Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00Well, Acharya Prashant, it is a true honor to be here with you today talking about climate
00:09change and global warming as probably the biggest fundamental challenge facing humanity
00:18and the other creatures of the earth at this moment in time.
00:24I am the Director of the Graduate Programs in Sustainability at Bard College in New
00:29York.
00:30I am an economist, and along with my colleagues, we are heading up an effort to create a worldwide
00:38teach-in on climate injustice scheduled for March 30, 2022, and then carrying on into 2023
00:47and 2024.
00:48We are seeking to really tap into the deep concern that so many educators, teachers, students,
00:56staff members at high schools, at colleges, at universities around the world have about
01:02climate change.
01:02And our belief is that most students now understand basically that the fundamental science of climate
01:12change, they get that we're putting pollution in the atmosphere that's trapping heat, that's
01:17causing the planet to warm up.
01:18But by and large, they're just in despair about this, and as a consequence, are ignoring
01:25it because there's nothing they feel like they can do.
01:28And so they just live their lives, you know, kind of pretending that it's not happening.
01:32And the idea of the teach-in is that with these thousands, tens of thousands, millions of educators
01:40around the world who care about climate change, are concerned about it, that we can help move
01:45these students from a sense of despair to a real sense of possibility and agency.
01:50Because the fact is, this is an incredibly exciting and decisive moment to be a human on this planet,
01:58because more than any other generation before ours, and before a young people's generation,
02:05they have the ability to profoundly change the future.
02:07The work that they can do in the next year, five years, 10 years, 15 years,
02:13will have an impact not only on their own lives and the lives of their children, but in fact,
02:19for every human being who's going to walk the face of the planet from now until the end of time,
02:24and for millions of species. So that's our mission. And we're eager, again, to get thousands,
02:34tens of thousands of schools around the world globally involved. We have translated our website
02:42into Hindi and have got resources to support teachers. But the basic idea is a bottom-up conversation,
02:49tapping into existing concerns, existing knowledge, and helping communities move towards solutions.
02:56So I'm very eager to get your take on how this might work and kind of what the basic issues are
03:03and what the basic obstacles are.
03:05I'm very glad to be speaking to you, Dr. Iban.
03:09Iban. And I'm really happy that someone like you, who has put in so much of interest and effort
03:18in this most important area facing all of us, the entire humankind, and obviously the young population
03:27population is here to talk to. And yes, as you said, it's a very critical juncture for this generation
03:42and rather for the history of mankind in general.
03:49We might use this crisis to bring about a rather fundamental shift in our consciousness, in the way we live,
04:02we approach life, we approach each other, we approach natural resources, or we could just
04:10squander this opportunity. And the worst case scenario is we might just move towards our own obliteration.
04:20But yes, as you put so much emphasis on hope, obviously we have to understand that our basic nature,
04:29our fundamental nature is of wisdom and understanding, and that's what we must stand by.
04:36And that's where we stand. You see, I'll straight away introduce you to my position on this.
04:55See, it's a man-made thing, right? When we talk of climate change, the word anthropogenic is the most
05:06important. It's a basic thing, but I'm reiterating because that's the thing we give the least attention to.
05:15We are treating climate change as if it is something outside of us, as if some asteroid from outer space
05:28came over and delivered all the gases and trapped all the heat in our atmosphere.
05:37I want all of us to pay attention to the fact that we have done it. It is our action. And every action is representative of the state of the actor.
05:51We are in a particular state internally and therefore we are doing what we are doing externally.
05:58Now, our internal state has brought about this external action, this external state. And we are not addressing the root cause.
06:09We are not addressing the way we are and the way we have been probably all throughout our history.
06:16We do not want to address that because probably that's too painful and that would cause too tectonic a shift in our entire life system.
06:26So, we want to treat it as one of the problems that face us. That's a very fragmented approach.
06:36Hence, the solutions that we are thinking of are also pretty external in nature.
06:43So, we want to move to greener technologies. We want to have carbon sequestering mechanisms. We want countries to pledge for reforestation. We want auto manufacturers to come up with newer technologies and such things.
07:03And countries scribble with each other, who should bear the brunt and then issues of climate justice and such things crop up.
07:12The thing is, I want us to inquire into it. Are we even understanding where the whole thing is coming from, really?
07:23And if we do not understand that, is it not a fundamental conclusion that we will never be able to solve this problem and all the actions that we are trying to have as remedial actions would just be consolations.
07:42We would be entertaining ourselves and we would rather gratifying ourselves that we are doing something meaningful and fruitful and nothing would come out of it.
07:55And I am not just hypothesizing in a vacuum. You see, we started taking this thing a bit seriously in 1990. That's the watershed year.
08:07And we are more than three decades from there now. And not only have we failed to reduce or neutralize carbon, the fact is today we are releasing 20 to 40% more carbon than we used to do three decades back.
08:28And that's with all our climate action. And there is really no hope that we are going to achieve carbon neutrality any soon.
08:40My country, India, for example, even as a matter of pledge has quoted 2070. Now that to me is just too far off.
08:53And this kind of action is just too insufficient. So we are doing it. We are doing it. And there are two things about us that are causing it.
09:07They are so fundamental that we don't even talk about them. Those two things are the numbers that we are and the numbers that are represented by our per capita consumption.
09:22And even these two are fundamentally one. The inbuilt human tendency to take consumption as an indicator of the fulfillment or success of one's life.
09:41That's the reason we multiply and that's the reason we want to consume more and more. And climate change is hardly anything but a function of our numbers on this planet, our population and the per capita consumption by each person of our species.
10:02Unfortunately, irrespective of the variations in culture, thought, religion, ethnicity, all that we have across the world, about one thing, we all are fully in agreement.
10:20And that is that we all need to have a good time by consuming more and more. Be it the Indian, the Chinese, the American, the African, anybody, we all want to have a happy life.
10:34And about a happy life, the thing is consumption. Consume more and let there be more people who can consume more. So the slogan really is more to consume more.
10:47And nobody seems to want to address that because that is just too explosive an issue probably, especially in a democratic setup.
10:54The fundamental thing is we are just too many. And if we remain as many as we are, then I don't want to sound nihilist or something, but I don't really see hope unless we address that one thing.
11:10Equally, if we can address that one thing, especially to youngsters, then obviously there is a lot of hope and a great possibility and that possibility will then not relate only to climate change, but to everything that we do.
11:23As human beings, we will be able to lead richer, deeper, more meaningful lives, more loving lives, lives of compassion, lives of less strife and lives that have a certain fulfillment.
11:36So that's my simple position in a nutshell. Obviously, we'll be going into the nuances of everything, but I thought it would be better to just put everything on the table right away.
11:52That's such a clear statement of the challenge that we're in. I mean, fundamentally, there's eight and a half billion of us, soon to be nine, soon to be 10.
12:03Half the time.
12:04Half the folks on the planet are barely getting by and living on a few dollars a day and everybody is aspiring to more.
12:12And this has led us to already be fighting over water and topsoil and fish and forests and biodiversity, and it's the fundamental reason the planet is heating up.
12:23I would maybe differ with you a bit because I think that in the long run humans need to figure out how to come into the right relationship with themselves and with the planet in terms of this quest for more.
12:42I think that with the climate issue in particular, there is a window in which technology can buy us time.
12:51And so I believe, you know, there is sort of good news on sort of the endless numbers of people on the planet.
13:02You know, population growth rates are slowing down finally.
13:05China, I believe this year, for the first time, has tipped into a negative growth for population.
13:15So I'm hopeful that humanity can, we can see our way through, you know, and we can stop at 10 billion and then slowly have the population decline, create more space for people, create more space for creatures.
13:30But I feel like we're at this moment, this critical juncture where we have to get this right.
13:36Technology can buy us time, but I agree fundamentally, it's how do humans heal themselves and really develop a healthy relationship with each other and with the planet.
13:49Dr. Iban, I too want to be optimist on that count.
13:54In fact, because I want us to be there in the medium run at least, and I want us to not only exist, but exist in a healthy way, in a fulfilling way.
14:09Therefore, I want to be realistic about the threats that face us.
14:16You see, yes, that's very true that as economies prosper, then birth rates go down and at some point we achieve population stability.
14:31But then again, I want us to inquire into what makes people in a developed place have fewer kids.
14:41Is it because they become full of empathy and concern? Is that what is happening in, let's say, Japan or Germany?
14:49And what causes people in a place like, let's say, let's say, Bangladesh or parts of India, still in the north, to have relatively very high fertility rates?
15:07Is it because they are intrinsically violent people compared to the Japanese or the Germans? No, that's not the thing.
15:14Even when the fertility rates are going down, they are going down because of the desire to consume life even more deeply.
15:28I do not want to spend child on the kid because I want to rather spend time vacationing and touring the globe.
15:35Now, my question is, having a child has a great carbon footprint.
15:41And if I do not have a child because I want to consume all kinds of material prosperity and I want to be a globe trotter, I want to be flying, let's say, 30 to 40 days per year,
15:56is that going to reduce the carbon footprint compared to the decision of having a child or is it going to be just equal to that?
16:03So, mere reduction of population in itself will not be sufficient because the reduction in population itself will be a byproduct of prosperity.
16:15And prosperity itself has a carbon footprint.
16:17So, please tell me how is this prosperity going to help when prosperity itself means carbon?
16:22Prosperity means carbon, our emotions mean carbon, everything that we do simply means carbon because at the center of our existence is a lot of carbon.
16:32It is indeed. No, and I agree with you. I mean, it is essentially the reason that people are having fewer children and not only in the wealthiest countries,
16:46but as I said, also in China now is fundamentally they feel like they can't afford them because of the expectations that life is about consumption
17:00and is about having that car and that apartment and all of those things.
17:05And so, yeah, I'd love to hear how do we then, from your perspective, make that transition to a better and more healthy relationship with each other and with the planet and de-emphasize the need to have a closet full of clothes that you never wear or, you know,
17:29three cars. And, you know, how do we move in that direction?
17:34First of all, I want to give due credit and acknowledgement to technology. I'm just not decrying the role of technology. We need better technologies today.
17:47But I see their role more as that of NLG6. There is a lot of pain. There is a lot of current immediate pain. And therefore, we need better technologies to manage that pain. Technology cannot really cure this situation, but can give us a temporary relief.
18:09Also, it can give us a longer rope with which to maneuver our way towards a solution. So, the window that we have, I suppose that's what you said, the window that we have is broadened by technology.
18:27So, first of all, yes, due credit to technology. Now, I want to put forward the reservations that I have with respect to technology. Technology shows us a false DOM. So, if I, for example, get an air conditioner, in India, we have these star ratings on ACs.
18:49And if you have a higher star rating, it means that the power consumption is relatively lower. And India is a relatively warm place. And as people get prosperous, one of the first things that they want in their homes is more air conditioners.
19:05Initially, people start with having air conditioner in one of the rooms, and then they want air conditioners in all two rooms, three rooms, and if they have, five rooms.
19:14So, let's say we have a young one in the family who has been sensitized in the school or in the college about the enormity of this problem of climate.
19:27So, he raises his hands up and he says, no, nothing doing, we cannot have so many ACs and it's not good for the climate.
19:35So, the elder sister comes in and says, look, technology has brought in this new AC with a five-star rating and it consumes far lesser power.
19:48Now, that brings us, brings in a false sense of complacency.
19:54We used to have these very antiquated cars that we kind of inherited from the British, ambassador cars.
20:06And they used to be really great instruments of pollution of all kinds, including noise pollution.
20:15So, they were chased away.
20:17Now, you would hardly see any of them on Indian roads.
20:19Now, we have really sleek modern cars.
20:21In fact, we share a lot of them with the Americans, with the Europeans and we have the same models running here.
20:27But what has happened?
20:28What has happened is that the numbers have increased so very exponentially that the total emission count is nowhere close to what we used to have in the 70s or 80s.
20:42So, in spite of better and greener and more efficient technologies on the net, we stand very poorly compared to where we did even four decades back.
20:55So, from a macro perspective, is betterment in technology really helping or is it enabling the consumer of the technology to consume more and more with impunity?
21:09And with the false assurance that, you see, I now have a moral license as well.
21:16I am not a climate offender anymore because the technology that I am consuming is so very green.
21:22No, I have a Tesla now rather than a Suzuki or a Hyundai.
21:27The thing is, is a Tesla really carbon neutral?
21:30Well, you know, I agree with you.
21:34And I think we're getting back to that fundamental question of kind of too many people consuming too many things.
21:40But I would say that there is a shift, right?
21:44I mean, it's not just green technology.
21:47It's low carbon technology.
21:49And again, how do we buy, how do we extend the window?
21:51How do we buy time?
21:53We have to move to a 100% renewable energy economy globally, right?
22:01And stop burning fossil fuels.
22:03That's one thing we have to do.
22:04And the other thing we have to do is figure out how to develop regenerative agriculture techniques that trap carbon in the soil.
22:11And that also raised the income and livelihoods of farmers, small farmers in particular.
22:17So those, those two technology changes, a shift to 100% renewable energy.
22:23And that means battery powered everything.
22:26And, and regenerative agriculture that pulls carbon out of the atmosphere and increases the wellbeing of farmers.
22:33Those are the two things that, that buy us the time.
22:36Now, it is true that there's so much greenwashing though.
22:42And what we have to keep our eye on is, okay, I have all these new technologies, but is my carbon footprint going up or down?
22:49That's, you know, as an individual, as a, as a nation, as a company, that's the measure.
22:55And we can't be distracted by these shiny new toys that claim to be green or whatever, when they really are just enabling more consumption, more pollution.
23:05So, so, so I, I think we can make progress there.
23:11But then again, I, I agree with you that ultimately the problem lies in, in us understanding our relationship with each other and, and, and with the, with the earth.
23:24And, and, and how do we get there?
23:26Because that is the hard, how do we get eight or nine billion people to, to, to have that kind of a consciousness shift?
23:34And, and I think the opportunity, as you say, is now, I mean, because we are in crisis with the earth.
23:40Yes, yes, yes.
23:41I mean, I think we have to begin with our schools.
23:45There has to be a basic self inquiry process with the kids.
23:53I don't know whether it sounds outlandish, as I say it, even if it does, let's think about it.
24:01Why not ask the kids, why are we born?
24:04Why do we exist at all?
24:06And, and we don't want to come from a religion or a scripture or a particular ideology.
24:12Let's have a freewheeling discussion on this thing.
24:14Why do we exist at all?
24:16What's the purpose?
24:17The thing is, once we are sensitized to this question and it becomes something important in the mind,
24:27then the purpose of life is no more mere consumption.
24:33And when you do not have a great purpose, a lively and a, and a lovable purpose to live by,
24:42then the only thing one lives for is just consumption.
24:46And, and unfortunately, it seems that a huge majority of the people across the world are living very purposelessly
24:57and hence they live just to consume.
24:59And that's the reason why we measure the, the progresses of countries through their GDPs.
25:07That's why everything that we want to talk of has to be talked in, in numbers,
25:12and particularly in numbers, denoting money.
25:17I'm again, not a money hater or something.
25:22I'm rather pro-life and pro-purpose.
25:26How will you stop a person from, from, from, from just trying out the next thing in the market if he has nothing else in his life?
25:37And how will you stop a company, let's say a consumer goods company from producing the next attractive and alluring thing,
25:49if the owners and the stakeholders in that company want nothing but money because that's all that they have in their life?
25:58You see, we, we, we talked of reaching carbon neutral stage.
26:04Let's have, let's have great technologies, but I just want to open the question.
26:10Aren't we trusting ourselves just too much?
26:14And if we look at the track record of our species, do we really deserve to be trusted so much?
26:21I mean, right now, one particular element, carbon is the problem.
26:25How do you know and how are you so sure that in the process of dealing with carbon,
26:31we will not make nitrogen the next big problem?
26:34It already is coming up, right?
26:36Nitrogen is an issue, just that this issue will probably become large enough and frightening enough three decades later.
26:43Sulphur is an issue and all kinds of heavy metals are an issue.
26:49But we are not talking of heavy metals so much today.
26:52We are not talking of sulphur so much today.
26:54We are not talking of lead and arsenic so much today.
26:56We are not talking of radioactive stuff so much today.
26:59In mitigating carbon, I'm afraid we are going to prop up some other problem because we as a species,
27:08I'm saying with all humility, are not wise enough.
27:14Though we think we are just too smart.
27:17So we try this, we try that and then we, you know, that's a representative of the oldest civilization speaking to the newest one.
27:29Well, please, please help us. Help me understand how we become wiser.
27:33Because, I mean, I do agree with you. I think the ideal purpose is interesting.
27:39I run an MBA program in sustainability, so it's a business program.
27:44But the vision of the business program is how do you build a business that's actually in business
27:51to solve critical social and environmental problems like climate change?
27:55How do you do that, right?
27:57And, of course, it has to be financially successful. It's a business. It has to make enough money to cover its costs.
28:03But how do you put purpose first and then have financial success and profitability follow?
28:10What's interesting is that this idea of purpose-driven business has become very popular in Europe and the United States, at least,
28:18as kind of the way to, the better way to make money, right?
28:23Because if you can, your people want purpose in life and if a company can provide its employees and its consumers with a sense of purpose,
28:30then it will be more successful.
28:34And then, of course, you get into this question of is it greenwashing, you know, and is it just a smokescreen,
28:42or is the company really dedicated to purpose? And one of my professors, Hunter Lovens, likes to say that hypocrisy is the first step towards real change.
28:52So that if you at least get people committed to purpose, then you can hold them accountable and begin to move them along those dimensions.
29:01But, you know, human life has evolved under capitalism, right, to elevate consumption as the road to status, right?
29:12And status is what we're hard, in my opinion, is what we are hardwired for by evolution, right?
29:19Because, you know, we all seek status in our communities and the way we get it is through consumption.
29:24How can we build societies in which people gain self-worth and status without that?
29:29I mean, we can look to indigenous communities, for example, in the United States.
29:34There's a potlatch culture in the northwestern U.S. where people actually gain status by giving things away.
29:41The more you gave away, the higher the status that you achieved in your community.
29:46Can we make that shift?
29:48No, the thing is, why do we need status at all?
29:53When we said that we need to initiate this discussion among young kids, why don't we ask them this question?
30:00Why do you need to draw your self-worth or self-esteem from somebody else?
30:06Because as long as we need those things from others, we will need a lot of goods from the world.
30:13You see, these two things are so, so very interlinked, no?
30:17I want my self-worth to come from the world.
30:20And I want objects that supply me happiness to come from the world.
30:26Must I be so dependent on the world, it is not a condition of great helplessness?
30:32The world can withdraw its sanction anytime.
30:35The world can withdraw the status it gave to me anytime.
30:38Universities, when they offer degrees, they attach a rider.
30:44Even the degrees can be rescinded.
30:48My degrees are not with me forever.
30:51So if I attach my identity to my educational qualifications, I am running a risk and I will be afraid.
30:57Should I really live like this?
31:00Must I really live like this?
31:01You talked of sustainable businesses in the MBA program you referred to.
31:06And when it comes to MBA programs, I have been through a pretty prestigious MBA program.
31:13So what really is the definition of success?
31:16When do I call myself successful?
31:19And if I do not have a rigorous definition of success, then no amount of money will suffice.
31:28When do I say I am really successful?
31:30A related question is, and you would find it interesting doctor, why do businesses fail?
31:39Why do businesses fail?
31:40I have mentored a few businesses and in my limited experience, I have seen businesses fail
31:46because they fail really to live up to the expectations of their founders.
31:53Businesses don't fail.
31:55They just prove too inadequate compared to the ambition of those who launched them.
32:03So do I really require to be a superstar to have a successful business?
32:09No.
32:10I just need to have modest ambitions and my business will be successful.
32:15Unless the idea is really rotten.
32:18I cannot sell coombs to what I will say two decades later to a person like me.
32:27So unless we have that kind of mindless idea, businesses are not really going to fail and achieving profitability or sustainability in business is not going to be such a herculean task.
32:43But because we want just too much from life, hence businesses fail.
32:49You know, I want to spend this much.
32:52I want to have at least this thick a bottom line and that's not what I am getting.
32:57So I would rather shut shop.
33:00This kind of a thing happens.
33:01I had thought I would come up with an IPO in the fourth year.
33:05You know, a break even in eight months.
33:08And that's not materializing.
33:10And why am I not having that break even thing in eight months flat?
33:14So if I love really what I do, will I ever let it fail?
33:18That's my question.
33:19So let me get back to your idea of engaging young people with the idea of purpose, right?
33:25And helping them understand that purpose is not about dying with the most toys, as we like to say.
33:31You know, that should not be your purpose in life.
33:34And I think that young people are open to that.
33:38I mean, there's something about young people that they are searching for that.
33:43And perhaps that should be the goal of the teach-it, right?
33:46Is to help young people question this sort of commitment to endless consumption.
33:52How do you, if you, and I see many young people in the United States who, you know, are, you know, choosing veganism for climate reasons, you know, living plastic free lives, you know, trying to explore what it really means to be in kind of a right relationship with themselves and the earth.
34:17So how do we, how do we, I mean, but it's a small group, right?
34:24It's 1%, you know, how do we expand that appeal of that, of that kind of questioning of life to more young people?
34:32Teach-ins, just as you are approaching them, we'll have to teach, we'll have to teach.
34:40And I suppose any, any good business today to survive has to first of all generate awareness.
34:50Therefore, it has to be in the business of teaching, right?
34:54Because, because the right product today would need an aware buyer.
35:02You know, you just cannot sell the right thing to the wrong person.
35:09If I am someone conditioned by generations of consumptions of advertising and misplaced cultural values and somebody comes up with a great product or great service, I'm not going to buy that.
35:26So if I come up with something that really is good from an internal perspective, from an ecological perspective, then I'll have to first of all generate awareness.
35:38And I'll have to be prepared to go that extra mile and put in that much of extra effort.
35:45So the business of teaching is what this world needs today.
35:50I'm not saying one has to be, in that sense, just a teacher, but you will have to be a teacher as well.
35:57You want to come up, for example, with a great vegan cafe or a great vegan recipe or a packaged vegan product.
36:07In a place, let's say like North India, where there is not much sensitivity or awareness regarding veganism and where dairy production and consumption is a cultural value.
36:22First of all, you will have to educate the population and you'll have to educate the population to a point where they are prepared to accept the product even if it turns out a little expensive.
36:34Though typically, it won't be extra expensive, but even if it is, education will make it acceptable and affordable to people.
36:45Same thing when it comes to clothes, when it comes to automobiles, when it comes to even tourism destinations, or when it comes to means of gratification.
37:01You know, that's what we need today. We cannot have, you please tell me, but otherwise I'm curious to know, how can I have a great business in a market that does not value that business?
37:16How will I get my employees? How will I get my vendors? How will I get my customers? Even the government is not going to support me.
37:24Rather, I would find that the government is subsidizing my competitor and that competitor is feasting on all kinds of rotten and polluting technologies.
37:33But because that competitor has a market around him, and in a democracy, it's the numbers that matter, so the government seems to be more aligned with him.
37:42How will I survive in the market? So I have to be an educator. I know that's going to be tough.
37:48But then as a young person, when we are talking of that segment, as a young person, I ought to have the stamina for troubles. Why not? That's what would probably make life worth living?
38:02Yes. Yes. Well, I think we're in agreement then that fundamentally education is the key, and that we need people with a different vision of how humans should be living on the planet to become educators.
38:21And I'll just say that for the vision of our teaching really is just to recognize that many, many, many teachers, many, many students, many, many staff members at universities and high schools and secondary schools, they understand the depth of the climate crisis.
38:41They know that this is existential, right? They know that if we do not change course, that we are going to be experiencing a world where in many parts of the world, it will simply be too hot to live, where sea levels will rise, where crops will fail.
38:59And they're frightened of that, right? And it is a moment to really rethink our, what are we doing on this planet, if this is the direction that we're headed.
39:13And so the purpose of the teach-in is to just bring all of those people together and have this conversation.
39:20Yes, we can buy time with technology, right? Yes, we can do that.
39:24But at the end of the day, what is this telling us about humans and the way we're living on the planet?
39:32So that is the purpose of the teach-in. It's really creating a community, a global community of educators and giving them the chance to interact with each other.
39:41We do it on Zoom calls, but also to bring together people in their community with a similar concern to start to have these conversations.
39:49And when we're talking of consumption, doctor, the very basic kind of consumption, food, just as we don't want to talk of our numbers on the planet,
40:07because that becomes an emotive issue in a democratic set-up, we also do not want to talk of our food choices.
40:14But the fact is, and the numbers are out in the open, that food is probably the largest, or if not the largest, the second largest contributor to greenhouse gases emission.
40:26And we don't want to talk of that. And the thing is, carbon-emitting food choices are also mostly food choices that involve cruelty towards animal,
40:42that involve a distorted relationship between our species and the other species.
40:47The thing is, when we say that we must take care of ourselves, that we must care for our future, how will we bring in that kind of self-love?
40:56I invite us to think about it. How will we have that kind of self-love, if we do not have love for the other species that inhibited this planet?
41:04I mean, the very thing on my plate is coming as a result of slaughter, why then will I not be disinterested in stopping the slaughter of the biggest carbon sinks on the planet, the forests?
41:23For the sake of my food, we are killing not just directly, and even as we have spoken over the last 30 minutes or so, millions of animals have been slaughtered in these 30 minutes, just for our appetite.
41:41And not only are these animals being slaughtered, forests are being cleared, just so that we can have farms to raise these animals.
41:50Now, when we are clearing those forests, we are erasing the biggest carbon sinks that we can have, also, we are robbing the species of their habitat, and in doing all that, how are we displaying any kind of self-love?
42:15So, self-love, when it comes to talking of our own interests as species, self-love has to be inseparable from love towards the wider ecosystem.
42:26Unfortunately, that's not what our education is teaching young people.
42:30Otherwise, it's very, very easy to take care of this problem.
42:34All the deadlines that we are setting for ourselves, be it 2030 or 50 or 70, we can overachieve even before those deadlines, because it's we who are doing it.
42:51That's the challenge and that's the opportunity.
42:53It's not being sent down by the gods, it's not being conspired by the aliens, we are doing it, and if we are doing it, we may as well stop it right now.
43:06But to stop it, we require the kind of consciousness that acknowledges itself as the culprit, that acknowledges that it has been living in ignorance, and it has been living in ignorance all throughout these centuries, just that the ignorance was not displaying its devastating consequences because our numbers were not so large.
43:26And because the industrial revolution had yet not happened, therefore we did not have this much power to destruct in our hands, now, we have numbers, and we have the industry, and we have the technology, and the know-how, the knowledge, and we have great power, and all this is a very, very explosive combination.
43:47So, that's where we are, and it's a very slippery slope, very slippery slope.
43:55So, I'm fighting it in my little way, on a daily basis, and I see the challenges, and the challenge that I'm seeing, Professor, is really not technological.
44:10Jealousy, you cannot treat through technology.
44:13Ignorance, you cannot treat through technology.
44:16Lovelessness, you cannot treat through technology.
44:18All the, all the, all the, in, human darkness within, you cannot deal through technology.
44:25And when I talk of veganism, or when I talk of plastic, or when I talk of population, when I talk of climate, the obstacle that I face, I repeat, is not technological.
44:36It's not that people are not aware of better technologies, it's not that people are not aware of the numbers, it's just that people have not been sensitized enough, people are not loving enough.
44:49The, the norms that we have, the norms that we have, the norms post the Enlightenment period in Europe, the religious values that we have, the distorted religious values, that is not the, not the really spiritual values, they are not at all conducive towards solution of this problem.
45:10Education, I think, unfortunately, unfortunately, is the only thing that can save us, we require, I mean, huge armies of dedicated educators, we require tremendous propaganda, we require publicity in all ways, in all forms, we require people to go knocking each home, and then, and get the doors open, and barge in, and have tutorials.
45:38And, and if that can happen, and if that can happen, then probably we can have governments to, to tax the right things, to subsidize the right things, and only then we can have public policy in the right direction.
45:50Well, you know, I, I certainly, as an educator myself, and someone who is organizing a worldwide teach-in on climate injustice, that is a very well-spoken position.
46:02And, and, and, I, I, I agree with you in, that, that there are so many solutions that are within our grasp, and diet is, is obviously a huge piece of that.
46:18And, and, and, and engaging people with, in that conversation is, is part of what we want to do for the teach-in.
46:26And, and I think food is, is a wonderful avenue towards engaging people into their, their sense of relationship with the planet.
46:34Because it doesn't, you don't have to go very far from what's on your plate to understand how you're, how you're impacting the world.
46:41For me, I wrote a book about 15 years ago called Fighting for Love in the Century of Extinction.
46:47And it, in some ways, it kind of goes the other way, which is, how do you, what is it that, that motivates to even, us to even care about, about the species of the world?
47:01Why, why do we, why, why is that the right thing to do?
47:03And it, fundamentally, it's because if you step out into the world, and you just look at the sky, and, and you touch a handful of earth, or you smell the smell coming from the bushes, that's something we don't want to lose.
47:24It's what we are losing, right, is that connection to that world outside, and, and that's a big part of, of human purpose, I think, is protecting that world so that it will be there for, for our children and, for all, all humans to come.
47:41The thing there is, to go out and, and be there with the natural aromas, and, and just, just, just watch an animal, or if it is safe enough, just, just touch a small animal, or, or, or lie under the starry sky, and be able to pause and meditate.
48:01You, first of all, need values that tell you, that you do not need to be chasing success all the time.
48:07You know, think of an undergrad student, why will he spend his nights watching the starry sky, if he could rather slog for grades and ensure a better job offer?
48:20I'm not saying one should not study and not secure better grades, but the thing is, do we have a culture, do we have the kind of education that incentivizes reflectiveness, meditativeness, basic spiritual values like self-inquiry, or as teachers, we are all the time motivating our students and rather pressurizing them.
48:50To, to, to do this, to be better, to achieve more, to have higher grades and CGPA and a better job offer and internship there and a job there and all those things.
49:01You know, if the, if the student's success is measured by all these things, please tell me why will he just spend time sitting by the sea and doing nothing?
49:13Don't get me wrong, I'm not advising that one should just sit by sea and do nothing.
49:17No, one should, one should actually, for a large part of a day, one should do that every, every month.
49:26You know, that, that is, that is a beautiful way to spend your life.
49:29We will do well together, doctor.
49:31Yes, we, we will.
49:32And you know, we're coming to the end of our, of our hour and I'm just so grateful to you for the work you're doing and for the perspective that you're sharing.
49:40Um, it's not one we hear often, uh, because, uh, uh, we are all so caught up, um, caught up in this race, uh, that's, uh, that we need, we need to step off.
49:55So, um, thank you very, very much for the opportunity to talk with you today.
49:59It was a wonderful hour, wonderful hour.
50:01And I'm sure we'll have more such conversations in the future.
50:05Okay.
50:06Good to speak with you.
50:07Great.
50:08Thank you so much.