with lightened wallets though.
00:57:42 Indeed. Let's see, oh right here.
00:57:48 Thank you for being the person, glass half full about cinema going. I share that feeling. I also
00:58:00 live in New York and I'm always excited to see young audiences, especially in all these art
00:58:07 houses and maybe a little different story outside of New York, but that's not related to my question.
00:58:14 My question is, you didn't really say much about how you actually ended up being a producer. You
00:58:19 said that opportunity happened and I would like to hear more about that. I mean, the first movie
00:58:29 I produced was Poison, Todd Haynes's first feature film and that really did come about from seeing
00:58:38 Superstar, getting to work on it a little bit with Todd and having a sense of like, okay, I have
00:58:45 really met, I really have somebody in my life who is this talented and I just had a kind of innate
00:58:54 feeling that I wanted to build a relationship with him. Before that, I had worked on movies
00:59:01 in various capacities in production as an assistant director, a location manager,
00:59:06 mostly in production. So I had a sense of how a film set worked and while doing that, I did start
00:59:16 to realize that there was a person or a couple of people who were thinking not just about the
00:59:25 health of the production, but were also thinking about what was going to happen to the movie when
00:59:31 it was done. And they were thinking ahead in leaps and bounds in ways that were really interesting to
00:59:37 me. Now, when we made Poison, we financed it with investors, some of whom had the same last name as
00:59:44 the director, but not only. And the movie actually turned out to be profitable. It went to the
00:59:54 Sundance Film Festival, it won the grand jury prize, and I was a little like, how hard can this be?
00:59:59 And then I didn't win it again. I've won it once with a documentary, but I've never won it again
01:00:07 with a narrative film. So there you go. And in some ways, producing Poison, I had no idea how
01:00:15 difficult it was. So I wasn't scared. Sometimes ignorance can be a real best friend. Once I did
01:00:25 that, I started to understand not just how you put financing together and what a budget translates
01:00:38 into what you can actually do, but I started to understand because Poison was a film that was
01:00:44 considered an LGBTQ film. It was considered a gay movie. And I realized that there was an audience
01:00:53 out there that was so desperate to see themselves on screen that they would show up. And they showed
01:01:00 up in droves for Poison. And it broke records at the Angelica, the movie theater in downtown New
01:01:07 York, that actually stayed as their records for years. And I started to think to myself, you know
01:01:15 what? This audience needs movies. And if I make them for the right price, they don't have to
01:01:23 swing over to any other kind of audience. They can just be for this audience.
01:01:27 All right. We have to call a wrap here. I want to thank Christine for being so generous and
01:01:35 sharing her experiences. And thanks to all of you for listening. We appreciate it.