Justice Sonia Sotomayor questions attorneys during Oral Arguments for Mahmoud v. Taylor, a case involving LGBTQ+ books in schools.
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00:00There could be situations where it could be unworkable.
00:03The board never raised that until after this litigation commenced.
00:06When they announced a withdrawal, they said it was because every student needed to read the inclusivity books.
00:11When they produced documents in response to an open records request, there was no mention of it not being workable.
00:18When parents met with the superintendents, this is in the Hisham Garty Declaration at JA44,
00:26the reason given there was inclusivity.
00:28There was no mention of administrability until the litigation has been filed.
00:35Even then, all the board was able to come up with was an argument that in one instance in one school,
00:40there were dozens of students who opted out,
00:42where if the average school size in Montgomery County is 700 students across at least a dozen classrooms,
00:48you're talking maybe one student per classroom.
00:50That hardly compares with the one in eight students who are opted out for individual education programs.
00:5515% of students in Montgomery County who are taking English for speakers of a second language.
01:02The board's own opt-outs that are required from the same instruction required by state law to be opted out
01:08when the same books are read in health class.
01:11Counsel, that wasn't the basis of the district court or the circuit court's denial of preliminary injunction.
01:21They never reached the issue of whether or not there was disruption or what the motive was for taking away the opt-out.
01:29What they decided was that there wasn't coercion here, that there was mere exposure.
01:37I understood from the record that all that was required is that the books be put on the bookshelf.
01:45If that's all that's required, is that coercion?
01:49Well, that's not what's required here.
01:50We know it's undisputed.
01:51Please answer my question.
01:52If all that's required is exposure, our clients are not contesting that that would be, are not saying that would be a burden.
01:58All right, then let's go to the second step.
02:01Let's say there's compulsion to read the book out loud.
02:06Is merely being exposed to the reading of the book out loud coercion?
02:12Well, even the board admits that exposure could be a burden.
02:15And, for example, they say at 25, note 7 of their brief, that if they were exposed to pictures of Muhammad, that that would be a burden that they would allow an opt-out for.
02:24And certainly whether there's a burden...
02:26Let's go back.
02:26Is it generally that the mere exposure, haven't we made very clear that the mere exposure to things that you object to is not coercion?
02:37It would really depend on the individual religious beliefs.
02:41Here, for example, our Catholic clients...
02:43So what you're saying is that the exposure of children to the fact that two people are getting married is coercion?
02:52That two people of the same sex are getting married is coercion?
02:56So our clients have not raised that objection.
02:58I suppose someone could raise that, but...
03:00Let's talk about what in the portrayals, so that the mere reading or looking at the pictures, like looking at an image of Muhammad, would be coercion.
03:13Because I'm looking at the books.
03:15I've looked through all of them.
03:17They have two men, little Bobby's wedding, where they're getting married.
03:25One is black and one is white in this rendition of the book.
03:29I had one with mice.
03:32The two male mice looked identical to me.
03:36Is looking at two men getting married, is that the religious objection?
03:40Again, it would depend on the individual beliefs of the clients.
03:44For example, many parents would object to their child being exposed to something like pornography or extreme violence.
03:48It would vary from...
03:49We're not going there.
03:50So, Mr. Baxter...
03:51I'm sorry.
03:51I'm sorry.
03:52Let me just finish this one.
03:54So, just to answer my question, is looking at the pictures, is there any affidavit from any parent that merely looking at people getting married, holding hands, none of them are even kissing in any of these books?
04:11The most they're doing is holding hands.
04:13That mere exposure to that is coercion.
04:16Our parents would object to that.
04:18All right.
04:18Now, so let's move to what I think your objection is.
04:22I think your objection is to the student guidance, correct?
04:25Our objections would be even to reading books that violate our clients' religious beliefs.
04:30Their faith teaches, for example, they shouldn't be exposed to information about sex during their years of innocence without being accompanied by moral principles.
04:39And here we have both books that violate their moral principles and instruction that tells them that, for example, they can pick their pronouns based on the way they feel, not even just based on their gender, but how they feel from moment to moment.
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