Former prisoners have described a system failure in Australia where almost half of those released return to prison within two years. Analysis by the University of New South Wales show people who inject drugs are most at risk and the experiences within the first day or two of release can have a huge effect on the outcome.
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00:00 I guess the main thing that people suffer from when they get released is a misunderstanding
00:06 of the conditions that they've come from. It's like living in your bathroom for five
00:11 years with someone else and then having access to your backyard and then getting released
00:16 back into the community with the expectation that you're going to cope. So I think the
00:20 services that exist are great for people who probably don't have issues like the health
00:25 service, the medical service and things like that. But for people coming from that environment,
00:30 I think they really struggle because I think there's a really deep misunderstanding of
00:34 the issues that people are actually facing and what happens in the transition period.
00:39 And you mentioned that first day or two, that can be unbelievably overwhelming for someone
00:45 who has been in those conditions for years at a time. So to come out and then have this
00:50 expectation you're just going to adapt straight away, it's really quite overwhelming for people
00:56 and they don't cope at all very well.
00:59 Yeah, I think when I read that the first day or two, that was really striking to me. It's
01:03 something I hadn't thought about. And also when ex-prisoners described just the sheer
01:07 exhaustion of re-entering the real world, was that your experience as well?
01:12 Yeah, it's really hard work. Like I was released from prison on a Wednesday and I ended up
01:16 back in court on a Friday because what I knew to do was to go and then continue to medicate
01:22 the pain that I was in. I come from a very traumatic background. I had a very self-destructive
01:27 drug addiction. I had a lot of self-hatred and a lot of those things, they weren't addressed
01:33 in custody. And I guess they are today to a certain extent, but I think there's still
01:37 a deep misunderstanding of what people do go through. And also too, the jail actually
01:44 sets up a bit of a false self-esteem for people because all the conditions are created externally.
01:50 So the structure, the discipline, the routine, but the inner world of that person actually
01:56 doesn't really get addressed that much. So you can become good prisoners, but our job
02:01 really is, well, corrections job really should be to create good neighbours. And doing that
02:07 in those environments, when you look at the pictures on the screen now, it's like how
02:11 do you support someone or prepare someone to come back into the community when you look
02:15 at those conditions?
02:16 Yeah. And Andrew, I mean, despite all those challenges, though, you were a success story
02:21 in this. 38 years clean. Now you work in the system helping people. So what did help you
02:28 after your release?
02:29 Well, I actually avoided the health system. The reason I got to where I am today is through
02:37 people that had been through the experience themselves and people that had actually gone
02:43 through chronic drug addiction, that had gone through being incarcerated and then have worked
02:48 with each other to actually get themselves on their feet. And I think for me to have
02:53 that understanding was probably the most important thing in my life because I'd always felt
02:57 misunderstood. I'd always felt like an outcast. I always felt like I didn't belong. But then
03:01 I walked into a peer group of people that had been before me. They were there and they
03:07 were able to actually guide me through that process where, you know, if I went to a psychologist
03:13 or a psychiatrist or a GP, I think they mean well and they had a lot of information. They
03:18 had a lot of education around that. But I think that deep understanding and that connection
03:22 was the thing that I really needed. And I think that's the thing that's missing in the
03:28 field. And I think that's something that we could probably get a lot better at. So where
03:33 people that end up in custody generally don't come from good places. They don't come from
03:37 well adjusted, good situations. They come from traumatic backgrounds and they come from
03:42 quite dysfunctional backgrounds. So we're not working with the sort of wounded well.
03:50 We're deeply traumatised people.
03:52 Yeah. And I mean, you're an example of someone who has experience that can help people. But
03:56 I guess that's in the system. And if you can talk to how many people like you have that
04:01 lived experience and how important it is. But also, I guess, I mean, correct me if I'm
04:06 wrong, but you wouldn't have the contact after those people leave, I take it.
04:10 No, very rarely. I did work in a program in Long Bay where we had people would actually
04:16 we did have follow up and we did have support groups following people leaving that program
04:21 that I worked in in Long Bay, but that's since closed. So I'm not sure if that that follow
04:26 up exists anymore. Like I'm in a different area now. So I'm not 100 percent sure what
04:32 is happening now within within corrections in the city. But even though here with adding
04:36 rural areas, you know, it's very difficult. And I worked in Broken Hill Jail for 18 months.
04:42 And basically it's the same group of people that are just constantly there. So, you know,
04:48 those conditions to support them once they get out, there's a lot of money goes into
04:50 getting people in prison. But it's very lacking to actually support people when they come
04:55 out of prison.
04:56 And when you see people return, if it's, you know, as the studies show, it's often within
05:01 that two year period. Are you able to have conversations with them? Are they able to
05:05 articulate to you exactly what they found so difficult and how they feel upon being
05:10 returned to prison?
05:11 Generally, most people like they they're just just overwhelming for them, you know, and
05:18 they find, you know, they they want to get help or they want to go into further services
05:22 and there's long waiting lists for different services. There's you know, there's going
05:26 back into, you know, maybe family situations that have been quite dysfunctional and haven't
05:30 been quite supportive of them.
05:32 And there's a there's a big system that people go back into. And and sometimes we need we
05:37 neglect to look at the system that people are coming from. And and if you don't have,
05:42 you know, a set of conditions to support people to take the next step, they just go back into
05:47 the old system. And that's the system they acted out from in the first place.
05:51 So it's almost like a relief for some people to come back into custody because, you know,
05:56 the responsibility of living out in the world without the internal resources is too much
06:01 for them. So to come back, they they don't want to be there. No one wants to be in prison,
06:06 but it's almost preferable to what they have to deal with when they're out in the community.
06:10 Yeah. And where do you think the most meaningful change could be made right now?
06:14 I just think we need to change the the one, the physical environments of the, you know,
06:20 maybe look at, you know, build jails that aren't that that aren't concrete blocks that
06:25 you probably, you know, really we shouldn't be housing human beings in and maybe, you
06:30 know, maybe trial building a secure village where we can actually teach people how to
06:33 live, where we can teach people how to have good relationships. We can teach people how
06:36 to actually reintegrate back into themselves, because that's where the issues are. The issues
06:41 are within the person, you know, like society isn't going to change, but we can't change
06:45 the whole of society. But we can create conditions where the person can change within themselves,
06:50 have better self-worth, have a better self-respect, have a better self-esteem, not just come in
06:55 because people come into custody and what they do is they learn to comply and they learn
06:59 to become good prisoners so that I get in trouble and I get an easy ride. They actually
07:03 don't learn to have that transformation within themselves.
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