On Sunday, Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins spoke to CNN's Take Tapper about President Trump's tariffs.
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00:00So how long do you anticipate this tariff chaos is going to be going on?
00:0430 days, 60 days, 90 days?
00:09Well, first of all, Jake, thank you for having me.
00:10I think it's really important to realize that last Wednesday was when the president announced
00:16this new American order, the new American economic plan.
00:20We're now two days in, right?
00:21You've got two days of data.
00:23Everyone, especially on your side, on the left, is freaking out.
00:26I'm not on the left.
00:27But at the end of the day, listen, this whole concept—all right, Jake, thank you—this
00:32whole concept is about rebuilding an American economy around American goods, around American
00:37industry.
00:38We do already live under a tariff regime in this country, but it's the tariff regime of
00:43China, of Mexico, of Brazil, of Australia, of countries that Mexico won't take our corn,
00:48Australia won't take our beef.
00:50The country of Honduras takes more pork than the entire European Union does American pork,
00:55I should say.
00:56So from our farming and ranching perspective, which is what I'm focused on, but happy to
00:59talk about anything, that it has to—it is time for a change.
01:03And that's what this president evoked last Wednesday.
01:07So I think we'll see, in short order, a really positive outcome from this.
01:11We already have 50—5-0—50 countries that have come to the table over the last few days,
01:17over the last weeks, that are willing and desperate to talk to us.
01:20We are the economic engine of the world, and it's finally time that someone—President
01:26Trump—stood up for America.
01:28You've said a lot about how this is a negotiation.
01:30You just mentioned it again.
01:31Just yesterday, President Trump said, quote,
01:33Big business is not worried about the tariffs because they know they are here to stay,
01:37unquote.
01:38And take a listen to the Commerce Secretary.
01:42I don't think there's any chance that President Trump's going to back off his tariffs.
01:46This is the reordering of global trade.
01:50So are these tariffs to be negotiated, or are these tariffs here to stay?
01:54I'm still not getting a clear message on that.
01:59Well, listen, this is a national security issue.
02:02This is about reshoring thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of jobs.
02:08This is about moving our American farmers and ranchers into a new era of prosperity.
02:13This is about strong and bold leadership.
02:16And I'll tell you, Jake, this isn't just some new sort of concept that just came up
02:20the Trump years, under the last eight or 12 years.
02:23This started in 1791 with Alexander Hamilton, when he wrote a whole premise on the idea that
02:29Americans and the whole concept of America was founded on a fervent,
02:34positive protection of our goods out of America.
02:38And for 150 years, that was the approach, 150 years.
02:43And that's when America went from basically a frontier country to the world's largest,
02:49most exceptional economic power.
02:52And it was the dawn of the progressive era, about 100 years ago, that began to move back
02:56toward this idea of America being a neutral arbiter on the world stage.
03:00Well, listen, it's time to go back to our founding father's vision.
03:04And so as we move forward, this president is the chief dealmaker.
03:08He will ensure that America is put first, that all of these tariffs,
03:12a 300 percent tariff on our dairy products from Canada.
03:14I mean, it's absurd what our farmers and ranchers and our manufacturers
03:19have had to deal with over the last, you know, decades.
03:21And it's time to fix it.
03:23Yeah. The question was, are these tariffs here to stay, as Howard Lutnick and President Trump
03:28seem to be suggesting, or is there going to be room for negotiation, as you seem to be suggesting?
03:37Listen, we've got 50 countries that are burning the phone lines into the White House up and
03:44probably the president's cell phone as well and probably Howard Lutnick's as well.
03:49And I've heard from some as well.
03:51This is the ultimate dealmaker who is a businessman at the head of our government.
03:57Finally, that the American people said all swing states, all the popular vote,
04:02tariffs were a part of his plan.
04:04We're going to put America first.
04:06And he will do everything in his power all day, every day to do just that.
04:12Right now, we're two business days into this new American order.
04:15So I think we have a lot to be determined.
04:17But the president is resolute in his focus, in his boldness, in his fearlessness,
04:23and in his relentlessness to ensure that we're putting America first by using these tariffs,
04:28along with deregulation, cutting taxes, energy dominance.
04:33It's an entire package.
04:34But right now, obviously, the tariffs are front and center.
04:36I agree.
04:36President Trump talked about tariffs on the campaign trail.
04:38I think probably a lot of voters thought that he was talking about the kind of targeted tariffs
04:43that he implemented in the first term and not these global tariffs
04:46that have diminished, wiped $6.6 trillion of wealth off of Wall Street.
04:52But I have to say, he didn't, when he was campaigning, talk about the pain
04:56that he is now acknowledging.
04:58And I have to say, we're getting a very Pollyannish view
05:01of what's happening from the Trump administration.
05:04I disagree with that, Jake.
05:05Well, let me just finish the question.
05:06Let me just finish the question.
05:07That's not right.
05:08But there seems to be a lack of acknowledgement of the real pain
05:12and panic people are feeling right now.
05:13And I don't know if you saw it because you were on TV,
05:16but there was a moment on Thursday.
05:18You were on Fox Business.
05:19You were praising President Trump's leadership, celebrating these tariffs.
05:23And all the graphics surrounding you, again, this is on Fox Business,
05:27showed the markets in a nosedive.
05:29And so you disagree that I'm saying, I say there seems to be a disconnect
05:33between what you're saying and the reaction of the world.
05:34Tell me why you disagree.
05:36Listen, the president has, even in a State of the Union, I believe,
05:41he said that there will be some uncertainty.
05:44When we did the targeted tariffs in 2017, 18, 19 with China.
05:49I mean, listen, I was in the West Wing.
05:51I was helping run his domestic policy agenda.
05:53I was in those conversations.
05:55Secretary Sonny Perdue, the Secretary of Agriculture,
05:58put together a fund, basically, that allowed us to make whole farmers
06:04and ranchers that were immediately hurt and had to have some mitigation efforts.
06:09That happened.
06:09So the idea that we didn't know that there would be some uncertainty just isn't true.
06:14We knew there would be uncertainty.
06:16But to take Thursday or Friday, and as we are basically laying out the vision
06:22that the president effectuated in the Rose Garden on Wednesday,
06:25and to say, oh, the world is ending, the markets are crashing.
06:28The markets are adjusting.
06:30Anytime you've got a strong leader who's looking at the long term, not,
06:34how do I make sure Jake Tapper says nice things about me on State of the Union?
06:37Oh, maybe I shouldn't do the tariffs today.
06:39That just isn't how this president operates.
06:42He operates in, how do I save a country that for 100 years has been sliding toward decline
06:48as we have moved all of our manufacturing out into the world,
06:51as we have bowed at the altar of other countries' tariffs,
06:54as we have watched our farmers and our ranchers, again, can't get our corn into Mexico,
06:59can't get our dairy into Canada, have Honduras buying more pork and poultry
07:03than the entire European Union, have a 700% tariff from Japan on our rice.
07:08This is not OK, and it is not sustainable.
07:11And for us to continue to build our agriculture, which is the backbone of our country,
07:16but also our manufacturing base, our energy, et cetera,
07:18for us to be able to do that, we have to put America first.
07:22So those tariffs, as the economy, the market begins to adjust,
07:26we will see a more positive as we move, I believe, very quickly.
07:30So just in point of fact, the reason that the European Union,
07:33even though they are our fourth biggest market for agricultural products, as you know,
07:38don't take as much American pork as you would like,
07:40is because they have issues with hormones used in pork.
07:43I don't want to get into a whole debate over that, but that's not,
07:45it's not an issue about tariffs.
07:47But let me ask you about the computation of these tariffs,
07:49because conservative economists at the American Enterprise Institute—
07:52But wait, wait, wait.
07:53Hold on, Jake.
07:53No, no, no.
07:54No, no, no, no.
07:55No, no, no.
07:56This is really important.
07:56You can't just say that.
07:57So here's the bottom line.
07:59They are using fake science and unsubstantiated claims to not take our products.
08:04So it isn't just that they have high tariffs.
08:06Thank you for making this point for me, by the way.
08:08I meant to make it.
08:08It's not just the tariff numbers.
08:10It's the way they've treated our products.
08:12Oh, sorry, we can't take your beef since 2002 because you use a certain type of feed.
08:18That's just absolute bull.
08:20It is not correct and not appropriate.
08:22Our supplies, our farmers and ranchers, we produce the safest, the most secure,
08:28the best food in the world.
08:30And so to use that for the EU to say,
08:31oh, my goodness, we can't do it because of this reason,
08:34it's absolutely wrong and it's not based on sound science.
08:37OK, well, you can take that up with the Europeans.
08:39Conservative economists at the American Enterprise Institute say that when—
08:43I will.
08:43When the Trump administration came up with these tariff rates,
08:46you should have used as a basis the elasticity in the response of import prices
08:52to tariffs instead of retail prices.
08:55And AEI, a conservative group, says because the Trump administration mixed that up,
09:00the entire computation is wrong and these tariff rates are set four times too high.
09:05They make a compelling case.
09:06Is that true?
09:10Listen, I'm from the think tank world.
09:12I ran multiples of think tanks.
09:14I built the America First Policy Institute in the intervening four years
09:18between Trump one and Trump two.
09:20I have a lot of good friends at the American Enterprise Institute.
09:23I don't mean to throw all of them under the bus, but I will say this.
09:26AEI has never been a friend of the president's.
09:30They have never been a friend of an America First agenda.
09:32They have never come alongside and helped us effectuate what we believe is today's—
09:37Yeah, but did you use retail prices instead of import prices?
09:40And they're just wrong on this.
09:41So you didn't. You didn't use—
09:42They're just wrong.
09:43You know, Jameson Greer and Howard Lutnick and Scott Besant,
09:47these are the smartest, most incredible economists,
09:50businessmen on our side, along with President Donald Trump and J.D. Vance and others.
09:54I have 100% faith in the formulas that they used and how they came up with these numbers.
09:59All right.
10:00I mean, they say that you use retail prices as opposed to import prices
10:03and they make a compelling case.
10:04I'd ask you to check it out.
10:05The reason I ask you—
10:06I have not read—
10:07Yeah, well, I'd ask you to check it out.
10:09You should read it.
10:10The reason I ask is because a lot of people are questioning the level of scholarship here
10:14behind how these tariffs were done.
10:16For example, President Trump laid out with a giant graphic of all the countries
10:21where tariffs were going to—
10:22what he called reciprocal tariffs were going to be imposed.
10:25And you're imposing a 10% tariff on the Heard and McDonald Islands.
10:29The Heard and McDonald Islands have zero human inhabitants.
10:33They had zero exports.
10:34They had zero imports.
10:36They do have a lot of penguins.
10:38Why are you putting import tariffs on islands that are entirely populated by penguins?
10:44Well, I mean, that—
10:48Come on, Jake.
10:49Obviously—
10:51Here's the bottom line.
10:53We live under a tariff regime from other countries.
10:56We have too long—
10:58The McDonald Islands is not imposing—
10:59The idea that America goes first—
11:02I mean, come on.
11:04Whatever.
11:05Listen, the people that are leading this are serious, intentional, patriotic,
11:10the smartest people I've ever worked with.
11:12I did not come up with the formulas.
11:14I'm the ag secretary.
11:15I studied agriculture at Texas A&M.
11:17I was in a lot of conversations to make sure our farmers and our ranchers were part of that.
11:21The president recognized the importance of inputs.
11:24We got potash and fertilizer to make sure they could do their planting.
11:27But I have no doubt that I speak on behalf of President Trump when he would say
11:32he has the utmost confidence in the team
11:35and what they have built and what they have put together.
11:37And we are unleashing a new golden age.
11:40And we will see an economy that will benefit not just every corner of America,
11:45but our farmers and our ranchers and the people that have been left behind
11:48for far too long by both Republicans and Democrats.
11:51So you say that America's farmers and ranchers
11:53understand there's going to be this short time of uncertainty.
11:55And there were obviously financial help for farmers and ranchers
11:59during the first Trump administration.
12:02Take a listen to North Carolina Republican Senator Tom Tillis.
12:05Anyone who says there may be a little bit of pain before we get things right
12:10need to talk about farmers who are one crop away from bankruptcy.
12:13They don't have time.
12:14So we've got to be crisp on this implementation.
12:18Otherwise, we could do damage that's irreparable to farmers and businesses.
12:22What's your response to Senator Tillis?
12:26So the bottom line is this.
12:29In the last four years, the cost of inputs for our farmers went up $30 billion.
12:33In the last four years, we had an agriculture export deficit
12:38that increased from zero when President Trump left to $49 billion.
12:45Our farming and our farmers and ranchers are hurting.
12:48They are operating at margins of profit that are thinner
12:52than they have in a really long time due to the policies of the last four years.
12:58But to Senator Tillis's point, we have to be prepared
13:02that if there is longer term damage, and this president has been very focused on this,
13:07and I've been saying it pretty much ad nauseum for the last 50 days since I've been in office,
13:12is that we will make sure that we have the funds in working with the senators
13:17and working with the appropriators that we can do what we did last time,
13:20which I think Secretary Perdue last time spent about $25 to $28 billion
13:25to mitigate some of the fallout from the last tariffs for the short term.
13:29The long term, the tariffs worked.
13:31I mean, the research shows that we had an increase in productivity, increase in jobs, et cetera,
13:37until frankly the Biden administration stopped enforcing some of the deal once we left office in 2021.
13:44All right, Secretary Rollins, thanks so much for joining us today.
13:46We really appreciate your time and your expertise.
13:49Thank you, Jake.