The US-China trade war has significantly impacted global trade and potentially disrupted supply chains. Recently, the US imposed a 145% tariff on Chinese goods, while China responded with a 125% tariff on US imports. What's next? Catch the discussion tonight at 9pm.
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01:59So we really just want to look at how we can make sense of this
02:04Is there really a strategy, a rationale, what can we predict after this
02:08And most importantly, how do other countries, especially looking at Malaysia and within ASEAN
02:14Navigate these rough and very unprecedented waters
02:18And joining us today to help make sense of this is Dr. Deborah Elms from Henrik Foundation of Singapore
02:24Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Deborah. How are you doing?
02:28Good
02:28Yeah, Dr. Deborah, we want to make sense of what's transpired
02:33But I guess firstly, we just want to hear your thoughts on what's been going on overall
02:38How do you make sense of it all?
02:40Well, it's been crazy. I don't think anyone expected quite this level of trade disruption so fast
02:48So, you know, we're not even 100 days into Trump's return to office
02:52And the level of trade chaos, particularly for goods trade has just been off the charts
02:58It happens daily, it happens hourly, we've had, you know, pivots, reversals, reimposition of trade tools like tariffs
03:07Against everybody globally, including places that are only inhabited by penguins
03:12I mean, you could not have made this up if you tried to imagine what it would look like as far back as December
03:20You know, you would not have thought we would be where we're at in April
03:23Right. And we want to look at specifically what's been going on between the U.S. and China
03:29Looking at the 145% tariffs
03:33And, you know, we know that there's been a bit of a back and forth
03:37But as we know, it's up to 145% now
03:39And how do you think that's going to impact relations between these two giants now?
03:46Well, it's deeply alarming
03:47Again, I don't think anyone imagined that we would have this kind of hard decoupling
03:51And if we had this kind of hard decoupling, I don't think anyone thought it would be this fast
03:55Or implemented in such a slapdash way
03:59And so what we've had here is tariff escalation by the U.S.
04:03Met at first by relative restraint by Beijing
04:07And then continued escalation by the United States
04:10Met with less restraint by Beijing
04:12And we're now in a situation where the tariff levels back and forth between the two are prohibitively high
04:18So it's basically stopping most trade in goods between China and the U.S.
04:24With the now spillover into other areas
04:28With other kinds of tools that are not just about tariffs for tariffs
04:31But tariffs for restrictions on critical minerals
04:35Or tariffs and restrictions on critical minerals for content restrictions
04:40Can you have any Chinese or American-made content involved in supply chains?
04:46I think this is escalating much more rapidly than people imagined
04:49And who do you think is going to feel this the most?
04:54Well, U.S. consumers for sure
04:55Who are suddenly having to pay an awful lot more for anything manufactured out of China
05:00Which is still about a quarter of U.S. shopping comes directly or indirectly through China
05:06But it will also have impact, of course, China as well
05:09As they clamp down on inputs from the U.S.
05:12And particularly on final markets from the U.S.
05:14But it will have implications for all of us, including across Southeast Asia
05:18Because much of the production in this region
05:21Is in whole or in part
05:23Part of supply chains that run between the U.S. and China
05:27And when those get disrupted
05:28We all, in Southeast Asia, also get disrupted
05:32Yeah, you know, as they say, when the U.S. or China sneezes
05:36The whole world catches a cold
05:38And I think it's safe to say for sure
05:40We're all feeling the chill already
05:42What are the potential risks for the rest of us?
05:45Especially looking at Southeast Asia
05:46Well, I think if we just look at the weekend's craziness on electronics
05:52That gives you some sense of where we're at
05:55So prior to Friday
05:57That was only a couple days ago
05:59But prior to Friday
06:00We had the situation where
06:03Tariffs between the U.S. and China
06:05As you just mentioned
06:06Were escalating to 145% plus plus
06:09And tariffs on the rest of the world
06:12Are sitting at 10%
06:13With the potential for reciprocal tariffs
06:16To be reimposed within 90 days
06:18In some cases, those reciprocal tariffs are quite high
06:22Into that scenario, late, late on Friday night in Washington
06:26The Customs Department released a list of electronics products
06:31A long list, laptops, smartphones, etc.
06:34That were suddenly exempt from these reciprocal tariffs
06:38So that took tariffs from over 145% in China down to 20%
06:43And it took tariffs back in the rest of the world down to zero
06:47From 10% to zero on these selected products
06:50And so many people, you can imagine
06:52Were popping champagne corks
06:54Because they thought suddenly
06:55Instead of paying prohibitively high tariffs
06:57They are now paying no tariffs
06:59Or low tariffs, lower tariffs
07:00However, that has been walked back already
07:04By the U.S. administration
07:05By saying that there are going to be new tariffs
07:09From a different classification coming
07:11Potentially within days
07:13It could be within a month
07:14But in very short order
07:16And we have no idea what that level will be
07:19It could be 10%, it could be 40%, it could be 100%
07:22We really have no idea
07:24And so that's all within a 48-hour window
07:27That you had very high tariffs
07:29To almost no tariffs
07:30To potentially very high tariffs again
07:32That kind of uncertainty
07:35Is making business really, really difficult
07:37And making forecasting growth
07:40Employment, future job options
07:44Completely impossible
07:45I mean, it's difficult for business
07:48But it's also another headache
07:49For policy makers, right?
07:52I mean, we want to talk about
07:53The perspective of
07:54Or the aspect of trade policy
07:56How countries are supposed to keep up
07:59With the flip-flopping
08:00The numbers that keep changing
08:02And the new terminologies
08:04The buckets and whatnot
08:05I mean, how
08:06How is trade policy around the world
08:09Supposed to keep up with this?
08:10With great difficulty
08:14With great difficulty
08:15Because, again, you know
08:17When policy changes that rapidly
08:19Your instinct, especially, is to simply say
08:22I'm not going to pay attention anymore
08:23That's it, I'm done
08:24But unfortunately for the rest of us
08:26You can't sort of say
08:27That's it, we're done
08:28Because even in areas like electronics
08:31The United States has been
08:32A key driver of electronics
08:34And a key purchaser of electronics
08:36And what the U.S. purchases
08:38Is at price points that others don't
08:40So even if you wanted to say
08:43That's it, we're out
08:44We're not dealing with
08:45This crazy United States anymore
08:46We're going to do something else
08:47The shift is not easy
08:49And so policy makers as well
08:51Are grappling with the speed
08:53The scale, the complexity
08:55The knock-on implications
08:57And ultimately, their big challenge
09:00At the moment is
09:00What is it the United States wants?
09:03Because if you're going to go into
09:04Any kind of negotiation, discussion
09:06Maybe not at all
09:08You need to have a sense
09:09Of what is it that the other party
09:10Is looking for
09:11And the big challenge
09:13For countries like Malaysia
09:14And the rest of ASEAN
09:15Is it's totally unclear
09:17What the United States actually wants
09:19And in fact
09:20They seem to want six different things
09:22All at the same time
09:23And many of them are in conflict
09:25With one another
09:26So there isn't anything
09:27That you could really even come up with
09:29To offer
09:29That would solve conflicting demands
09:32I mean, yeah
09:34What we're trying to do here
09:35In essence
09:36Is trying to understand
09:36What's going on
09:37That might be difficult
09:39But we try to anyway
09:40And one thing
09:42We were trying to grasp
09:44Is the 90-day pause as well
09:46Could you
09:47Would you say that
09:48This is perhaps reactionary?
09:50I mean
09:50It seems as though
09:52They want to respond
09:53They are responding
09:54Or are they
09:55I mean
09:56Is there any rationale behind this?
09:59And yeah
09:59Are they reacting
10:00To how we're reacting
10:01The rest of the world?
10:02I mean
10:03Yes
10:04Great
10:05Excellent questions
10:06And everyone is asking
10:08The same kinds of things
10:09I mean
10:09Clearly
10:09The pause came about
10:11Because the markets reacted
10:13Extremely badly
10:14To the idea
10:15Of reciprocal tariffs
10:16Or what Trump called
10:17Liberation Day
10:18I think he thought
10:20That Liberation Day
10:22Would be met
10:22With great enthusiasm
10:23And instead
10:25It was met
10:26With markets tanking
10:27Especially US markets
10:28Including in areas
10:30Like bonds
10:30That normally
10:32Don't do that
10:33So I think
10:34That level
10:35Of economic distress
10:36Sent a signal
10:38That even the White House
10:39Couldn't ignore
10:40And they had to
10:40Pull back
10:41On the Liberation Day
10:42Tariffs
10:43And at least
10:44Pause them
10:44For 90 days
10:45I think that was
10:46Accompanied by
10:47The confusion
10:48About the way
10:49In which those tariffs
10:50Were allocated
10:51And I'm not going to
10:52Get into all of the details
10:53But basically
10:54They had a nonsense formula
10:55And the result of that
10:57Was that developing countries
10:59Especially got hit
11:00Very hard
11:01And developing countries
11:02In Asia
11:03Are at the top
11:04Of the list
11:04Of those who got whacked
11:06By this Liberation Day
11:08Tariff agenda
11:09And that also created
11:11New problems in Washington
11:13Which is
11:13Did we really mean
11:14To hurt some of
11:15The poorest developing countries
11:17As hard as we have done
11:19And if not
11:20Can we somehow
11:21Politely walk this back
11:23Without looking
11:24Even more stupid
11:24And I think
11:25That has proven
11:26To be a challenge
11:27As well
11:28Yeah
11:29We're talking about
11:31Reactions and responses
11:33And we're seeing
11:33Some of that
11:34From the Chinese side
11:35As well
11:36What do you make
11:37Sense of that?
11:39Well the US and China
11:40Are in a very different
11:41Category from the rest
11:42Of Southeast Asia
11:43Where the rest
11:44Of the region
11:45Has been
11:46Has had the
11:47Worst damage
11:48At least paused
11:49For the moment
11:49Again we're waiting
11:50To see how the chips fall
11:52We are still paying
11:53Again 10%
11:54Tariffs
11:55Which is unprecedented
11:56But at least
11:57It's not 145%
11:58And so if you look
11:59To the US and China
12:01We are entering
12:03Very dangerous territory
12:04I think
12:05Where we've had
12:05About as much
12:06Tariff escalation
12:07As you can have
12:08And so now
12:09If you want to
12:10Respond in negative ways
12:12You move to
12:12Different areas
12:13And that becomes
12:14Again increasingly
12:15Dangerous for both
12:17The US and China
12:18But also for the
12:19Global economy
12:19And let me just
12:20Give you a couple
12:21Of areas
12:21Where this
12:22This is already
12:23Moving
12:23So one is the
12:24Restriction of
12:25Particular products
12:26Like critical minerals
12:27It's the restriction
12:29Of activities
12:29Of particular
12:30Listed firms
12:31Who are now
12:32Being put on
12:32Entity lists
12:33And sanctions lists
12:34Those lists
12:35Continue to expand
12:36And it's the use
12:37Of different kinds
12:39Of regulatory tools
12:41Especially by
12:42Customs officers
12:43To clamp down
12:44On US or
12:46Chinese content
12:47In domestically
12:49Manufactured products
12:50Either in China
12:51Avoiding use
12:52Of US content
12:54Or increasingly
12:55Likely in the
12:56US avoid the
12:58Use of Chinese
12:59Made content
12:59And so that
13:00Again escalates
13:01This to a
13:02Whole nother level
13:03Where I don't
13:04Think we can
13:05Picture yet what
13:06That will look
13:07Like because
13:08It's so rapid
13:09And the consequences
13:10Will be significant
13:12Talking about
13:13Consequences
13:15Surely we've
13:16Been seeing
13:16Some of the
13:17Impact in just
13:18The past few
13:19Days
13:19Looking specifically
13:20At trade patterns
13:21Have you noticed
13:22Any significant
13:23Shifts looking
13:24Specifically in
13:25Southeast Asia
13:26Well one reaction
13:28That's very easy
13:29To say and very
13:30Hard to do
13:31Is don't trade
13:32With the United
13:32States or don't
13:33Trade with the
13:33United States
13:34And China
13:34That's easy to
13:36Say that is
13:36Incredibly hard
13:37To pull off
13:38Because unless
13:40You are a firm
13:41That already had
13:42A global footprint
13:43One and or
13:44Regional footprint
13:45Two you
13:46Already had
13:47Factories with
13:48Distribution and
13:50Logistics set up
13:51For all kinds of
13:52Different scenarios
13:53It's really hard
13:54For you to just
13:55Simply pivot and
13:56The speed again
13:56Is you know by
13:58Friday you need
13:59To do something
13:59Ah you know most
14:00Firms are not set
14:01Up for that so
14:02If you're going to
14:03Dramatically restructure
14:04Where you get your
14:06Materials where you
14:08Get your parts and
14:08Components where you
14:09Have final markets
14:10That takes time
14:12And it takes
14:13Money you know
14:14It's not simple
14:15For you to just
14:15Say well I'm not
14:16If I'm not going
14:16To sell the
14:17United States I'm
14:17Going to pivot and
14:18Sell to Indonesia
14:19That is not an
14:20Easy transition to
14:21Make and so we're
14:23At a point now
14:24Where firms are
14:25Really struggling
14:25With what is the
14:27Longer term future
14:28In that longer term
14:30Future where's my
14:32Role do I am I
14:33Going to have
14:34Markets am I
14:34Going to have the
14:35Same access to
14:36Supply that I had
14:37In the past and
14:38If not where is
14:40More likely to be
14:41A sort of safe
14:42Landing zone for me
14:43And can I get
14:44From here to there
14:45Can I invest the
14:46Resources do I have
14:47The contacts and
14:48The connections or
14:50Am I really looking
14:51At you know potential
14:52Clamping down on
14:54Spending within my
14:55Company and
14:56Potentially even
14:57Going out of
14:57Business I mean
14:58That's the kind of
14:59World that we're
15:00Currently living in
15:01And it is deeply
15:02Alarming
15:02I mean you know
15:17This is rather
15:18Unprecedented at least
15:19In modern history
15:20And there's surely
15:21No guidebook no
15:23How to navigate
15:25Tariff wars for
15:26Dummies out there
15:28So you know
15:28As you say it's
15:31Not as easy
15:31To pull off
15:33You know
15:33Just cutting off
15:34Completely trade
15:34Relations or just
15:35Trying to protect
15:36From all these
15:37Shifts and all
15:39These impacts
15:39But what's some
15:41What are some
15:42Ways for firms
15:44Industries to
15:45Protect themselves
15:46Looking specifically
15:47In regions like
15:49Southeast Asia
15:50Well I think a
15:51Couple of things
15:52Are helpful
15:53So one is
15:54Of course to pay
15:54Attention to
15:55What's happening
15:55And to make sure
15:56That you're getting
15:57Advice from people
15:58Who are genuine
15:59Experts in the field
16:00Because there's
16:02So much opportunity
16:03Now there are a lot
16:04Of people giving
16:05Bad advice and that
16:06Can lead to real
16:07Challenges so make
16:08Sure you're getting
16:08Good advice from
16:09People who actually
16:10Know what they're
16:10Doing
16:10The third thing
16:12That I think is
16:12Helpful and
16:13Especially helpful
16:14Here in ASEAN
16:15Is the network
16:16That ASEAN has
16:17Built up over the
16:17Decades of ever
16:19Closer integration
16:20Options so
16:21Either within ASEAN
16:23Or ASEAN plus
16:24It's big trading
16:24Partners or the
16:26Regional comprehensive
16:27Economic partnership
16:27With 15 countries
16:29For Malaysia
16:30Singapore
16:30Vietnam and Brunei
16:32They're also
16:32Members of the
16:33Comprehensive and
16:34Progressive Trans-Pacific
16:34Partnership
16:35This mouthful
16:36Called CPTPP
16:37But the point is
16:38There are a lot of
16:39Different trading
16:40Arrangements that
16:41Are available for
16:41Companies and if
16:43They're not if
16:44You're not already
16:44Looking at how to
16:45Use those agreements
16:46To get you
16:47Potentially zero
16:48Tariffs and a lot
16:50More certainty and
16:51Lower your risk
16:52Then this is the
16:53Moment in which
16:54That's what you
16:54Should be doing
16:55What are those
16:56Other markets
16:57Where I have
16:58Benefits that
16:59Other firms
16:59Might not have
17:01Where I can
17:02Leverage these
17:02Existing trade
17:03Arrangements and
17:04At least lower
17:05The temperature
17:06On the amount
17:07Of risk that
17:08I'm in
17:08You did mention
17:11A lot of bad
17:13Advice out there
17:14You know we
17:15Know what to
17:15Do what do
17:16We not do
17:17Well let me
17:18Give you one
17:19Big one that
17:20I'm very worried
17:21About I mean if
17:22The tariffs are
17:22150% out of
17:24China and
17:26You're a company
17:27Sitting in
17:27Malaysia the
17:28Temptation is
17:29Going to be
17:29Enormous for
17:30You to take
17:30Things in from
17:31China stick a
17:32Made in
17:33Malaysia label
17:34On it and
17:34Ship it to the
17:35United States
17:35That's something
17:37That I think is
17:37Likely to happen
17:38And it is
17:39Illegal don't
17:40Do that because
17:42The fines the
17:43Fees the
17:43Penalties could
17:44Be catastrophic
17:45And so despite
17:47Huge incentives
17:48Don't go there
17:49But there are
17:51Ways to
17:51Legitimately at
17:53Least for now
17:53Again it could
17:54Change but there
17:55Are ways to
17:55Legitimately bring
17:56In products and
17:57Components from
17:58China to
17:59Manufacture them
18:00In Malaysia or
18:01Elsewhere and
18:02Then export them
18:03Legally to the
18:03United States so
18:04Again very careful
18:05Thinking about what
18:06You're doing and
18:07How you're doing it
18:08Very important
18:08Following the
18:09Rules which is
18:10Hard because they
18:11Change all the
18:11Time but following
18:12Those rules will
18:13Help with making
18:15Sure that any
18:16Exports that you
18:16Have to the
18:17United States or
18:17Potentially now to
18:19China at least
18:20Comply with the
18:21Legal requirements
18:22And you're not
18:23Putting yourself at
18:24Risk because those
18:25Fines fees and
18:26Penalties can be
18:27Implemented up to
18:28Five years after
18:29You've sent the
18:30Shipment so it's
18:31Not just that
18:32You're at risk in
18:33The moment you're
18:33At risk after that
18:35As well and so
18:36Again be careful who
18:37You're listening to
18:38And what advice
18:39You're following
18:39You also talked
18:41About looking
18:42Elsewhere for
18:43Trade either
18:44Within ASEAN or
18:45ASEAN plus other
18:47Regional partners how
18:48Long do you
18:49Is this a
18:50Sustainable option
18:51I know we're
18:52Talking about
18:52Reactionary responses
18:55How to stay safe
18:57In this current
18:58Context at this
18:59Current time and
19:00Age but you know
19:01If we're looking at
19:02Something a bit more
19:03Long term is this
19:04Sustainable I think
19:06It's likely I don't
19:08Think that this
19:09Chaos out of the
19:09United States is
19:10Going to go away
19:11Anytime soon so
19:12People who are
19:12Like well you know
19:13U.S. midterms
19:14Coming in another
19:16Year and a half
19:17Will solve something
19:18I mean a year and
19:19A half in a
19:20Business term is
19:20Way too far away
19:21And an election
19:23For Trump you
19:24Know we'll see
19:25Whether the man
19:26Runs for election
19:26Or just stays in
19:27Office or what
19:28Happens but I just
19:29Think you should
19:30Expect turbulence
19:31Out of the United
19:31States for a long
19:32Time now that
19:32Doesn't mean you
19:33Should give up on
19:33The U.S. as a
19:34Market because for
19:35A lot of firms it
19:36Remains still very
19:37Lucrative and very
19:38Attractive and they
19:39Buy stuff from the
19:40U.S. that no one
19:41Else does so don't
19:42Give up entirely
19:43Perhaps on the U.S.
19:45Depending on your
19:45You know what it is
19:46You make but I
19:47Think thinking
19:48About these
19:48Alternatives has
19:49Become a major
19:50Priority or should
19:52Be a major
19:52Priority for firms
19:53Of all sizes how
19:55Can we limit our
19:56Risk and our
19:57Exposure and so
19:58Thinking about well
19:59Who else might buy
20:00The thing that I'm
20:01Making is important
20:03And this is the
20:04Time in which to
20:06Rethink some of the
20:07Patterns that maybe
20:08Just evolved over
20:09Time that might not
20:11Make sense might
20:12Maybe they didn't
20:13Make sense before
20:13But they certainly
20:14Make less sense
20:15Now so how do we
20:16Again restructure
20:17Look for different
20:18Markets look further
20:18Afield could we go
20:20To Europe could we
20:21Think about Latin
20:21America as a market
20:23Could we think about
20:24Africa I mean all
20:25Kinds of ideas again
20:26That never would have
20:27Been in your mind
20:27Before should be
20:29Bubbling up to where
20:30You say actually you
20:31Know the Middle East
20:32Is an interesting
20:33Market for us let's
20:34See what we can do
20:35We're talking about
20:36Risks we're talking
20:37About losses but is
20:40There anyone that
20:41Could potentially gain
20:43From this anyone
20:44Taking opportunity of
20:46This calamity it's
20:48Hard to find pockets
20:49Of opportunity I mean
20:51I'd love to be able
20:51To say yes it's going
20:52To be great we're
20:53Going to do well
20:54Because especially in
20:55This region a lot of
20:56People thought Trump
20:57One went very well
20:58For Southeast Asia as
20:59People pivoted as they
21:01Move to a China plus
21:02One strategy this region
21:03Benefited I think it's
21:05Going to be much harder
21:06This time around
21:07Because we're not just
21:08Talking about a minor
21:09Problem between the
21:10U.S. and China but a
21:11Global disintegration of
21:1380 years worth of
21:14Economic structure and
21:16That's not easy to
21:18Navigate through so I
21:19Think those pockets of
21:20Opportunity do exist but
21:22They're going to be
21:22Harder to find they're
21:24Going to be probably
21:25Less lucrative is my
21:26Guess because in
21:27Addition to all the
21:28Crazy on trade you're
21:30Going to have potential
21:31For recession lower
21:32Growth in that
21:34Environment firms and
21:35Customers are going to
21:36Buy less and as they
21:37Buy less there's less
21:38Opportunities you know so
21:39I would love to be the
21:41Bearer of fantastic
21:42News this is not the
21:44Time for fantastic
21:45News I think we need to
21:46Be pragmatic and
21:47Realistic about where
21:48We're at this is the
21:50Time for some really
21:52Hard looks at what you
21:53Do where you do it why
21:54You do it who your
21:56Markets might be and to
21:58Be ready to pivot as
21:59Quickly as possible and
22:00I would say if there's
22:01Any opportunity for me is
22:03That a lot of the
22:04Companies that I have
22:05Dealt with across the
22:06Years in Southeast Asia
22:07Are actually quite
22:09Nimble very flexible very
22:11Pragmatic prepared to
22:13Think about doing things
22:14Differently and it's those
22:16Kinds of of of
22:17Characteristics that are
22:18Going to serve you well
22:19Now as we see this
22:21Complete reshuffling of the
22:22Way in which we do trade
22:23And just lastly looking
22:26Very briefly at ASEAN
22:28Specifically with Malaysia
22:29As the chair of ASEAN in
22:322025 is there any
22:34Leverage for Malaysia in
22:36Navigating this well I
22:38Think one of the things
22:39That Malaysia has done that
22:40Is in my view amazing is
22:42The ability of the
22:43Malaysian government to
22:44Work with its ASEAN
22:45Counterparts to say we
22:47Should have a collective
22:48Statement so they had an
22:49ASEAN economic ministers
22:50Meeting an emergency one
22:52Which is amazing in and of
22:53Itself they managed to put
22:54Together a statement I
22:56Think that's helpful I
22:57Think they've been trying
22:57Especially by Malaysia to
22:59Say rather than go down
23:01This bilateral route of
23:03All of us send a
23:04Delegation individually to
23:06Washington to come up with
23:07Bespoke outcomes we should
23:09Also think about an
23:10Inter ASEAN approach and
23:12That the ten of us
23:13Together are certainly more
23:15Powerful than each of us
23:16Individually where we can be
23:18Picked off one at a time I
23:19Think that's to be
23:20Applauded I think that's
23:22Exactly why you have an
23:23ASEAN and that's why you
23:24Started down this
23:25Integration path in the
23:26First place ten is better
23:28Than one so working
23:29Together cooperatively is
23:31Very helpful and especially
23:33To position ASEAN as a
23:36Potential growth opportunity
23:37For investors and firms
23:40That are also relocating
23:41Remember it's not just
23:42ASEAN that's struggling
23:43It's Chinese companies it's
23:45American companies it's
23:46European companies so
23:47Making ASEAN that
23:49Integrated production and
23:50Platform base that
23:51They've been talking about
23:52Forever this is a moment in
23:54Which ASEAN could seize that
23:56Opportunity to be that
23:58Market of the future
23:59Yeah all right thank you so
24:01Much for your time and I
24:03Think we definitely be
24:05Keeping in touch as we
24:06Expect more twists and
24:07Turns coming thank you so
24:08Much dr deborah thank you
24:10That's dr deborah from
24:13Henrik foundation of
24:14Singapore and that's all for
24:15Agenda Awani today I will
24:17Catch you another time with me
24:18Naila Huda