Nahel 'execution' reflects ruthless form of 'French racism' engulfed in 'denial, hubris & arrogance'
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Transcript
00:00 Well, let's get some more analysis and we can speak now to Christel Fleming, who is
00:03 a professor of sociology and Africana studies at Stony Brook University, who joins us now
00:07 from New York.
00:10 First of all, Professor, I just want to ask you, one French politician, in fact, the leader
00:14 of the Green Party here said that, quote, "What I see on this video is the execution
00:20 by the police of a 17-year-old kid in France in 2023 in broad daylight.
00:26 I heard a policeman lie, his colleague lie, the prosecutor lie and the media lie.
00:33 You get the feeling that our police is becoming like America's."
00:37 Can I just start by asking you for your reaction to that?
00:41 Well, first, let me express my condolences to the family of Nael and his loved ones.
00:50 I have been traveling to France for over 20 years, and I can attest that the situation
00:58 for French people of Arab origin, for French black people as well, has only gotten worse
01:04 with regards to police violence.
01:07 You can say that it looks quite similar to what happens on a very frequent basis here
01:12 in the US, with one important difference.
01:16 And that is when this happens in the United States, French authorities, French activists,
01:23 we see French liberals and leftists call out racism, rightly call it out, when it happens
01:29 in the US.
01:31 And when these things happen in France, and unfortunately the statistics and studies have
01:35 shown it's been happening, the killing of French people by police has been on the rise
01:41 last year, and 2022 was a record year with most of those killings targeting Arab and
01:49 black people.
01:51 When this happens in France, we do not see that same clarity conviction in calling it
01:56 out as racism.
01:58 And in fact, we see quite the opposite.
02:00 We see denial at every level of authority, every level of the government in France.
02:06 And frankly, as a scholar of racism, as a concerned citizen of the world, as a human
02:13 being, I am disgusted by the level of denial and the hubris and arrogance that the particular
02:20 form of French racism takes.
02:23 You know, I think of some strange parallels to the Titan disaster that just happened.
02:28 We had all the experts saying, this will get people killed.
02:33 So many warnings coming from those who study these issues.
02:38 It was a disaster that was preventable and predictable, and a teenager got killed needlessly.
02:44 So again, we see the impact, the deadly impact of denial and arrogance and hubris.
02:51 And I really wonder how many more people have to experience this level of brutality before
02:58 there is an acknowledgement that systemic racism in France is real and needs to be addressed.
03:03 Sure.
03:05 And obviously addressing systemic racism in any country is going to take time.
03:11 Let's talk about the longer term and the shorter term.
03:13 Let's first talk about the short term.
03:15 What do the authorities here in France, if you could advise them, what do they need to
03:19 say?
03:20 What sort of things do they need to do if they want to make sure that the situation
03:26 is calmed down as quickly as possible, that there isn't violence on the streets across
03:32 the Paris suburbs and perhaps the suburbs of other major French cities as well?
03:35 How would you advise them to proceed?
03:38 My sincere and expert advising would be to address and acknowledge the violence caused
03:45 by the French state itself involving the police, which is directed in a discriminatory fashion
03:53 against racialized minorities in that country.
03:57 And I think we are far beyond the point where discourse and words are enough.
04:03 We need to see actual policies that again have to begin with an acknowledgement of reality.
04:10 I read that President Macron said that what happened to Niall was inexcusable and inexplicable.
04:18 But I have to tell you, he's only right about one of those things.
04:22 It is inexcusable.
04:25 It is not inexplicable.
04:27 This isn't rocket science.
04:28 It's racism.
04:29 And until the French president, the government, and those in positions of authority are willing
04:36 to acknowledge that and then enact policies to address it, begin to take those steps,
04:42 unfortunately, we will see the continued escalation of these forms of violence.
04:46 And I'm not talking about the violence that you see on your screen.
04:50 In fact, I'm not sure that I would call a fire violence.
04:55 What is violence is what happens when police take the life of a teenage youth for no reason
05:03 other than the fact that they have been enabled and empowered to do so by the authorities.
05:07 So again, my number one suggestion and advice, which comes from experts and advocates on
05:15 the ground in France, is that we need to move beyond discourse to an acknowledgement of
05:21 reality and to listen to the human rights organizations, the European Commission Against
05:27 Racism and Intolerance, the experts that have been pointing this out, warning France for
05:33 years that action needs to be taken to address and acknowledge systemic racism in France.
05:39 Yeah, I'm being told that we're out of time.
05:42 I'd love to ask you some more questions, but I just want to make that point that, you know,
05:45 the fact that a camera phone was used here to prove that the police weren't telling the
05:49 truth, you know, the police really can't think they're going to get away with making up convenient
05:55 versions of events any longer.
05:57 And that draws parallels with some stories from the United States from the last couple
06:01 of years as well.
06:02 Thank you so much.
06:04 Thank you, Crystal Fleming, professor of sociology at Stony Brook University in New York.
06:08 Thank you very much indeed.
06:09 Thanks for having me.