Karnataka CM Siddaramaiah's decision to table a controversial caste census report has triggered sharp backlash across the state.
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00:00Good evening and welcome. You're watching the NewsTrack. I'm Rahul Kamal.
00:04Siddharamaya, the Karnataka Chief Minister, is bringing out his caste survey before the Cabinet tomorrow.
00:10This has unleashed a hornet's nest in Karnataka.
00:14What are the political consequences if the caste survey, in the way that it's appeared in the public, actually goes through?
00:21What impact will it have on Karnataka politics?
00:24What are the implications for national politics?
00:27That's my top focus on the NewsTrack.
00:30Karnataka caste survey storm
00:38Caste findings splits Congress
00:45Discontent brews in dominant castes
00:56Why put out caste survey now?
01:00How will it impact Karnataka politics?
01:06Big focus on NewsTrack.
01:09The Karnataka caste survey that estimates a 38% increase in the population of OBCs and recommends increasing OBC quota has turned the state's politics on its head.
01:23There is widespread discontent brewing among the dominant Lingayat and Bokalega communities.
01:28The survey has also split the Congress government in Karnataka.
01:32Many ministers are opposing the survey findings.
01:35The socio-economic study was conducted 10 years ago.
01:38The question being asked by the BJP and even within the Congress is why has Chief Minister Siddharamaya decided to put out the caste study at this time?
01:47Hours before the Karnataka caste survey report is placed before the state cabinet, a big political storm is brewing in the state.
01:57The survey that recommends increasing the OBC quota in the state from the existing 32% to 51% has sparked massive churn within the Congress and the dominant communities.
02:10On Tuesday night, Deputy Chief Minister D.K. Shivakumar, a Bokalega leader himself, met community leaders.
02:20The report shared, 13 months after the Karnataka State Backward Classes Commission presented it to the Siddharamaya government,
02:47has estimated the population of OBCs to be 69.6%, 38% more than the existing estimates.
02:57The socio-economic survey has come under fire from the Bokalega ministers and leaders within the ruling party,
03:03who have described it as a grave injustice to their community.
03:17Our top Bokalega seer has also called for D.K. Shivakumar to be made Chief Minister.
03:24The Karnataka situation is called for the Karnataka State Backwardelle,
03:35and president of the Karnataka State Highway is the official of the Karnataka State Movement.
03:40The Karnataka State Department has been government-funded and the Karnataka State Its
03:41the Department of the Karnataka State Church.
03:43Attention has also turned to Jay Prakash Hegri, chairman of the Karnataka State Commission for Backwood Classes and Abant Bukkaliga himself.
04:13For the sake of politics, they should not complain. I would ask them to, even after tomorrow's cabinet decision, they should take the cassette or CD, whatever it is, to compare it with the figures.
04:28Chief Minister Siddharamayahu initially backed the report, is now more cautious.
04:32BGP is questioning the legality of the caste survey and accusing the Congress of playing caste politics.
05:02With concerns raised within the Congress and outside, the question is, why has Karnataka Chief Minister suddenly decided to go public with a caste survey a decade after it was conducted?
05:28With Nagarjal Dwarkanath and Sagai Raj in Bengaluru, Bureau Report, India Today.
05:58Determined to do the same nationally and therefore, what are the consequences if a study of this nature is implemented by other state governments and nationally?
06:09So, there's a lot to talk about because this can fundamentally alter the nature of Indian politics.
06:16I want to go across first and foremost to the Labour Minister of Karnataka, the Chief Spokesperson of the Siddharamaya Government, Santosh Laad.
06:23Now, joins us, Mr. Laad, great to have you back on the news track. Thank you for taking our time.
06:31Thank you, Raul.
06:32I want to ask you, and I have a whole bunch of sophologists, election experts, politicians joining me after you.
06:38I want to ask you, what impact do you think on Karnataka politics will this caste survey have?
06:45It's clear, directionally, that the weightage given to Lingayats and Vokaligayats, which are the two most important communities and castes in Karnataka, is seeming to come down.
06:58The OBC weightage and categorization is going up, which is great for Siddharamaya because he's a Kurubha coming from the OBC category.
07:05But this really disrupts Karnataka politics.
07:08So, we'll do the Panditri. What impact do you think this caste survey will have from your lens on Karnataka politics?
07:19Okay, I don't know what is happening, the impact, but the impact is happening in all the studios of the media.
07:24That is sure now. Now, just as of now, every media is speaking about it. This is the impact now.
07:30But let us analyze, Raul, what is this all about?
07:32It's just about a caste census of every community.
07:36Okay, there is no doubt about SC, SC and Muslims, other minorities.
07:43The only question of doubt is all about OBCs and Lingayat and Vokaliga as far as Karnataka is concerned.
07:49As of now, there are five such committee reports earlier from past seven, eight decades,
07:56which always the same apprehension, the same objections were raised.
08:00Now, the government of Karnataka, in its wisdom, it has brought this caste census, which has been tabled to the cabinet now.
08:09Yes, obviously, when it has gone to a public domain, there's so much of hue and cries there.
08:14Always, every community in every state, in every part of India, you go and ask them.
08:19They say,
08:19This is a very common phenomenon.
08:24Coming back now, this is the 2011 census, and this caste census was made somewhere in between 2014 and 2015.
08:32So now, the apprehensions whoever has got, if the government is coming up and telling,
08:36Take that first into report, whatever the report has been given by the government.
08:45If you have 2,000,000 people, 2,000,000 people, so many subsects, verify yourself and come back.
08:52This is, anyway, this, the committee which is going, this board which is there, the backward class committee is going to be there forever.
09:00The members will be changing.
09:02It's same like an voter list.
09:04How every year we change the voter list, every elections we change the voter list.
09:08If there is any difference also, I apparently feel, yes, there would be a difference.
09:125% of jai is hui jai, because there must be some 5% difference.
09:16If there is any difference among the community, because when I go, when I was surprised,
09:21now there are 1,800 subsects, sub-communities in this state.
09:24So when people go and approach your door and ask a question, everybody would not narrate according to the way everybody wants.
09:31Mr. Laat, Mr. Laat, Mr. Laat, you are making it seem as if this is some procedural, bureaucratic routine.
09:39It's not.
09:39This fundamentally changes the nature of Karnataka politics.
09:42If implemented nationally, it changes national politics.
09:44Now I want to explain to our viewers why.
09:46And I don't typically get into castes and don't really look at which neta comes from, which caste.
09:51Mr. Laat comes from an OBC caste.
09:53And just one second, allow me to complete my question and then respond.
09:57Just give me half a second.
09:58Mr. Laat comes from an OBC caste.
10:00The chief minister is from an OBC caste.
10:02And therefore, to them, it is to their great advantage.
10:06But anybody who knows anything about Karnataka politics knows,
10:09if you upset the Lingayats and if you upset the Vokaligas,
10:13that's the end of your presence in Karnataka politics.
10:16The reason that the Sidharamaya government and the Congress won is because they got a part of the Vokaliga vote,
10:22they got some part of the Lingayat vote, and they had the OBC vote as well,
10:25which is how they had this big coalition.
10:27You double Muslim categorization, reduce Lingayat, Vokaliga categorization.
10:32If you push this through, Mr. Laat, it could well mean the end of the Congress in Karnataka.
10:38You don't have the Vokaligas on your side.
10:39You don't have the Lingayats on your side.
10:41It's game set and match for the BJP.
10:43Rahul, I understand where you're coming from.
10:49I've lived 30 years in politics.
10:51So you're setting a narration in the studio, sir.
10:53What is going to happen?
10:54Let us see what is going to happen next.
10:56That's secondary.
10:57But the way you're discussing, you're as if to say setting a narration.
11:01What is this?
11:01Now, what is the report table?
11:02Okay, let us discuss only about the table.
11:04You discuss only about the report, Rahul.
11:07You are speaking something, what is going to happen, what is not going to happen.
11:11As if to say, we have done something to Vokaliga Lingayat or Idrik.
11:13Nothing has been done.
11:15Yes, in case if there is somebody, some number is let down.
11:18For number, for example, or Vokaliga Lingayat or any OBS matter.
11:22There's always an option to see.
11:23First, nobody is ready to read the report.
11:26Has anybody read the report completely?
11:30Have you read the report completely, Rahul?
11:32I've read enough of the report.
11:33I've read all the operative elements of the report, which give me a pretty good sense
11:37of how Category A, Category B and Category C moves and the impact this has on different
11:44categories.
11:45That's quite clear.
11:46Sir, the minutiae matters only to a certain extent.
11:50The fact that the political represents, ultimately, how do parties give tickets?
11:55They give tickets on the basis of their understanding of the numerical dominance of certain castes.
12:00No matter who says what, whether it's the Congress or the BJP,
12:03that's how tickets are given.
12:04If the message goes out into the markets that Lingayat numbers have come down, Vokaliga
12:08numbers have come down, next time tickets are being given, fewer tickets will be given
12:11to candidates from this community.
12:12If that message goes out, voters from that community will turn against your party.
12:16This is fundamentally how, like it or not, accepted on TV or not, that is fundamentally
12:20how politics happens in this country, unfortunately.
12:22Rahul, if you want to, then you have to give me some more time to discuss at length.
12:29So, now let us consider Vokaliga and Lingayat.
12:32Predominantly, they are definitely a stronger community in the state and they have been phenomenal
12:37community which have transformed the state also in a bigger extent.
12:41There is no second thought about it.
12:42They have contributed enough to progress of the state and a lot of muds of Lingayats or
12:46Vokaliga muds, they have been greatly helping the common man in the state.
12:50There is no second thought about it.
12:52When you are talking political number, then you should say how many representation they
12:55have got.
12:56Now, you are talking what you want to talk.
12:58Don't get into that.
12:58We will let us restrict ourselves only to only on this report.
13:01The report is tabled now.
13:03Okay.
13:03What is minus going to happen?
13:05What is plus is going to happen is secondary.
13:07Just because some plus is minus is going to happen to somebody, you mean to say the report
13:11has to be not tabled.
13:13Now, what is there in the table?
13:15They have given the caste census of each community.
13:17What is the total population of each community in the state is?
13:22Yes.
13:22Let us discuss if there is some little bit change here and there.
13:25Let us discuss about it.
13:27And the reservation pattern, still it has to come to the government.
13:30We will see who has to be given what reservation.
13:32It is just a recommendation.
13:33Now, first I would like to restrict myself and discuss only about the census which has come
13:38on the caste based census.
13:40Let us discuss only about that.
13:41Reprication about elections.
13:43What is going to happen before election?
13:44Which caste is going to vote somewhere?
13:46Where I have lived 30 years of political career, Rahul, things will change in six months,
13:50in two months or in one week also things will change.
13:52Now, what is the entire debate you want to take and talk about is about the caste census
13:57report which has been tabled by this government.
14:00We have to restrict that much only.
14:01Who is getting robbed there?
14:02This is getting robbed there.
14:03It is not that simple.
14:04Government has nothing wrong.
14:05Mr. Ladd, let us have a frank conversation between mature adults.
14:10It is not just about the procedural enumeration of caste.
14:16Caste is about political representation.
14:18It is about the impact this report has on state politics.
14:21And why this is so important is because there are ripple effects on national politics as well.
14:26You can't run away from the reality.
14:28And forget what I am thinking.
14:30Look at leaders from your party.
14:32Who is running away?
14:32Shiva Ganga, report is confusing and unrealistic.
14:36Forest Minister Ishwar Khandare, who is a Lingayat, says he is compiling views from community leaders.
14:41Shiva Shankarappa, who is an MLA from your party, survey is unscientific.
14:47No one came to my house.
14:48So, there are multiple voices of discord from within the Congress party that are coming out
14:54and speaking out so much so that there are elements who are suggesting that because after
14:59a certain number of time, midway through the term, it is DK Shivkumar's turn to take over,
15:04which is why Siddharamaya, who is an OBC leader himself, has brought this report out to show
15:09Vukaliggas are fewer in number and therefore DK should not be made chief minister.
15:13I am not saying this.
15:15I am just telling you what is already being said in Karnataka politics.
15:18I know.
15:19Rahul.
15:21Rahul, I know you are a very smart man.
15:24So, let us analyze this.
15:25This was started in 2014 and 2015.
15:27So, this is the second term where Siddharamaya has become CM.
15:30So, subsequent government did not table it.
15:33The BJP government would have tabled the same thing.
15:35They did not do it.
15:36See, now you want to speak what you want to speak, then you have to give me a lot of time
15:40to discuss on the same point, whatever you discuss.
15:42Right?
15:43Yes.
15:43If there is a political call throughout India, if OBC census has been told to the whole
15:48country, what is wrong about it?
15:50If the entire Rahul Gandhi wants to know that the entire country should know what is the
15:55OBC population, what is wrong about it?
15:57And what will happen to political conservances?
16:01Who wants to benefit whom?
16:02Everybody has to benefit from political parties.
16:05If political parties want to please OBCs, let them please.
16:08What is wrong about it?
16:09So, this is going to benefit ultimately OBCs.
16:14Right?
16:15If OBCs are larger chunk of this country, which you have to believe and everybody has to speak
16:20about them.
16:22The whole country, if you come from Jammu to Kashmir to Kanyakumari, average 60 to 70 percent
16:27OBCs are the strength of this country.
16:30Apart from ACST and all minorities, not only Muslim, all are minorities left.
16:35In every state, OBCs are different.
16:38In Karnataka, OBCs are different.
16:39In Uttar Pradesh, OBCs are different.
16:40In BR, OBCs are different.
16:42All put together, whatever service I have got, it's from a 60 percent average OBCs are there
16:47in every state.
16:48So, if Rahul Gandhi is talking about them, who are suppressed, who don't have political,
16:52that's what Mr. Amitkar sub said.
16:54As long as you don't get political power, if you don't have a political empowerment,
16:58you will never grow.
16:59Okay.
16:59So, why are we talking about reservations?
17:01Why you only say that on caste basis?
17:03No, wait.
17:04Why are the caste basis tickets given to JAT?
17:06Why are it has been given to Rajput?
17:08Why it has been given to Yado?
17:09It's because of the strength of the caste.
17:11So, likewise, if OBCs wants to get tickets, based on this report, in what wrong?
17:16So, let every political party...
17:16No, I'll tell you what is wrong.
17:18And it's not wrong for me.
17:19It's a headache you and your party will have to deal with.
17:22Let's assume that you give OBCs more tickets, which is what they'll demand.
17:26So, just hear my question.
17:27Mr. Amitkar, hear my question.
17:28You're saying what is wrong?
17:29Okay, listen.
17:29What's the problem?
17:30I'll tell you what the problem is.
17:32Don't paint it wrongly.
17:34Allow me to complete my question.
17:35Problem is in your story, Rahul.
17:36No, there's no problem.
17:38No, no, no.
17:39There is no problem.
17:40Why did you say there's a problem?
17:41I'll tell you why.
17:42First is, you should appreciate the government.
17:44When you get a caste census of 7 crore people, the amount of effort they have put, first you
17:49should appreciate.
17:50Okay.
17:50You can't make a voter list.
17:51In every six months, there's a 50 lakh voter list change.
17:54At that time, there's no problem in this country.
17:56See, from parliament to assembly, in Maharashtra, 42 lakhs, what got changed?
18:01How it got changed?
18:02It was not a problem in this country.
18:04When somebody has brought a broad card census, gone to every door and subcast is there.
18:08You read through that book.
18:10You know, there are 1,800 subcasts in the state.
18:12They're gone.
18:13They're brought it.
18:14Yes, if there is some problem, let us address it.
18:16The way you're talking, I don't understand.
18:18You please continue.
18:19I would like to hear you from...
18:20No, no.
18:20My question was this.
18:21You were saying, what can be the problem if OBCs get more tickets, basis their numerical
18:25strength, which is what Rahul Gandhi wants.
18:27The problem, not for me, but the problem for the Congress party will be that there will
18:31be a counter consolidation of the Lingayats, of the Vokal Ligas.
18:36And remember, I want to explain dynamics.
18:38I'm sure most viewers understand this already.
18:40It's not just Lingayat and Vokal Liga voters turning against them.
18:44It's their ability to mobilize at the community level, at the village level, which creates a
18:50problem bigger than the sum of parts.
18:53That is the challenge you'll have to deal with.
18:55And that is the issue, which is why it's a Pandora's box.
18:57No, why are you assuming things?
19:03Now, you're talking like a political analyst, what is going to happen in three years?
19:07That's what we're doing on the show, exactly.
19:09See, now, what is it you're talking?
19:10What was the discussion for?
19:13Why are you talking about that?
19:18Now, you're not talking about the OBC report at all.
19:20You mean to say, you tell on your table whether this OBC car sense is right or wrong, according
19:24to you, tell me.
19:25No, I think any constant harping towards caste philosophically is wrong.
19:31I am very strongly opposed to it.
19:33I am very strongly opposed to the idea that you constantly…
19:35Why?
19:36Why it is wrong?
19:37No, let us see why it is wrong.
19:39Because you want people to rise above caste.
19:42You don't want to drag them back to their caste.
19:43You want to make it an inclusive society where people are able to rise above their station.
19:48This idea, you are OBC, you are Lingayat, you are scheduled caste, you are Muslim.
19:54Because you are Muslim, we'll give you more tickets.
19:56Therefore, the percentage of tickets given to Muslims could double.
19:59All this has a counter effect in Indian society.
20:02That is the reality.
20:04Look, for example, at what's likely to happen with the Muslim population, which, according
20:08to this, is likely to be more than double of what it was previously.
20:12Category 2B, 8% Muslims, their population is about 12.56%.
20:17There are consequences to these decisions.
20:20I don't want to get into a moral judgment or right or wrong.
20:23The fact is, there are political consequences to your report.
20:25Now, wait, hold on.
20:28Oh, now, wait, hold on.
20:30Now, the government of India bought 10% for Krimi Lair.
20:33Why are we not supposed to discuss on the same studio now?
20:37You said, no, you are totally wrong against all these things.
20:40We should raise above all these things you spoke.
20:42Then, 10% for Krimi Lair was given.
20:44Let us discuss about it right now.
20:47You want to discuss about it?
20:50It is called EWS.
20:51On the Krimi Lair, Economical Weaker section, they gave 10% reservation for whom?
20:58Who is included in it?
20:58Can we discuss on it, Rahul?
21:00Okay.
21:00No, I don't want to get into an argument with the minister.
21:03Can we discuss on it?
21:03No, I have got guests from the BJP.
21:05They will answer.
21:05Don't get into that.
21:06No, no, because it's not my job too.
21:07Rahul, once again, my job is to ask questions.
21:09My dear friend, Rahul.
21:10Yes, yes.
21:11Then, don't.
21:13Then, you should only ask.
21:14Now, you have creative opinion.
21:16You give an answer.
21:16And everything you say, don't do that.
21:18No, no, you're a good debater.
21:19Then, you're a good guest.
21:20The political party is doing the same thing in this country.
21:22Santosh ji, you're a good guest to have on the show.
21:24You are pugnacious and feisty, which is great.
21:27But you're trying to trap me and I won't get trapped because it's my job to ask questions.
21:30Okay.
21:30I leave my opinion outside the studio when I come.
21:32No, it's not because you're trapping.
21:33You're putting down the Congress here for all the reasons.
21:35Don't do that.
21:35No, no.
21:35I'm asking questions.
21:36Okay, fine.
21:37Yeah.
21:37So, you had your…
21:38I hope to come to your studio.
21:39Rahul, we'll discuss.
21:40Yes, I'll come and have a cup of coffee with you.
21:42Nice filter coffee.
21:43It'll be lovely to have that with you.
21:44All the best.
21:45Love to have.
21:46Love to have, Rahul.
21:47So, what will happen in the cabinet tomorrow?
21:51Will the cabinet go through or will there be lots of kitch-kitch between Shif Kumar and
21:54Siddharamaya and everybody else?
21:56Lots of confusion, confusing voices from your government.
21:59Rahul.
22:02See now, Rahul.
22:04The whole studio is preparing the narration.
22:06This country runs only on the studio narrations.
22:08Believe me.
22:09Okay.
22:09What is happening in Karnataka?
22:11You can come and see.
22:12There's everything is calm and cool.
22:13Yes, there are apprehensions.
22:15When you get such huge caste census report, everybody have got apprehensions.
22:20We have to respect everybody.
22:22Okay.
22:22We have to sit calmly and analyze.
22:24At last 80 years, why should not everybody know how much, you know, what is our caste and
22:28community?
22:28Nobody's…
22:29Rahul, how much are you speaking?
22:30No.
22:31You come to rural area.
22:32No, no, listen.
22:33You have to listen because you allowed me to speak.
22:35You said all those great things.
22:37There is no caste.
22:38Everybody has to above race caste.
22:40So, today, discrimination of caste is not there in this country.
22:42You want to say about this?
22:43Okay.
22:45That's not what I said.
22:46You want to talk about Dalit atrocities in this country?
22:48Caste is a reality.
22:50It's a very unfortunate reality.
22:51The question is, do we work towards rising above this reality as one India or do we keep
22:55bringing people down to their caste?
22:55Then we have to accept it first.
22:56We have to accept it, Rahul.
22:57To their caste.
22:57But you've had your say, Minister.
22:59Minister, you had your say for joining us, Santosh Ladji.
23:02Thank you very much.
23:03Chief spokesperson of the Karnataka government joining us right before this cabinet meeting.
23:07You've heard what he could say.
23:09There were many questions he didn't answer.
23:11But I've got guests on the show who will try and answer those questions.
23:14Leading them is Sandeep Shastri, National Coordinator at Lokniti Network.
23:18I have R.K.
23:18Upadhyay, one of the senior most journalists out of Karnataka.
23:21I have Nagarjun Dwarkhanath.
23:22He leads our coverage from Bangalore.
23:25I have Amitabh Tiwari joining us, one of our top political experts.
23:28And for perspective from the parties, I have Bhaskar Rao, Chief Spokesperson of the Karnataka
23:34BJP.
23:35And I have Shatabish Shivana.
23:38He's the spokesperson of the Karnataka Pradesh Congress Committee.
23:42Sandeep Shastri, you heard what Santosh Ladji said and did not say.
23:46Leave all that aside.
23:48Explain to our viewers watching and are confused what, if this report goes through in the way
23:53that it's been made public, what impact does it have on the next Karnataka elections?
24:00Rahul, that if is a very big hit with the capital I and capital F, given the fact that there
24:04is dissension within the Congress on this.
24:07But if this were to go through, I think it is going to change the contours of politics
24:12in this way.
24:13Because the Lingayats and Bukkaligas together have always constituted more than half the
24:18MLAs of the country.
24:20And the fact that the report says that the relative strength of these communities is much
24:26lower than what was anticipated and what was projected, and that the other backward castes
24:31are much larger in number, would alter the whole projections that are made by politicians,
24:37by political parties about the relative strength of various parties.
24:42Given the massive effect this can have on Karnataka politics, explain the timing in your
24:47view.
24:47Why is Sidharmaya opening up Pandora's box at this moment?
24:52Now, I think it's very clear.
24:55Sidharmaya, like Devarajas in the past, is representative of backward caste politics.
25:00And traditionally, the Lingayats and Bukkaligas have always been categorized as backward castes.
25:06And whenever there was a move by a backward caste community to remove either one or both
25:11of them, there was strong opposition and it was not allowed, even when it was an attempted
25:17to.
25:18Now, this report now would automatically place within the backward caste, the Lingayats and
25:24Bukkaligas has a very small proportion.
25:26And the whole talk of there being dominant backward caste would then get sidelined.
25:33So that, I think, is the impact.
25:34And as you very rightly said, Sidharmaya sees himself as a spokesperson of the other backward
25:41caste.
25:41And he has been an Ahinda leader.
25:44And this is an opportune moment for him to make that point and see that role that he believes
25:50he can play.
25:50And also, it reflects the internal dynamics within the Congress Party, the effort of Shivkumar
25:57to claim that half the term belonged to him.
26:00And that politics is also very clearly visible.
26:04Let's remember, both the Lingayats and the Bukkaligas have a significant presence both in
26:09the Congress and in the BJP.
26:10And I will not be surprised if they cut across party lines to be able to come together on
26:15this issue to defend their interests.
26:17A political enemy's enemy is a friend.
26:20And therefore, if their interests are impacted, they are likely to come together.
26:24Nagarchan, Dwarkana, ahead of the cabinet meeting, you've been walking the phone lines, speaking
26:30to a cross-section of ministers and voices who matter.
26:33Nagarchan, what according to you is most likely to happen when that cabinet meeting happens?
26:43Well, the cabinet is completely divided, Rahul.
26:45If you speak to them off record, all the forward caste, Lingayats and Bukkaligas, including QOBCs
26:51are not happy with them.
26:52The main criteria is that we are underrepresented.
26:55Lingayats are completely spread over Karnataka from Bidar to Chamrajnagar.
26:58They feel that how could we be just 66 lakhs across Karnataka, we are such a presence in
27:04all districts, all constituency, out of 224, 115 to 120, they are deciding factors.
27:10So, seven Lingayats ministers will oppose the caste report tomorrow and urge the chief
27:15minister to resurvey.
27:16And also, for all practical reasons, this is a 10-year-old survey.
27:19So, it doesn't serve the purpose.
27:20The population has grown up from the state.
27:23And let's do it like Telangana is what one of the ministers will be suggesting to chief
27:27minister, give it 90 more days, let's call for a new survey, will be the suggestion.
27:32Hopefully, the cabinet will agree to it.
27:34Most likely, what we are told is the cabinet will accept this report, but also call for
27:38a fresh census to be done.
27:40What is Siddharamaya likely to do?
27:42Because this report actually suits him.
27:44It's anti-Shivkumar's community, the Bokkaligas in some senses, but actually suits Siddharamaya's
27:50agenda.
27:51Well, actually, his ideology is not always Ahinda, right?
27:57He stood for these OBCs and minorities and backward caste.
28:02It really does suit him.
28:03And also, in a larger perspective, Rahul, if it all, by December, if he gets removed after
28:08the 2.5 years, 10 years, it's going to be very difficult for the high command because
28:13the Dalits, the Muslims in the backwards would solidly consolidate behind Siddharamaya because
28:17he is the one who showed the guts to put out these numbers after 10 years.
28:21The previous coalition government, previous VGP government sat on it, but now the time
28:26is up, Siddharamaya, and he's put it out.
28:28It's also one upmanship if you read between the lines.
28:31Thank you very much, Nagarjun, for joining us.
28:34RK Upadhyay, there have been some reports to say because Rahul Gandhi praised Revant Reddy
28:40publicly.
28:41Therefore, Siddharamaya has come out and put this report out.
28:44Could that be true or is that just a very juvenile, superficial way of looking at this?
28:50What explains the timing?
28:51He's been talking about making this public for a while.
28:54Why now?
28:57You don't mute.
28:58Yeah, go on.
28:58He's got a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure on various banks that we can see.
29:04I don't think we cannot have a lot of increased prices across the board, whether it's water,
29:09electricity, bus rates, whatever it is.
29:13And then he's also under pressure because of the border case, which is still alive.
29:16All these issues have come to the court, and he has brought out a report which is more
29:22than a decade old.
29:24And there have been so many complaints about this report itself.
29:27The credibility of the report itself is a question because a lot of people have said
29:32nobody came to our house to do this during the survey.
29:35So, I mean, there have been umpteen complaints regarding this.
29:38So, whereas the minister claims 95% of the population was surveyed on that.
29:44But then, what did you do for all this?
29:46Why?
29:46Why now?
29:47Why have you brought it out?
29:48And then, what about the figures?
29:50The number of, you know, the car figures that have been given, way beyond what anybody can
29:56accept.
29:57Sure.
29:57I don't know, Zubuligar is even at 66 lakhs, and Bukaligar is at 61 lakhs, and each one of
30:04them have been, you know, people have come.
30:06Okay, Amitabh Tiwari, with you, I want to focus on the impact a report of this nature
30:13with findings of this nature, which is what Rahul Gandhi is also suggesting, that the OBCs
30:19are underrepresented politically, that their numbers are actually much bigger than what
30:24conventional political wisdom suggests.
30:26So, if these reports come out in other states, as an aggregate, what's the impact on national
30:30politics?
30:31So, clearly, on a short-term basis, this is likely to have a ripple effect in the Karnataka
30:38Assembly, as well as for the Karnataka government.
30:42Because for a significantly, after a significantly long time, the Congress Party was able to woo
30:48back a section of the Lingayats and also the Bukaligars.
30:52Now, at the national politics, if you see, now two of the three states of the Congress
30:59Party in power have released or will have released the caste census report.
31:04One state under NDA has already released, which is Bihar.
31:08So, now, there will be pressure on other governments and the Congress Party and Rahul Gandhi will
31:14try to force BJP to do a caste census or they will raise this point each time again that caste
31:23census is going to be the main plank of the Congress Party.
31:27However, that has repercussions for the government itself.
31:30He was speaking to the Karnataka government spokespersons.
31:34The Congress, MLA's and ministers themselves are asking the report to be joined.
31:38No, but let's take it one step further.
31:40We are only imagining a negative impact.
31:42But hypothetically, if the OBC is consolidated because they feel that Rahul Gandhi and the
31:48Congress has given them a larger say in politics, then even if the Lingayats and the Bukaligars
31:55turn against you, isn't it to the advantage of the Congress in its current state?
31:58See, essentially, the Lingayats and Bukaligars till now have been influential communities and
32:06they pull the votes of the other sections of the community as well.
32:11At the national level, the BJP has been able to gather the OBC vote on this plank itself that
32:20they have given higher representation to the OBCs.
32:22The Prime Minister himself is an OBC and the proportion of the ministers in the Modi cabinet
32:28as well as in state governments is higher for OBCs compared to other Congress governments.
32:34This is a plank which may or may not work.
32:37We will have to see.
32:38However, it will have short-term repercussions for the Karnataka government and it has come
32:44at a time where the two and a half year rotational chief ministership period, the so-called
32:49rotational chief ministership is going to come somewhere in October, November.
32:54Bhaskar Rao, the concern for the Karnataka BJP is if the OBCs feel sympathetic towards the
33:04Congress and consolidate in favor of the Grand Old Party because ultimately the numbers were
33:08made public.
33:08This can have a ripple effect and put pressure on the BJP in other states that Karnataka has
33:14shown what the real percentage of OBCs are.
33:16And therefore, the governments of Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and the others must also
33:21do the same.
33:24This will be true only if the quality of the census is admissible.
33:31The Congress Party itself is in great crisis whether to accept this report or not.
33:35Tomorrow will be the cabinet will be able to take a decision.
33:39The Linguets are unhappy.
33:40The Okaligas are unhappy.
33:41No, but the OBCs will be happy.
33:44Those whose percentage goes up, so those whose percentage total new reservations are supposed
33:49to be 69% with the addition of a 10% economically weaker section quota, 79%.
33:55So that's a 79% quota.
33:57If that happens, there are losers, but they're beneficiaries too.
34:01Let the truth come out.
34:02This is not the truth.
34:03This is not a true portrayal of what is the picture in Karnataka over there.
34:07Let the truth come out over there.
34:08Everybody likes to.
34:09So you're dodging my question.
34:10Forget this.
34:11I'm saying assume that things are the way they are.
34:14They are losers like the Vukaligas and the Lingayats, but there are beneficiaries like
34:18the many OBC communities.
34:20That is what I'm trying to tell you.
34:22You cannot rub one side and say that I'm portraying you in a positive way over there and then
34:26extrapolate what benefits are going to take place over there.
34:29This report itself is flawed and first of all, they have been saying that this is a caste
34:33census.
34:34It is a constitutional impropriety to call it a caste census.
34:37Only the government of India can conduct.
34:40This is only a survey and survey has got a sample.
34:43So the sample may either be extrapolated or sample numbers have been touted around over there.
34:48So the entire…
34:49No, but let S. Sivana respond to this.
34:52There are so many people and I want to quickly ask.
34:55R.Q. Upadhyay, did somebody come to your house for this study?
35:01One second, before I go across to the congressman, did somebody come to your house for a study?
35:05Nobody has come.
35:06No, no.
35:07R.Q. Upadhyay, you are on mute.
35:08Please don't keep muting here, sir.
35:09Did somebody come to your house for a study?
35:12Go on, sir.
35:14Hello?
35:14Yeah, I hear you.
35:15Yes, yes, yes.
35:16Nobody came to my house or any of the friends that I know of.
35:21Nobody has said that…
35:22Okay, you're saying nobody came to you or your friends?
35:25Sandeep Shastri, did anybody come to you, your friends, your colony, your locality?
35:32Dr. Shastri?
35:33Not in my area, at least.
35:36Do you know anyone whose house was surveyed?
35:39Yes.
35:40Do you know anybody whose house was surveyed, Dr. Shastri?
35:43Not in the layout that I live in.
35:44Okay, let S. Sivana respond to this.
35:49Now, as people, this is just a biased sample, you could say these are Bangalore boys, go
35:56to rural Karnataka, we've spoken to many people, but everybody will have his own anecdotal
36:00perception.
36:01If everyone or many people together say that nobody came to our house, then what is the
36:05credibility of the survey that you've done?
36:09Personally, I agree with Mr. Bhaskar Rao and I would state that this is not a caste survey,
36:14this is a socio-economic and educational census or a survey, right?
36:19It's not about caste.
36:20It's not about the number of…
36:21No, is it a survey or is it a census?
36:23One second.
36:24No, is it a survey?
36:24Is it a representative survey or is it a…
36:26It's a socio-economic and educational survey.
36:2953 questions were proposed to 10.6 million households, that is 5.98 crore people, that
36:36is 94% of the Karnataka's population and one question out of the 54 was about caste.
36:42No, but you are saying 94% of the population has been surveyed, but forget the guests on
36:49the show because that's a biased sample, but everyone who is being spoken to, even including
36:54ministers in the Karnataka government, they're saying, no, we don't know anyone who was surveyed.
36:58Your own ministers are saying this.
37:00Firstly, let me… just give me two seconds to reply.
37:04Firstly, the purported statistics or recommendations and proposals that you are canvassing on your
37:10show, with all due respect, this is strictly confidential.
37:13It is only with the possession of the Honourable Chief Minister, the 32 ministers and the Karnataka
37:18Backward Class Commission's Chairman, nobody else.
37:20Now let me… now the entire ruckus of whether it is scientific or not, let me put forth the
37:25information that is available on public domain.
37:28One, as I said, 5.98 crore people were surveyed, 1.6 lakh personnel, field personnel were mobilized
37:34for this operation.
37:35It is the most extensive data gathering effort by any state government.
37:39Number two, 53, 54 parameters.
37:42This data, Rahul, was validated by the Indian Institute of Management.
37:48And the BEL, Bharat Electronic Limited Tech firm was employed on a 43 crore rupees contract
37:54to conduct the entire exercise.
37:56Now, are you saying the Indian Institute of Management is wrong for validating the statistics
38:00so provided?
38:02They came to my house.
38:03They came to many houses that we know of.
38:05They came to our assemblies.
38:07They came to our parliamentary constituencies.
38:09It is just our word against yours.
38:11No, no.
38:12It is not my word.
38:13I have no word.
38:14I am sitting in Delhi.
38:15I know that Shiva Shankar Appa, who is the leader of the Congress party, says survey is unscientific.
38:19No one came to my house.
38:21He is amongst the percentage of people who nobody came.
38:24Sandeep Chastri is saying no one came to him.
38:26R.K. Upadhyaya is saying no one came to him.
38:28Of course, Bhaskar Rau is going to say that, but let's discount him.
38:30But Sandeep Chastri and R.K. Upadhyaya are hardly inimical to your government.
38:34No.
38:35I am saying they have come to him.
38:36His own minister says no one came to him.
38:37I can get a dozen of political leaders or MLAs and MPs who claim that they have come
38:43to their house.
38:44Again, you know, there are certain communities that are upset with the proposed purported
38:48result.
38:49Yet, this information is strictly confidential and it is under official consideration.
38:54So, 32 Karnataka ministers have it by admission.
38:58Nothing that is available to 32 Karnataka ministers is going to remain confidential.
39:02No, no, see, that is the thing, with all due respect, the statistics that you are claiming
39:07on your show is on the basis of leaked information.
39:11Why do you rely on this as official communication or, you know, the matter is still pending and
39:15as you know, tomorrow it is going to be placed before the cabinet.
39:19The cabinet is going to discuss.
39:21They will decide whether to make it public or not, whether it must be tabled in the state
39:24legislature or not.
39:26Let all these things happen.
39:27Therefore, any public commentary right now is premature.
39:31It is misleading and there is a potential.
39:33You are arguing more like a lawyer than a… are you a lawyer by profession, sir, by any
39:38chance?
39:39Yes, sir.
39:40Yeah, yeah, because you are arguing like a lawyer, less like a politician.
39:41The fact is that this is bad news for the Lingayats and the Vokaliga community, which
39:45has been the fulcrum and the core of Karnataka politics.
39:50Now you may be good at law, but in politics, this is bad politics.
39:52I mean, this is disastrous for any government that hopes to win again in Karnataka.
39:56Forget the legality.
39:57How will you deal with the politics?
39:59No, I would deny… see, the Congress has always provided an open platform and we will,
40:05you know, we will engage in a wider consultation with all stakeholders.
40:09The Lingayat community, if you claim that they have some inhibitions or reservations with
40:14the socio-economic survey, we will address their issues.
40:17If the Vokaligas have some problems, we will address their issues.
40:20There are 32 Vokaliga leaders who, from our very own party, who will voice their reservation
40:26tomorrow, if they have any.
40:27And it will be dealt with amicably.
40:29And…
40:30No, no, one second.
40:31Let me put that question to Sandeep Shastri.
40:32You are making it seem very simple.
40:34A unified…
40:35No, no, sir, sir, sir.
40:36He is saying that we can address Vokaliga and Lingayat concerns amicably.
40:41Is that an oxymoron, you think, given the directional trends of percentage coming down for the Vokaliga
40:46and the Lingayats and percentage going up for the OBC?
40:49Sandeep Shastri, do you buy what the Congress spokesperson is saying or is he just trying
40:53to point us towards a mirage?
40:56He is making a very…
40:58He is seeking to make a very persuasive statement.
41:01But my challenge is, with a very large chunk of Congress MLAs belonging to these two dominant
41:10castes, Lingayats and Vokaliga, would it not be very difficult for the party to be able
41:16to convince a majority of its MLAs about this because they come from communities which
41:21are going to be adversely effective by this book?
41:24Of course, I must use the word alleged report in the light of what the Congress spokesperson
41:30said.
41:31So, I think tomorrow he is going to see a battle within the Congress party on how to place
41:38this.
41:39I think they may say, as somebody said, accept the report but redo the census, the survey
41:44because it was done more than 11 years ago.
41:47And that is the way they would try to bring both groups together.
41:51But I think it's going to be a huge challenge.
41:53The party will not find it easy to be able to deal with this.
41:57That is, given the large numbers and the political strength that the MLAs of these two communities,
42:04the Lingayats and Vokaligas have.
42:06So, it's not going to be an easy task for any government to be able to take it forward.
42:10And history has proved this.
42:12Even in the past, when attempts were made to try and take out Lingayats and Vokaligas
42:17from the backward caste lists, the backward caste commissions have suggested it.
42:22But then it has not, the government has not been able to take that step forward.
42:26Okay, all our guests have spoken.
42:28Make no mistake, this is a hornet's nest.
42:32It might make good politics for Sidharmaiya.
42:36It might be good for Ahul Gandhi's national projection and attempt to woo the OBC communities.
42:41But it's going to make life very difficult for this country.
42:44I mean, those are the harsh realities.
42:45It's very awkward and uneasy to discuss caste so openly on politics.
42:50You kind of tiptoe around it.
42:52Don't address it head on, especially on live television.
42:55But it's the reality that holds and drives our politics.
42:59Interesting times.
43:00Politically, if you're an analyst and have no skin in the game, interesting times.
43:03For Mr. Shiv Kumar who's on your screen, that's why he has the glasses, he's clearly frowning.
43:08Sidharmaiya thinks, okay, try and remove me.
43:10I'll unleash this report and if I do, there will be hell to pay for everyone.
43:15Game on in Karnataka.
43:17We'll track what happens.
43:18Thank you to all my guests for joining us.
43:20We had an interesting, insightful conversation.
43:23The Congress party hit the streets to protest against the enforcement directorate's charge sheet against Sonia and Rahul Gandhi in the National Herald case.
43:31This is the first time the ED has named the Gandhis in the money laundering investigation.
43:35The Congress has termed the ED's action political vendetta.
43:39While the BJP says that the probe has exposed the Gandhi model of development.
43:53Congress workers hit the streets across the nation in protest against the charge sheet filed against Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi in the National Herald takeover case.
44:05In the national capital, protestors breached barricades, shouting slogans against the central agency and confronted the police.
44:19Many were detained by the police.
44:23Many Congress leaders including Sachin Pilot joined the party workers in the protest on Venesty.
44:29Under the whole process, there will no transaction.
44:33There is no cash for the change, work for the evil.
44:35There was no money laundering, no cash for the same.
44:37Congress's leadership had been done for a while 100 years ago.
44:40It was associated with the support of Congress party, the whole process,
44:43it says that it is a non-profit entity.
44:45In which case no one had sold on
44:49money laundering, no money laundering, went from money laundering.
44:52The ED in his charge sheet has named Sonia Gandhi as accused number one and Rahul Gandhi
45:04as accused number two. Gandhi family loyalists Sam Petroda and Suman Dubey are also accused
45:10in the case. The ED has accused Gandhis of money laundering, tax evasion and financial
45:16irregularities in the takeover of Associated Journals Limited by the Young Indian. The
45:21private firm controlled by Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi.
45:51The ED in his charge has been done three, three, four days.
45:54Sonia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi is in the jail. He has made the entire work of the High Court Supreme Court
46:01and no way to get rid of it. So this is what is going on for four years, which you can't
46:08give a positive answer. Where the law is working on its own, do a vendetta, vendetta.
46:18BGP supporters put up posters in Mumbai demanding bulldozer action against properties linked
46:25to the National Herald case. With Shivani Sharma, Anmol Bali, Rahul Gautam, Bureau Report, India
46:31Today.
46:33The politics over Bengal's anti-wakf violence continues to escalate. Chief Minister Mamata
46:39Banerjee accused the BJP and the BSF of orchestrating the clashes. She's alleged the riots in Murshidabad
46:46were a pre-planned conspiracy. The BJP on the other hand claims that Mamata Banerjee is indulging
46:51in appeasement politics.
46:56A semblance of normalcy has returned to large parts of West Bengal's Murshidabad district.
47:01But the scars of recent communal violence are still fresh. Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee
47:06on Wednesday addressed a gathering of Muslim clerics in Kolkata. She launched a fierce attack
47:12on the central government and the BSF, also pointing fingers at the Congress even as she
47:17called the riots a conspiracy.
47:19It's a pre-planned communal riot.
47:20It's a pre-planned communal riot.
47:47Mamata urged the Muslim community to stay calm and not fall into what she called the BJP's
47:53trap. She announced 10 lakh rupees compensation to the families of those killed and promised
47:59new homes under the Bangalore Bari scheme, along with relief for affected shopkeepers.
48:04The BJP mounted its own counter offensive. Led by leader of opposition Subhendo Adhikari, the BJP
48:11MLAs held a rally in Kolkata holding posters of the violence and dubbing the day Hindu Martyrs Day.
48:18The BJP's Day was the first.
48:19The BJP had been the first.
48:20The BJP mounted its own counter offensive.
48:21The BJP mounted its own counter offensive.
48:25Led by leader of opposition Subhendo Adhikari, the BJP MLAs held a rally in Kolkata holding posters
48:33of the violence and dubbing the day Hindu Martyrs Day.
48:40A team of the National Human Rights Commission will visit Murshidabad to probe incidents of
49:07the police being targeted. The killing of Hargobindu Das and his son Chandan Das.
49:12The
49:27As the TMC and BGP trade accusations, on the ground, stories are of loss, grief and a slow road to recovery.
49:47Bira Report, India Today.
49:57Speaking from all of us, see you, goodbye, goodnight.