In this episode of To The Point, we delve into the controversy sparked by Samajwadi Party (SP) leader Ramji Lal Suman's remarks on Rajput king Rana Sanga.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Choudhury. We have two debates
00:04lined up for you. First up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:12In Tehran relief for comedian Kunal Kamra, Madras High Court grants protection from arrest
00:16till April 7th, second summons to Kamra by Mumbai cops issued for March 31st.
00:26Supreme Court's big observation on free speech says free speech integral part of healthy
00:30society and poetry, arts and satire enrich life.
00:35There's been a big development in the Judge Cash Hall probe. Government approves transfer
00:44of Justice Yashwant Verma, Justice Verma to assume charge in his Allahabad High Court
00:48office.
00:56Bengal Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee heckled during Kellogg College speech in London left
01:00back SFI protesters raise Kolkata rape and murder horror.
01:20Politics over Mohanlal's Empuran film, Kerala Congress says movie exposes Sang agenda to
01:26capture the Kerala coastline.
01:34Bengaluru killer husband consumes rat kill poison after murder. Accused father says he
01:40asked Rakesh to surrender.
01:49Tobacco earthquakes jolt South Asia. Strong tremors in Thailand, China. Buildings collapse
01:54and bridges crash in Thailand. 25 dead in Myanmar. Tremors felt in Bangladesh.
02:12All right our top focus something that's resounding in Parliament as well. India in recent weeks
02:16have seen heated debates surrounding medieval history. After Aurangzeb grave debate Rajput
02:22Rula Rana Sangha has bought into its ambit with Rajya Sabha MP Ramjilal Suman in Parliament.
02:28Massive ruckus on the floor of the House in Parliament but a larger connotation on the
02:33political fallout back in Uttar Pradesh. History wars play out in Parliament. The BJP on Friday
02:48slammed Samajwadi party member of Parliament Ramjilal Suman's description of Rajput ruler
02:55Maharana Sangha as a traitor demanding an apology from the Samajwadi party Rajya Sabha
03:02MP. Union Minister Kiran Rijiju called Suman's statement on Maharana Sangha an insult.
03:25The Congress condemned the statement but also criticised the vandalism at the Samajwadi party
03:50MP's house in Agra by the Karni Sena on Wednesday.
04:21Rajya Sabha chairman Jagdeep Dhankar has expunged the Samajwadi party MP's statement. The Rajya
04:30Sabha was adjourned as the opposition and the Treasury benches sparred over Ramjilal Suman's
04:36remarks. I would appeal to all segments of the house that what happened in the house was expunged
04:48for a simple reason. It was outrageous. It was unexpected of a member.
04:57Amit's the uproar about his statement. Ramjilal Suman refuses to apologise
05:04for calling Rana Sangha a traitor.
05:17The BJP and the Samajwadi party have hardened their stance as the controversy snowballs.
05:48The fight over Rana Sangha's legacy is shaking up UP politics. Kshatriya outfit Karni Sena
06:01went on the rampage outside Samajwadi party MP Ramjilal Suman's house in Agra on Wednesday.
06:09The Samajwadi party has accused the Yogi Adityanath government of failing to provide security to a
06:16Dalit MP. BJP is saying that there isn't any need of doing the politics of caste when that attack
06:29happened on MP and it's all about politicising the event. Now it's going to be worth seeing
06:36where this PDA politics would lead to or some other pages of history still are unturned.
06:46So, if you heard my colleague Samarth, the curious case of caste comes into a controversy
06:54which resonated in Parliament about Rana Sangha. One would have thought it would be more to do with
06:59a Hindu-Muslim kind of debate but not quite. Why has it become caste based and especially
07:05resounding in Uttar Pradesh? Because Ramjilal Suman, the MP who called Rana Sangha a traitor
07:11is a Dalit. On the other hand, the Karni Sena that attacked the house of Ramjilal Suman,
07:17who is a Dalit, comes from the Rajput community Thakurs called in Uttar Pradesh.
07:22Just before we get into the meat of it, I want to give you the caste combinations in Uttar Pradesh.
07:26The upper caste comprises in totality of 20%. Look at the micro data there. Kshatriyas would
07:32largely be Thakurs, comprise 6%. OBC 39% but then I'd like you to look at and we'll go on to the
07:39Dalits and the Jatavs. And that is 12% Dalits and 21% Dalits in all, Jatavs 12%,
07:49Valmikis and other categories of Dalit about 9%. So 21% are Dalits and strangely,
07:56because of the caste calculations, the issue which resounded in Parliament about Rana Sangha
08:02became Dalit versus Thakurs or Dalit versus Rajputs in Uttar Pradesh. Dalit, the MP who
08:08called Rana Sangha a traitor, then the Rajputs, the community that Rana Sangha came from,
08:12took offense, the Karni Sena and vandalized the house of the Dalit MP. So the Rajput versus
08:19Dalit cauldron now boiling in Uttar Pradesh. Why is it all the more interesting? Because
08:24if we hark back all the way, I want to give you the Lok Sabha election data in terms of
08:32how both the Dalits and the Rajputs voted. Very, very interesting. If you look at that,
08:38the upper caste mostly voted for the NDA. 16% though voted for the India Alliance and in that
08:4516%, the Thakurs and the Rajputs belong to the upper caste category. There was a bit of
08:52disaffection within the Rajput community and especially in Western Uttar Pradesh,
08:58the Thakur Rajput community voted for the India Alliance. So there was a bit of defection from
09:05the BJP. The Rajputs in the state of Uttar Pradesh are traditionally a BJP vote bank,
09:12but some of them defected during 2014, 2024 general elections. But the big shift happened
09:19where you look at the Jatavs and the non-Jatavs. The NDA got just 29% of the non-Jatav votes.
09:26The India Alliance picked up a large chunk, 56% of the non-Jatav votes and that is where it gets
09:34interesting because the BJP has clearly benign the non-Jatav vote because the Jatav vote usually
09:40goes to the BSP, the rest taken evenly by the India-India Alliance. The BJP was hoping a large
09:46chunk of the non-Jatav vote comes back to the BJP, but this time it didn't. It went to the India
09:51Alliance. Therefore, there comes the conundrum both for the Samajwadi Party and the BJP because
10:01they will now have to get into a balancing act of sorts because the Samajwadi Party got the non-Jatav,
10:09the Dalit vote you can say, a large chunk of it that the BJP didn't get because the Samajwadi
10:13Party was with the India Alliance. But let me take you through the chronology. Why is it a balancing
10:19act for the Samajwadi Party? Samajwadi Party MP Ram Jilal Suman called Rajput ruler Rana Sangha
10:25traitor. Suman, a key Dalit leader, while Rajputs are a crucial vote base. Some of them, like I
10:31pointed out, voted for the Samajwadi Party. Rajput anger in West UP contributed to BJP's loss in 2024
10:38Lok Sabha elections. Akhilesh's PDA, which was the OBC Dalit minority strategy, helped SP win
10:4537 of basically helped the BJP of 80 seats. BJP dropped to 33 seats due to Rajput and Dalit
10:55disaffection. So, the Samajwadi Party here would want to placate both communities,
11:01the Dalit community as well as the Rajput community because they are hoping the disaffection
11:07which lay in 2024 Lok Sabha elections with the Rajput community still stays and simmers all the
11:12way to 27 Lok Sabha elections. Similarly, they are hoping that the Dalits that voted en masse
11:19for the India Alliance continue to stay with the Samajwadi Party and the India Alliance if they
11:24fight together where the UP elections are concerned. But the conundrum and the balancing act is not
11:29just the Samajwadi Party alone. The BJP is also caught in a catch-22 situation. The BJP does not
11:36want to create an anti-Dalit perception, but it doesn't also want to create an anti-Rajput
11:41perception. Let's get to the Dalits now. The Dalit community largely voted for India Alliance
11:46like I told you in Uttar Pradesh in 2024 Lok Sabha elections. The BJP wants to get the Dalits back
11:53into the BJP fold. The BJP cautious not to alienate Rajput voters ahead of state polls.
11:58BJP strategizing now to win back Rajputs recognizing their political clout in UP.
12:05But the BJP also wants the Dalit votes and in midst of it all the Samajwadi Party saying that
12:11it is the BJP that instigated an attack on the house. Of course, it was the Karni Sena,
12:16but the Samajwadi Party suggesting the BJP was hand in glove in the attack and they're not
12:20calling it an attack of an MP who criticized Rana Sangha or called Rana Sangha traitor.
12:26They are saying that the BJP instigated an attack on a Dalit leader. Now you get the politics and
12:31how it's a tough spot for both the BJP and the Samajwadi Party. So at the back of that,
12:37before we get into our political debate, the questions that I asked this evening,
12:40the Rana Sangha controversy clearly turning into a hot political potato which nobody wants.
12:49The BJP doesn't want because the BJP wants every vote, wants Hindu consolidation,
12:53wants the Rajputs, Dalits to come together. The Samajwadi Party wants possibly the caste breakup
12:59so the Dalits stay with it and the Rajput little bit vote goes back to the Samajwadi Party.
13:05The second question that I ask and remarks on Rana Sangha lead to
13:08caste polarization in UP. We're already witnessing the beginning of that.
13:12Thakurs versus Dalits. Who will benefit politically if this really happens? The
13:18Samajwadi Party or the Bharatiya Janata Party? Let's take all these questions to our panelists
13:22this evening. Joining me, Ghanshyam Tiwari, Spokesperson, Samajwadi Party, Tuhin Sinha,
13:27National Spokesperson, BJP, Sanjay Kumar, Co-Director, Lok Neeti CSDS and Syphologist.
13:32Before we get to our political debate, I'd like to take two quick questions with Sanjay Kumar and
13:37then we're going to let him go and free him of this political tutu mehmeh. So Mr. Kumar,
13:41I want to get you in right in the beginning. And my first question, if it really comes down
13:47you know, to a caste kind of polarization in Uttar Pradesh, Dalits versus Rajputs,
13:56Thakurs, you know, that is what they are called in UP, who stands to benefit?
14:02Who stands to benefit for what? Are we talking about the UP assembly election?
14:08I'll be talking about the, because what is the thermometer to figure out what is
14:14political benefit? I think the thermometer of measuring political benefit is who forms the
14:19government, who wins an election. Elections are almost two years away and it is very difficult
14:24to figure out at this moment. Yes, it will generate some heat, but who knows from now
14:29till two years, you know, when the elections are due, many things might come up and this issue
14:35might die down. I don't see the potential of this issue continuously going on for the next two years.
14:42If that happens, then we are heading for a different kind of politics in UP. So I think
14:48very difficult at this moment to say which party is going to even generate momentum in its favor.
14:55But if you look at the size of the two communities, see the Dalit vote doesn't go
14:59en bloc to the Samajwadi party. Dalit vote is divided, a very large proportion of the Jata
15:06vote goes to BSP, still goes to BSP. So whatever means Samajwadi party may do, I don't think
15:12they will be able to generate a huge support base among the Dalits based on this issue. If you look
15:19at the Rajput vote, the way Rajput vote is tilted in favor of BJP, leave aside one election,
15:26but overall if you look at the last 10-20 years, 10 years, you will see that the Rajput vote is
15:32tilted more in favor of the BJP. So it is a tight race, very difficult to say which party would
15:39certainly gain, but I think maybe the BJP may be able to gain more compared to Samajwadi party
15:45because BJP does not only get votes among the Rajputs, BJP also has good support base among
15:51the Dalits. Samajwadi party may not be having same support base among the Dalits and the Rajputs.
15:58Sanjay ji, you know what I'm going to do is, I'm going to ask our producers to play the 2024 data
16:02because you know this is just an exercise to look at it politically on how things pan out
16:06and we're putting out your data itself which is CSDS data and it does seem to suggest the
16:10non-Jata votes. 56% of the non-Jata votes, which in the earlier election in 2019, a huge chunk of
16:17this lay with the BJP. 56% of the non-Jata vote went to the India alliance and only 29% went to
16:24the NDA. Now at that point of time, there was the Samvidhan Khatre Mein Hai narrative and the India
16:29alliance hoping to constantly build on that narrative, especially the Samajwadi party,
16:33where the PDA concerned. So of course elections are two, you know, two years away, 2027, but if
16:41every small controversy is blown up into a caste polarizing debate, then there could be impact.
16:49This is the Lok Sabha election which you are talking about. What happened after the Lok Sabha
16:54election, the by-elections to 9 or 10 assembly constituency, you will not find the similar data
16:59as we are looking at the Lok Sabha election. Next election is going to be contested largely on
17:05which party is likely to form the government. Samvidhan Khatre Mein Hai cannot be a big narrative
17:10because when Samvidhan Khatre Mein is about the national politics, it's about party which forms
17:16the government because that party only has the right or the capacity to change the constitution,
17:22if at all they want to change the constitution. State government doesn't have the capacity to
17:26change the constitution. Other issues will dominate, not Samvidhan Khatre Mein Hai.
17:32So on that narrative, yes, we see a very different kind of elections in 2024.
17:37But the same narrative is not going to hold on, at least as of now, as it looks like to me,
17:42that it's not going to hold on in the assembly elections.
17:47All right, fair point. Appreciate you joining us Sanjay Kumar. I want to quickly bring in Ghanshyam
17:50Tiwari because Ghanshyam Tiwari at the back of what Sanjay Kumar just said and his wishful
17:54thinking where your PDA alliance is in question, because there is a clear attempt with Rana Sangha
18:00resounding in parliament by the virtue of the person behind the controversy being Dalit.
18:05You're constantly harping on his Dalit identity instead of what he said.
18:11Good evening Preeti to you, the viewers and my fellow co-panellists. There are three important
18:14things that the viewer need to know. One, BJP is not solving the problems India needs to face. For
18:20example, you look at the Indian Express of today, it will say that IITs have faced the lowest
18:24placement rates since 2021. Not one member of parliament will speak about it. So how do you
18:29escape the problems India is facing, whether it's employment, price size, you create issues,
18:34you create propaganda on religion. When BJP does that, when it is hunting every day on new propaganda
18:39of religion, they encounter something that Mr. Suman, the member of parliament said.
18:44And in response, BJP, which is an out and out party, which is powered by crony capitalists
18:50upper caste. If you look at what Adityanath said in 2022, that he's proud to play the politics of
18:57Thakurs. He said that in 2022. If you look at what in December 2024, Amit Shah said that
19:03Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar.
19:10These are the people who believe in Manuspriti. They don't believe in empowerment of backwards
19:14Dalits in India. So as a result, now they have encountered a situation where the most
19:20casteist and aggressive people in BJP are up against this issue that if a Dalit member of
19:27parliament speaks up, they are going to break his house, break his caste, threaten his life.
19:32And by that, they are going to say that this is the kind of model that we want.
19:37Whether it impacts 2027 or not, it is communicating a clear message that BJP is anti-Dalit.
19:43It will not allow a Dalit, even if he's a member of parliament to stand up, speak up and say what
19:48he wants to say. And if he says what he says, he says, then the parliament will debate it.
19:53When the goons of BJP will come and break his house, the goons of BJP will come and
19:58break his caste. A party that has continuously abused Nehru, a party who has people who pray to
20:04Nathuram Godse, a party whose antecedents, whose organizations such as RSS, ideological organization
20:14celebrated, distributed sweets when Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated,
20:17cannot come and preach that how do we respect our heroes, but they are doing that.
20:21Your time is up, Ghanshyam Tiwari. I'll come back to you. I want to bring in Tuhin Sinha into
20:25this conversation. You know, Tuhin Sinha, forget about the political impact of it in Uttar Pradesh.
20:29Let's ask a larger question here. A comedian makes a statement which is unsavoury to a political
20:36leader. The place where he makes that statement is vandalized. Multiple FIRs are slapped.
20:42A member of parliament makes a statement which is unsavoury to a particular community.
20:47His house in Agra is completely vandalized by the Karni Sena and the government does
20:52absolutely nothing about it. Many suggest our hand in glove in it.
20:58Well, good evening, Preeti. Good evening, everybody. Are you, you know, I thought you
21:01were trying to say the, you know, Samajwadi MP is a comedian, but he's not. You know, the fact
21:08is that Samajwadi party has indulged in a very malefied, in a very nefarious attempt, once again,
21:14to stoke divisions within the Hindu community. The entire attempt to paint Rana Sangha as a traitor,
21:21which is completely, you know, completely opposite of the truth. Rana Sangha was one
21:25of the bravest rulers of Mewar. At one point of time, he would operate with 18 wounds on his body.
21:33He defeated Ibrahim Lodi twice. He won around 100 battles in his life, except for one battle,
21:39which he lost. To paint such a person as a traitor, what was the intention of that?
21:44You know, coming from Samajwadi party, it had a clear twofold intention. One, obviously,
21:48was its minority vote bank. Somehow, you know, they wanted to make it seem that Babar was a
21:53good guy who was brought into India by an Indian traitor, which is absolutely contrary to the truth.
21:59But number two, it also wanted to stoke caste divisions in Uttar Pradesh, which is very evident.
22:05And why did they want to do it? Because of the massive Hindu unity, which they saw during Mahakum
22:11and throughout Mahakum. You have seen the kind of preposterous statements coming from all
22:16Samajwadi party leaders, including, you know, the most despicable one from Jaya Bachchan,
22:22wherein she said, lashe beh rahi hain, you know, which was a clear attempt to
22:26manufacture chaos in that region. But anyway, the larger point is that Samajwadi party will
22:32not succeed in it, no matter what they do. You know, the development model of Yogiji,
22:37plus the Hindu unity, which the country has witnessed post 2024 Lok Sabha elections,
22:45will make sure that such machinations of the Samajwadi party is conclusively and effectively
22:51defeated. And Samajwadi party is a party, you know, when they were in government, they would
22:56request to the court to exonerate terrorists. So we know the credibility of this party,
23:01we know its potential to manufacture...
23:04So, Heen Sinha, your time is up. I'm going to cut across back to Ghanshyam Tiwari,
23:07but allow me a question. I'm going to give you two more minutes.
23:09Let's say every allegations you've laid at the doorstep of Samajwadi party is correct.
23:13I am with you. You're preaching to the choir when you praise Rana Sangha and his bravery.
23:18But if somebody calls Rana Sangha a traitor, because the question that I asked you,
23:22and I didn't get an answer on, was to Heen Sinha. How is it all right to go and vandalize his house?
23:28How is it all right that no action is taken against the Karni Sena? How is it all right
23:32that one would sit here and defend that action in the name of the bravery of Rana Sangha?
23:38I'm not defending it. I have never defended it. I didn't defend it. No, no violence in any form
23:45can be condoned. But fact is, these are natural reactions. You know, if I talk ill of your
23:50predecessor, you will feel hurt. But obviously, you know, the protesters are not as sophisticated as you.
23:54You are defending that to Heen Sinha then. If you are saying it's a reaction, then, you know,
23:59you can go back, you know, to that saying, which many of us really don't want to say that every
24:03action has a reaction. It was made in a political context as well. Why is it so difficult for,
24:09why is it for, it's a basic question, sir. You can have a political debate. We can talk about
24:14the bravery of Rana Sangha. Why is it so difficult to condemn action which has taken place where you
24:19can see arson, vandalism, harassment. The action will be taken. There are situations which flare
24:26up suddenly and for which, you know, the administration takes its time. But we have
24:29seen action in Uttar Pradesh. In Uttar Pradesh, law and orders is handled in the best, in the
24:34most effective manner. But yes, like I said, you know, there are instances, there are instances.
24:41Fair point, but I don't think, you know, I'd like to, you know, I would say many would like
24:45to put their money on if bulldozers are going to roll at the back of action taken against the
24:51goons who vandalize property, public property. That's some of them. I want to bring in Ganshaam
24:55Tiwari back into this conversation, but Ganshaam Tiwari, let's flip this around because what
24:59Tuhin Sinha said, what you're doing today, you're only fanning the flames of caste polarization
25:06in a state which can be, which is already sitting on a tinder box. To make this more about Dalit
25:13identity and possibly less about what he said, you're playing with the worst form of politics.
25:20When you have an entire party, Preeti, going around with kerosene and petrol,
25:24looking for flames. When they look at Kerala, they look at the Kerala story. That's what Kerala for
25:29them is. When they come to UP election, they say, batenge, katenge. They say 80-20 election.
25:35You look at the number of hate speeches BJP makes regularly. They will not be singing the national
25:40anthem as many times as their people are making hate speeches. So when you have an entire party,
25:45which is in power, running around with petrol and diesel to look at flames, this is what happens.
25:51Now coming to the whole point of action and reaction that Tuhin spoke about.
25:54Abhi ek fashion ho gaya hai. Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar, Ambedkar,
25:59itna naam agar Bhagwan ka lete to saath janamon tak swarg mil jata.
26:02This is Amit Shah. What action was taken? What action was taken against Ramesh Viduri?
26:07What action was taken against a noted member of parliament who insulted the women wrestlers of
26:13India? The BJP as a party is morally bankrupt. Right now they are very powerful, but they are
26:19morally bankrupt. And when this morally bankrupt party goes and assaults everything that they see
26:25in front of a house of a Dalit member of parliament who spoke his mind, whether it is factually right
26:30or wrong, you can criticise them. But to go in like this, to break every car that is in front
26:36of his house, to break his house, and a chief minister who has openly said that I am proud to
26:42be a Thakur politician, this shows the mindset of the party, the mindset of Amit Shah, the mindset
26:48for RSS, that they are anti-Dalit. They don't want caste censors. They don't want backwards
26:53and Dalits in this country to rise. And they will use the Hindu-Muslim propaganda to ensure
26:58that this model of upper caste, casteism that allows crony capitalists to grow, that allows
27:05few people to benefit, will continue. Before I go back to Tuhin Sinha and Ghanshyam Tiwari,
27:10I want to ask you a very quick question because you have rights to criticise and question
27:17the chief minister speaking of a particular Thakur lobby. But it becomes a little rich
27:22because anyone who has followed UP politics and Ghanshyam Tiwari, you would know very well
27:26your own history, where you've had your own party patriarch, Mulayam Singh Yadav,
27:31standing on a dais and openly talking about Yadav support and Muslim support.
27:36We have, we believe in Lohia and Ambedkar. We believe that thousands of years of injustice
27:42that has been meted out to Dalits has to be undone, that has been meted out to the
27:47backward caste has to be undone. So Ghanshyam Tiwari, you'd admit this is a new policy that
27:52you've adopted under Akhilesh Yadav? From MY it's PDA? At least there's admittance of that,
27:58it's fine to learn in politics. The latest MY is Modi and Yogi.
28:04As long as you admit it is the latest MY, because the erstwhile MY was Muslim and Yadav.
28:11So I'll just go, I'll come back to you. I want to bring in, I want to bring in,
28:14you know, Tuhin Sinha back into this conversation. Tuhin Sinha, once again,
28:18I'll come down to the sheer fact. We can go into many debates where we constantly
28:23criticise what this particular MP says. I don't even want to harp on his identity. What he said
28:27was incorrect, should have been criticised, debated. But abject brute force being used
28:32on the streets. And it's not one occasion. It's not one instance. Anything unsavoury,
28:37which is being said, is dealt with violence. Well, violence in any form has to be condemned
28:45and we condemn it. But Karni Sinha is not BJP. Karni Sinha has nothing to do with BJP. You know,
28:51a few years ago they were protesting against a movie. Was that at the behest of BJP?
28:56The point is that there are certain people, there are certain elements in our society,
29:00whether it is Kunal Kamra or whether it is this MP, you know, who has been suddenly brought up
29:04by the Samajwadi Party. The whole intent, the whole purpose of them is to provoke certain
29:09sections of society, is to provoke the, you know, the emotions and especially the lineage of people,
29:16you know, facts concerning the lineage of people. And such provocations sometimes have
29:22a big impact, which we are witnessing. Obviously, the violence will be controlled and, you know,
29:27you will see the violent protesters being taken to task. But I think, you know, the initial
29:33reaction shows the quantum of hurt, the quantum of, you know, the provocation that existed.
29:41All right. Well, we'll see. Now, I don't see, you know, Kunal Kamra, and I did hear his podcast,
29:47and correct me if I'm wrong, he didn't criticize Eknath Shinde's lineage of being Maratha.
29:53No, no, please.
29:53I didn't hear that. Did you?
29:56No, no, I'm talking about the Samajwadi Party MP over here. As far as Kamra is here, please,
30:00I, you know, you may talk about him. I don't consider him a comedian. Somebody whose only
30:04purpose is to slander people. He is, you know, the henchman of the...
30:09Well, take him on, take him on legally in court, because the court today has given a sobering
30:13message. Tuhin Sinha, the court today has given a sobering message where the top court of the
30:18country has practically said that freedom of speech cannot be at the behest of certain insecure
30:24people. You can make what you might want. The freedom to provoke should also not be that way.
30:28Deal with him in court. You vandalize... Is it fair to vandalize? Once again, we'll come back to
30:33the... But, Tuhin Sinha, once again, we come back to it, that he doesn't have the right to
30:38provoke, but if he has, you deal with him in court with defamation, no? Not with vandalism.
30:43Of course, we will deal with him in court, and we will deal with him in other courts which are
30:47within our powers. But a court of law, not a kangaroo court, I hope. But I want to bring in
30:53last one, one minute. Allow me, sir. Ghanshyam Tiwari, this politics which the Samajwadi Party
30:57is resorting to in the state of Uttar Pradesh will only backfire. That is what the BJP says.
31:02One minute, sir. To your viewers, I want to say that you have a national party which is hunting
31:07across the country with petrol and diesel to find a flame whenever they can find.
31:12And what will be burnt is the future of our youth, because they would not discuss employment.
31:17They will not discuss the fact that people in IITs are not getting placed. They will not discuss
31:20that people, Indian students in US are getting trashed, sent back. They are worried. They'll
31:25not discuss what is happening with H1B green card. They'll not discuss what's happening to
31:29the stock market. And because it is... They are failing at every level. They are failing to
31:34improve the lives of 140 crore Indians that voted this government in. And because they are failing
31:40and they don't have answers, Adityanath will not have answer for your child's employment.
31:44Adityanath will not have answer for price rise. Mr. Modi has already checked out on these issues.
31:49So they will continue to find one statement of some MP, some politician here and there,
31:55so that the propaganda, the fuel that they want to inflame your emotions will continue.
31:59But when people vote, they will know that their real issues will matter. That is our hope,
32:04that is our aspiration. One minute, Tuhin Sinha, closing comments, sir.
32:08Well, the number of times my friend Ghanshyam says that we have sprayed kerosene, it almost
32:13seems that he has joined Rahul Gandhi. But anyway, the larger point is that he has listed many issues
32:17which we are not discussing. Is Samajwadi Party ready to discuss the immigration and foreigners
32:21bill? Are they ready to discuss the Vakfat? You know, this has been one of the most productive
32:26parliament sessions and he's saying nothing is being discussed. Every day a new bill has
32:31been introduced. Every day, robust discussions have taken place. And even in the last 10 years,
32:35since he believes that nothing has happened in the country, let me tell you about the 25 crore
32:38people who have been brought out of poverty, the 100% electrification of homes, the massive
32:44infrastructure creation across the country. So we have enough issues to discuss. I think the
32:48Samajwadi Party should grow out of its toxic mentality to divide the Hindu community on the
32:55basis of caste and what they have done through this particular member of parliament is
33:00malafite, it is sinister and I think, you know, it needs to be condemned unequivocally.
33:05All right, I appreciate both of you for joining us. We're going to let it be, let our viewers
33:09decide on what side of the fence that they stand on. Big verdict from the top court of the country
33:16with a bigger message to our political class.
33:21The apex court today upheld free speech.
33:27Junking FIR filed by the Gujarat police against Congress MP Imran Pratap Gadi,
33:34calling free speech integral part of healthy society.
33:37A bench comprising justices Abhay Sokha and Ujwal Bhuyan held that no offence was made out,
33:46criticising the overzealousness of the Gujarat police in initiating action against Mr Pratap
33:52Gadi. The Supreme Court said that restrictions on speech must be reasonable, not fanciful,
33:59stressing that Article 19.2 of the Constitution cannot overshadow the freedoms guaranteed
34:06under Article 19.1. Without freedom of expression of thoughts and views, it is impossible to lead a
34:13dignified life as guaranteed under Article 21 of the Constitution. In a healthy democracy,
34:20differing views must be countered with counter speech, not suppression. The court said,
34:25literature, including poetry, drama, films, stand-up comedy, satire and art makes life
34:32meaningful. The remarks come on the middle of a massive political row involving stand-up comedian
34:40Kunal Kamra and what he said in his set about Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister Eknath Shinde.
34:48Big message from the top court. Will our political class listen?
34:55That is our top focus on To The Point this evening.
35:03Top question that I ask this evening in our second debate. Free speech message by the top
35:08court but will our political class listen? That is what we are asking. Second question.
35:13Are we strangely in a dangerous phase of complete defiance of court guidelines? Not just about free
35:20speech, viewers, the court has laid very strict guidelines where bulldozers are concerned. Yet
35:26we see bulldozers rolling across the country. The third question that I ask this evening. Free
35:33speech hostage to interpretation of judges because Imran Pratap Garhi might have gotten lucky with
35:39these two judges. But we've seen in the past where some other judge would interpret something not as
35:47freedom of speech but incitement to violence. So somewhere down the line is free speech just
35:54how the bench or the judge interprets it. Let's take it to our political face off this evening.
36:01Shaina Ensi, Leader Shiv Sena, Charan Singh Sapra, National Spokesperson, Congress. Shaina
36:06Ensi, I'd like to begin with you and I'd like to quote what the Supreme Court said today because
36:10the larger sobering message should also be knocking on Maharashtra's doorstep.
36:14But the top court of the country and the learned bench said that free speech is practically held
36:20hostage by insecure people. I don't know, are they talking about Eknath Shinde, your leader and
36:25Deputy Chief Minister? Clearly not. There are lots of references to context, Preeti, but I think
36:33Article 19.1 is clear enough. Restrictions on speech. How do you define what is reasonable
36:41and what is fanciful is for the honourable courts to interpret. But as far as we are concerned and
36:47the Kunal Kamra case is concerned, he was absolutely a puppet under the guise of being a comedian.
36:53So that's a different story altogether. And who gives him the right under freedom of expression
37:00to be vulgar? Who gives him the right under freedom of expression and speech to call our leader
37:07traitor? Nobody can cross the Lakshman Rekha and should not. And I'm glad that the honourable
37:13court has also viewed the differing views can be countered with differing opinion. But
37:19suppression is not the only form. But we would want healthy debate and dialogue. But you cannot
37:25use condescending terms. Preeti, it's important to understand that way where humour stops,
37:31humiliation can't start. So you cannot equate humour with humiliation. And when it comes to
37:37even literature, poetry, comedy, films, the list is endless. There are humour is the essence of
37:44life. But there were stalwarts like RK Lakshman, Mario Miranda, Balasaheb Thackeray himself,
37:50who always used tongue in cheek and humour without hurting people and their emotions.
37:57So I think the apex court holding for free speech is welcome. But also understanding that case to
38:04case it differs. And when you have an FIR registered, I mean, different people react to
38:10different situations differently. Preeti, we may discuss in a television debate, somebody else may
38:16take to the streets, somebody else may feel that, oh, this this leader has impacted our lives so
38:21much that how can you use such adjectives? And how can you be a puppet at the hands of certain
38:26political clowns who just want to, you know, hog the limelight or get their own traction out of a
38:33controversy? So I think every case... Your time is up. You were given two minutes. I'll come back
38:37to you. I'll circle back to you. And you know, possibly a question we must address is something
38:41we all know, because it all depends who draws that Lakshman Rekha. It's very, you know, subjective.
38:47Number one. Number two, even if humour turns into humiliation is violence, something that should
38:53be accorded to no matter how humiliated somebody gets. We're going to come back to that. Charan
38:57Singh Sapra, I'm going to bring you in. Because Charan Singh Sapra today, you know, you might sit
39:01on a high moral ground and, you know, preach to China and see, you know, in this case, on the
39:10values of freedom of speech. But even your government, even your allies, you were in
39:16government with the Shiv Sena under Uddhav Thackeray, multiple accounts that the same
39:21Shiv Sena felt humiliated and went on to physically attack somebody or resorted to violence. I'll give
39:27you an example of the Rajasthan police at that point of time under Mr. Ashok Gelot came knocking
39:33on a journalist's door in Delhi because they thought what he said was unsavoury.
39:39See Preeti, number one, I would like to say that the Supreme Court has given a landmark judgment
39:43today. And very clearly they have said that Article 19.2 cannot overshadow the freedom of
39:51speech given under Article 19.1. So 19.1 has to be safeguarded. This is the prime thing
39:58what the court has said. And now as far as you are giving, trying to give some examples of
40:04during the Congress rule or maybe the Mahavikas Agadi rule, I can also give you hundreds of
40:09examples of BJP during the BJP rule. And I can also give a few examples in which even the Congress
40:18leaders were criticised everywhere on every stage. The court has rightly said that criticism
40:23in form of drama, poetry or maybe art, that should be welcome. And Narendra Modi himself in a
40:31podcast few days ago, he has said that criticism should be welcome. So what is the BJP or the
40:37Mayuti leaders talking about? They don't listen to their own Prime Minister, to Narendra Modi.
40:43So the issue is that, let me also remind you that the Sony TV in Comedy Circus also had a
40:50broadcast in which Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi was shown and elaborate like a nearly
40:5720 minutes play was shown over there in the Comedy Circus. We did not object. There are
41:04so many films which have come on Srimati Indira Gandhi and various other Congress leaders. We
41:09have not objected to that. And what is happening in this case is that leaders of, high-ranking
41:16leaders like Naresh Maske, the Member Parliament, Sanjay Nirupam, various other leaders, two
41:21ministers Shambhu Raj Desai and Yogesh Kadam, they are saying that we will burn the Kunal
41:27Kamra in a tyre. So what is this happening? This is a politics of oppression. This is a politics
41:33of suppression. They can't suppress the feelings, they can't suppress the criticism, criticism
41:38should be welcomed and criticism should be tackled with a counter-speech. If they don't
41:44have a counter-speech, then that is their... Okay, your time is up. Your time is up. Shaina
41:49NC, while you made your submissions, one of my producers has actually sent me a lot of cartoons
41:55by RK Lakshman and some of them actually made quite a bit of fun of Balsaheb Thackeray as well
42:00and they both enjoyed a very, very close relationship and I think you'd understand that.
42:04The fact is, Shaina NC... Working fun is one thing, Preeti, but I think that we understand
42:10that when there's repartee, it's an exchange of commentary. No, it wasn't an exchange. He
42:15had taken offence. He had taken offence, but... You've never called somebody a traitor. Okay,
42:19but the fact is, Shaina NC, just a question before we, you know, start your timer. It
42:24stems from the fact, of course, that our politicians, whichever side of the divide,
42:27have grown a very thin skin, number one, whether you admit it or not. Number two,
42:31with whatever you said, no matter he was a puppet, a staged puppet, he came from a political
42:37ideology, he said something which was completely wrong, humiliation. How is it that there is a
42:43defence of the violence that was conducted at the back of it? I'm glad you've come to this point
42:50too, but first I want to highlight that two and a half years when Eknatji Shinde was the then
42:55Chief Minister of Maharashtra, you didn't have one case of anyone being arrested, going to jail,
43:01irrespective. There were so many, you know, journalists also who wrote against us,
43:06wrote for us, and there were counter opinions, contrarian opinions, not once. Cut to, you look
43:12at Uddhav Thackeray. Don't forget what happened with Ketki Chitale. Don't forget what happened
43:17with a Navy officer. The Sainiks then, prior to the current scenario, put people behind bars and
43:26behind bars for a long period of time. Now, if you look at the current scenario, you talked about
43:32R. K. Lakshman. Yes, of course, critique, commentary, but don't humiliate. And if you
43:38are going to be this classist, elitist comment of saying that a rickshawwala cannot become the
43:43Chief Minister of Maharashtra, and the most popular Deputy Chief Minister who has done work
43:48on ground, impacted lives… At the cost of coming in China and to deal with him in court is the
43:53Kader will respond differently. For every action, you have a reaction. It's not as if 12 people were
43:59not arrested. Of course, law should take its course. Of course, the police should do its job,
44:03and they have done so. 12 people were arrested. But to constantly say that, oh, what was this
44:09violence? I mean, you humiliate my leader to the extent of making it out to be that an aspirational
44:16story of a rickshawwala cannot become the Chief Minister. He is a traitor. He's a gaddar, which
44:21is all nonsense. Because when he left, we know what has happened. The reality is the timing is
44:26question and suspect. It's a diversionary tactic in this case. And please note that 2024, the
44:32mandate for Eknath Chinde and the Shiv Sena has been so astounding that obviously certain people
44:39have no option but to use stooges like Kunal Kamra to play this puppet role at a question time, which
44:45is obviously very suspect to all our minds. And yes, the reaction could have been different,
44:51but different people react differently and the court, the law does take its course.
44:56Well, you know, that's the point is every time you attach a butt to it, you lose the essence
45:00of the criticism there, Shaina Ansi, and you know that better. But Charan Singh Sapra,
45:04I want to bring you in because the sad part is Charan Singh Sapra, where you said,
45:07it's only it's all about what about reason, because you have a Shaina Ansi and she's very
45:11correct, where she named I can add three more to the list of the naval officer, Ketki Chitale,
45:17you know, Saad Ansari, there are many, there are many there. And you also recall, okay,
45:22this might have happened, but this didn't happen. It's all about what about it's about
45:25what suits you politically. See, Preeti, if we go into such examples,
45:30let me tell you that the BJP leaders right from Delhi to Delhi have been talking all this,
45:36the kind of hate speeches more than dozen leaders of BJP are there in the country,
45:41who are always giving hate speeches, I did not take, I should not take their name also today.
45:46So what is BJP wanting, or the Mahayati wanting, they are going to decide, they are going to
45:52certify what is abusive and what is not abusive, then there is no law, then ultimately what
45:58happens the court, courts have to take decision like they have taken decision today in the case
46:02of Imran Patapgadi, similar thing might come in the case of Kunal Kamra also. So finally,
46:07what happens, the issue is that, and if I keep giving examples, then I can also say that
46:21Prime Minister standing in Parliament, he insulted Renuka Chaudhary by saying Suparnakha,
46:27Srimati Sonia Gandhi, Dr. Manmohan Singh, night watchman, I can give you hundreds of examples
46:35like this, where Prime Minister Narendra Modi, what about Ramesh Biduri, Ramesh Biduri in
46:41Parliament when the house was going on, what did he say, Katwe yeh woh, kya kya cheeje nahi boli
46:47hai, Anurag Thakur ne kya kya cheeje nahi boli hai, desh ke gaddaro ko boli maro saalo ko.
46:52So why no cases on them, why no cases when BJP leaders are doing water poultry and hate speeches.
46:59So this shows ki sanya bhai kotwal tab dar kahe ka, they know that it's our government,
47:04so that's why all the Shiv Senics entered there and vandalised the entire hotel. Now tell me,
47:09what is the fault of that hotel or the venue which was there? There was no fault of the venue person
47:16but the whole venue was vandalised, the hotel was vandalised and also the BMC went and they
47:23took action which was either necessary or not necessary, either legal or not legal,
47:29that we have to decide later. Your time is up, I'll give you one minute each and I'll come back
47:33to the second question that we asked, Shaina NC, the fact is there seems to be complete disregard
47:37of every guideline by the Supreme Court, number one on free speech, number two and even your
47:44government did so after what the Supreme Court said about bulldozers, very clearly calling it
47:49unconstitutional bulldozers rolled in Nagpur, only to then be you know wrapped by the High Court.
47:56No, see when it comes to the BMC acting or restrictions or when it comes to what is legit,
48:03what is not, obviously we all believe that it should be in accordance with law but if there
48:08are violations, why shouldn't those violations be acted on? I don't think this is a competition of
48:13what happened where, you talked about Nagpur, Nagpur was a clear case of an instigation to
48:20destabilize Maharashtra, the most peaceful state and the most peaceful city, which has actually
48:25been lauded for its sanskriti and sabita and there you had this gang of Fahim Khan, etc,
48:31who only wanted to destabilize what was going on and I think that to take, to really bring
48:38situations under control, it has to be the prerogative of the government of the day too.
48:43Devendra Fadnavis, as Chief Minister, I think has done a fantastic job of getting
48:47people on board and the authorities acting where they needed to and getting the situation under
48:52control, so I don't think we can compare both but I do want to say, when you call somebody a penguin
48:58and you put them in prison, what does that mean? No, fair point, I agree with all of that but like
49:02I said, the Supreme Court took a call, said very clearly unconstitutional if bulldozers rule. Yes,
49:07one minute sir, go ahead and I'm closing the show. See, now China is saying that
49:15Nagpur and this vandalization in Mumbai at Unicontinental Hotel cannot be kept at par.
49:20Why? Nagpur was also a riot, what happened in Hotel Unicontinental was equivalent to a riot.
49:26If there can be bulldozer in Nagpur, why this government is not sending bulldozer to the Shiv
49:32Senaks, who have vandalized the hotel. You can't differentiate like this, there cannot be two
49:36standards, there cannot be two set of rules, this is not the way governments are run. That's why the
49:42Supreme Courts or the High Courts, they have to interfere and they have to show the government
49:46their place, they have to show BJP their place, that you are doing wrong, this is what is called
49:52Hitler-shy, Tana-shy, that's what BJP is trying to do. Similar things happened in Nagpur and
49:57similar thing has happened in Hotel Intercontinental, so you can't differentiate like this.
50:04Okay, well that's all the time that we have for now, appreciate both of you for joining us,
50:08thank you.