'Accidental rentals and garden dreams'
In the first episode of The Scotsman's Property Podcast in association with D. J. Alexander, our host, The Scotsman's Property Editor, Kirsty McLuckie: speaks with David Alexander, CEO of D. J. Alexander about changes happening in the rental market for both Landlords and tenants, chats with Paul Hilton, CEO of ESPC to get his views on the current housing market and catches up with Edinburgh based garden designer Lisa Lempsink to better understand the value a garden redesign can add to the price of your home and the quality of your life.
In the first episode of The Scotsman's Property Podcast in association with D. J. Alexander, our host, The Scotsman's Property Editor, Kirsty McLuckie: speaks with David Alexander, CEO of D. J. Alexander about changes happening in the rental market for both Landlords and tenants, chats with Paul Hilton, CEO of ESPC to get his views on the current housing market and catches up with Edinburgh based garden designer Lisa Lempsink to better understand the value a garden redesign can add to the price of your home and the quality of your life.
Category
đź—ž
NewsTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Hello, and welcome to the inaugural
00:05 Scotsman Property Podcast,
00:06 the first of a monthly series,
00:09 which is part of a paid partnership
00:10 with letting specialist DJ Alexander.
00:13 I'm Kirsty McLuckie, the Scotsman's property editor,
00:16 and over the following months,
00:18 we're going to be using these podcasts
00:20 to highlight all aspects of property,
00:23 from the knotty subjects of house prices,
00:25 to the rises and hopefully falls in mortgage rates,
00:29 and what to expect from the rental market.
00:32 But we'll also be looking for some advice
00:34 on the latest trends and gadgets,
00:36 getting some interior design tips,
00:39 and checking out some hacks
00:40 to make running your home more affordable.
00:43 For this edition, we're going to be taking a look
00:45 at the changes happening in the rental market
00:47 for both landlords and tenants.
00:50 We'll be asking the CEO of ESPC
00:52 for his take on the current housing market,
00:55 and we'll be getting some advice on garden redesigns
00:58 and the value they can add to the price of your home
01:01 and to the quality of your life.
01:03 But now I'd like to introduce my first guest,
01:05 David Alexander, the CEO of DJ Alexander.
01:08 David, welcome to the podcast.
01:10 Would you like to tell us a little bit about the firm?
01:13 - Well, good morning, Kirsty.
01:14 And firstly, thank you very much for having me
01:17 on the initial podcast.
01:22 It's much appreciated.
01:23 I currently run the DJ Alexander business
01:27 that covers Scotland, which runs from Peterhead,
01:31 St. Andrews, Glasgow, and Edinburgh.
01:35 We currently manage just under 10,000
01:39 residential properties,
01:41 and we also have an estate agency part of the business
01:44 that covers the North and Central Scotland.
01:48 So as you can imagine, every day has its challenges,
01:52 but it's been a fantastic business for me personally,
01:55 and I enjoy every minute of it.
01:58 - And before we get onto the serious questions
02:01 on the rental market, can I ask, dare I ask,
02:04 how long you've worked in the property
02:06 and how you got started?
02:08 - Well, Kirsty, that's a fascinating question
02:10 because when I look back over the 42 years
02:15 that I've been in the business, which spans five decades,
02:19 I actually got into the rental business by mistake.
02:24 I set the business up in 1982
02:27 as an estate agency business
02:29 down at number 35, the Shore and Leith.
02:31 It was tough.
02:33 It was difficult times.
02:35 And people that are old enough to remember the early '80s,
02:38 the property market was difficult.
02:40 Things we really struggled to sell.
02:42 There was a property we had at 9 Warrandor Park Terrace.
02:49 It was a top floor flat.
02:50 It had four bedrooms, and believe it or not,
02:52 we couldn't sell that property for 35,000 pounds.
02:57 It was a fixed price, and we had no takers.
03:01 I mean, when you think about that in today's value,
03:04 it's probably somewhere in the region
03:05 of five to 600,000 pounds.
03:07 Anyway, in 1982, we struggled to sell that.
03:11 And the lady who lived in London asked me,
03:14 would I be kind enough to rent it for her
03:17 because we couldn't sell it?
03:20 And I explained we didn't do rental.
03:22 That wasn't something we did.
03:24 We were only state agents, so, you know, renting.
03:27 Anyway, she pleaded with me to say,
03:29 look, please just put an advert in the Scotsman,
03:32 find a tenant.
03:33 So she persuaded me to do it.
03:36 And that property changed the whole business
03:40 and the way it would move in the coming years.
03:45 We were inundated with phone calls.
03:47 So many people wanted to rent that apartment.
03:50 And I thought to myself,
03:51 maybe I've struck on something here.
03:54 So I spent the next few weeks and months
03:56 persuading other property owners who couldn't sell
03:59 that maybe we should look at renting.
04:01 So that's how it all started.
04:03 No university degrees, nothing of any great experience,
04:09 but one property at Nine Wonder Park Terrace started.
04:12 And as I say, now we've just got under 10,000.
04:15 So I've been fortunate to be at the right place
04:17 at the right time.
04:18 - You've mentioned one of the changes
04:20 that over the course of your career,
04:23 which is the huge rise in value in individual properties.
04:26 But what would you say the key changes
04:29 over those 42 years would be?
04:30 Can you pinpoint them?
04:32 - I think probably the biggest change was in 1988
04:36 when the UK and Scottish government decided to introduce
04:40 what was termed a short assured tenancy.
04:43 And that made it very easy for any professional
04:47 or amateur landlord to rent out a property.
04:50 There was no security of tenure.
04:52 And I mean by that, that the landlord didn't need to worry
04:56 about getting his property back
04:58 if there had been any issues.
04:59 So that undoubtedly changed the face
05:02 of residential letting in the UK
05:04 and especially in Scotland in 1988.
05:07 And that really started the whole drive
05:11 of the buy to let situation of people deciding
05:15 that property was a good asset class.
05:18 So we found many individual owners,
05:22 large companies buying properties
05:25 and offering them up to rent.
05:26 And of course, being in that,
05:29 being able to offer property management services
05:32 enabled the business to grow organically over the 40 years.
05:36 And that undoubtedly was the real key to the drive
05:40 and the change in the market and the growth in the market.
05:43 And that provided so many properties and filled the gap.
05:48 There was an acute shortage of housing
05:50 in all aspects in Scotland.
05:52 And with private landlords coming in and buying
05:56 and offering up, it certainly filled the gap.
05:58 But that is the real key change.
06:01 - And with that change,
06:03 would you say standards have improved?
06:06 - Undoubtedly standards have improved.
06:08 And quite rightly so.
06:10 We tried to change people's perception
06:14 way back in the early '80s.
06:15 If someone had bought a property to let,
06:18 it was a case of saying,
06:19 "Well, I'll stick my granny's old sofa in there
06:22 that she doesn't want to use anymore.
06:24 We'll put an old television in."
06:26 And that was completely the wrong way of looking at it.
06:30 We always approached it that the better the quality
06:33 of property, the better the quality of tenant.
06:35 So we tried to change the perception
06:38 that people, owners had of properties
06:40 that they were thinking of renting.
06:42 So the standards have improved greatly.
06:45 And certainly things that were regarded in the past
06:48 as luxuries are now regarded as necessities.
06:51 So standards have improved no end.
06:54 And I'm all for that.
06:56 I mean, really very beneficial to the tenants.
06:59 - I think anyone my age can absolutely recognise
07:02 what you're saying when you compare the sort of flat
07:05 that I rented when I was a student
07:07 to the sort of flats that my children rent as students.
07:10 And they've all got en suite bathrooms
07:12 and balconies and things like that.
07:14 And we have sticky carpets and stripped lighting,
07:17 but yeah, I absolutely get that.
07:19 But is it also legislation that's making
07:23 the industry better for tenants?
07:25 - Undoubtedly the legislation has improved
07:28 the market considerably.
07:30 And I campaigned long and hard for increased regulation
07:33 because improving the standards improves it for everyone.
07:37 And we were certainly in a situation
07:39 in the mid to late 80s that the legislation
07:44 was just not there.
07:45 And from a tenant paying a deposit
07:47 that the landlord would hold and regard as his money,
07:51 and tenants would struggle to get the money back
07:53 at the end of the tenancy,
07:54 to the quality of the units that you've mentioned,
07:56 all the legislation has improved the market greatly.
08:01 And I for one campaign long and hard for it to be improved.
08:06 And I'm delighted to see that over the last four decades,
08:09 five decades, that things have improved
08:13 and that's all beneficial.
08:15 And it creates a very professional, robust market,
08:18 which is beneficial to everybody.
08:19 - And we are reading predictions currently
08:24 about a mass exodus of these amateur landlords
08:28 from the market.
08:29 So is the demographic of buy to let owners changing again?
08:34 - Undoubtedly, the last few years have been difficult.
08:39 I mean, it's been very difficult.
08:41 The COVID coming in obviously created a situation
08:44 that there was very little movement in the market
08:46 and many people returned to their home countries,
08:49 many people returned to their family.
08:51 And we found a situation that, which was very unique,
08:55 that actually supply exceeded demand,
08:59 which is something in the last 15, 20 years
09:01 that we hadn't ever seen before.
09:03 But in everything, when people talk about rent controls,
09:07 supply and demand dictates where things will be.
09:10 And it was a classic example of,
09:13 there were less people to rent
09:14 and there were more properties.
09:15 So property rental prices actually fell.
09:20 Now, the difficulty that we're facing at the moment is,
09:23 we're faced with rising interest rates,
09:27 which have been 13 rate rises,
09:30 consecutive rate rises,
09:33 we're faced with a situation
09:34 that the Scottish government decided
09:36 that landlords couldn't increase the rent.
09:39 So you can understand that many landlords are thinking,
09:42 maybe this is the time to actually,
09:45 it's been a good market for me,
09:47 but maybe the time is now to get out.
09:50 And at the other end of the market coming in,
09:53 again, there's a very onerous burden
09:55 on any investor looking,
09:57 we've got a 6% additional dwelling tax
10:01 that we have to pay for anyone
10:03 who's looking to buy something.
10:04 So we've got a real imbalance at the moment.
10:07 We've got a scenario that many landlords
10:10 are deciding to leave,
10:12 but we don't have the same number of landlords
10:14 coming in at the other end.
10:15 So it's something that's a concern.
10:17 I'm sure it will resolve itself,
10:20 these things always do.
10:22 But certainly the demographics
10:24 and the volume of landlords coming in
10:26 has certainly dramatically changed in the last few years.
10:31 - And talking about that sales market,
10:34 I'd now like to bring in our second guest,
10:37 who is Paul Hilton, the CEO of ESPC.
10:42 Welcome, Paul.
10:43 - Hi, thanks for having me.
10:45 - Now, as we were just saying,
10:47 in the sales market,
10:48 it's been a bit of a roller coaster ride.
10:50 And I was going to say in the last few months,
10:52 but it's actually in the last few years.
10:54 So what are your member estate agents reporting
10:57 regarding the number of sales
10:59 and the direction of prices at the moment?
11:01 - Yeah, it's a really good question, Kirsty.
11:04 And you're quite right.
11:05 I think we've seen a real roller coaster
11:07 in the last couple of years.
11:08 It's been frenzied.
11:10 I think it's been unprecedented,
11:12 the market in '21 and '22.
11:15 I think things are calming down somewhat now.
11:18 I think those that were going to relocate,
11:20 those that were going to move have done so.
11:22 And we're back to what we would say
11:24 would be pre-pandemic levels.
11:26 To give you some indication,
11:27 just in terms of statistics around that,
11:30 if we look at our last house price report,
11:32 which covers the period April to June,
11:35 we are still reporting a small rise in house prices,
11:39 0.2%, which puts the average house value
11:42 for Edinburgh, Lothian, and Fife and Borders
11:45 at 280,286 pounds.
11:49 So, you know, despite the particularly gloomy headlines
11:52 out there that we're seeing on the national stage,
11:55 I think locally things are still pretty good.
11:57 What has changed is, as we've just discussed,
12:01 things are less frenzied.
12:02 So sales are down on last year, 12.9%.
12:06 So the volume of sales is less,
12:08 and listings are down 3.3%.
12:10 So again, as I said, we're back to 2019 levels.
12:15 Speed of sale is still pretty good.
12:17 Properties, the medium time to sell
12:18 is just a mere 20 days,
12:20 which indicates, you know, strength of the market there.
12:23 Last year, it was 13 days,
12:25 but there's a little bit more choice now.
12:27 We've probably got about 48% more properties
12:30 to choose from on ESPC.com than we had last year.
12:33 So therefore, buyers can take that a little bit longer.
12:37 But those properties that are selling
12:38 are still selling really well.
12:40 Four out of five are achieving the home report value
12:43 or higher, and the average premium that's being paid
12:46 is 103.3%.
12:49 So, you know, in summary, things have calmed a little.
12:52 We're back to 2019 levels,
12:54 but generally, I'd say the market is doing okay.
12:58 - And that calmness is something
13:00 that's probably welcomed by sellers as well as buyers,
13:03 because most sellers, you have to remember,
13:06 are probably also buyers.
13:08 And so this absolute frenzy of trying to get in
13:11 and win at a closing date,
13:14 when your own house is sold or whatever,
13:16 perhaps there's just the time for people to take a breath
13:19 and for the market to be less frenzied.
13:23 - I think you're absolutely right, Kirsty.
13:25 I think there's that buy at haste, regret at leisure.
13:28 You can get caught up in the offer's over bidding situation.
13:31 I'll be honest, I think our ESPC solicitor estate agents
13:34 are pleased it's become as well,
13:37 because, you know, the pressure,
13:39 we're just dealing with the volume of activity,
13:41 I'm sure it's the same for David and the Lattings market.
13:43 You know, it's very difficult to sustain that
13:45 for a prolonged period of time.
13:48 You know, everyone needs a break.
13:49 So yeah, I think we are probably
13:51 in a more manageable marketplace now, I think.
13:54 - And are there, within the regions that you covered,
13:59 are there hot spots, emerging hot spots?
14:01 Are there places where, you know, everyone wants to buy?
14:05 - I don't think there's a place
14:07 where everyone wants to buy.
14:08 I mean, as we know, there's markets within markets
14:12 and in the areas that we operate.
14:13 I think if we're looking at trends
14:16 and what we've seen in the last couple of years,
14:17 I would say we've seen a rise in the popularity
14:20 of the areas with city centre.
14:23 So in addition to, you know,
14:25 the perennial city centre, Stockbridge, et cetera,
14:28 we're seeing increased interest in the likes of Musselburgh,
14:32 East Lothian as a whole, the borders, you know,
14:35 it used to take a long time to sell the property
14:37 in the borders and now the properties
14:38 are selling relatively quickly,
14:39 because I think what has changed,
14:41 and I'm sure David would agree,
14:43 that the working world's changed.
14:45 You know, we work from home or we have a hybrid working.
14:49 So the need to be into the office every day
14:52 in that commute probably isn't quite the same.
14:53 So I think we're seeing people looking to move further out
14:57 'cause they may be only have to commute
14:58 once or twice a week.
15:00 The desire for green space,
15:02 the desire to maybe have a home office,
15:03 and clearly the further out you go,
15:05 potentially the less you're paying to get those things.
15:08 So there's been a shift there.
15:09 As I say, we've seen the values in the likes of North Berwick,
15:13 Musselburgh, all increase in the volume of sales
15:16 and interest in those areas have increased.
15:18 That's definitely a trend we've spotted.
15:21 - For those people who are just putting their houses
15:23 on the market, is it all about absolutely
15:25 getting the price right to attract people initially?
15:29 Or is there anything else they can do?
15:31 - I mean, I think certainly as you'll read anywhere,
15:36 part of it is curb appeal,
15:38 part of it is making sure, you know,
15:40 as a seller you want to look at your property
15:42 through a buyer's eyes, just the simple things
15:44 that you can do.
15:45 But I think fundamentally, yeah,
15:47 I think it's price driven.
15:48 And I think getting the pricing strategy right
15:51 in the beginning is absolutely essential.
15:53 You know, you have that window,
15:55 which I think is good news for first-time buyers
15:56 because certainly what's plagued that particular sector
15:59 of the market has been the dreaded double deposit
16:02 where you've had to find the mortgage deposit
16:04 and then you've have to find the premium
16:06 on offers over was with a fixed price.
16:08 You know, from the beginning what you're paying
16:10 and you're merely having to find the mortgage deposit.
16:13 So yeah, I think pricing strategy is key.
16:16 Talk to the experts, get the right advice really.
16:19 - You're listening to the Scotsman Property Podcast
16:22 in paid partnership with DJ Alexander.
16:25 And if you'd like to find out more about Scotsman Podcasts,
16:28 please email podcasts@scotsman.com.
16:32 Now, having a letting expert on one side of me
16:36 and a sales expert on the other side of me,
16:39 I have to ask the question, in the current market,
16:42 would you advise those who are not yet
16:44 on the property ladder to buy or to carry on renting?
16:47 Now, who wants to go first?
16:49 David, do you want to go first and talk about
16:51 what you would advise and in which circumstances?
16:55 - It is a question that actually doesn't have one answer.
16:58 It is all about people's circumstances.
17:02 That, so if we take an individual, for instance,
17:07 who knows that they'll spend the next 25 years
17:10 of their life at the same job, in the same,
17:15 for instance, let's say Edinburgh,
17:16 I personally would think looking at buying something
17:19 as quickly as possible would be the correct thing
17:21 for that individual to do.
17:24 If we look at an individual who thinks
17:25 that they're going to move up and down the country
17:27 every six to nine months with either the company they're in
17:31 or look to change jobs,
17:34 renting is a much better option for that individual.
17:37 So I'm asked that question on a number of occasions,
17:42 are you better renting or are you better buying?
17:45 And it really is dependent on the individual's circumstances.
17:49 So I don't think that there is a right answer
17:53 to the question.
17:55 People renting get the benefit
17:57 of being able to move quickly.
17:59 They've got a fixed amount of money that they need
18:02 to fix rent that they pay.
18:04 If the roof leaks, someone else fixes it.
18:07 And that can be very beneficial to some people.
18:10 Other people, if they know that they're going to be
18:12 in a particular place for a long period of time
18:17 and have the deposit, have the money to pay for the feeds
18:21 and the stamp duty,
18:22 of course it makes sense for them to buy.
18:25 - And Paul, is it true really that it also depends
18:29 on the area that in some places it's almost easier to buy
18:34 than it is to rent?
18:35 And I'm thinking about university towns
18:37 when rents are very high
18:38 and perhaps investing in property is more affordable.
18:42 - Yes, and I think I would probably endorse
18:44 everything David said.
18:45 I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.
18:48 It comes down to the individual.
18:50 It comes down to affordability.
18:52 And it is about doing your research,
18:55 looking at what a rent is
18:56 versus what it would be on a mortgage.
18:58 It's interesting now the Skiptonville and Sarty
19:01 have just launched a 100% mortgage
19:03 for first-time buyers that are in rented properties
19:07 that can ultimately buy.
19:08 So they're doing the affordability test
19:11 by almost assessing your evidence
19:14 of being able to pay your rent.
19:15 And I think it's about looking at the two things.
19:18 If we are in a world where you're moving around cities,
19:21 of course, if you're there for two-year contract
19:24 and then you're somewhere else,
19:25 there is a debate that says
19:27 by the time you pay for your LBTT
19:30 and all the other sunk costs,
19:32 that perhaps renting is the answer.
19:34 And it does change, yeah.
19:35 It's city to city.
19:37 But we have seen an explosion, as we know,
19:39 in the big university cities
19:42 where we have the same problem.
19:44 We, it's the same old tune,
19:46 but we need to build more properties.
19:47 I think the build to rent sector needs to continue to grow
19:51 so that we can get these things under control.
19:54 And because at some point that we just seem
19:58 to be having upward rents and upward prices
20:00 and you kind of wonder, well, where does that end?
20:02 How does that end?
20:03 And as I say, I think a home for everyone
20:05 should be a right, not a privilege.
20:09 - Absolutely.
20:10 I was thinking as well in the current market,
20:14 I'm wondering whether people who already have a deposit
20:17 and have a mortgage arranged
20:19 might want to actually pause before they go ahead and buy
20:23 just to see what the market does next.
20:25 - Yeah, I can understand why people may think that.
20:30 I think as we say,
20:31 there's no bell that ever goes off at the bottom.
20:33 I think we're seeing more fixed prices right now.
20:36 And I think my message would be,
20:39 that properties where maybe you can make an offer,
20:40 it's probably a good time to be coming in
20:43 with no chain able to offer.
20:45 And if you're looking at this as a,
20:47 and we all should look at these as long-term investments
20:50 and ultimately as a home rather than a monetary vehicle,
20:54 an investment vehicle,
20:55 that's how we should be looking at these things.
20:56 It's about what feels right for you in your circumstances.
21:00 But yeah, there's some great buys out there.
21:02 Interestingly enough, we're seeing leafers
21:04 on a real bounce, I think again,
21:06 since the tram line is now finished,
21:09 but the demand for property in our areas
21:11 is significantly increased.
21:13 Both, I'm sure it's the same on the rental side,
21:15 but certainly on the resi sales side,
21:16 that's one of the phenomenas we've noticed recently as well.
21:20 - And I suppose if you're looking to invest in something
21:22 or looking to buy something, as you say, that's long-term,
21:26 but with an eye on rising values,
21:29 then I guess transport or improving transport
21:33 is definitely one of the things
21:35 that you want to be looking for.
21:36 - I would plot the tram line,
21:37 see where they're going next and maybe try.
21:40 - So the popular areas in the sales market,
21:44 David, can I ask if they are the same areas
21:47 that are popular in the rental market or are they different?
21:51 - Yes, they really work hand in hand.
21:54 I mean, the good areas will always be the good areas
21:56 in demand for both rental and sales,
21:58 good transport links, centre of town,
22:01 bit of outside space.
22:03 Popular areas for sale are very popular for rental as well.
22:07 For location, if it's good to buy to live in,
22:10 it's good to buy to rent.
22:12 So they really work hand in hand.
22:15 One point I did want to make on the question you asked
22:19 about people, should they hang off buying at the moment
22:24 because the market, if you believe in an area
22:27 and you believe, I would always urge people
22:30 to go ahead and buy.
22:32 - Now we're going to turn our attention to the outdoors.
22:34 In terms of bang for buck for an upgrading project,
22:38 garden makeovers come out on top.
22:42 The return on the investment can be better than a kitchen,
22:47 new kitchen, a conservatory, or even an extension.
22:51 With that in mind, earlier I talked to Lisa Lembsink,
22:55 an Edinburgh-based garden designer expert
22:58 to see how to get the most value out of a makeover.
23:01 Hi Lisa, thanks for talking to us.
23:03 Can you tell us a little more about what's involved
23:06 when we talk about redesigning gardens
23:09 and investing in landscaping our outside spaces?
23:12 - Garden design involves quite a lot of different facets.
23:17 Basically if a potential client gets in touch,
23:21 I'd start with a consultation with them.
23:24 That's very much the first step.
23:26 Sometimes people just want a consultation from me
23:30 for maybe an hour, an hour and a half to discuss
23:32 any aspect of their garden at all,
23:34 including costs involved in having a revamp.
23:39 You know, so it's not always something
23:42 that leads on to a design,
23:43 but I have to say in most cases it does.
23:45 - So do you like it when clients come to you
23:47 with their own ideas,
23:48 or do you prefer to have a completely free reign?
23:52 - I love it when people come with ideas and suggestions
23:55 because I very much have to quite quickly ascertain
23:59 what they're looking for.
24:00 And usually, not exclusively, but usually it's a couple.
24:06 And 99% of the time they don't actually have the same ideas
24:11 and thoughts about what they want.
24:13 So a lot of the time it's taking what they both want,
24:18 looking at how practical these things are,
24:20 whether it would work in their setting,
24:21 and then really getting them to arrive at compromise.
24:26 - Now, we know a full garden makeover
24:29 is likely to add value to a property,
24:31 but what kind of costs for a typical project
24:34 are we talking about?
24:36 - Yes, unfortunately, like everything,
24:39 the cost of living, every year the cost goes up.
24:43 When I started out in business 15 years ago,
24:46 you could get a really nice back garden
24:49 for about 10,000 pounds all in.
24:52 Now that has definitely jumped massively.
24:55 A lot has been to do with the pandemic
24:59 and the cost of living crisis.
25:01 And I would say now that for a kind of an average garden,
25:04 you need to be thinking of around about 30,000 pounds,
25:08 but in terms of what it buys you, it's not an awful lot.
25:12 So what I would suggest to anybody who's thinking
25:15 about having their garden designed is,
25:17 get in touch with somebody for initial consultation,
25:20 make sure that you think you like them,
25:25 you think you could get on with them,
25:27 that they really understand what you're wanting,
25:29 what the brief is.
25:31 And also definitely get a design done,
25:34 drawn to scale right at the beginning,
25:37 because if you don't have a design,
25:40 then it's not easy for any of the contractors
25:43 to cost what you want.
25:46 And actually I have to say a lot of them
25:49 won't cost anything without a design.
25:53 And then it means you can take that design
25:54 to different contractors and get comparable costs.
25:57 And now if once it's costed, it's too much for your budget,
26:02 the way we tend to work things and try and give people
26:06 as much of what they want as possible,
26:08 is to change the materials used,
26:11 substituting one thing for another.
26:13 - And that price will include things like hard landscaping,
26:16 walls, drives, paths, plus all the trees
26:19 and shrubs and plants.
26:20 - Yes, that's absolutely right.
26:22 That is everything.
26:23 So the cost, I mean, the way I work,
26:25 I would do an initial consultation,
26:29 people only need an hour to an hour and a half,
26:31 so it's not a big spend and that can help get your ideas
26:35 kind of flowing if you like.
26:37 And then I give a fixed price for a design
26:40 and that can vary, really depends on the,
26:45 not just the size of the garden,
26:47 but the kind of design you're looking for.
26:49 But as of July this year,
26:52 it's costing about four and a half thousand a week
26:55 for a three-man team to build your garden.
26:59 So you can see that if your garden needs two weeks
27:03 of a build, then you're up to 9,000 pounds
27:07 and that's really without any materials involved at all.
27:10 So you can see where this kind of 30,000 pounds is coming in.
27:14 Even the plant costs have gone up a lot,
27:17 I've really noticed a big difference this year.
27:19 - And talking of that, in terms of how we use our garden,
27:22 has there been a rise in requests for things
27:24 like outdoor kitchens, garden rooms?
27:27 I've even seen actually some outdoor bathrooms recently
27:30 with a lovely copper bath and well-placed greenery
27:34 screening your modesty surrounding it.
27:36 - I haven't been asked for one of those yet,
27:38 but I'll brace myself for that one.
27:40 Yes, well, do you know, things do, they always do change
27:44 and yes, you're absolutely right.
27:46 Outdoor kitchens certainly are on the increase.
27:51 Pizza ovens, yeah, I've been asked for lots of pizza ovens
27:53 in the last couple of years.
27:56 People really, I think after the pandemic,
27:58 when people were stuck at home,
28:00 it really changed the way people looked at their gardens
28:03 because people who, and most people say to me,
28:07 they're not really gardeners,
28:08 but they want to enjoy their garden.
28:10 You know, they suddenly discovered
28:11 that when they were working from home,
28:13 people could see into,
28:14 their neighbors could see into their house.
28:16 And maybe if there's five or six of you in the pandemic
28:20 stuck at home, people will need space from each other.
28:23 And then you possibly got quite a big space with the garden,
28:27 which has gone completely unused.
28:29 So I think people are thinking, right,
28:32 let's get this looking really good.
28:35 Let's, you know, invite our friends around.
28:37 - And do you get the impression
28:38 that the reason they are spending this money
28:40 is not necessarily to add value to their property?
28:44 It's more to add value to their quality of life?
28:47 - Yes, I think you're absolutely right.
28:50 A lot of people, maybe their children have flown the nest
28:53 and they've decided to stay in the family home
28:57 because they love it.
28:58 And they want a really nice garden
28:59 that they can enjoy in their retirement.
29:02 They may be retired or just retiring.
29:04 I have a lot of people fall into that category.
29:07 And yes, they think, well, you know,
29:09 I'm going to be at home more.
29:10 I quite like a little bit of gardening.
29:12 Really like to have my friends around.
29:14 And yeah, they do want to make their garden nice.
29:17 So I would say, yes.
29:19 I always say to people, you know,
29:21 you're never going to lose money on this
29:22 because eventually when people sell,
29:26 if maybe they need to go into care
29:28 or any of these things further down the line,
29:30 you know, it's going to be really easy to sell your property
29:35 and also to get more from it.
29:38 I think- - To recoup it.
29:41 - Yeah, to recoup it.
29:43 So yeah, I would say that you'll never lose
29:45 by having your garden redesigned.
29:48 - Absolutely.
29:49 Thanks so much for talking to us, Lisa.
29:50 And we'll let you get back to work
29:52 for what's obviously a very busy time for you.
29:55 That was Lisa Lemsink of Lemsink Garden Design.
29:58 Paul, what do you think?
30:00 Do you think that a garden makeover
30:03 is better than a kitchen extension
30:05 or extending into the loft, redoing a basement?
30:09 Can you see how it would add an awful lot of value?
30:13 - I can certainly see how it adds value.
30:14 Again, it has to be the right property.
30:17 Clearly, if it takes up all your garden, probably not.
30:19 But if you have the space,
30:20 I think it's a low cost alternative to an extension,
30:24 probably quicker because you are likely
30:26 to need planning permission as well.
30:28 So, and we've seen the growth, as we've said earlier,
30:31 in the rise of hybrid working.
30:32 So having a home office outside or a home gym,
30:35 I think is a really nice thing.
30:37 And certainly it's something
30:38 that I know buyers would be interested in.
30:39 So yeah, I can see why it would be
30:41 a good return on the investment.
30:44 - And do you think that actually
30:46 it's more about having a garden in the first place?
30:50 You know, the difference in price
30:51 between a property with no garden
30:54 and a property with a small garden is much bigger.
30:57 It doesn't matter what the garden is like,
30:59 even if it's just a patch of ground, it has potential.
31:03 - Yeah, I think clearly COVID did change a lot of things.
31:07 And one thing we became clear is people like green spaces,
31:11 be it a shared garden in some of the city centre flats
31:14 or have your own private garden,
31:16 the desire to have some green space,
31:18 I think is probably greater now
31:21 than it's been in a long time.
31:22 And that would explain why we see
31:23 the likes of East Lothian, North Berwick,
31:25 these areas where generally you have to put through
31:27 a bit more space are popular.
31:29 - And David, is having a garden as important for tenants?
31:35 Is it something that landlords,
31:37 when they're investing in property,
31:38 should start thinking about,
31:40 are you likely to make it a lot more desirable?
31:43 Or is having a garden as a landlord a bit too much hassle?
31:47 - When COVID came, outside space became an absolute premium.
31:51 And we picked this up very, very early.
31:53 When people were working from home,
31:55 having the ability to sit outside and have garden space
32:00 became an absolute premium.
32:02 And it's not quite as popular as it was then.
32:07 Certainly it has changed people's thinking.
32:09 But the reality is,
32:10 if you're fortunate enough to have a west-facing garden,
32:13 it'll be the sun will set for the rest of the time.
32:17 And that garden, and it really does add value,
32:20 both sales and rental.
32:22 So I'm a great fan of outside space
32:26 and spending about money on it and presenting it well,
32:30 definitely makes a difference,
32:31 both in sales and in rental.
32:33 - There we go.
32:34 And this is the best time of year to do it.
32:36 But with the sun setting on this edition,
32:39 I will say thank you very much to Lisa Lemsick,
32:43 who I spoke to earlier.
32:44 And thank you to my other guests,
32:45 David Alexander and Paul Hilton.
32:48 You've been listening to the Scotsman Property Podcast,
32:50 which is part of a paid partnership
32:52 with letting specialist DJ Alexander.
32:55 If you'd like to carry on the conversation,
32:57 get in touch with me on Twitter using @ScotsmanKirsty,
33:01 or follow Scotsman Property on Facebook.
33:04 And join us again next month.
33:06 Thank you.
33:07 [MUSIC PLAYING]