At a House Natural Resources Committee hearing prior to the Congressional recess, Rep. Val Hoyle (D-OR), Rep. Jared Huffman (D-CA), Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-CO), and more lawmakers debated Hoyle's amendment relating to preventing a wolf population decline.
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00:00To H.R. 845, I recognize the gentlewoman from Oregon, Ms. Hoyle, for the purpose of offering an amendment designated Hoyle No. 2. Without objection, the amendment is considered red.
00:11Thank you, Mr. Chair. This bill would reinstate a bad and unscientific rule that was thrown out because of ESA and Administrative Procedures Act violations.
00:24H.R. 845 would also block judicial review of that rule.
00:27The courts are an important part of how the ESA operates.
00:31They are a tool that businesses, stakeholders, and tribes can use to help ensure that Fish and Wildlife Service does its job protecting vulnerable species.
00:41Without the courts, there's little accountability for the quality of scientific monitoring programs or the conservation and management measures led by the states.
00:50All my amendment would do is to make sure that judicial review is allowed if the wolf population starts to rapidly decline.
00:59A rapid decline in wolves would provide evidence that the delisting decision was premature or failed to fully account for the remaining threats.
01:07If the best available scientific and commercial data show a rapid decline of more than 10% of the gray wolf population in a given year,
01:16the American people should be able to hold the Fish and Wildlife Service accountable to correct that through judicial review.
01:22This amendment isn't saying the service must relist the wolves.
01:26It doesn't require the courts to overturn the delisting rule.
01:30It just provides the option of seeking judicial review if the population starts to decline rapidly.
01:37If the proponents of wolf delisting are correct and wolves are set up for success in the long term, then the provision would never kick in.
01:46This is a common sense safety measure, and I urge my colleagues to vote yes on my amendment, and I yield back.
01:54The gentlelady yields back.
01:56Is there further discussion on the amendment?
01:58Mr. Huffman, you're recognized.
02:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
02:01I do support my colleague's amendment, and I think it's pretty sensible to have some potential recourse if the wolf population that our country has invested so much in starts to slide back toward extinction.
02:15If the population starts to plummet, then at least allow the rule to be challenged in court.
02:21I mean, it seems like my colleagues on the other side of the aisle aren't comfortable with allowing judicial review if the population slips by at least 10%.
02:29If there's a percent decline that would be acceptable to them, you know, I would love to identify that.
02:36Chair Westerman, would you accept allowing judicial review if the population drops below 20% in a year, perhaps?
02:44Would that be just if the gentleman would let us know?
02:47I mean, we're looking for something here, some common ground to provide a backstop if this becomes law.
02:53Would you agree to that?
02:55Well, I don't think it's my, it's not my legislation.
02:58Would the gentlelady agree to that?
03:00Just a little bit of a safety net here in case she's wrong about, it is my time, but I'm asking you yes or no.
03:09Would you accept a backstop of 20% decline in any year?
03:14Well, didn't we just bring a wolf back that was here 10,000 years ago?
03:18So, I mean, if it really gets that bad, you know, we could just bring woolly mammoths back and all this stuff.
03:22Oh, boy. Okay. Well, that's a deeply unserious response to what should be a very serious policy.
03:27Look, we have worked on this time and time again, and rogue judges overturned the administration after administration's ruling.
03:38I understand, I'm reclaiming my time because I did hear the gentlelady make that point.
03:44I don't see why there wouldn't be some level of a safety net that my friends across the aisle would agree to.
03:50That's all this amendment is trying to get at, and we can't even get a straight answer about whether 10, 20, 30% decline in any single year could at least trigger some kind of judicial review.
04:00So, look, I think the gentlelady from Oregon is on the right track with this amendment.
04:06It's common sense to have a safety net if you're going to legislatively try to delist and declare a species recovered.
04:13And so those who value science-based management, who value continuing to hang on to this recovered wolf population that we've spent so much time and money in,
04:24it's been such a success story.
04:25If you believe any of that, you should support this amendment.
04:28I yield back.
04:28The gentleman yields back.
04:31Mr. Chair.
04:32Mr. Stauber, you're racking us.
04:33Thank you very much.
04:35I rise in opposition to my good friend's amendment simply because it does not follow the science.
04:40The science already tells us that the gray wolf has recovered, and the current population across the lower 48 far exceeds the recovery goals that were set when the species was listed under the ESA.
04:52In fact, the population today is far higher than 10% of the recovery goal.
04:57Thus, even if the population were to decline 10% in a calendar year, the population would still be far above that original recovery goal.
05:07This 10% threshold set forth in this amendment is arbitrary and does not follow the science.
05:13It's simply an attempt, in my opinion, to keep the gray wolf listed under the ESA.
05:18We must delist and allow the states to manage.
05:23I trust the states to manage the population.
05:26Under this ESA, since 1978, the gray wolf has been on the threatened list.
05:33It's like the Hotel California sign.
05:35You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave.
05:38I urge my colleagues to join me in opposing this amendment simply because it does not follow the science.
05:45Now, yield back.
05:46Gentlemen, yields back.
05:47Is there further discussion on the amendment?
05:50Mr. Tiffany, you're recognized for five minutes.
05:52Yeah, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
05:53What we have before us is it says has declined more than 10%.
05:57That's what we're answering the question on.
06:00And I would take you back to the testimony that we received, expert testimony, both previous session and this session from Dr. Roberts, where he said there can be up to a 29% take.
06:11That is something that is peer-reviewed science of a species.
06:15You can have up to 29% take, and you will not threaten that species' numbers.
06:20If it does, then you make a change from there.
06:24The second point is that states can and will manage these species.
06:28Our colleague from Wyoming stated it very clearly and aptly.
06:34The states are going to manage these populations, and they're not going to allow them to become endangered.
06:39If, for some reason, a population would crash, then they will act because the states care as much as the federal government.
06:48And, in fact, the caring of the federal government is what has led us to this point where we've had a slaughter in places like northern Wisconsin.
06:58I yield back.
07:01Gentleman yields back.
07:02Is there further discussion on the amendment?
07:04Mr. Chairman.
07:06Ms. Bovert, you're recognized.
07:08I also oppose this amendment that aims to undermine the bill entirely.
07:13This amendment is unnecessary and is not backed by science.
07:17And let's just start with the facts here.
07:20When the gray wolf was first listed under the Endangered Species Act in 1967,
07:25its population had dwindled to fewer than 1,000 across the lower 48 states.
07:30The protections afforded by the Act were necessary then, and they worked.
07:36Today, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services estimates the gray wolf population at over 6,000 in the lower 48,
07:44and growing across regions like the northern Rockies, Great Lakes, and beyond.
07:48The left wants to paint a picture of wolves vanishing from our forests, but this fear ignores evidence.
07:55States with delisted populations like those in the northern Rockies since 2011 have not seen a collapse.
08:04States are not the enemy of conservation.
08:07They are its partners.
08:09They know their ecosystems better than the federal government does.
08:13They know their people.
08:14They know their wolves better than any distant bureaucracy.
08:18And delisting the gray wolf would empower states to implement flexible, localized management
08:24that would balance wolf populations with the needs of our rural communities.
08:30Delisting does not mean abandoning the wolf.
08:34It means trusting in its resilience and shifting management to the states,
08:40entities that have proven they can steward this species and many others effectively.
08:47As I said in my opening statement, state and tribal wildlife agencies have a proven record
08:53of successfully managing gray wolves.
08:55Just like in Montana, successful state management resulting in gray wolves being 500% above the
09:03Fish and Wildlife Service recovery goals.
09:05Idaho's successful state management resulted in gray wolves being over 700% above the recovery goals.
09:12So, once again, I urge my colleagues to oppose this amendment, and I yield.
09:19The gentlelady yields back.
09:20Is there further discussion on the amendment?
09:23I recognize myself to briefly say I oppose the amendment.