Outlook Business Masterspeak Ep3: Reset Ideas For Business Leaders with R.Gopalakrishnan
Watch Tata Son’s R. Gopalakrishnan in conversation with N Mahalakshmi, Editor, Outlook Business on reset ideas for business leaders.
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#MasterSpeak #Business #OutlookBusiness #OutlookMagazine #OutlookGroup
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Welcome ladies and gentlemen
00:12 to Outlook Business Masterspeak.
00:14 Today we have with us our Gopalakrishnan.
00:15 He has been there, done that,
00:17 and having made his mark in two of India's
00:20 greatest companies, Levers and Retatas.
00:22 He's one of the finest minds
00:23 with respect to strategy and leadership,
00:25 but what I really love him for is his wit and wisdom,
00:29 and even better his catchphrases,
00:31 which nail the point in a way you can never forget.
00:34 He's going to talk to us today
00:36 about some recent ideas for business leaders.
00:39 Gopal, thank you so much for being with us today.
00:41 While we get ready to listen to you in rapt attention,
00:44 I want to thank our presenting sponsors,
00:46 Hyperlink Infosystems and co-sponsor IRR Solutions
00:49 for partnering with us on this.
00:51 Gopal, all yours, you can talk about your ideas,
00:54 and then we'll take up some questions.
00:57 - Okay, thank you very much, Mahalakshmi,
00:59 and greetings to your audience.
01:02 We are meeting in a strange way in strange times,
01:06 but then that's the new normal now.
01:09 I wish you and all your families very well,
01:13 and thought I would use this opportunity
01:16 provided by Outlook Business
01:19 to see how we can reset our minds
01:25 during this forced lockdown
01:27 that all of us have been through.
01:28 What do I mean by reset?
01:32 I think I'm gonna start there.
01:35 By the way, the agenda that I have
01:36 is first to give you some of the words that we said,
01:39 and then go on, and I've prepared six ideas,
01:42 but I don't think it would be very interesting
01:44 to go through all the six.
01:45 I'll go through a couple of them,
01:46 and then maybe we can have an interaction, Mahalakshmi.
01:50 I can go through two or three ideas,
01:52 but let me first explain what is a reset idea.
01:56 A reset idea is when you get back to reality.
02:00 We all have the ability to be staying
02:02 and living in the past.
02:03 It happens to all of us,
02:05 and to illustrate this, I'm gonna tell you a story
02:08 about a young Japanese guy.
02:09 His name was Hiroo Onoda,
02:12 and Hiroo Onoda was born around 1922,
02:15 and he joined the Japanese, the Emperor's Army in 1940
02:22 when he was 18 or whatever,
02:24 and then he was trained to be a very high-quality soldier
02:29 with alertness and art of warfare,
02:34 and they air-dropped him after training
02:37 into the Mubang jungle of Philippines.
02:41 Remember, we are talking about the Second World War times,
02:44 and he had been instructed that every morning
02:46 he must get up, he must grease his rifle,
02:49 and he must wear his goggles,
02:50 and he must look around left and right,
02:53 and look for the enemy,
02:54 because no enemy should be allowed to be in that jungle.
02:58 He did this very diligently,
03:00 because he was trained,
03:01 and it is something that he wanted to do
03:04 in the service of the Emperor,
03:07 but he kept on doing it from 1942 till 1971.
03:12 The war got over in 1945.
03:15 He was so focused on what he had to do,
03:19 on the tasks at hand,
03:21 that he could not keep in touch with his environment,
03:24 and any attempt to reach him by his old bosses all failed.
03:29 Finally, in 1971, when he had eaten
03:32 probably all the berries available in the jungle,
03:35 they found him.
03:37 His boss came to him and he said, "Hey, hero."
03:39 He said, "Where have you been?
03:40 "It's a war.
03:41 "How's the war going?"
03:42 He said, "No, no, it's now 30 years.
03:44 "The war is over, gone."
03:46 He said, "Why didn't you tell me?"
03:48 He said, "Well, they took him back to Tokyo,
03:51 "gave him a hero's welcome."
03:52 Because by this time, remember,
03:53 he's almost 50 years of age,
03:55 and then he was given a good retirement
03:58 in Honshu Island or somewhere,
03:59 and then he died about five years ago,
04:01 seven years ago,
04:03 and that's how the story came out in the New York Times.
04:06 And I read this story with great interest.
04:08 What an amazing story,
04:10 that here's a man who's very diligent,
04:13 doing everything he had been told,
04:16 keeping very alert and working incredibly hard,
04:19 but the times had changed,
04:21 he ended up being a bit irrelevant.
04:25 And it caught my fancy
04:26 because there's a bit of hero onada in all of us.
04:30 We tend to be living in the past,
04:32 like hero onada.
04:34 We do it extremely diligently,
04:36 and then find that we miss the right signals
04:39 of change that were happening around us.
04:41 So I think occasions like the lockdown
04:46 give us an opportunity.
04:48 If hero onada had learned meditation in the jungle,
04:51 he might have said,
04:52 "Is there some other way to look at this?"
04:54 We've had such an experience through this lockdown.
04:57 And I sat down and thought,
05:00 I've been around 50 years,
05:02 so a long time.
05:03 What is it that I would say?
05:05 I'm not gonna come to any new truth.
05:07 It's not a new gospel that I've arrived at,
05:10 but reiterating some things that we may be missing.
05:14 So let me tell you that that's what I mean by a reset idea.
05:18 I'm trying to break out of this
05:19 mode in which all of us get,
05:22 but you're so focused on doing
05:24 that you're on the treadmill.
05:26 You don't have time to breathe and think,
05:28 and you lose the wood for the trees.
05:30 You know, the old days,
05:35 we said it's an industrial era.
05:36 Then we said it's the data era.
05:40 We are now in the knowledge era,
05:42 and that should guide us as to where our priorities can be.
05:47 To illustrate,
05:49 when the Pandavas won in the Mahabharata war,
05:54 it is not that they had any superior knowledge,
05:57 neither did they have any great superior arms.
06:00 They had the same elephants and the same...
06:04 All that they had was a slightly better organization.
06:07 So they were organized and they were able to win the war.
06:10 So that's exactly how many centuries later,
06:15 the Persians lost to the Romans,
06:19 the Roman Empire expanded.
06:21 But if you come to Hiroshima
06:23 and what happened in the Second World War,
06:25 it was not just organization.
06:27 It was not just,
06:28 it was superior knowledge and technology
06:31 that was deployed to bring the war to an end.
06:33 And so I want to emphasize
06:36 that acquisition of knowledge
06:38 requires you to have two things,
06:41 curiosity.
06:42 If you're not curious,
06:43 you're not going to be successful.
06:45 And once you're curious,
06:47 then of course you must go and learn.
06:49 So I want to go to the principle of ignorance and curiosity.
06:53 Ignorance is good to admit.
06:55 We are very hesitant to admit that we are ignorant.
06:59 Very often you hear people say,
07:01 "I've been around in this industry or this business
07:03 for 25 years.
07:05 I pretty much know what I want to know."
07:08 But that world itself is changing
07:09 as a hero, not a story tells you.
07:11 So it's this concept of reset
07:14 that our minds tend to be,
07:16 we become slaves to our particular circumstance
07:19 and we do repetitive tasks.
07:21 We forget the art of ignorance
07:23 because it's not a nice thing to admit that you're ignorant.
07:26 And we cease to be curious,
07:28 which we last were when we were two years old,
07:31 crawling on our knees.
07:33 We are our mother's, our father's home.
07:36 My first big reset idea,
07:39 I call them big
07:41 because it is self-evident and yet we miss it.
07:45 The first big reset idea I want to present is
07:48 re-learning how to learn.
07:49 Most people I find managers, including myself,
07:55 I'm not sitting on a pedestal.
07:56 I've made these mistakes.
07:58 We think we know what there is to know.
08:00 I've done my MBA.
08:01 I'm from IIT.
08:02 I've gone to Harvard.
08:04 And
08:05 we amazingly lose our ability to learn
08:10 and our desire to learn.
08:11 It precipitously falls.
08:13 I want to narrate a little story
08:17 to show you how precipitously it falls.
08:20 It's a personal story, which I think may be helpful.
08:23 And like the hero, not a story,
08:24 and there's a bit of hero, not all of us.
08:27 This story that I'm telling you will show you
08:29 that there's a bit of a go-park in all of us as well.
08:32 So the year is 1987, 33 years ago, 23 years ago.
08:37 And I was only 41 years of age.
08:41 I was appointed to be a director of Hindustan Leaver
08:45 and the director for exports.
08:47 And it was a big deal.
08:49 And if you think of 1987, this is pre-liberalization.
08:52 I don't know how many of the audience
08:53 can even remember those periods.
08:55 It was a big deal to be in a multinational company
08:57 as a director of the board at 41.
09:00 So I suppose I must have been slightly pompous and arrogant,
09:05 which I can admit now freely.
09:07 And all of us tend to get pompous and arrogant
09:09 in the course of our work and careers.
09:12 Now, one of the tasks that I had as a director of exports
09:16 was to deliver 10% of the turnover of my company,
09:21 Hindustan Leaver, through foreign exchange earnings
09:24 and exports.
09:25 And since there's a limit to how much of shampoo
09:29 and toothpaste you could export,
09:30 we went into all sorts of non-traditional areas.
09:33 So leather garments and shoes and carpets
09:38 and textiles and so on.
09:41 Now, we knew nothing about all this.
09:44 You could go to the boardroom of Hindustan Leaver
09:46 and take a tablet to soak.
09:47 You could open it, smell it,
09:48 and say what's right or wrong with it.
09:50 If you presented us several t-shirts,
09:53 apart from being able to wear it,
09:55 none of us knew anything about it.
09:56 So we recruited people from outside to help us.
10:00 But they came from a different cultural context.
10:02 I'm not saying all of them are bad,
10:05 garment industry or footwear industry,
10:07 as many bad people as the soap industry
10:09 or any other industry.
10:10 But they had domain knowledge,
10:13 but didn't have a culture.
10:14 We had a culture, but didn't have the domain knowledge.
10:16 And I thought we'd make a nice fit of this.
10:19 As it so happens, I made a mistake.
10:22 Because we recruited a senior, experienced person
10:24 who was absolutely slick, very slick.
10:27 And one fine morning, we found $700,000 missing.
10:32 I don't want to go into the detail,
10:36 because that will divert us from,
10:38 but please understand, if you don't remember 1980s,
10:41 we had a legislation called
10:43 Foreign Exchange Regulation Act,
10:45 which was absolutely draconian.
10:47 If you couldn't find $5, you could go to jail
10:49 because of criminal offence.
10:51 And here we were $700,000 we couldn't find.
10:54 And for me, the dilemma was,
10:58 I trusted this man, I gave him the freedom.
11:00 Has he misused it?
11:01 If so, why don't I wait another two, three days
11:05 till the facts are clear?
11:06 Because at the moment, all that's happening
11:08 is my CFO's telling me that
11:09 the books are not matching with the physical cash.
11:13 So one instinct on my part was to wait a few days.
11:19 There was a second instinct that came to me,
11:21 just keep quiet the problem.
11:22 It's like a bank can be a problem that we see nowadays,
11:27 just keep quiet, somehow it will solve itself.
11:30 And the third one was, ask for help.
11:32 Go and say that you've got a mess on your hands.
11:38 And you know what I did?
11:40 I did the third one.
11:41 It took me a lot of effort,
11:44 but I had to relearn to learn.
11:46 That's my moral of the story.
11:48 Because in the first,
11:50 I don't have to admit I'm a fool.
11:53 But in the last one, I had to admit I was a fool.
11:56 I've got tricks under my nose.
11:58 But it occurred to me,
12:00 and I had some sagacious advice from Mendoz,
12:04 that it's better to admit you're a fool to a few people
12:07 than to look like a crook to lots of people.
12:11 And that's what would have happened.
12:12 The newspaper headlines would have said,
12:14 "Hindustani, your director, arrested $700,000
12:18 "in a big scam."
12:18 You know how it happens.
12:19 Once it gets out, it becomes far more difficult.
12:23 So I walked into my chairman and said,
12:25 "You know, I'm not going to look like a fool.
12:27 "This is not the way a dashing
12:29 "Hindustani, your director is supposed to behave.
12:31 "But I just don't know what's happened, $700,000."
12:34 Luckily for me, he trusted me,
12:39 and the whole company, the accounts, the audit, the legal,
12:44 everybody came together,
12:45 and spent the next seven, eight months.
12:48 We went to the statutory authority and said,
12:50 "We have a genuine human error that's happened.
12:52 "Please don't harass us.
12:55 "We just had a loss of control."
13:00 I must say to the credit of the Reserve Bank,
13:02 Finance Ministry, and all the others involved,
13:04 that they said, "We cannot charge you for a genuine error."
13:09 And the matter was investigated and put to bed,
13:12 and nothing came in the newspaper.
13:15 And that saved me a lot of embarrassment.
13:17 And I thought I'm going to get fired.
13:19 I deserve to get fired, frankly.
13:22 41-year-old director, now looking for a new job.
13:26 But you know the company said,
13:28 "You know, when you make a genuine mistake,
13:30 "and you come and admit it, and help us to solve it,
13:33 "we are not going to fire you.
13:35 "We all make mistakes."
13:36 So they not only retained me,
13:38 they actually promoted me and sent me
13:40 as the chairman of a company in Arabia.
13:42 So it had a nice little ending.
13:44 But I mention this to you because there are three lessons
13:47 that I learned from this, which are very relevant
13:50 if you look at the context in which
13:52 today's Indian economy is.
13:54 The higher you rise, the more you must discover humility.
13:58 So the higher you rise, the more you tend to forget humility.
14:03 That's human nature.
14:04 It's nothing to do with me or you.
14:06 So the higher you rise,
14:08 the more you must rediscover humility.
14:11 Knowing humility causes you to admit ignorance,
14:15 and therefore seek to relearn.
14:18 When you make a serious mistake,
14:21 admit it, don't cover up.
14:24 And lastly, never stop learning.
14:27 And I think all these three came together
14:30 in what I consider to be the most expensive
14:33 management training course I've attended in my career.
14:36 I mean, I've been to programs in IIM,
14:38 in the Management Association,
14:40 in Harvard Business School,
14:42 but this one topped it, $700,000.
14:45 I don't think even Harvard cost my company
14:48 only $60,000, $70,000 in those days.
14:51 So I'd say this is the most expensive
14:53 management training I've had,
14:56 where you fell down, cut yourself,
14:58 admitted your error, somebody helped you
15:00 to get back on your feet.
15:02 And luckily I finished my career okay,
15:04 it was not finished at that time.
15:06 And I would like to say that in this
15:10 interregnum that you had,
15:11 because of the lockdown,
15:12 do try to remember your mistakes
15:14 and try to admit them to yourself,
15:16 and be in an ever learning mode.
15:18 So that's the first reset idea
15:21 I would like to share with you.
15:22 My second reset idea is
15:24 what I've called corporate immunology.
15:28 Immunology is a very nice word
15:30 for the current situation with COVID.
15:32 And it brings to our mind
15:34 that the human body can be immunized.
15:38 Not for everything, but for many things,
15:39 as soon as a particular bug or bacteria
15:42 or virus gets you.
15:44 So a company also has visible
15:48 and invisible predators or enemies.
15:51 Just like human beings have visible or invisible.
15:54 It's the invisibles that require immunology,
15:57 the visible ones don't.
15:59 So what are the company's visible threats?
16:02 Competition, regulations,
16:07 inner talent, all that is sort of visible.
16:10 And they teach you a lot about it
16:13 in your MBA programs,
16:15 in your post-management programs.
16:17 And you're able to keep learning.
16:20 So what is visible is something
16:22 that you know how to deal with.
16:24 They're difficult to deal with,
16:25 but you get trained and you deal with it.
16:28 The great problem in human health
16:29 is the invisible stuff.
16:31 What toxin is being generated in my stomach?
16:34 What funny ideas are coming in my brain?
16:38 Which virus is getting me?
16:40 How many times do I have to wash my hands with soap?
16:42 And so on and so forth.
16:44 And the company has exactly the same kind of problem.
16:47 Because the invisible things are things like
16:50 the ego of the top leadership,
16:52 the greed of the top leadership.
16:55 And there are enough examples,
16:56 I don't have to be indiscreet and quote them.
16:59 Outlook Business writes about them regularly
17:01 so they can give you a litany of them,
17:03 give you a lot.
17:05 But the whole message came to me
17:08 in a very naive way recently.
17:11 Recently, it's just three weeks ago.
17:13 There is a person called Miss Abigail Disney,
17:18 that's her name.
17:19 And she's the granddaughter of Mr. Disney,
17:21 of Walt Disney, who began Disney World.
17:25 So now she's just a shareholder.
17:27 She gets dividends,
17:28 but she's not involved with the company
17:30 in management terms.
17:32 And this granddaughter was horrified one day to learn
17:36 that the top leadership of the Disney World
17:40 have decided that they will reduce the pay
17:42 of 100,000 people, workers.
17:45 But they have done nothing about the executive bonus
17:47 or the dividends,
17:48 which is a billion and a half dollars.
17:51 And she let fly, I mean, in the public domain.
17:56 She said, and I'm reading,
17:58 "Pay the people who make the magic happen.
18:01 Treat them with respect and dignity."
18:03 I repeat, "Pay the people who make the magic happen.
18:08 Treat them with respect and dignity."
18:11 If you're not cutting your own,
18:12 and you're cutting them,
18:14 you're not paying the people,
18:15 because you're not the guys who make the magic happen.
18:17 It's they who make the magic happen.
18:19 And this struck me as very poignant
18:22 in the current circumstance.
18:25 Who makes the magic happen?
18:26 Migrant workers?
18:28 Or the non-migrant workers like you and I.
18:32 And the fact that this whole country
18:36 has been brought to a grinding halt,
18:38 and all the industrialists are saying,
18:40 "We can't restart."
18:42 There have been interviews,
18:43 and some of you might have heard of this.
18:45 "We can't restart it.
18:46 We don't have the labor, the people."
18:48 So corporate crisis also come
18:51 due to this invisible kind of attacks on it.
18:55 And therefore, I thought of the word,
18:57 like you have human immunology.
18:59 Is there something called corporate immunology?
19:01 And how can you immunize the company?
19:03 And it struck me
19:04 that I should study the human immune system
19:10 as a layman's perspective.
19:11 I found there was a particular immunologist
19:13 who's turned to be a management professor.
19:15 So he's interesting and very relevant and useful for me.
19:19 And what he said is the following.
19:21 I hope I'm not erring.
19:23 I'm trying to keep it as simple,
19:24 because I suppose most of you are also lay people.
19:28 But we have three layers of an immune system in our bodies.
19:32 There's absolutely no logical reason
19:34 why the human body and the human being should exist,
19:37 because there are so many bugs and viruses getting us.
19:40 It's a battle every day.
19:42 But there is this three-layer immune system
19:44 that is protecting us.
19:45 What is this three layer?
19:47 The first layer is the physical layer, the outer layer,
19:50 which is our skin, for example.
19:52 Our skin prevents various things
19:53 from getting into our body.
19:55 It repels them.
19:56 And that's the outer layer.
19:58 The outer layer equivalent for a company
20:02 is the passion of its people.
20:04 You know, when a company is highly engaged people,
20:08 when they are passionate about their company,
20:11 that doesn't mean they're always singing hosannas
20:13 about their company.
20:14 What it means is that they're proud to work for that company.
20:17 They don't say, "Oh, man, something is happening here."
20:20 If somebody asks them, "Shall I join this company?"
20:22 My nephew or daughter wants to apply to this company.
20:25 They say, "No, no, no, don't join this crazy company."
20:27 You know, that's not what passion is all about.
20:30 So the outer layer of the human body equivalent
20:33 is the passion.
20:34 When you see in a company that there's a buzz
20:36 and people are very involved with what they are doing,
20:38 that gives you a sense that's the first immune layer
20:41 that the outside body has to penetrate.
20:44 The second immune layer for our human body
20:47 is what is called the innate layer.
20:49 Below the physical layer, there's an innate layer.
20:52 Innate means it's germane to yourself.
20:55 Your DNA, for example, is what you've inherited.
20:58 So if there's been diabetes in the family,
21:00 that might be a weakness in your immune system.
21:03 And so the company also has the equivalent of an innate,
21:07 which I call the cut.
21:08 Somehow, this is not the done thing here.
21:12 That is the done thing here.
21:14 In some companies, cutting cost
21:17 is the first thing they think of.
21:19 In some other companies,
21:20 they say, "Let's look after the lower level people.
21:22 "The higher level people give up more."
21:24 These are all matters of culture.
21:26 So there's passion in the first layer,
21:28 and culture is in the second layer.
21:30 The third layer, which is there in our human body,
21:34 is below the innate system, there is an adaptive system.
21:39 So if a bug manages, like your coronavirus,
21:43 gets through the front layer,
21:45 because it gets through your nose or your face,
21:47 that's why you're not advised to touch your face,
21:50 and if it gets through your innate layer,
21:52 then it gets into your body, your bloodstream,
21:55 and then your immune system has to work.
21:58 And they recognize a foreign body,
22:00 and the antibodies come,
22:01 and there's a Mahabharata war going on
22:04 on our body all the time.
22:05 In a company, that happens due to what I call positivity.
22:08 So positivity,
22:13 so there is an academic professor of psychology
22:16 called Barbara Fredrickson,
22:19 and she's done a lot of work on this.
22:20 If any of you Google it, you'll find.
22:22 I'm not an expert on these subjects,
22:24 but my idea is to trigger your thinking
22:26 and allow you to follow it or research it further.
22:31 And she has defined what is positivity
22:33 and what is negativity.
22:34 And she has come with a simplistic formula.
22:36 Most of us have got used to this algorithmic way of managing.
22:40 She says the positivity divided by negativity
22:42 is equal to three or more.
22:44 You're in a very good meeting.
22:44 That means your adaptive system is very good.
22:47 If people are saying,
22:48 "This is not going to happen, it's over,"
22:51 then you get a different ratio and a different response.
22:55 And if I combine these three layers
22:57 into what I call corporate immunology,
22:59 I call it people power.
23:01 People power is equal to passion multiplied by culture
23:06 multiplied by positivity.
23:09 And that constitutes the corporate immunology.
23:13 Most of us are so busy in the course of our day-to-day work
23:18 trying to become more efficient
23:21 that we forget what it is to be more effective.
23:25 We pay lip service that people are our great asset,
23:31 but we don't treat them that way.
23:33 And again, in a space without my getting critical
23:36 or inadvertently bordering on the politics,
23:38 you can see this happen.
23:40 You see it in your company.
23:41 Why should you go out and look at politics?
23:44 And I think my second reset idea is,
23:47 please think about corporate immunology for your company.
23:51 How do you strengthen, with more respect,
23:56 the people power that's available to your company?
23:58 Because that is what is going to be your immune system.
24:01 - Before I ask you a question,
24:04 we'll just take a five-second break and come back.
24:07 (upbeat music)
24:09 Welcome back.
24:15 The first question I want to ask you is,
24:19 you talked about courage.
24:20 I mean, your first point of a reset
24:22 is really about relearning.
24:24 And fundamental to relearning is,
24:27 you say that you have to admit and have the courage
24:31 to say, "I have earned or I don't have the courage
24:36 or I don't know this."
24:38 And that's how you go back to square one and say that,
24:41 "Okay, how do I now get back on track?"
24:45 Now, especially like you pointed out in your own case,
24:49 when the stakes are high,
24:52 for example, you committed a mistake
24:54 and you're saying you lost $700,000,
24:57 which is a large amount it would cost you your job
25:00 and that might absolutely jeopardize your career.
25:03 How do you really muster the courage?
25:05 Because this is really about,
25:08 at that point in time,
25:11 it's easier to say in hindsight
25:12 that that's the way you should be as a third person
25:15 or even look back in time
25:18 and say that this is the way to do it.
25:19 But at that point in time,
25:21 it's very hard to come to terms with that.
25:25 So how do you really weigh?
25:27 Because however you look at it,
25:30 you may always think that this is,
25:32 you are at the losing end
25:34 if you've done something wrong.
25:36 For example, most CEOs don't even have the courage,
25:40 for example, to go to the board of directors
25:43 and say that this business doesn't look good
25:46 because, or if you talk about fund managers,
25:50 they don't have the courage to go out and say that,
25:54 "I want to take in weights in my portfolio,
25:59 which are vastly different from the benchmark index."
26:02 Because that puts you at risk
26:06 because you're looking, if your call goes wrong,
26:08 then you have to take the flat for it.
26:12 So career risk is something that everybody faces,
26:16 whatever job you are in.
26:18 And I think that's what makes most of us less courageous
26:23 than we would otherwise find ourselves in.
26:28 - So just in the context of this career risk,
26:33 how do you really tell yourself that,
26:35 yeah, this is the way to go about it?
26:37 - That's a very good question, a sensitive one.
26:42 And I don't think I have a bad answer, to be honest.
26:45 If I say, "No, no, no, be courageous,"
26:47 that's not answering the question.
26:49 But in the thinking, reflections that I have done,
26:53 and I think it's to do with authenticity,
26:56 who you really are.
26:58 When you peel the onion layers, layer after layer,
27:02 there's a core you, which is not always revealed
27:06 through your suited, booted,
27:08 plush, decarpeted office scenario.
27:12 And you have to ask yourself.
27:14 So I don't want to give you the impression
27:16 that it's an easy decision for me
27:17 to put my career at risk.
27:19 Absolutely.
27:20 I don't want you to think that I was a courageous fellow
27:24 and I looked squarely at myself in the mirror
27:26 and said, "Come on, Bhopal, do it now."
27:28 Nothing of the sort.
27:29 I was feeling very vulnerable.
27:31 I could see that I could get sacked.
27:35 I could see that I would cut a sorry figure
27:39 with the then prevalent Mahalakshmi type of editors
27:43 from the newspapers.
27:45 But I sought counsel.
27:47 I sought counsel from a more senior director
27:53 who had been my boss earlier in my career.
27:55 I said, "I'm not sure how to deal with it."
27:58 I demonstrated, without my intending to do so,
28:01 a vulnerability that I was willing to ask another person.
28:05 And he was the guy who told me,
28:07 "Don't try to solve every problem yourself,
28:11 "even if you have created it.
28:13 "Seek help.
28:14 "Go right now and talk to the chairman."
28:17 So I think if you must have the vulnerability,
28:21 then you must be willing to admit your vulnerability.
28:23 Then you seek counsel.
28:25 And then my throat was parched.
28:28 I don't think I should give you the impression
28:30 I stomped into the chairman's room and I sat there.
28:32 No, I was very quickie.
28:34 But I somehow was persuaded that I have to be myself.
28:40 And the core of me said, "You made a mistake, admit it.
28:44 "You look like a fool.
28:45 "Better to look like a fool to 10 people in the company
28:49 "than to 10,000 people through the media."
28:52 I think those are the sort of factors
28:53 that pass through my mind.
28:55 Those leaders, especially in business,
28:57 they're in anything, actually, in business,
29:00 who are not willing to admit
29:02 that they've put their career at risk,
29:06 not because of some macho machismo or anything like that,
29:11 but you're asking your officers to take financial risks,
29:15 to take control risks, to take entrepreneurial risks.
29:18 You're not willing to risk your own career
29:21 after making a mistake.
29:22 Doesn't seem right.
29:23 So I don't know, that was the...
29:25 I'm putting it more elegantly now,
29:27 but at that time, it was a horrendous mess.
29:29 Should have showed you.
29:30 - Right, right.
29:31 Tell me, is vulnerability good at the very top?
29:36 Because as a leader, you're always expected to show,
29:41 of course, courage,
29:43 but you're not supposed to show your vulnerability
29:46 because then you pass it on to the rest of the team.
29:50 So you're always expected to be strong and positive
29:54 and say the right things.
29:55 And also, when you know that the buck stops at you,
29:58 do you really have an option to say,
30:01 "Well, I made a mistake"?
30:03 - You know, I think in your question,
30:08 and the definition of what a leader is, lies the answer.
30:12 We have got a wrong impression of a leader,
30:15 that he must have big blue eyes, a very square jaw,
30:19 and a person who never makes a mistake.
30:22 The reality is that in hindsight,
30:30 you can give a speech on those things,
30:33 but you're a human being.
30:35 And a person who doesn't admit his own vulnerabilities
30:38 to himself or herself,
30:40 I'm not saying vulnerable doesn't mean
30:43 that you go like a quaking leaf to the office
30:46 and tell everybody, "I'm stuck, I don't know what to do."
30:50 Outwardly, you may give the impression of a clarity,
30:53 but inwardly, you're vulnerable.
30:56 And because you're vulnerable,
30:58 you become meditative or reflective,
31:00 you consult with people.
31:02 Now, you take the current situation that's come with COVID.
31:08 It's not that everybody has experience of this.
31:10 I mean, even if somebody were to argue
31:12 that the Spanish flu of 1918 has similarities,
31:15 nobody who's alive today was around at that time.
31:19 So you are like a blinded man, blindfolded man,
31:22 seeking your way by feeling the pillars around you
31:27 and trying not to fall.
31:29 But if at that time, in your private moments,
31:33 you don't have the vulnerability
31:36 and the willingness to consult with people
31:38 and devolve power and authority,
31:42 then you're going to be in a very tough spot.
31:44 And if you look at the way COVID has gone through the world,
31:49 dictatorships like Russia, China, Brazil,
31:57 have not come through very well.
32:00 But I don't know if Brazil is a dictatorship.
32:02 Technically, it's a democracy.
32:07 But Russia and China are perfectly good democracies,
32:12 like Taiwan, like South Korea,
32:18 seem to have done quite well.
32:22 And then democracies where machismo people are there,
32:27 read America, Britain,
32:30 you can put India wherever you want,
32:31 but I'll keep to other countries,
32:34 have come through in between.
32:36 So I think there's great things to be said
32:38 about the evolution of power,
32:40 involving people, communication and humanity,
32:43 and all that comes in a cluster.
32:44 I don't think my definition of a leader
32:48 is a person who's not willing to admit
32:50 to the vulnerability to himself.
32:51 Vulnerability has certain effects,
32:56 and it's those effects I'm looking for,
32:58 which is you become consultative,
33:00 you become collaborative with people.
33:04 And it's a great, interesting,
33:07 to be totally self-relevant and say,
33:09 I am the guy, I know what to do.
33:11 I mean, if you look at what Trump is doing,
33:13 that is exactly what he's doing.
33:15 Now, I don't want to,
33:16 I'm looking at Trump from a leadership position
33:20 rather than from a political position.
33:23 If you think all the wisdom is with you,
33:26 then you've got a problem.
33:28 And that's exactly how a leader should not be.
33:30 - Sure.
33:34 Okay, the second question relates to, of course,
33:37 your second point on corporate immunology.
33:40 By the way, that's a catchphrase nobody's going to forget.
33:44 So, you talked about passion and culture and positivity.
33:49 And the third one is really the one
33:52 that is being challenged in times like this.
33:57 And this is also the time that most leaders
34:02 have to take very hard decisions.
34:04 And the hardest decisions in business
34:06 is also related to people.
34:08 Letting people go, cutting salaries,
34:11 and all of these decisions are very, very
34:14 touchy, emotional issues.
34:16 How do you really reinstate positivity?
34:21 Because I'm assuming that from the point we are,
34:25 I mean, there is a certain loss of positivity
34:28 already because of the environment.
34:29 So, how do you really create a positive sentiment
34:34 while you are navigating the environment
34:39 and you have to take all these hard decisions?
34:44 - Actually, you asked a very good question.
34:47 I don't intend to suggest that you generate positivity
34:51 when the crisis has come to you.
34:54 I'm saying your starting position,
34:57 your opening balance sheet must have positivity
35:00 which is three times negativity.
35:03 Because there will always be some negativity
35:05 in any organization.
35:06 That will help you to coast through this crisis.
35:10 During the deep crisis, the ratios may change,
35:13 but you're not spending your time measuring positivity
35:16 and negativity during the crisis.
35:18 So, it's like saying, if you have a strong balance sheet
35:22 with good cash reserves, then when you get into a recession,
35:26 you can weather it.
35:28 But during the actual weathering it,
35:30 your debt equity ratio may be a bit out of time.
35:33 But it's only a bit out of time
35:35 because you have something to fall back on.
35:36 In the same way, I refer to positivity
35:39 as an asset that you should be developing right through
35:43 and not during the crisis.
35:46 - Sure.
35:47 And one more question related to people.
35:53 This is something I think a lot of companies
35:55 are really grappling with in terms of when you have to
35:59 cut employee costs.
36:01 And that seems to be a lever a lot of companies are using.
36:06 What should be, is there a framework to think about it?
36:11 Should fairness be a consideration?
36:14 Should business objectives be the top consideration?
36:17 Should you care for loyalty of employees?
36:22 Should you have a flat cut based on work?
36:25 How do you really get around these things?
36:27 Because for a lot of companies,
36:29 there may not be precedence to go with.
36:33 That this is exactly the way we approach things.
36:36 - I'll give you a real example.
36:39 I think I can mention the names of the companies,
36:43 though I wasn't directly involved.
36:44 I know of it first hand.
36:46 Back in 1990,
36:50 '92, '93, '94,
36:54 Tata Steel went through a major restructuring exercise.
36:59 It's in the public domain.
37:00 Jaksha Girani was the managing director.
37:03 And they reduced employment.
37:07 That is not due to COVID,
37:08 but due to the liberalization and the flaws of the product,
37:13 weaknesses of the product.
37:15 They reduced employment in Tata Steel from, I think,
37:18 90, 100,000 to about 40,000.
37:20 It's not even in the public domain.
37:23 We don't even know that you had a 60% reduction
37:27 in the workforce.
37:29 And as it was told to me,
37:31 I was not in Tata at that time,
37:33 but subsequently I was curious how this was done.
37:36 So I talked to a lot of people.
37:38 They said, "Take your decision ruthlessly,
37:41 "but implement it with compassion."
37:46 So they decided,
37:47 Girani and his top team,
37:50 that we have no choice but to get to 40,000.
37:54 But how can we implement this compassionately
37:57 for the 60,000?
37:58 And in some of my books and writing,
38:01 I have written about some episodes.
38:03 I won't go into all of that now.
38:05 But the thing that leaps out at me
38:07 is that they said that anybody who's over 55 and is going,
38:11 we will pay him his full basic salary in 360 days.
38:15 - Mm-hmm.
38:16 - In other words, we'll front-end the pain
38:19 that the person is taking and monetize it
38:22 so that he can do something about it.
38:25 So there are many companies,
38:27 it's not just Tata, I'm mentioning Tata
38:29 because I happen to know a little bit about it.
38:31 There are lots of companies which do this.
38:33 The mantra, if I have to leave you with one,
38:37 is take a ruthless decision,
38:38 but implement that decision with compassion.
38:41 - Sure.
38:44 - Yeah, we can do that.
38:46 Next point, next reset point.
38:48 - Okay, okay.
38:49 The third reset point I want to mention
38:54 is understand when analytics and rationality
38:59 have run their course
39:02 and switch your mind and decision-making to intuition.
39:05 Now, in our early stage of our career,
39:11 let me explain it.
39:12 In the early stages of our career,
39:14 you're not trained,
39:15 you're neither trained nor rewarded to be intuitive.
39:18 - Right.
39:20 - You can't come and say, you know,
39:20 I'm 36, 25 years old,
39:23 I'm looking after sales in Orissa.
39:25 I think my feeling is that we should just
39:28 turn the whole place upside down and do POK.
39:30 They'll say, go back to your homework
39:32 and come and make a proper presentation.
39:34 - Mm.
39:35 - Rationality and analytics have a great value.
39:39 And I don't even remotely want to give the impression
39:43 that I'm devalued.
39:44 But by the time you're 35, 40, 45,
39:49 you have been so trained into rationality and analytics
39:52 that you've even forgotten
39:55 there is something called intuition.
39:57 And when you reach the higher echelons
40:01 of business management and leadership,
40:03 you have to fall back on intuition.
40:08 Because rationality would have run its course.
40:11 Example, I want to,
40:15 if somebody has come with a proposal
40:16 to acquire that company,
40:17 if I leave it to my accountants and lawyers,
40:22 they will come and tell me the valuation.
40:25 But at the end of the day,
40:27 it's like my wife buys us saris.
40:30 There is no valuation for the sari.
40:32 If she likes it and you want to keep your wife happy,
40:35 just tell her,
40:35 "I see that you want to keep your wife happy.
40:37 Just put me some credit card."
40:39 And you buy it, right?
40:41 You use your intuition.
40:43 I stumbled upon the reality.
40:47 And I wrote a book on that.
40:48 My first book was "The Case of the Monsoil Manager"
40:51 was exactly on that.
40:52 That the most important decisions in your personal life
40:55 are taken through intuition and not through rationality.
40:58 Like whom to marry.
40:59 If you carry a Jotpad in your pocket
41:03 and keep writing each woman's characteristics
41:07 and arrive at 6.5 versus 7.2,
41:10 like they do in the beauty contest,
41:12 you'll never get married.
41:14 Or if you do get married, it won't last.
41:16 How do you select a CEO?
41:20 Yes, the HR department gives you all the papers and so on.
41:23 But at the end of the day,
41:25 you have that half an hour, one hour, two hour interview,
41:28 and then you decide in beauty.
41:30 How do the governors of the Reserve Bank
41:31 choose interest rates?
41:33 I mean, governors of the Reserve Bank
41:34 will kill me for saying this.
41:36 But at the end of all the analysis,
41:38 it comes to 25 basis points up or down, right?
41:40 If you change it by five basis points,
41:43 you won't get any newspaper coverage.
41:45 If you do it by 50, you'll get more.
41:47 So it comes to 25.
41:48 You use your judgment, you use your intuition.
41:52 How do you decide to acquire a company?
41:54 By intuition.
41:55 So many of the major decisions in our life,
41:57 both professional and personal,
42:00 are taken through intuition.
42:02 And I regard intuition not as an alternative to analytics,
42:06 but as a continuum.
42:09 So when you've exhausted the capacity of analytics
42:12 to maybe shed any more light,
42:14 then you have to take a jump and get edge of the cliff.
42:17 Are you going to jump or are you not going to jump?
42:20 And we take a decision.
42:21 Sometimes it goes right, sometimes it goes wrong.
42:24 Hope we did not a life-settling decision.
42:26 But you do make acquisitions,
42:28 you do marry the wrong person.
42:30 You know, you do have things that go wrong
42:32 in that situation.
42:34 So I want to advocate
42:38 that the third reset idea is to think about
42:42 how to develop your intuition.
42:45 And I've written a book on it,
42:47 and I could keep you here for the next long time.
42:52 And I don't have a masterful way of doing this.
42:55 But it largely comes through immersion and reflection.
42:58 You can follow yogic techniques,
43:03 you can follow meditative techniques,
43:04 you can follow spiritual techniques,
43:07 you can follow highly personal techniques,
43:09 but whichever it is,
43:10 if you don't make an attempt to develop your intuition,
43:13 you won't get developed.
43:16 That's the message I would like to give.
43:17 - No, it's interesting.
43:18 - And that's what I do.
43:19 - You talk about intuition.
43:20 It's interesting you talk about intuition.
43:23 And I'm sure you've read Daniel Kahneman.
43:26 And Daniel Kahneman says that intuition works
43:29 when the feedback loop is fast and strong.
43:34 So for example, in driving,
43:36 I mean, since your feedback is every day you're driving,
43:39 so you know exactly how to react to every single thing.
43:42 So intuition works perfectly.
43:45 Similarly, in medical sciences,
43:48 anesthetists get that feedback within minutes,
43:51 or worst case a few hours.
43:54 So therefore your ability to develop intuition
43:57 and therefore decide based on intuition
44:00 can be very, very,
44:01 decision making can be a lot better.
44:05 However, in chemotherapy, for example,
44:07 where the feedback loop is fairly slow.
44:10 - Chemotherapy, sorry?
44:13 - Chemotherapy, long gestation.
44:16 - Chemo. - Chemotherapy.
44:17 - Chemo, chemo.
44:19 Yeah, chemotherapy where the feedback loop is fairly,
44:23 it's slow.
44:24 I mean, you don't get to know whether it worked
44:26 or not worked in a certain situation
44:29 until a few months or years.
44:33 So therefore, in those cases where there is slow feedback,
44:38 intuitive decision making may not be very rewarding.
44:41 This is his analysis.
44:48 - So what do you say?
44:49 I mean, is there a good way to develop intuition?
44:52 Because in the end it is about feedback loop, right?
44:56 - But I cannot challenge a Nobel Prize winner.
45:02 So I don't tend to.
45:05 He was talking of it in a particular way,
45:10 but I'm talking of it in a different way.
45:12 Whether they are both related,
45:14 I'm not in a position to,
45:15 I'm talking about experientially what I've been.
45:18 - Right.
45:19 - And here's my take,
45:21 that whether the decision,
45:23 the feedback loop is frequent or not,
45:26 when you're left with no choice but to use your intuition,
45:30 because you've exhausted,
45:31 then you use it, right?
45:35 And when you use that intuition,
45:38 your brain is automatically indulging in two activities
45:42 or should indulge in two activities.
45:44 I call them immersion and reflection.
45:47 Immersion means you're deeply involved with that subject.
45:51 You know, you can't just visit it for that morning
45:54 and take in,
45:55 you must be deeply involved with that.
45:59 And the second thing about immersion is
46:03 that you are looking at the object itself.
46:06 I'm gonna illustrate this in a moment to an example.
46:09 Reflection means you're not focused on the object,
46:12 you're looking at the context of the object,
46:15 the surroundings.
46:16 So let me take a real example,
46:17 otherwise it sounds a bit ethereal.
46:20 - Yeah.
46:21 - When I was young,
46:23 I was born and raised in Calcutta.
46:25 I had to learn many languages.
46:29 Hindi was my first language,
46:30 Bengali was being spoken,
46:32 English and Hindi and Tamil at home.
46:34 So, you know, many Indians are like that,
46:36 I'm not special.
46:40 And I was very incensed that a member of parliament
46:44 called Purushottam Das Tandon
46:46 had pressurized the then Nehru government
46:50 to make Hindi the compulsory national language
46:52 and the basis for all entrance exams.
46:54 You know, IAS and all that.
46:56 And I must have been 14, 15, 16.
46:59 IAS was certainly within my choice set.
47:04 And I found what a severe disadvantage I would be
47:07 if I had to write a whole paper in Hindi.
47:10 And you'll also remember that at that time,
47:12 Tamil Nadu, Madras, it was called,
47:14 went up in flames, all that, you know.
47:17 Now, if I recreate artificially
47:22 what must have been going through Mr. Nehru's mind,
47:25 I wasn't privy to it,
47:27 and I have not read it anywhere either.
47:29 When he focused on the object,
47:31 should Hindi be national language,
47:34 it is there as a policy.
47:36 He said, yes, it should be there.
47:39 But perhaps I can alleviate the situation
47:41 by giving 15 years time.
47:42 So he said it will be a national language for 15 years,
47:45 until then it will be, you know, concurrent.
47:48 Then somebody else looked at the context.
47:53 Why is a Tamil fellow protesting against Hindi?
47:57 What looked absolutely self-evident
47:59 to Purushottam Das Tandon
48:01 looked absolutely ludicrous to Kamaraj, you know.
48:06 And they found that these two don't speak to each other,
48:11 you know, and that's the problem.
48:13 So how can you make a Tamil fellow take interest?
48:17 Not by running Dakshin Bharti Prachar Sabha,
48:19 which is what was going on at that time.
48:22 We all went to Dakshin Bharti Prachar Sabha to learn Hindi.
48:26 But some magical angels arrived from heaven.
48:31 One was called Raj Kapoor, one was called Dilip Kumar,
48:33 one was called Devalan, one was called Ashok Kumar.
48:36 They spoke in Hindi, they made love to lovely little girls,
48:41 they ran around trees, they sang songs which were endearing.
48:45 It doesn't matter which language you are in.
48:49 Bollywood became the primary propagator for Hindi.
48:54 Even Urdu, I would go to the extent of seeing, you know.
48:59 And one day, about 20 years ago,
49:01 I was in Tiruthirappundi, maybe 10 years ago.
49:03 And Tiruthirappundi, people can't even pronounce that name,
49:06 north in the Vidyas.
49:08 And those guys were watching Kuman Pannega Karuppati.
49:11 And I said, "Nadiya, I told him in Tamil,
49:14 "do you understand a word or what's going on?"
49:16 And he put on his South Indian Tamil drawl and said,
49:19 "Sir, when a one-crore is involved, how does it matter which language it is?"
49:23 That's what I mean by the reflection.
49:26 And very often, when you're faced with, even in some of the current situations,
49:32 I don't pretend to have a prescription for COVID or Swachh Bharat or
49:39 the various activities that are going on in the national domain.
49:43 If you think of the object and the context,
49:46 you start to get insights which you otherwise may not have got.
49:51 That's my take.
49:55 I love telling the story of this Hindi,
49:57 because it looks so obvious to most Hindi-speaking people
50:00 that everybody else should learn Hindi.
50:02 But you go and look at the guys who are living in Bangalore
50:04 and find out how many of them have learned Kannada.
50:06 You get a very, very close score.
50:08 Right.
50:10 Sure.
50:12 We'll take a five-second break again and come back.
50:15 And when we come back, we'll take some audience questions.
50:19 [MUSIC]
50:25 RR Gifting. Gifting for memorable brands. Call now.
50:31 So welcome back.
50:32 The first question is from Harnal Oza,
50:34 CEO and founder of Hyperlink Infosystem.
50:37 "In this situation, can you please share some tips
50:42 that can help startups and small businesses
50:46 stay competitive and overcome this crisis?
50:51 And what is it that leaders can do to keep the teams motivated?"
50:54 I think part of that you've talked about.
50:58 I want to just make this response as focused as the question is.
51:10 I don't see why startups should be different from grown-ups.
51:15 I'm talking of the answer to the question.
51:17 I'm not talking of in general.
51:19 Right.
51:21 If you say that they're expecting a cyclone in Bombay,
51:25 you say, well, these are the precautions you should take.
51:29 Then the precautions apply equally to the children as well as to the adults.
51:34 So I don't see that the startups have any special.
51:37 If you're trying to make sure your balance sheet is well-stocked,
51:43 if you have lived an expensive life,
51:51 even though you're a startup,
51:53 and there are lots of startups who get billion-dollar valuations,
51:56 which are made an expensive life,
51:58 I'm afraid they'll have to come to terms with the situation they are in,
52:01 as going on right now, including the mighty SoftBank and the Vision Fund.
52:06 I think startups must also appreciate
52:10 that the rules of the game are not dissimilar.
52:13 They may play them slightly differently.
52:15 Like tennis is tennis,
52:17 but I may have a junior tennis court compared to a senior tennis court.
52:21 And if startups can therefore say that I must make sure that I protect cash,
52:27 I must make sure that I take care of people.
52:32 Now, all this will sound like motherhood and apple pie,
52:35 but that's what you would say to Tata Steel or Indus Arte even also.
52:38 I don't see why the startup should expect a different message.
52:42 The truth is that the startups come to the crisis,
52:47 or the crisis comes to the startups at a time when their health is very poor.
52:51 And if your health is poor when the crisis comes,
52:55 like we say the elderly people now with, what is it called?
52:59 Comorbidities, that's the word.
53:02 Diabetes or cancer or something.
53:04 Then your starting position is difficult.
53:07 Startups should also understand that bad growth is not in their interest.
53:14 So I hope I've answered this question.
53:18 Sure.
53:20 So now I'm just going to take a general question
53:23 because we've talked about leadership at length.
53:27 So this is from Mukul Vashish, Director at R Solutions.
53:30 As the company and workplaces open up,
53:33 it seems the government is putting the onus of protecting people on establishments and their management.
53:38 Do you think the establishments are even prepared for such a responsibility?
53:43 And what steps do you think they can take to ensure a safe environment?
53:48 You know, I'm a great believer that wisdom rests with people out there.
53:57 Even for decision making in the course of this talk,
54:02 I have mentioned that you must, the higher the leader and the more uncertain the environment,
54:08 the more he must rely on devolution, consultation, dialogue and stuff like that.
54:13 So in that sort of train of thought, I think the government is right,
54:18 not to pass the buck, but to request.
54:21 Just like in a family, if you have four grown up sons,
54:25 the family may say, "Hey, each of you take care of your own kids,"
54:29 as we navigate this particular uncertainty.
54:32 So I see nothing wrong.
54:34 It's the job of a family, in this case a company or a startup or a hospital or a club or whatever,
54:41 to seek advice and take the necessary steps.
54:44 For example, I have received on the email from the Institute of Occupational Health,
54:51 what can a building society in Bombay do to protect itself and its members?
54:57 That I would not have thought of.
55:02 In the same way, they have also put out, and it's free,
55:07 they have put out another list of SOPs for companies and offices.
55:12 And I'm very happy to send it to you because they have said,
55:15 "If you want to forward this to other people, please do so."
55:17 And Mr. Ara can certainly get it through me, through you, if he's interested.
55:24 So there are a lot of people with lots of knowledge and expertise.
55:28 The trouble is, it's an added burden.
55:31 And I understand that angst, that, "Oh God, we've got to do all this also."
55:37 Who wants to have a building society where your forehead is pushed with a thermometer
55:42 for every person who comes in?
55:44 But it has to be done.
55:46 Sure.
55:48 Thank you so much, Gopal.
55:50 I really enjoyed the discussion.
55:52 I wish we had more time, but thank you so much anyway.
55:55 Thank you, and all the very best.
55:57 Thank you, and good luck to you. Bye.
55:59 Yeah.
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