In the aftermath of the Six Nations, Martyn, Phil, and James debate who the starting XV should be for the British Lions Tour.
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World's Kick and Chase Rugby Union podcast. The 2025 Six
00:10Nations is now concluded and that means we get the fun task of picking our British and
00:14Irish Lions starting 15 and replacements for the test matches against Australia this summer.
00:21I'm your host Martin Simpson joined once again by my colleagues James Copley and Phil Bramley
00:26and we're going to get right into things now because we have got a lot to get through.
00:31We're going to do this quite simply one through 15. I believe that will probably naturally
00:36give us our replacements bench and at the end we're also going to pick a captain each
00:41and we're going to pick a bolter each. So let's get started guys. I dare say I'm going
00:48to say this a lot and I might be proven wrong. I don't think Loosehead and Hooker are going
00:54to be overly contentious positions for us. I've got Andrew Porter at one and Dan Sheehan
01:00at two. Is anyone disagreeing with that? That's exactly what I've got. Phil's about to bring
01:06up Ellis Enge and Jamie George. Well I'm going to say I think I think Sheehan is absolutely
01:12nailed on. I think he's one of maybe three or four that you could say absolutely no debate
01:17about. He had a great Six Nations. I do think Porter like a lot of the Irish boys maybe
01:23did take a little step back from the Six Nations. If we did this before before the
01:26tournament started I think we've been probably a lot more Irish in that forward pack but
01:30they did go down a little bit. I do think Enges has played well. Definitely. I think
01:36he will. It will be part of the mix. And I think to be fair Jamie George again lost England
01:42captaincy but has absolutely roared back in. I don't think he'll start. I think Sheehan
01:46is nailed on start but I do think Jamie George will probably be the guy who comes off the
01:50bench potentially to help out. His experience, what he's been through of late, I think he's
01:58going to really add something to that tour. But yeah, no arguments for those two for me.
02:02So if it's a big squad I've got a 42-man squad I think. So I've got Porter starting at Loosehead,
02:07Dan Sheehan starting at Hooker but I'm also taking Skooman, Genge, Dowey Lake and Jamie
02:11George. I think Dowey Lake deserves to be a tourist if it's a large squad that is. Yeah
02:16I definitely agree with that. I think, is it Dowey? I've always called him Dewey. Dowey
02:22Lake. Yeah, I'd go along with that. I definitely think if we're going to get into the sort
02:29of mid-week squads, I could see them going. I think Sheehan will go as well. I do think
02:35though in terms of, because we do need to pick sort of replacements and there are going
02:39to be front row replacements. I would imagine if Andrew Porter is your start in Loosehead,
02:44Ellis Genge probably goes as a replacement. I think bringing that level of experience.
02:49I do think Sheehan will push him hard for that replacement spot. But for me I've got
02:54Porter at one and Genge as the replacement Loosehead. And then I've got Jamie George
02:58as a replacement Hooker. I don't feel like any of our Hookers in the sixth nation. I
03:02mean Dan Sheehan's clear ahead in that position. Jamie George is second. Scotland obviously.
03:09I think Ewan Ashman was looking promising for a while last year and the year before
03:13but obviously losing his spot to Dave Cherry. And then when he did come off the bench, mostly
03:19he failed to impress in the six nations. So I've got Dan Sheehan starting at two and Jamie
03:24George as a replacement. Far too much agreement so far. This time we've got tight head now.
03:35So my opinion on this one is that Tide Furlong missed most of the six nations, but I don't
03:41think any other tight head this year has done enough in the six nations for me to think
03:48they've overtaken Furlong in terms of what he brings in his scrummaging and how scarily
03:55fast he gets about the pitch for a man of his size. It was kind of there for Xander
04:01Fagerson for the taking and Xander Fagerson rarely has a bad game for Scotland and this
04:05six nations was no exception. But I just think for me, even though he didn't play much
04:11in the six nations, I think Furlong is still the best option at tight head. So me personally,
04:16I've got Furlong starting with Xander Fagerson as a replacement, but I imagine there might
04:21be some other opinion. I'm going to have to say because of his performance, Will Stewart
04:26for me has been phenomenal in the six nations. He's come from absolutely nowhere. And I have
04:31to say playing in that BAFF team and going up against Thomas de Toorts in training, I
04:37think that definitely is going to help him out. But I think he's been phenomenal. One
04:41of the sort of surprising statistics in the six nations was how well England scrum performed.
04:47I think that's no small credit down to Tom Harrison as a young scrum coach. He didn't
04:52get much of the headlines in terms of that England performance team, but the way that
04:56England scrum has performed as a unit, particularly as Bortwick's picked sort of a lighter back
05:01row and hasn't gone for some of the absolute monster people that like the French scrum
05:06has in their pack. I think Stewart, it definitely for me should be in the reckoning. I think
05:11yeah, I mean, Furlong just for his body of work up until now is fantastic. Whether he
05:16can replicate that, I mean, miss so much, I don't know. Certainly if you're picking
05:19out on players that are fit right now, Stewart starts for me, but I completely get the Furlong
05:23will make the play. Fingers crossed that he's fit and ready to go by then.
05:27My one, two, three for this was Furlong, Ferguson and Stewart. Just Furlong because of his body
05:31of work. Ferguson's got that little bit more experience, but Stewart made it in there because
05:35he was very, very good. I think in terms of the six nations, it's interesting, isn't it?
05:39Because a lot of the English lads seem to have stepped forward a little bit, whereas
05:42a lot of the Scots that you may have thought were sort of nailed on at the start, they've
05:46sort of taken a step back. So it's very interesting to see what Farrell does and makes of that,
05:51isn't it? Is there going to be a lot of recency bias or will he stick to the body of work,
05:55as you mentioned?
05:56So that's, yeah, I have total respect for everything you're saying about Will Stewart
06:03and I'm certain he will go on tour. But obviously James and I have a, we've got a two to one
06:08here, Phil, which is how we're going to tie break this. So that gives us a starting front
06:13row, all Irish of Andrew Porter, Dan Sheehan and Tyke Furlong. Country strong Tyke Furlong
06:19right in there. And a replacement front row of Ellis Genge, Jamie George and Xander Fagerson
06:26that we can all agree is pretty formidable. It's not like anyone's going to do that. And
06:31like you say, if Furlong's injury history, obviously having Will Stewart there, and I
06:36wouldn't be surprised to see Stewart almost leapfrog Fagerson into the starting tight
06:40head if that does happen. But right now, I would say that's how I'm shaping it up. We've
06:46got locks next. This again, I imagine could be slightly contentious. So I think first
06:53of all, I would say we're all agreed that Tyke Byrne's going to be one of the starting
06:57locks. Is there any dispute on that?
06:59I don't really think there's any dispute on the other one, personally, but I think I know
07:06where Phil's going, but I think it's a told you. I think I told you nailed on us to start
07:13and we'll get onto the captaincy stuff later, but yeah, he's got to play. I'll let you take
07:18it away, Phil, but yeah, I suppose maybe not so contentious after all, because I've picked
07:24a told you as well. I know he's a bit more mighty and he devices divides opinion, but
07:29one when he's good, he's beyond good when he's at his best. He's the best in the world.
07:34There's no denying that. I really don't get it. I think that's because he sets his levels
07:40so high that when he dips below them, it is slightly noticeable. And obviously England
07:44don't play well when he doesn't play well, but he is, he's the best of the world in this
07:48position for me. Yeah, sorry, Phil. I will. I promise I'll let you take this away. The
07:53biggest thing for me, I noticed is I don't think there's a lot of strength and depth
07:57in this position for the lines in general. We can, we can speak about some of the other
08:01names that are in the mix, but after Byrne and the told you, yeah, I'll let you, I'll
08:07let you take it away now, Phil. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting point because actually
08:11in that, in that last game, England effectively only had a told you really left on the pitch
08:16as, as a proper lock, as opposed to a combination back row, second row. I do think that I take
08:24your point. He's Marmite. People have talked about that. They're kind of plastic energy
08:28and they don't like him when he kind of cheers it. When, when teams knock on, whatever. I
08:31think that seems to have dropped a little bit out of his game. I think the captaincy
08:35given the captaincy, both of Saracen's and of England has bizarrely taken him to an even
08:41higher level where he seems to be just, just really focused. And I think James is right.
08:45He, he's so good that you kind of forget that he's always like an 80% guy. He's always fantastic.
08:51And occasionally he just goes up, up and beyond. Yes. He's given away a couple of silly penalties,
08:56but I also think, and we'll come to captaincy later, the way that he, his presence on the
09:00pitch, the way that he speaks to referees, the way that he's able to kind of, I'm not
09:05saying anybody necessarily can change referees' minds, but he is so good at winning the respect
09:11and the opinion of referees. I think that's critical. And I do think that helps him get
09:14away sometimes with some of the stuff that he does. Richie McCaw, I think was great at
09:19that, at being so respected that you would look at how much you got away with on the
09:22pitch and it's just that extra 5%. So I think those two for me are nailed on. And I do think
09:27you're right that there is, that there aren't a lot of obvious people putting their hands
09:31up behind that. And it will be interesting to see what happens in terms of, we're going
09:35to get onto the back row in a minute, but how, how many of those are out and out locks
09:39or how many of those kind of combination hybrid players that can play, you know, sort of those
09:43kind of five and a half players that might make back or second row.
09:46So, so this is, this will be an interesting bit to bring this segment to an end. So we're
09:50agreed we've got Byron and Otogi starting at locks. We need a replacement lock and we need,
09:55I imagine one of the replacements, so just while we're at this, our bench is going to
09:59be a 6-2 split. Cause who knows in modern rugby what it's actually going to be in 6-2
10:05I think's the easiest sort of way to do it. So we're going to have a 6-2 split. And I
10:10imagine one of the forwards like Phil said will be that go between that can play lock
10:14or back row. But just in terms of like the replacement out and out lock, I really wasn't
10:20sure. I've got so many names down here and none of them are jumping out to me. Olly Chesson,
10:25I kind of put Will Rolands in as I felt a Welshman needed a mention at this stage. But
10:31I, I, again, I think he would probably be behind Chesson. No one at Scotland really
10:35jumped out for me here. Grant Gilchrist is a very reliable player, a very good lineup
10:42operator and honestly on his performances in the Six Nations might have just snuck a
10:46place in the mid week squad, but I don't think he's going to be anywhere near the test
10:51squad. And then that kind of just leaves an array of Irish players. Ian Henderson and
10:57James Ryan. Ryan Baird is one of the guys I'll mention later in sort of contention for
11:02that go between lock and back row forwards. I don't know. I really couldn't pick this
11:08one as my replacement. So if you guys have any suggestions, by all means.
11:13I mean, again, pretty Six Nations. Those Irish locks look really good. I think McCarthy's
11:19played well. Of course McCarthy. Yeah, I think he probably gets the nod for me. I think Ryan
11:25maybe just again, like a lot of those Irish boys just slipped back a little bit. But yeah,
11:30I think that McCarthy, despite his haircut, probably gets my vote. I had McCarthy, Chesson
11:35and Martin in that order. Yeah. Do you know what? I knew I was going to do this when I'm
11:40not the squad together that I was going to miss someone incredibly obvious. And I'm hoping
11:44this is the only time. But yeah, I think quite obviously Joe McCarthy is probably the replacement
11:48lock there then. Right. We're going to take a quick break now, but we'll be right back.
12:07Welcome back to National Worlds Kick and Chase podcast. We've got our front five or
12:11type five in locked in for the Lions with replacements. It's time to get onto the back
12:16row, which I imagine is going to take us quite a lot of time to sort out because there's
12:19so much to get through here. Yeah, let's just dive into it then. Let's go in with six. So
12:27in my order, I've got Tom Curry starting at six. Yeah, I can see the shock in Phil's face
12:35that I've dared to, that I'd be in a, and you're thinking being a Scotsman, picking
12:40Tom Curry to six as a, well, I'm not picking Peter Romani at six. I can tell you that much
12:46more better about him than I'm about any English. Yeah. Just to be clear, Omani hasn't ruled
12:54himself out of the lines, has he? Cause I know he's now retired from Ireland. He retired
12:58completely. I didn't think of that. I didn't think of that. Actually. That's a good show.
13:02I'm not sure. No. I'd imagine if he was called, he would, he would go and it would be a very
13:09fitting way to bring, bring to an end up and admittedly fantastic career for the monster
13:14man. Um, yeah. Tom Curry and Peter Romani. There are definitely a few more shirts there.
13:19I want to give a special mention. I'm not picking them as my bolt or we'll get that
13:24later, but I think Jamie Richie did more than enough to earn a place in the overall squad.
13:29I thought he was absolutely fantastic coming back in. It was one of Scotland's best players
13:34all tournament. He was excellent against Australia in the autumn. Do I think you'll get near
13:39the test squads maybe with injuries, but after his tournament, I'd be shocked if he's not
13:45in the overall squad, but yeah, I've got Tom Curry is my starting six for the lines. Yeah.
13:52I think, I think, I think Corey has to go, although again, um, we'll talk about the mix
13:57and who's on the plate as, as a true sale fan. Um, I actually think Ben Curry right
14:02now is playing better than Tom. Um, and throughout the six nations he has Tom, don't get me wrong,
14:08that body of work where he's been. Um, I still don't think he's quite back from, from having
14:13the operation on his hip, but even at that level, it's still phenomenal. But I think
14:17right now, this second Ben Curry is playing better than Tom Curry. And for me that they
14:21both go, whether they both get on the pitch at the same time, I don't know. But, um, but
14:25yeah, I think those Curry boys have been phenomenal on this in six nations. Um,
14:29Yeah. I was just going to say, this is probably a point worth mentioning. Um, most back row
14:38forwards that are flankers can play six or seven these days. So I have kind of tried
14:44to break it up into who I think is more obviously a six and who is more obviously a seven. So
14:49I do have Ben Curry down here. I just had them with my sevens rather than the sixes
14:53along with a few other players who feasibly could start, could also start at six.
14:58My notes are a bit messy here, but I do have Tom Curry, Ben Curry. I think sort of Richie
15:02would be the substitution for me for Tom Curry, but I think for seven, I think as a Welshman,
15:07I've got to make the case for Jack Morgan. I think, well, he started for me, Jack Morgan.
15:11I think he's been absolutely sensational on the PUA team. I know there's a lot of good
15:15sevens, you know, the Irish lads and you know, the English lads have taken a step forward,
15:19but for me, he's, he's in there.
15:21Jack Morgan for me has been the Sergio Parise of the Valleys. He's been a fantastic effort
15:30in a really poor team going backwards. He has stood up head and shoulders. I 100% think
15:35that he's definitely going to go, not sure whether he would start for me, but he's certainly
15:39pushing really hard. As we said, I mean, the other weird thing, we talked about six and
15:43sevens and hybrid players and, you know, going back to, you know, the six and a halves that
15:47England, they have one time, they've even got, you know, the likes of Earl now playing
15:51in the centre. So that back row has become really flexible, really versatile. Interesting
15:56to see how, whether Farrell does pick, you know, specific, those players or whether he
16:02just goes, here's some great players, let's chuck them on and see what we can do.
16:06And in terms of back row replacements as well, I've got Faletau Micken in there. I know he's
16:10not an out and out seven, but, and then I had Earl and Van de Vleer as well as my back
16:15row replacements alongside Richie, obviously we'll come to the third back row start now.
16:19Yeah. So this is, this is where it's going to get complicated. So, so, so what you're
16:23saying is James, you've got Curry at six and Morgan at seven. I mentioned Curry as my six,
16:29but I've actually got Jack Morgan as my six because I've looked at my three six options
16:34and decided to move, to move my second choice seven to six and have Van de Vleer at seven
16:42with Rory Darge as my second seven, closely followed by Ben Curry. But I do agree with,
16:49when I was looking at this, I do agree with Phil, I think out of the Curry brothers, Ben
16:52has impressed slightly more. And then like, you've also got Peter O'Mahony and Jamie Richie
16:58who we've talked about. So, so this is why it's so complicated. But my combination is
17:03Jack Morgan at six and Van de Vleer at seven.
17:06Darge is a great shout. He's like my McCarthy for you. I hadn't actually considered him.
17:09He wasn't on my list, but that is a hell of a shout for a replacement, actually. I've
17:13got Doris as my third back row.
17:15Yeah. I've got Caelan Doris as my eight as well. Can we lock that in Phil or?
17:20Well, I'm going to throw a massive curve ball here and it's not what you're going to think.
17:26Do you say Alex Dornbrandt, we're quitting the podcast right now.
17:29No, no, no. I'm not that insane. Again, I think Doris, pre the Six Nations was everyone's
17:36kind of tip to be Lions captain. I think he has dropped a little bit down that pecking
17:42order. And I think we'll talk to captains, but I think Mario might have pipped him. I
17:46think he has looked a little bit. If I was picking somebody on form right now, and it
17:50will be interesting to see how things go. Can't pick him for England, but I think Jack
17:54Willis at eight is a really interesting choice. If he's playing that Toulouse team, a bit
17:59like what happened to Blair Kinghorn, you get a really good player, you stick him in
18:03that Toulouse team and he becomes absolutely world-class. And I think Willis is that player
18:08and bear in mind that Farrell isn't banned by any RFU rules, but you can't pick players
18:12that play in France. It's really hard to say that if we send that Toulouse team probably
18:16is the best club team at the moment, or certainly one of the best club teams in the world, he's
18:22getting that eight shirt, he's making it own. So he would be my pick at number eight.
18:26It's a good shot.
18:29Got a lot of sorting out to do here. I do think Jack Willis will be in the squad. Right,
18:36so we need to agree on a six first of all, guys. So who did you, did you have Ben Curry
18:41as your six, Phil? Did I mishear that?
18:44Yes, but I'm happy to pick either Ben or Tom, as long as one of them gets in there.
18:48You've got Ben or Tom, James has got Tom and I've got Jack Morgan. We need to pick our
18:55six and our seven simultaneously here, I think, for it to work.
19:00If Doris is in, we know that. If Doris is in, that's two to one.
19:03Yeah, because you and I have both picked Doris and I think Jack Willis might...
19:07He might go, yeah.
19:09Well, no, he won't go, but could he be our... I think he'll be our replacement out-and-out
19:15back rower, potentially, Jack Willis. That might be fair since you've picked him as a
19:20starter, because I think he can play flanker and eight, whereas your Rory Darge can't really
19:28play eight. Faletau I have got in my squad, I just, again, I see him as an eight, I don't
19:35see him as a flanker.
19:36Yeah, definitely.
19:37I put Jack Dempsey on to go in the touring squad as a laugh, because it'll be funny watching
19:43the provincial Aussie sides wanting to sort of batter him off the pitch as hard as they can.
19:51Yeah, but so if we lock in as our replacements, first of all, Willis as our sort of out-and-out
20:00back row replacement, that might change. And then we need someone who can go between lock
20:09and back row. So who would that be? Ryan Baird? Realistically, there aren't too many
20:16guys left that can do that. Maybe Ryan Baird? Well, again, we'll lock that in and that'll
20:22change.
20:23Throw him in.
20:24Yeah, as our replacement. So, right, we've got Doris at eight. So we need our six and
20:32our seven. So everyone has picked, I think, one of the Curry brothers. So they're going
20:38to be somewhere in this mix. So let's decide. What do you think, Ben? Ben Curry at six,
20:46and then that gives us a straight decision between Jack Morgan and Josh Vander Fleer
20:51for seven. Yeah?
20:54Yeah, I had Tom Curry, but I'm happy with Ben.
20:57Okay, right.
20:59But Jack Morgan's my seven. I'm throwing that well and truly into the mix.
21:04If you want me to play, to decide then, I go for Morgan over Vander Fleer, I think.
21:10Okay, yeah, let's get Jack Morgan in then. So in that case, should we have Morgan at
21:15six and Ben Curry at seven? Or what way should we do that?
21:18Yeah, easy.
21:19Yeah, they're interchangeable. My favourite comment from the last game of the season was
21:25that Curry was so good, it looked like there were two of them on the pitch.
21:31It's strange, isn't it? Just going off pace a little bit, that he hasn't played as much.
21:35Yeah, in my mind, Ben Curry's an out-and-out seven. So I think Ben Curry at seven and then
21:41Jack Morgan at six. Right, so we've got Jack Morgan six, Ben Curry seven, Caelan Dorris
21:50eight, Ryan Baird is 19 and Jack Willis is 20.
21:58Yeah, cool.
21:59Right. We're approaching our second break, but I'm hoping we've got enough time to get
22:06our scrum half in before we do that.
22:10Fairly similar for me.
22:11So I've got Jameson Gibson Park with Ben White as a replacement.
22:15Yeah, I think, again, you can argue on Six Nations for me, you might want to flip those
22:19because I think Gibson Park didn't have his greatest performance. I think White, particularly
22:23the speed that he gets that ball away from the rook is really impressive. So I'd quite
22:28happily flip those.
22:31I will too, if James can agree on that. I love Ben White.
22:35I had Gibson Park starting, but you're more than welcome to put White in there. That's
22:40not a bone of contention for me. I do shout out to Thomas Williams as well, love.
22:45Yeah, I had Thomas Williams. Thomas Williams is my third choice nine, just ahead of Alex
22:54Mitchell.
22:55Who would be unlucky, I think Alex Mitchell, actually, because he's been...
22:59One of them's going to be unlucky to miss out. But yeah, I feel like we're judging it
23:03on the Six Nations, but if we want to go the entire four-year period, that's where
23:09Gibson Park comes ahead. And the great thing is we've got the rest of the club season
23:13to sort this out. But I suppose since we're technically picking this on the back of the
23:18Six Nations, maybe we should go Ben White starting nine with Gibson Park as the replacement
23:25nine. Yeah?
23:27Yeah, that's fine. You let me have Morgan so you can have White.
23:31I'm really happy about that. I love Ben White.
23:34Now here we go.
23:35Yeah, we'll take another break now. When we come back, we'll be going 10 through 15,
23:39the final replacement. We'll also be picking our skipper and our bowler.
24:06Welcome back at this opportune time for what is going to be potentially the most contentious
24:12debate of the podcast. Well, hopefully not.
24:16Number 10.
24:18Finn.
24:21Please don't make me go over this again.
24:26I've got Finn Russell as my 10 and then I've got Marcus Smith as my final test replacement.
24:33Again, and this has been the whole debate throughout. Are you picking it on recency
24:37bias, on form, on the play of the Six Nations? Are you playing it on their kind of career
24:42to this date? I actually think that in terms of the best 10 from the Six Nations, I think
24:47Finn Smith really took a step forward. I think he completely put some pattern on it that
24:52England were missing and that didn't seem to quite click when Marcus Smith was there.
24:57I think by his own very high standards, Finn Russell would say perhaps didn't have his
25:01greatest Six Nations this time around. And that's nothing to do with a miss kick against
25:04England at all. I'm just thinking about, again, he's a bit like Maro. His base level is so
25:10high that he's just so good all the time. But I do think he dropped off a little bit.
25:14So if we're basing it on just the Six Nations performance, I would say that Finn Smith gets
25:19it. I think it is going to be Finn Russell just because of the player that he is. He's
25:24got that body of work. He's got far more experience at that level than Finn Smith has.
25:30It will be interesting to see. We've talked about what's going to happen between now and
25:33the rest of the Lions tour. I think, unfortunately for the Wales boys, they're not going to feature
25:37in many big games in either the Champions Cup or probably in the URC. Whereas Bath have
25:43potentially the chance to go on and win the Premiership, which would do Finn Russell a
25:46great service in terms of keeping his level up high. If Finn Smith takes Northampton in
25:52a run in the Champions Cup, that might elevate him as well. But for me, it's those two. I
25:57think, again, Marcus Smith has been left a little bit out in the wilderness because
26:01of how things have changed and where he's been played. But for me, I'd go with the two
26:04Finns.
26:06Yeah, I have to say there's a lot to agree with there. I think Finn Smith is the midweek
26:1210, hands down, no question. Again, because I think Marcus Smith will very much be an
26:17important part of the test squad, but rather as the replacement. We'll get to fullback
26:23later, the replacement to cover 10 and fullback. So I think Finn Smith will be the midweek
26:2810. Finn Smith had an excellent Six Nations and he absolutely deserves a spot on that
26:36plane. And if he ends up in that test squad, if Finn Russell gets injured, then there are
26:42no great issues there. I just think, even like you mentioned his high standards, even
26:48though it wasn't his best Six Nations, he was still, for my mind, I was going to say
26:54the best 10 in the Six Nations, but that might be doing Roman and Tamak a bit of a disservice.
26:59Probably quite harsh on Garbisi as well, actually. But yeah, no, I think certainly out of the
27:07four British nations, Finn Russell was still the best 10 of the tournament. So we are going
27:12to have to disagree on that one, Phil. So I think this is going to come down to James.
27:17There was the place-kicking issue against England, but I think we just write that off
27:21really as a sort of one in a million kind of thing. His kicking from hand wasn't terrific
27:28this Six Nations. There wasn't a lot of looking and thinking, because you do see one or two
27:35from Finn Russell every Six Nations where you're just like, my word, what an incredible
27:39kick. And we didn't get one of those this year. But still, for me, I can't look past
27:44him. So I think, James, you need to have the deciding vote here.
27:48Yeah. So again, I have a very large squad, but I did go with Finn Russell as my fly half
27:53despite criticising him pretty heavily over the years on this podcast. I do think he needs
27:57to be handed the keys. I've heard people sort of disagree with this categorisation of him
28:03as a maverick. I still think he can be in terms of his performance levels fluctuate.
28:07I don't actually necessarily think that's a bad thing in a sporting context. But because
28:10he is such a maverick, I'm taking George Ford potentially as his second. I think
28:16Marcus Smith, for me, goes in the wider squad to cover 15. And I would take Finn Smith
28:21as well. You're probably going to get injuries and whatnot. But that was how my group
28:25sort of looked. Marcus Smith is in there as a fly half, but he's going primarily really
28:31as a fullback, isn't he? And I also think he's just such a good, versatile rugby player
28:38that you want him in there somewhere. But I had that Finn Russell, George Ford thing
28:43sort of nailed on in my head despite him not playing too much George Ford. But then Finn
28:47Smith, you can't leave him out really because he's done so well. But it's just that experience
28:52sort of test level, sort of animal categorisation that sort of worries me a little bit. I know
28:57George Ford hasn't been on a Lions tour, but he's just got that wealth of experience.
29:01So interestingly, none of us have mentioned the other Farrell. I don't think he goes
29:05despite being able to cover seven. That doesn't happen for me. I would be surprised if it
29:10does happen. I don't think it should happen.
29:12I think if he was ripping it up in the top 14 and Rassing were racing ahead for the title,
29:18I think that's an easier conversation to be had. But obviously, you can't just blame the
29:2210. But obviously, Rassing are not having a great season. He doesn't seem to be setting
29:27the world alight. Yeah, I mean, who knows? It's going to have a lot of conversations
29:33to be had around with Mrs. Farrell about whether our Neppo baby 10 goes or not. I just think
29:38at the moment, he's not really in the conversation. And yeah, completely agree with you. George
29:42Ford, he's hardly played at all in the Six Nations, but he just reminds you that that
29:46flat pass, that tunnel ball that you threw across for Pollock's try, just remind you
29:52what a great ball player he is. So yeah, I mean, great shout.
29:56An honourable mention for Sam Pendergast, who didn't really do anything wrong this Six
30:02Nations, but also didn't really set the heaven alight. Big shoes to fill replacing Johnny
30:08Sexton, quite obviously. Had Ireland won the Six Nations, certainly had they done the Grand
30:13Slam, I think we'd be speaking more about Pendergast. But I don't think anyone I get
30:19potentially could make it into the overall squad. But yeah, for me, I think Finn Russell's
30:26your start in 10, Freddie Stewart's your mid-week 10. And were we able to agree that
30:32Marcus... Freddie Stewart, sorry.
30:35Have I said that more than once?
30:43Finn Smith, apologies, is our mid-week 10. And Marcus Smith, did we all agree, would
30:50be our sort of number 22 on the bench.
30:5422, 23?
30:57Possibly, he's not actually on my bench at full-back, but he's in the squad going as
31:01full-back.
31:03We'll come back to that one then. We'll come back to that one last.
31:06Yeah.
31:08Right, wingers, number 11. So I suppose, again, because the wingers are kind of
31:14interchangeable, we need to do 11 and 14 together. So I've got Duan van der Merwe at
31:2011 and James Lowe at 14. Sort of my backups at 11, my backup at 11 was Matt Hanson and
31:29my backup at 14 was Darcy Graham. So a four, England-Scotland. I have got, don't worry,
31:35I've got Freeman and Sleightholme on this list.
31:39For me, Freeman has to start. You know, you look at, I mean, he topped the try score and
31:45he scored in all five matches. He scored five tries in the Six Nations. Duan scored
31:50two. Henry Pollock scored two tries in one game. You know, what kind of winger is that?
31:55I know I'm being slightly facetious there, but I think it is hard. I think it's interesting
32:01to see how they compare. Freeman is quite a big lad. He is sort of in that Duan mould,
32:07whereas I think James Lowe just offers a little bit more perhaps in the air than some of the
32:14others. Darcy Graham had a great Six Nations as well. I think whomever of those four doesn't
32:19get to start is going to be really unlucky, but there are four great players there. And
32:23I think for me, you know, they should be there or thereabouts. You can pick them in combinations.
32:27You can say, well, we're going for an aerial attack. We want Duan and Freeman together
32:31because then they can stick the ball up. I think 15 is much, much, much less of a contentious
32:36issue anyway. And also we've got a good player in the air there. So whether you want to look
32:41for something slightly different, and Darcy Graham probably is that point of difference
32:45with his kind of speed and offering something that's not quite such a kind of a six-foot-four
32:49aerial player, as well as being a strong ball carrier. But for me, I think my starters were
32:55Lowe and Freeman in terms of how they performed in the Six Nations. And again, yeah, just
33:02coming off the back of that performance.
33:04Before you jump in, James, have you got James Lowe as well?
33:08Yes.
33:09Right. OK, so we can lock in James Lowe at 14. That's good. So yeah, on you go then,
33:15James. I'll let you kind of 11 here.
33:18Phil makes a really, really, really compelling point for Freeman. He's had a really, really
33:22good Six Nations. But for me, I did have Duan Vandermeer in ahead of him just for the body
33:27of work. And he's also been a tourist before. In terms of replacements, I found this really
33:32hard. Obviously, Freeman is the first replacement. And then I really struggled between
33:38Slydeholm and Graham, but Graham just got the nod for me, again, on the body of work.
33:44But I think Slydeholm is a fantastic prospect. It reminds me a bit of Johnny Russell.
33:51Not a lot of love for Matt Hanson here. Obviously, missed a good bit of the Six Nations
33:55with injury, right? But again, we're picking this on the back of the Six Nations, but his
34:00body of work over the past four years. But I can see, like, I immediately corrected myself,
34:06Phil, after you mentioned just how good Tommy Freeman was, and I've put him now ahead of
34:10Matt Hanson. But I just think in the case for Vandermeer, that is, you know, like you
34:16say, like, Freeman's a try scoring machine, but having a player of that just size and
34:22bulk, and again, not too dissimilar to Tige Furlong that I mentioned earlier, just a man
34:28who can move about with scary agility for someone of that size. It just, the physical
34:36specimen that he is, is what kind of gives him the nod for me, because we know he can
34:42score tries for fun. He didn't do it this Six Nations, but we know he can, and I feel
34:50like that's why I've got him in ahead. So I think we're, unluckily for Tommy Freeman,
34:56he's probably the player most unlucky to miss out on this starting 15, and being a
35:02winger, an out-and-out winger, means he's not going to earn a place on the replacements.
35:08So that is, unfortunately for Tommy Freeman, going to be Doohan at 11. 12 and 13 is an
35:16interesting one. It's the only team in Palau who misses the entire Six Nations. But similarly
35:22with what I said about Tige Furlong at three, I don't feel like anyone... I've got Olly
35:28Lawrence as a 13 in this squad. I don't think anyone necessarily put their hand up for me
35:34and said, I deserve to be the starting 12 more than Sioni Tuipulotu at the moment.
35:42I think my sentence, I thought Hugh Jones, obviously, was really good. I think if we're
35:48saying thanks to the Six Nations when Tuipulotu wasn't there, I think the only thing that
35:52puts his hand up is that goal carry again.
36:0612 and 13 is an interesting one. It's the only team in Palau who misses the entire Six
36:12Nations. But similarly with what I said about Tige Furlong at three, I don't feel like anyone...
36:18I've got Olly Lawrence as a 13 in this squad. I don't think anyone necessarily put their
36:24hand up for me and said, I deserve to be the starting 12 more than Sioni Tuipulotu at the
36:30moment.
36:32I think my sentence, I thought Hugh Jones, obviously, was really good. I think if we're
36:38saying thanks to the Six Nations when Tuipulotu wasn't there, I think the only thing that
36:42puts his hand up is that goal carry again. I'm going to assume, unfortunately, Lawrence
36:46isn't going to go because, obviously, his injury is going to rule him out. I picked
36:52as my sentence, again, just based on the Six Nations, as being Hugh Jones and Bundy.
36:58I've got Hugh Jones at 13 as well. Actually, I totally forgot about Olly Lawrence's injury,
37:02but as soon as you said that, I remember. That's gutting for him because he would have
37:06been in contention for a starting test place.
37:08Well, I've just called Mayor Johnny Russell earlier, so we're full of the mistakes today.
37:14Former Scotland international footballer, Johnny Russell.
37:18What's he doing there? He's done well to get on the plane.
37:22Do you have Hugh Jones at 13 as well, by any chance, James?
37:26Yes, I do.
37:28That's good. He's locked in. 12, Bundy or Sioni, unless you've got another shout.
37:34No, I don't. This is something I really, really, really struggled with because I think Bundy
37:39is absolutely superb. I love watching him play rugby, but I just think Tuipulotu just
37:43offers something completely different, so he starts for me.
37:47Yeah, Sioni. Okay, then. And 15. Well, we've not got a whole lot of time left, but again,
37:54I think 15 is quite straightforward. Have we all got Blair Kinghorn yet?
37:57Yeah.
37:58Blair Kinghorn leading so many stats, breaking records during the Six Nations.
38:02No one, I think one player, took more advantage of the Six Nations to put their hand up.
38:09I think the next closest players are obviously Freddie Stewart and Hugo Keenan,
38:14but I don't think any of them laid a hand on Blair Kinghorn's claim for starting 15.
38:20So we need a final replacement on the bench. Now, this is where it gets interesting.
38:26There's nothing to say that we have to go with a 6-2 split.
38:29So we could theoretically drop Ryan Baird and take an extra back if we wanted to.
38:34How would we feel about that?
38:37For me, Marcus Smith, I think, for me, he's on the bench because of that versatility complaint.
38:43So that makes sense. And for me personally, I think he's probably played slightly better than Stewart anyway.
38:50But the only issue might come in for 15 is if things change with injuries.
38:55But yeah, I think he offers a lot of flexibility.
38:58And Furbank, were he fit and had he played in Six Nations, I think might have forced his way in.
39:03But again, just based on Six Nations, that's the way I'm looking at it.
39:08Yeah, I have Kinghorn Smith as well. I think just on Marcus Smith as well.
39:13He's proven off the bench that he can inject something into a game as well.
39:17The speed of ball in hand, his creativity, his kicking is decent.
39:20When it's on the song for him, whether he's playing at 10 or 15, he is a very, very good player.
39:27I think we've got a team, lads. So let's go through this.
39:31Lions 23 for that first test match against Australia, barring any injuries.
39:35We have got Andrew Porter, Dan Sheehan, Tyke Furlong, Tyke Byrne, Mauro Itoji, Jack Morgan, Ben Curry, Caelan Dorris,
39:44Ben White, Finn Russell, Duan Vandermarve, the entire Scotland back line bar one, I'm realising.
39:50Ben White, Finn Russell, Duan Vandermarve, Sioni Tuipulotu, Hugh Jones, James Lowe and Blair Kinghorn.
39:57Our replacements, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Xander Fagerson.
40:02We have got Joe McCarthy, Ryan Baird, Jack Willis.
40:07And that leaves us with Jameson Gibson-Park and Marcus Smith.
40:12I think it's interesting there by sort of picking individual players for individual positions.
40:17We've actually ended up with a couple of good combinations as well in there,
40:20obviously the halfback combination.
40:22I think that would probably, thinking about it holistically,
40:25probably be the sensible thing to do, wouldn't it, would be Ben White and Finn Russell.
40:28So that just leaves us with probably, again, one of the more contentious decisions.
40:33We're going to have to pick a captain.
40:34And then just for a bit of fun, I've asked everyone to pick a bolter.
40:38Phil, I think you've already kind of come in with this.
40:40You've made your case for Mauro Itoji.
40:44I don't have a lot of strong feelings here.
40:47So if you have something different, James, I might play decider on this one.
40:54I don't. I have Mauro Itoji. I think he deserves...
40:57Well, that's quite easy then.
40:59I think he deserves the captain of the Lions.
41:01I think it's just his general intelligence.
41:04It's difficult now, now the decision's been made for him to be captain.
41:07Why wasn't it done so long ago?
41:09I know there's been other candidates, Owen Fowle and Jamie George, and he's had to earn it.
41:13But he just looks a natural leader, his communication skills, his general intelligence.
41:17I think in terms of his understanding of just culture generally could be really useful in the tournament,
41:21bringing those nations together.
41:22I think he's just a very well-spoken man and also probably the best in his position in the world.
41:28And I think that's the key thing because we have talked again, pre-Six Nations,
41:32I think Caelan Dorris would have been top of lots of people's lists, not least because obviously
41:37Andy Farrell's going to want to pick from that Irish team that he knows really well.
41:42I suppose going back a little bit further, Farrell does have that relationship with Itoji
41:46from back when they were both at Saracens.
41:48The key things for me about Itoji are, one, his level of performance hardly ever drops off.
41:52He's just so consistently good across the pitch.
41:54And as we've said, the way he talks to the referees, the standing, the way the players look at him.
41:58But perhaps most importantly, we look at that back row where the bump fight that we had
42:03trying to get all those players in, Itoji is guaranteed to start.
42:06And quite a lot of those back row players who might be potential captains are not guaranteed to start.
42:10I mean, Dorris might not even necessarily get into the starting 23.
42:13So I think that for me is why Itoji is there.
42:17And I'd be really surprised if he wasn't.
42:21Yeah, I think on the evidence of the Six Nations, it's probably impossible
42:25to disagree with Itoji as the Lions captain.
42:27Like you say, Caelan Dorris was probably the other main contender.
42:31Had Sione Tuipulotu been fit and played in captain Scotland in the Six Nations,
42:36he would have been in contention.
42:38But given that he's only really had one Autumn Nations series as a captain,
42:43I don't think he necessarily has that level of experience quite yet that the other two do.
42:51I know I previously made a case for Finn Russell.
42:54Your captain needs to be a forward, kind of, I think,
42:57which another thing that would have worked against Tuipulotu.
43:00I know that's old school thinking, but I do just prefer it that way.
43:04I think with Finn Russell as well, just let him go and be that 10.
43:09Don't put that extra pressure on him.
43:11Just let him go. Give him the keys.
43:13Let him play in front of a really dominant, hopefully, forward pack
43:16and just let him play.
43:19Rory Darge isn't guaranteed to be a starter or even in the 23,
43:23so I feel like that precludes him.
43:25Similarly, I think you probably say the same about Jack Morgan,
43:29although we do think he will be a starter.
43:31Also, he's just a little bit greener than the rest of the options.
43:35Maybe a Lions captain in the future, but probably not this tour.
43:40That does leave a few sort of out there options.
43:44Peter O'Mahony, if he plays, would be a contender,
43:48but I think we're all pretty much in agreement.
43:52It's going to be Mauro Itoji.
43:54I don't think it would be, but Porter at Loosehead is pretty much guaranteed
43:57to start, isn't he? And he's pretty experienced.
43:59Dan Sheehan is guaranteed to start too.
44:03If he went down the island, then those would be the guys, wouldn't they?
44:10In terms of the guaranteed to start players, yeah.
44:13Anyway, a bit more fun now.
44:15We each get to make a case for a bolter.
44:18I'll start on this one.
44:19I was hoping we'd all pick from our respective nations.
44:23I kind of wanted to push for this guy to be in the Test 23,
44:27although I don't think he will be.
44:29Possibly taking Marcus Smith's replacement on the bench.
44:32Again, I don't think he will be.
44:35And we've also been very generous with our Scotland backs
44:37in the team we've picked, so I'm not going to fight too hard for it.
44:40I think maybe you all know where I'm going here.
44:43My Lions bolter is Tom Jordan.
44:46Just been since he came into the Scotland squad,
44:49he's been excellent.
44:50He's been terrific for Glasgow Warriors.
44:52He can play 10, 12, full back.
44:55Covers so many positions.
44:57Covers them well.
44:58Was forming quite a nice partnership with Finn Russell.
45:03That's not to say I could see him starting 12 for the Lions.
45:06I don't think that's going to happen, but just another thing.
45:09I would be shocked if Tom Jordan doesn't go in the overall squad
45:14and doesn't get some decent minutes midweek.
45:17He is the player I've picked as my sort of outsider
45:21for a spot in the Test Match squad.
45:25Anyone want to go next?
45:27Mine's Blair Murray.
45:28I thought he's had a really good Six Nations.
45:30He's been unlucky with some of the try decisions as well.
45:34I think he's really talented, but it would be very hard
45:38for him to unseat Blair Kinghorn.
45:40Obviously, could he be in the squad as a replacement?
45:43Potentially.
45:44Will he definitely go?
45:46I think that's up in the air, but as you said,
45:48there's a little bit of time.
45:49Can he do it at club level?
45:51He's still probably facing a couple of challenges there,
45:53but I just think he's a very, very good rugby player.
45:57My Bolter is a Bolter's Bolter,
46:00bearing in mind that this is somebody who's actually an existing Lion.
46:03But I think that the way that Elliot Daly has come into this team
46:07from out of nowhere, he's versatile.
46:10He's great pretty much across that back line.
46:12He's been a little bit like Dingwall was in the last game.
46:16He's been a little bit the glue that has made this English team attack.
46:21He's got a huge boot on him.
46:23Not that hopefully we'll ever need it to,
46:25but if you need to win the game by kicking a penalty from 65 metres,
46:29he's your boy.
46:30He will absolutely smash it out of the stadium from miles and miles away.
46:33He's my left field, left field.
46:38I'm glad that segment managed to pass the focus
46:41of having to discuss Owen Farrell, to be honest.
46:44Elliot Daly is quite a shout, to be fair.
46:46It's not unreasonable.
46:48And, yeah, again, I think we've all...
46:51Obviously, Tom Jordan can cover 12 as well as full-back,
46:55but we've all kind of picked full-back stroke, wing.
47:01Elliot Daly's played centre as well, hasn't he?
47:04Might be a shout.
47:07When you can cover that many positions.
47:09Yeah, we've all...
47:10I like that we've all picked backs who cover multiple positions here.
47:14So that is, yeah, a fun way to end the show.
47:17So, yeah, once again, thank you very much, Phil.
47:19Thank you, James.
47:20That's been a really fun Six Nations season.
47:24We will hopefully be back for the Lions Tour,
47:26but if not, we'll see everyone in the autumn.
47:39.