On "Forbes Newsroom," Rep. John Larson (D-CT) issued an emphatic warning that President Trump, Elon Musk, and Republican lawmakers are seeking to privatize and "dismantle" Social Security, and how he thinks they plan to do it.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now
00:07is Congressman John Larson. Congressman, thank you so much for joining me again.
00:11Glad to be with you, Brittany.
00:14You have long been one of the most vocal members of Congress when it comes to Social Security.
00:18In fact, you and I had a 30 minute discussion on it just last year. This week, you were
00:23pretty passionate during a House Ways and Means Committee hearing on the subject. You
00:27introduced a resolution of inquiry into what you called the, quote, hostile takeover of
00:32Social Security by President Trump and Elon Musk. And you accused Elon Musk of, quote,
00:37taking a wrecking ball to the Social Security administration.
00:40So to start off the conversation, can you talk to us about your concerns?
00:45Absolutely. As you know, Brittany, there is more than 70 million Americans that are on
00:51Social Security. And for the most part, people have a tendency to think that Social Security
00:57is just pensions. But it's not. It's not only pensions. It also takes care of spouses, dependents,
01:06widows, and also disability. In fact, provides more disability coverage for veterans than
01:13the VA. So it is the genius of Franklin Delano Roosevelt that came up with a safety net for
01:21entrepreneurialism and capitalism to protect citizens by allowing them to invest. This is not,
01:31as Mr. Musk calls it, an entitlement. This is a benefit that people have paid for. And all one has
01:39to do is look on their pay stub to find that out. And on that pay stub, it says FICA. That stands
01:47for Federal Insurance Contribution. Who's? Yours. And so it is not an entitlement. This is an
01:58insurance plan that has been paid for and entrusted with the government. So it can give you a return
02:07in your retirement, or if needed before then, in the case of death for a spousal or dependent
02:17coverage or disability, all of which has made it the number one insurance plan for the program. And
02:27by that I mean this, it's the number one anti-poverty program for the elderly of this nation,
02:33and the number one anti-poverty program for children of this country. And so to go in there with a
02:44wrecking ball, with the idea that they are going to dismiss and close regional offices and fire
02:53people, including inspector generals, is just absurd. And even more absurd is if you're doing that, you
03:03have a responsibility to come before Congress and explain what you're up to, why you need access to
03:13these private documents, and what is your goal, and what is your intent here. And of course, as you
03:21know, Mr. Musk now has been on TV several times, just last weekend, calling Social Security a Ponzi
03:30scheme, and the president calling it a scam. And the Republicans in the committee keep on saying, Oh,
03:35no, President Trump isn't going to touch Social Security. They're not going to be doing anything
03:41In the middle of the hearing yesterday, the Doge came out saying they're going to stop,
03:50and they're going to try to eliminate the use of phoning into agencies. They're out to dismantle
04:01the Social Security administration. And there's a responsibility here, first and foremost, on the
04:06Republicans in Congress, to call a hearing on this as we have requested and asked for,
04:13and to bring them before the Congress in a public hearing under oath and answer that
04:24what they need this information for, and what their goals are here. And if as our colleagues
04:30claim, they're not there to privatize it, well, then let's put them under oath and have them
04:36swear to it. Because that's not what they've said on TV. I know older people. I mean, personally,
04:42my grandfather didn't have the internet. He didn't have a smartphone. So he would just have to use
04:47the phone. And I know he wasn't in the only he's not the only senior citizen in that boat where
04:51there would be older people who rely on the phone. So that's one issue. Another issue is you're
04:56asking where's Elon Musk, there was a viral moment of you in this house Ways and Means Committee
05:01asking where's Elon Musk? You said he's going to privatize Social Security. He's calling it
05:06an entitlement in our conversation last year on the House floor. Many times you have said
05:11Social Security is not an entitlement. It's an earned benefit. So talk to us about why you were
05:17just so passionate in that hearing. Well, because first and foremost, 70 million Americans rely on
05:25Social Security. Now of those 70 million 40% of those Social Security is the only thing they have.
05:38Who do they have speaking for them in the United States Congress? Who will speak out on their
05:46behalf? As this administration seeks to go out and disassemble the Social Security Administration
05:56and doing so weaken it, prevent people from having access and getting timely service,
06:03and then arrive at the conclusion that well, Social Security isn't working. So we're going to
06:10have to privatize it. So they're saying that's not our intent. Well, they're saying, well,
06:17that's fine. If that's not your intent, you have no problem then coming before the committee and
06:22answering questions under oath. And what riled me the most, of course, were the empty
06:28seats that were there. That somehow Elon Musk, because he's a billionaire, is above the law
06:35and doesn't have to answer to the United States Congress or the American people. That's flat out
06:43wrong. And I think every American citizen knows it as well. And there's no special protection
06:50that the president can provide him from actually coming before Congress
06:57and telling the truth about his intent. During that hearing, you accused Republicans to their
07:04faces of doing whatever Elon Musk and President Trump want them to do. I'm curious, in your
07:10private conversations, do they share your concerns about Social Security, about Elon Musk, about
07:16Doge? Because in my conversations with Republican lawmakers, when I say, hey, is Social Security on
07:22the chopping block? You keep publicly saying no, but is it? They're saying things like let Elon
07:27Musk look into the look into it and see what happens. But I'm not. Social Security will be
07:33saved. There's just a lot of fraud there. They've been told not to say anything.
07:41And so they're claiming that, well, you know, what's wrong about looking for fraud,
07:49abuse and waste? There's nothing wrong with that. No Democrat has said there is. In fact,
07:55if there is fraud, abuse or waste, we'll join with them in finding it and routing it out because
08:01there's no place for it in government. But that's not the issue here. They're claiming that that's
08:08what their goal is. And our response is, if that's your goal, don't you think the American public
08:15and certainly the fourth estate in the media would be interested in it as well? And so why is there
08:21this great secret? Well, could it be because you're not telling the truth? As Rich Neal said yesterday,
08:27can we at least agree that no one 350 years old is receiving a Social Security check?
08:35And it was ironic, but meant to be so because of the absurdity and how much pushback they've
08:42gotten on their misinformation. And then Elon Musk was on TV saying, oh, yeah, Social Security
08:50is the plan in which Democrats use to entice illegal immigrants into the country with the
09:00promise that they're going to give them Social Security. Again, a bold face lie that if he
09:08believes that and has proof, well, by all means, let's put him under oath and have that. And let's
09:15see the facts that he has to substantiate it, because so far they've made an awful lot of
09:22outlandish claims that are not backed by facts. And that's substantiated by the Wall Street Journal,
09:30the New York Times, many media outlets, and even the acting commissioner that was hand appointed
09:39by Donald Trump has said, this is not true. And Doge does not understand what it's doing to the
09:48operation. I think they do understand. Their goal isn't fraud or abuse or waste. Their goal is to
09:55dismantle it and privatize it and say it doesn't work and say it's ineffective. Tell the big lie.
10:04And then say to the American people, that's why we need to privatize it.
10:09Congressman, last year you showed me some cards you give out to every member of Congress in the
10:13House and in the Senate, Republicans and Democrats alike. I think you showed me
10:17House Speaker Mike Johnson's card last year. And on the card, it says how many of their
10:22constituents in their district rely on Social Security. Do you still do that when you're giving
10:28them to Republicans now? I mean, what are they saying? What are those conversations like?
10:33They're very appreciative of the card, and I think many of them are astounded. But when I go
10:37to the floor, every time I go to the floor to talk on what's called a five minute, I also was
10:42ever in the chair speaking. And it's always a Republican because they control the House.
10:48I recite for them exactly what's in their district and how many people. And on average,
10:54on average, Brittany, it's about 145,000 people per congressional district on average, and also
11:03about 200 million that comes into that district monthly. I also remind them that
11:13this is why this is such a valuable program. And especially in this inflationary time,
11:21and with this vast disparity gap between the have and the have nots, that a plan that provides
11:31citizens with a monthly income needs to be there. And we need to know that they're receiving this
11:40amount of money and what it would mean if they don't get it. It is, after all, as I like to
11:47remind our Republican colleagues, the safety net for capitalism and entrepreneurialism.
11:56The genius of Roosevelt was knowing that in a system like that, which we
12:01love and respect and admire because we want people to take risks. We want people to be creative.
12:08We want people to be inventive. But if for some reason, whatever, climate change,
12:14whatever happens, inflation, a pandemic, whatever happens, through no fault of theirs,
12:21people that are laid off or out of work, they still need to put a roof over their head
12:29and feed their families, pay the rent, go to the pharmacy. And as we said earlier, for 40%
12:42of that 70 million, the only benefit they have is social security. And so that's why it's so
12:51important. And who speaks for them if not their elected representatives? Elon Musk doesn't speak
12:59for them. He and Donald Trump don't lose a moment of sleep worrying about putting a roof over their
13:10heads, putting the meal on the table or caring for those people. They're billionaires. God bless
13:18them. They're successful. God bless them. But our mission under the Constitution is we the people,
13:29and it's the people that were sent to Washington to represent and protect. And the brilliance of
13:36Roosevelt in our system is that we know that social security works. It's the most popular
13:44insurance program in the nation, the number one anti-poverty program for the elderly,
13:51and the number one anti-poverty program for children.
13:55You mentioned earlier some comments that Elon Musk made recently on social security.
14:00He made them during an interview with Larry Kudlow on Fox Business. I want to read some
14:04other comments he made in that interview. He said entitlement spending is the big one to eliminate.
14:10As we know, entitlements include social security. They include Medicare and Medicaid.
14:15And he said the government spends anywhere from 500 to 700 billion dollars on them.
14:21President Trump himself, Republicans themselves all said that they're not going to cut
14:26social security, Medicare, Medicaid. They're not touching that. Instead,
14:29they're going to look for the waste, the fraud, the abuse in there. But realistically,
14:34is there 500 to 700 billion dollars of waste, fraud and abuse in social security?
14:41Well, this is such a conundrum, and I'm glad you asked the question because it's confounding.
14:48Number one, as you point out, if you look at the federal budget and you were to take
14:56three specific areas, those being national defense, those being Medicare and Medicaid,
15:04and social security, that's over 70 percent of the federal budget in three programs.
15:14So Musk has said he's not wrong about saying, where is the money being spent with regard to
15:22the federal budget? Yes, indeed, it's defense, Medicare, Medicaid and social security.
15:30Now, how much has he been asked or directed to find by President Trump?
15:38Two trillion dollars, I believe, right? Now, is it coincidental that what was the tax cut
15:45of 2017, the Trump legacy? Hmm. Let's see. Oh, yeah, that was two trillion dollars.
15:54Oh, oh, yeah. And by the way, of those three major programs that we just named,
16:04does any one of them have a trust fund? Hmm. Yes. Social security. Oh, and by the way,
16:13how much money do you think is in the social security trust fund that has been put there
16:20by American citizens? Two point seven trillion dollars. So when Musk says he's going after
16:32the money and he's following the money, believe him, it's an old adage in politics,
16:41in government, if you want to find out what's going on, follow the money. And that's what
16:48the American people need to be tuned into and why he's out, as he said clearly, time and time again
16:59to privatize this. And in the same token, as you point out, Republicans have said,
17:05no, President Trump has said time and again, we're not going to touch social security.
17:11And yet the same weekend that Elon Musk called it a Ponzi scheme, he called it a scam
17:20and he's given him free a free hand. And they say, oh, yes, but he's only going after the fraud,
17:30abuse and waste. Well, I said, well, if that's the case.
17:35Why isn't he coming before our committee? Because we'll surely roll up our sleeves
17:40and help them find that because nobody wants to see fraud, abuse and waste in the military,
17:48in Medicare or Medicaid, social security or any governmental program. So you talk about a Ponzi
17:56scheme. That's the real Ponzi scheme, is that they're saying they're going to be,
18:04oh, no, we're not touching social security. We're not going after Medicare or Medicaid. But.
18:13In the same breath, they're saying, but we're going to follow the money
18:16and we're going to look there and this is where we're going to come up with
18:22the two trillion dollars the president has asked them to. They have got to be held accountable
18:30to the American people, to the United States Congress and to the media. And it's going to
18:37be individuals. And frankly. They've got the power, they control the Senate, the House and
18:43the presidency. They can block us. We will continue to use every single legislative tool
18:51in our box, including resolutions of inquiry to demand that they come before us. But so should
19:00every citizen in this country. People ask what they can do, demand that he come before Congress
19:08under oath and tell the American people.
19:14Where he's going to find that two trillion dollars, you're saying the writings on the
19:21wall here, there's not hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars worth of waste, fraud and
19:26abuse. This is all just a goal to privatize Social Security. When you say that, what does
19:32privatized Social Security even look like? Yes. Well, again, think about this.
19:43The trust fund. The genius of Roosevelt and the genius of coming up with a federal program
19:52that people pay in weekly, all you have to do is look at that pay stub
19:57and it says FICA right on it. It's not a tax. It's an insurance premium. It says federal
20:07insurance contribution. Whose? Yours and mine and every American citizens.
20:15I'll be it, except some of the very wealthy who pay nothing or circumvent the FICA rule
20:22or are done paying on January 2nd into a program that everybody else pays into
20:30throughout the year, which is why President Biden said we have to lift the cap on Social Security.
20:38Again, most citizens don't know that there's even a cap. Now that cap rises every year. It's
20:45currently $170,000. But President Biden said we'll lift it on people over 400,000. When I hold
20:55a town hall, one of the first things I do is say, raise your hand in the room if you're making over
21:01400,000. Funny thing about that, Brittany, I've never had anyone raise their hand. Well, except
21:09once in East Hartford, my hometown, and I looked at the person who I knew, I said, you're making
21:15over 400,000. They go, no, but it felt good to raise my hand. And so I had to give them credit
21:21for that. But the point being, just by having that group pay their fair share, we not only extend the
21:31solvency of Social Security, but we're able to add benefits. Here's the other thing that Americans
21:38should be screaming about. When was the last time Social Security benefits were enhanced?
21:47I actually know this from our conversation from last year, over 50 years ago.
21:52Exactly. Richard Nixon was President of the United States. And someone said, well, wait a minute,
21:59didn't Ronald Reagan and TIP and I said, yep, that happened, but they didn't enhance the benefit.
22:05They extended solvency. How did they do that? They did so back in 83 by raising the age from 65
22:15to 67. Here's the catch. For every year you raise the age, that's a 7% cut in benefits.
22:27So when you hear our colleagues on the other side saying they want to raise the age to 70,
22:35that's a 21% cut in your benefits. How does it make any sense if people are living longer,
22:45and they are, that they should be living on less? Shouldn't we be working to make sure
22:52that the Social Security program and the trust is not only solvent,
22:58but is also able to expand and provide benefits that people need? And Congress has that
23:05responsibility, but it hasn't done that in more than 50 years. People should be outraged.
23:13And I'll tell you who's getting outraged and what's causing people to call their offices
23:20and congressional offices are the 10,000 baby boomers a day who become eligible for Social
23:31Security and are saying, hey, wait a minute. What happened to my Social Security? And why,
23:38when am I getting these benefits? And they're now telling me that they could push this off to age 70
23:46or that the last time these were modified or enhanced was 1971.
23:56Some would say, well, no, but even didn't last December, didn't Congress
24:01include people that were excluded in 1983? Indeed, it did. And Congress passed a bill
24:11that eliminated what's commonly referred to as WEP and GPO, which prevented municipal employees,
24:18teachers, firefighters, and police officers, which amounted to about 2.9 million people in the
24:25country from getting Social Security benefits that they have paid into. That's the good news.
24:33The bad news is, though, it wasn't paid for. And so, President Trump has also said,
24:43I'm protecting Social Security. Not only am I protecting it, I'm going to give everyone
24:49on Social Security a tax cut. Well, that same tax cut provision, as we discussed
24:56last year, is in our proposal, but there's a big difference.
25:01We pay for it. And in doing so, make sure that the trust fund stays intact,
25:08and people still get the tax relief they richly deserve. Not to pay for it
25:17is a $998 billion hit to the trust fund. And where does that come from?
25:28Out of the very people who participate in Social Security, over 35 million, who it's
25:38the only thing that they have. Sadder still, in the wealthiest nation in the world,
25:475 million fellow Americans, most of whom are women, get below poverty level checks
25:57from the federal government, from an insurance plan that they entrusted
26:03to their government to take care of them. And they're getting below poverty level checks.
26:14Why? Because Congress has not acted. Now, if Congress doesn't want to pay them,
26:22don't you think it has an obligation to say, we're sorry, but we don't think it should be adjusted.
26:29We think that that's fair. There's no way that that would ever happen. But if people don't vote,
26:38or if Elon Musk can get his hands on $2,700,000,000 and then say, oh, well, we'll
26:53privatize this. Meaning, and they'll show you examples where they can return far greater money
27:02and will benefit more people. And that's what they'll tempt the American people with.
27:09But that's the Ponzi scheme. That's where the billionaires continue to get more money.
27:16And Social Security goes from being an absolute guarantee
27:23to being at risk. And you don't have to go back to 1929.
27:29You only have to go back to 2008, where people saw their 401k become a 101k. Now,
27:36are there things that we could do collectively as Democrats and Republicans and strengthen the
27:42trust fund and work? And I've talked with actuaries and financiers and people to strengthen
27:48the trust fund, but keep it in the Social Security trust, out of the greedy hands of
27:56the private sector. But a government program that's an absolute guarantee that can yield
28:04more than just Treasury notes? Absolutely. And that's the work we should be rolling up our
28:09sleeves and doing together to make this possible. And with reporting like yours and baby boomers
28:16taking to the phones and say, hey, what about that? And oh, by the way,
28:24don't privatize my fund. I want the guarantee. Congressman, I hear how passionate you are.
28:32A lot of people saw how passionate you were earlier this week about this. I've known for
28:37a while because you and I have talked about this a year ago. But what do you think is next? Because
28:41as a Democrat in Congress, you're kind of at a disadvantage. Republicans control the White
28:46House, the House, the Senate. So what specifically can you do right now about Social Security?
28:53Because none of not a single Republican on the House Ways and Means Committee
28:57supported your resolution of inquiry.
29:01What we have to do is keep bringing it before the American public. You know, we have election
29:07cycles and that's two years, but we don't have two years here because we have someone who's
29:13laser focused. President Trump fully understands, having served as president for four years,
29:21that he only has a limited amount of time. And the Republicans in Congress understand that
29:28also. That's why they're refusing to bring this before the American people.
29:35And if the American people do not protest, if they're not calling in to their district offices,
29:43and that includes people who may not live in someone's district, all we need, imagine this,
29:51is three Republicans to stand up and say, this is not right. We can't go through this.
30:01And what will make them say that? People calling in, people stepping up, people demanding,
30:10as we will continue to do, that Elon Musk come before the committee
30:17and explain. He seems to be more than willing to go on talk shows and on TV programs and
30:24tell everybody about his plan for privatization. And look,
30:28let's acknowledge that he's a very bright and capable person, maybe a genius in some
30:34respects. But I don't care whether you're a genius or whether you're the wealthiest man in the world,
30:40you are not above the democracy and you are answerable to the American people under our
30:47constitution. And that's what I think roils me the most, is that nobody is above the law
30:54in this country. And that's why they have to be answerable. And if our Republican colleagues
31:00think otherwise, they owe that explanation to their constituents and the American people.
31:06I don't believe in their heart of hearts that they do.
31:09Congressman, I've kept you entirely too long, but I do have one more question if you have the time,
31:13because it does seem like you've been standing on a mountain alone talking about Social Security,
31:19screaming from the rooftop saying, hey, Congress hasn't acted in 50 years. Why is no one listening?
31:24You're giving these cards out to all of your colleagues. I've talked weekly almost with AARP
31:31polling going up to the election. Voters who are above 54, I believe, were the voters who were
31:39most likely to participate in the election. This is an issue that they care about the most.
31:46Why does Congress not act? Is it because it's not a sexy topic? I mean, what does that look like?
31:51Because it's been kicked down the cannon. To your point, both parties bear some responsibility.
31:59Having said that, this is the legacy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Philosophically,
32:09the other side and Elon Musk are lying out how they feel about it. When President Trump says
32:17he's not going to touch Social Security, what does that mean?
32:25Does that mean he wouldn't privatize it? Does that mean that he wouldn't say,
32:33I have another way of making this program work? I think they owe it to the American people,
32:41as do the Republicans, to bring them before Congress and get these answers, especially
32:48when Elon Musk is so brazen about coming out and saying that, in fact, this is what he intends to
32:57do. That, in fact, those three programs are where the money is. Of those three programs,
33:05which one has a trust fund of $2.7 trillion in it? The American people, some may have been born
33:17at night, but not last night. We're well aware of this. This is something that is going to take
33:26a real democratic national movement on people demanding. What they hope is they can get
33:34through this as fast as they can with this, what they would like to say, one beautiful bill with
33:39no accountability, no one caring about what their true agenda is and what they're looking at.
33:48That can't hold in a democracy. Otherwise, we don't have a democracy.
33:55We have tyranny of the majority.
33:59Congressman, a really important conversation. And as there are developments with what Doge does
34:05with Social Security, with Medicare, with Medicaid, I hope you come back on and talk
34:10about it with me. I really appreciate the time today. Thank you so much for joining me.