Kerala Chief Secretary Sarda Murlidharan sparked debate on skin colour prejudice with a Facebook post. She discussed living with discrimination, societal beauty standards, and the need to challenge ingrained perceptions.
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00:00Let's turn to our news maker today.
00:03Kerala's Chief Secretary, Sardar Muralidharan,
00:06has sparked a debate on dark complexion
00:10and how society views it.
00:12What prompted her to write the post was a comment she said
00:15made by someone about her work
00:17who told Muralidharan her stewardship as Chief Secretary
00:21is as black as her husband's was white.
00:24Her husband was the previous Chief Secretary of Kerala.
00:28After making it public, she quickly deleted the post
00:31and then, when she saw the response to it,
00:34brought it back with a longer message
00:36on how she had learned to own her dark skin.
00:40Her comments have sparked a raging debate in Kerala and outside.
00:44Is black beautiful or not?
00:46Or is that simply political wokeism as it's described?
00:50I spoke earlier today to Sardar Muralidharan.
00:54Listen in.
00:59Joining me now is our news maker Sardar Muralidharan
01:03is the Kerala Chief Secretary who sparked off this debate
01:07over colour of the skin about being black
01:11and dare one say beautiful.
01:13Appreciate your joining me Sardar Muralidharan.
01:15I want to ask you this.
01:16What prompted you after all these years
01:19in public life, in public service
01:21to suddenly put down your thoughts about
01:24being a woman and dark
01:26and what it meant to be vilified
01:28because of the colour of your skin?
01:32Well, it was a very interesting comment, like I said.
01:35I mean, it's not often that you hear
01:38your administrative tenure being judged
01:42in terms of colour.
01:43So, it took me aback.
01:48It took my husband aback as well.
01:51You know, what actually is behind the comment of that nature?
01:56Just not the, you know, the person who made the comment
01:59thought he was making a joke.
02:01But for me, it was a conflation of both my skin colour
02:10with a sense of what black connotes for administration.
02:19Which I thought was rather strange.
02:21And I needed to get it out of my system, first of all.
02:26But is this something you've been living with?
02:29Yeah, in all my life.
02:31You say you wanted to get it out of your system
02:34but is this something you've been living with for years?
02:37Being regarded as lesser, as a lesser being
02:44on account of colour
02:46has been something that I have been living since,
02:48almost ever since I remember.
02:55But do you believe it's still a form of discrimination?
02:58For example, in the civil service,
03:00you've ended up being the Chief Secretary of Kerala.
03:02One of the few women Chief Secretaries.
03:04So, does it really lead to any form of discrimination
03:08because of the colour of the skin?
03:10Does it lead to prejudice in your view
03:12as you suggest in your Facebook post?
03:14Or is that much in the past?
03:16No, it's not.
03:18If it were in the past,
03:20then I wouldn't have heard a comment of that nature.
03:25So, discrimination has many forms.
03:27It's not necessarily active and in-your-face discrimination.
03:35It can be very subtle.
03:37It could also be subconscious.
03:39It might be well-intended too.
03:43I've had so many well-intended people tell me,
03:47whatever happened to you?
03:49Have you been out in the sun too much?
03:51You've gone so dark.
03:53And why are you wearing these kind of colours?
03:55They don't suit you.
03:56And these come from well-wishers.
03:58And hearing this on a very regular basis
04:02can be quite demeaning.
04:04Each one of us of colour
04:06and who has some complex or the other
04:09hidden up our sleeve
04:12find ways and means of negotiating that complexity
04:16and coming to terms with people who don't know better.
04:19But sometimes, you know,
04:22like I said,
04:24just something meant to be among friends.
04:27And then I realised that it was going way beyond
04:30my circle of friends,
04:32which is why I deleted it in the first place.
04:37But I brought it back precisely because
04:41I was told that it was important that somebody...
04:45But does it affect work?
04:47Does it affect work?
04:49No, it doesn't affect work.
04:51It doesn't affect my work here.
04:53Mrs. Muditharan, does it affect your work
04:55or your promotions or your sense of
04:58how your colleagues see you?
05:00Do you really believe it affects that?
05:02Or are these subtle perceptions?
05:04No, I wouldn't say that
05:06my skin tone has affected my work,
05:09has affected...
05:11Generally, it has not affected the perception
05:13of what I do.
05:15It was...
05:17But it was a...
05:19I have had, obviously,
05:21comparisons made
05:23and I also had
05:25issues of
05:27skin tone
05:29and beauty and all of that
05:31raised.
05:33But these two coming together
05:35has not been a common occurrence, no.
05:40But, you know, Mrs. Muditharan,
05:44Indian traditional beauty concepts
05:46have often revolved around fairness,
05:48matrimonial ads,
05:50fair and lovely creams,
05:53inventing...
05:55matrimonial ads, inventing phrases like
05:57wheatish complexion.
05:59We can go back even to our mythological epics
06:02where, you know, usually the
06:04villains will be seen as dark-skinned
06:07in some form.
06:09Do you believe, therefore,
06:11that this is something that we have
06:13had to live with because of our
06:15social conditioning?
06:17And therefore, what you are trying to do is
06:20encourage a younger generation to break out of that.
06:23That's precisely the thing.
06:25It's a socio-cultural conditioning.
06:27Very cultural too, you know.
06:29It's been ingrained.
06:31It's been indoctrinated into us.
06:33And it's about breaking that indoctrination.
06:35And how do you break that indoctrination is a question.
06:38So, it really doesn't...
06:40I mean, it's not just about...
06:42I mean, does this very tangibly affect your career?
06:45No, that's not really the question.
06:47The question is, has this been something
06:49that has been interfering with your perception of self?
06:52Has this been something that has been bringing you down?
06:55Have you had to fight it
06:57just in order to be
06:59a normal breathing human being?
07:06You mentioned in your Facebook post
07:09how your children advised you
07:11and helped you bury this ghost.
07:13What exactly did your children tell you,
07:15Mrs. Muralidharan?
07:17Well, you know, in the safety of the home,
07:21you generally wear your insecurities on your sleeve.
07:25And then when your children
07:27take those insecurities on their head
07:30and turn it and try to
07:32get you to see them differently,
07:34it helps.
07:35That's one point of it.
07:37One part of it.
07:38The other part is also
07:40to look at the world through their eyes.
07:43You know, because
07:44whether I like it or not,
07:46I have also, to a large extent,
07:48internalized this narrative.
07:51And, you know,
07:53felt that,
07:55you know, looked and
07:57seen beauty where I see
07:59fairness.
08:02And not notice
08:05the beauty lying in dark places.
08:07So, they have
08:09actually forced me
08:11to see that.
08:12And then I find that
08:13you actually need to go
08:15in search of such beauty.
08:17When somebody,
08:19when a dark model
08:20walks the ramp,
08:21you need to stop and say,
08:23hmm,
08:24look at her.
08:26And what is it that she brings to the table?
08:28How is she different?
08:30And enjoy the fact that
08:35she brings her own
08:37definition of beauty.
08:39And we need to see it
08:41and appreciate it.
08:43So, yeah, that's what they did to me.
08:49How did your husband,
08:51who has also been the former
08:53Chief Secretary of Kerala,
08:55in fact, your predecessor,
08:56and you contrast his fair skin
08:58with yours.
08:59How did he react to you
09:00actually going public with this?
09:02How have your colleagues reacted?
09:04Your juniors or your peers?
09:06Do they feel that this is
09:08a debate worth triggering?
09:10Or are you a bit of a lone ranger
09:12when you went out and
09:14put yourself out there
09:15and spoke about
09:17being dark skin?
09:18Okay, so the
09:20responses have been very interesting.
09:22Mostly, I've had
09:24two sets of responses.
09:25One is that,
09:26why are you allowing a petty
09:28comment get to you?
09:31That's been one series of comments.
09:34Another has been,
09:36you know, we know exactly
09:37what you're talking about
09:38because we've been through this.
09:40And I feel that the first comment
09:42actually comes from a place of
09:44privilege of not having
09:46gone through this.
09:47And the second,
09:48and most everybody who's been
09:50dark skinned
09:51has come out with this.
09:52But not just everybody
09:53who's dark skinned.
09:54I've had people who are
09:56bald and say, you know,
09:57how that's affected
09:59their sense of self.
10:00So it's about
10:02body shaming as well.
10:03It's about
10:05complete narrative of
10:07where you feel inadequate
10:09and how those inadequacies
10:11are thrust upon you
10:13and reinforced
10:14by social conditioning,
10:16by people who are
10:18closest to you and who care for you.
10:20That also is part of the story
10:22because you just can't escape it.
10:24So that's been
10:26something that we've
10:28both talked about.
10:29And, you know, from
10:31what does this have to do
10:33with my husband, Venu?
10:35And how did he see this?
10:37I mean, I didn't ask him
10:39when he posted,
10:40when I put up the first post.
10:42And he also felt that I
10:44really needed to just get it
10:46out of my system.
10:47So it is just a three line thing.
10:49So that is okay.
10:50But later on when I withdrew it,
10:52we had this conversation as to
10:54maybe
10:56I could
10:58turn this around into
11:00something which is positive.
11:02Something which positively
11:04talks about Black
11:06as beautiful,
11:08as claiming
11:10that space.
11:12And by virtue of the fact
11:14that I would do it, there would be
11:16a change.
11:18So when you look at
11:20my colleagues, there have been some
11:22colleagues who have been saying that, okay, you are making
11:24too much of a deal
11:26out of something very small.
11:28And there have been some
11:30who have been saying
11:32but most, and particularly
11:34my female colleagues
11:36have all been saying yes.
11:38I am glad you spoke out.
11:40I am glad you called this out.
11:46Okay, in conclusion
11:48let me ask you,
11:50do you believe anything will change
11:52as a result of people coming out?
11:54You have said at the end, Black is beautiful,
11:56Black is gorgeousness,
11:58that I dig Black.
12:00Do you believe that more and more
12:02people in Malayali society,
12:04in Kerala itself and indeed
12:06across this country
12:08will realize that times have changed
12:10or do you believe you are fighting
12:12a bit of a losing battle
12:14given that these prejudices have existed
12:16for centuries?
12:18The prejudices have existed
12:20but also I find that the counter movements
12:22also exist.
12:24And these are pretty evident now.
12:26You know, if you have got
12:28a dark model walking the ramp,
12:30if you have got
12:32makeup for dark people to
12:34highlight
12:36who you are and the luster of being dark,
12:38then we are talking about
12:40the fact that another discourse is already there.
12:42And let's just,
12:44this might help to speeden
12:46that discourse.
12:52Well, all I can say, Sardar Modi Narayanan,
12:54as someone who has often also been
12:56accused of being a dark-skinned
12:58anchor,
13:00I am more than happy to wear
13:02the color of my skin on my sleeve
13:04and be proud of the way I am
13:06as I am sure you are.
13:08And thank you for speaking out so loudly
13:10and clearly.
13:12And I hope it will make at least
13:14some difference out there.
13:16Thank you. Thank you, S.D. Bye.