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00:00It was an extraordinary exchange between Donald Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office.
00:03You're gambling with World War III.
00:06Should Ukraine be given its land back by Russia, its sovereign territory?
00:09Frankly, I...
00:10So you're saying that Russia should keep...
00:11Let me answer the question.
00:12No, I'm sorry, I completely reject that.
00:13It's not different at all. It's a conflict.
00:15Let's not be childish about other examples.
00:17Stephen Flynn made a jibe at you and...
00:19A few of Putin's piddles who are not in their seat.
00:21I'm not taking any garbage, any jealous, weak politician in Westminster.
00:26We're the strongest. We're the toughest.
00:29This is gross negligence. It's a complete betrayal.
00:32It's treachery. It's dangerous.
00:35Starmer is the stupid one.
00:36When reform is elected, we're going to rip up this deal.
00:40It was an extraordinary exchange between Donald Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office.
00:43What did you make of that when you saw it?
00:45Look, the reality is that peace talks are always difficult.
00:49Most conflicts and wars end up in some form of difficult, tense negotiation.
00:55And this was always going to be the case.
00:57Normally, that happens behind closed doors.
00:59Very unusual to see it in the public gaze.
01:03And did it shock you?
01:06Yes, it shocked everybody.
01:08But what you've got to do is actually focus on what's the objective.
01:11The objective is we've got to find a way to get to an enduring peace.
01:16And the only way we can do that is by talking, however difficult, however hard it is.
01:22And it's actually not about personalities.
01:25It's about the objective.
01:26To get an enduring peace, it's all around the quality of the security guarantees.
01:32And I've been saying that for weeks, as has Nigel.
01:36And it's also around the money.
01:39And actually, there's $300 billion of Russian state assets held in Western central banks
01:46that Western leaders are being ridiculously feeble about having the courage to say,
01:53we're going to take those state assets from the aggressor Russia,
01:56and we're going to use those to help rebuild Ukraine,
02:00to help defend Ukraine with those security guarantees,
02:04and potentially to repay some of the money that's been donated by Western nations.
02:11So there's a lot to go for there.
02:13That money is a critical part of the security guarantees.
02:18And it's funny that people are reluctant to talk about it.
02:22I think it's completely unacceptable.
02:24We can get the right strong security guarantees.
02:27We've got to put everything on the table.
02:29Should Ukraine be given its land back by Russia as sovereign territory?
02:32Yes, it's sovereign territory, of course.
02:34But at the end of the day, people want peace.
02:36And everybody has to be, frankly...
02:39So you're saying that Russia should keep...
02:40Hang on. Let me answer the question.
02:42Everybody has to be honest about it.
02:44There are different ways to deal with land issues.
02:47For example, you could reach a peace agreement
02:50where you accept that the sovereign territory is Ukraine,
02:53but you grant a long lease to Russia, for example.
02:57No one wants to reward Russia, but to get to peace,
03:01difficult discussions and compromises have to be made.
03:05Frankly, the West failed in its response to Russia's invasion of Crimea
03:13and the east of Ukraine.
03:15It didn't step up to the plate.
03:17But we are where we are.
03:19Mistakes have been made in the past.
03:21Let's remember, back in 2008, at the Bucharest NATO summit,
03:27it was America that said Ukraine should join NATO,
03:31and it was Germany and France that rejected it,
03:34and Britain didn't even show up.
03:36So we've all made bad mistakes in history.
03:40Just imagine, if Ukraine had joined NATO over a decade ago,
03:46Putin wouldn't have gone into Crimea and the east of Ukraine.
03:50So no one's blameless here, but Putin is the aggressor,
03:54but we have to get to a peace,
03:56and that will involve difficult negotiations.
03:59People might be a bit confused,
04:01because reform is all about patriotism and protecting Britain's borders.
04:05People shouldn't be confused at all.
04:07So Ukraine's borders are less important than the UK borders?
04:10Sovereign borders are sovereign borders.
04:12We're robust and clear about that, but we've all made mistakes.
04:16And sometimes we all end up doing things and accepting compromises
04:22that we don't want to accept.
04:24In the UK, we had tense, difficult negotiations,
04:29and really uncomfortable compromises were made to get peace in Northern Ireland,
04:33including people forget.
04:35We had to concede the possibility in the future
04:39of a referendum in Northern Ireland to join the Republic.
04:42Really difficult. Might never happen.
04:44Might happen in decades to come. Who knows?
04:47And that peace has lasted 25 years plus.
04:50No one's saying it's easy.
04:52People would say Northern Ireland is quite different to...
04:55No, I'm sorry, I completely reject that.
04:57It's not different at all. It's a conflict.
04:59It was a war. It went on for a long time, and people died.
05:02And we ended up making a difficult compromise that was uncomfortable,
05:08but peace was secured.
05:11We were dealing with terrorists that were aggressive,
05:14and were killing people.
05:16Here, you've got a Russian aggressor that has created a conflict and a war
05:23and is killing people.
05:25And it's delusional to think that we'd like to push Russia back,
05:31but the reality is that it's delusional to think that Ukraine
05:34is going to be able to take back Crimea, for example.
05:40So we've got to try for peace.
05:43Let's say Wales or Cornwall were taken over by an aggressor of some kind.
05:47To reach a peace, would you cede those territories,
05:49or would you keep fighting to keep those territories?
05:51Look, that's a hypothetical that we don't need to discuss.
05:54We're talking about Ukraine here.
05:56Let's not be childish about other examples.
05:58Focus on Ukraine. Focus on how do we get a peace
06:02with difficult negotiations, tense negotiations,
06:08uncomfortable compromises.
06:10But fundamentally, we're three years in.
06:12We've got a stalemate.
06:14It's quite right for President Trump,
06:16elected on a mandate of securing peace, for him to try for peace.
06:20So you'd be satisfied with Russia keeping that territory?
06:23It's quite right for President Trump to try and secure a peace.
06:27It might not be possible.
06:28A peace is only a peace if it endures with security guarantees.
06:32No-one's comfortable with any of this.
06:34Don't be daft. Look, we all hate it.
06:37But equally, we all want peace.
06:39Most of all, the brave Ukrainians want peace.
06:43But actually, I think there's a recognition
06:47that the support from the West to Ukraine
06:54has enabled Ukraine to bravely defend itself,
06:58to stop total occupation by the hideous aggressor, Putin.
07:04And that has put Ukraine in a position to have a negotiation.
07:08The remarkable incursion into Russia by Ukraine
07:14was also a significant moment.
07:17And all credit to the Ukrainian leadership
07:22and to the brave soldiers who did that.
07:24That was a remarkable achievement,
07:26which really put Putin on the back foot.
07:29So look, we need to find a way to peace,
07:33to get to peace that endures.
07:36Of course it's difficult.
07:37Of course no-one wants to be in the situation we're in.
07:40But we are where we are.
07:41We've got to find a way out of this.
07:43Stephen Flynn made a jibe at you
07:45and other reform MPs calling you Putin's poodles.
07:47What would you say in response to that?
07:49He's just being childish.
07:51Let me just remind everybody,
07:52including all the Daily Express readers
07:54and the Sunday Express readers,
07:56it was only Reform UK in the election last year
07:59that talked about peace through strength
08:02by having a commitment to get to 2.5%
08:05of defence spending of GDP in three years
08:08and 3% in six years.
08:10We were the only party that recognises
08:12you need peace through strength.
08:15It wasn't in the Conservative manifesto.
08:17It wasn't in the Labour manifesto.
08:19Quite rightly, Keir Starmer is catching up
08:21with the reform policy.
08:233% probably is not going to be enough.
08:25So contrary to the garbage that's been spoken,
08:29we are the strongest on understanding
08:32that the best way to guarantee peace
08:36is prepare for war.
08:37That means serious, competent,
08:41significant defence spending.
08:43And we said in our election contract,
08:46cut, slash foreign aid.
08:48Now, Starmer's agreeing with us.
08:50So, yeah, once again,
08:52we've actually been proven
08:54that we're the strongest,
08:55we're the toughest,
08:56we're ahead of the game,
08:57and we're right.
08:58The Prime Minister criticised yourself
09:00and Nigel Farage, the former MP,
09:02for not being at the defence spending announcement
09:04in the chamber and the debates.
09:05Why weren't you there?
09:06Because I had a commitment,
09:07long-standing commitment,
09:09in Lincolnshire on an energy conference.
09:11Energy is critical to our national security.
09:13It's critical to people's prosperity.
09:15I was at the three-hour debate on Ukraine.
09:18I spoke a couple of times,
09:20very robustly,
09:22in support of peace through strength,
09:25very robustly about my experience
09:27going to Ukraine 13 months ago,
09:29where I donated a five-figure sum
09:31with other volunteers.
09:33We bought pick-up trucks,
09:34filled them with medical supplies,
09:36drove them to Ukraine,
09:38gave them to frontline soldiers,
09:40met with people who were developing the drones,
09:44wept alongside mums weeping over the graves
09:47of their sons in cemeteries.
09:49So I'm not taking any garbage
09:52from any jealous, weak politician in Westminster.
09:57We're the strongest.
09:58We're the toughest.
09:59That's why we're now leading in the national polls,
10:01and I'm very proud of that.
10:03Is the conflict in Ukraine existential
10:06as regards Britain,
10:07with Russia violating territory?
10:09Does it impact us here as well?
10:11Well, at the end of the day,
10:13I repeat my point.
10:14The best way to guarantee peace
10:17is prepare for war.
10:18And people are making ridiculous analogies
10:22about appeasement and linking it to 1938.
10:25The difference here is that
10:27we've always been talking about
10:29the need for strong security guarantees.
10:31That's the critical thing.
10:33Back in 1938,
10:34there was no discussion about that.
10:36So it's a complete false analogy.
10:39And we have to recognise
10:41one of the reasons we are where we are
10:43is because Western nations have been weak.
10:46They haven't paid up.
10:47They've banked the Cold War dividend,
10:49didn't invest for the potential
10:52of something happening in the future.
10:54And so we've all got ourselves to blame
10:58for ending up where our defence forces,
11:01ammunition and resources are not strong enough.
11:04But I repeat, of course,
11:06Putin is a vile dictator and aggressor.
11:10The only way that you can deal with that
11:13is to have a strong security guarantee
11:15to get to a peace in Ukraine
11:18and to ensure that they realise
11:20that the strength of NATO
11:22and the Western resolve is absolute
11:25and that we've all got enough
11:28equipment, technology and people
11:31to deal with future threats.
11:32What do you make of Trump's Gaza plan?
11:34Because he released a video
11:35which seemed to be AI depicting it
11:37as sort of like a seaside resort
11:39with massive skyscrapers and massive beaches.
11:41Him and Benjamin Netanyahu at a hotel pool.
11:44What did you make of that when you saw that?
11:45Look, the truth is that President Trump
11:47quite rightly said we can't carry on as we are.
11:50We can't be here in 20 years' time
11:53with people killing each other
11:56in Gaza and Israel and the West Bank.
11:59And he said we've got to think big.
12:01We've got to think differently.
12:03He set out a big, ambitious vision which...
12:08Would you support that?
12:10What we all support is peace in the Middle East.
12:12And essentially, those who instantly criticised it
12:16quite rightly, he was very smart.
12:18He said, well, OK, if you don't like my plan,
12:20what's your plan?
12:21It's your region, you're the Arab nations,
12:24you've got the money, you've got the land,
12:26what's your plan?
12:27So you'd rather not see those massive skyscrapers
12:29and big developments?
12:30I love skyscrapers.
12:31Trump hotels.
12:32I'm a real estate guy.
12:33Trump hotel.
12:34We all want peace.
12:35Trump wants peace.
12:36You've got to have a vision and you've got to have courage
12:39in order to get there.
12:40And at the moment, no one else had that vision.
12:42And what Trump quite rightly said,
12:44if you don't like my plan, what's your plan?
12:46Finally, what did you make of Keir's visit to the White House?
12:49He had a reasonable visit to the White House.
12:52But most importantly of all, I'm very anxious
12:56that he is continuing to pursue with this betrayal of Britain
13:00by giving away a very valuable strategic interest
13:03in the Chagos Islands.
13:04Are you surprised that Trump appeared to back that?
13:06Look, the reality is, as we understand,
13:09America's got much bigger fish to fry.
13:12It's worried about China, it's worried about Ukraine,
13:14it's worried about Russia, as we all are.
13:16And in a sense, Trump and his team are saying,
13:20well, hang on, so you dumb limeys are going to pay
13:25these tens of billions of pounds to Mauritius,
13:27we're going to get these islands for 140 years or such like.
13:32We've got possession.
13:34So it's not our problem, it's your problem, Britain.
13:36If you're stupid enough to give away a freehold
13:39and pay someone else to take it, that's your problem.
13:41That's what I think they're going through.
13:43And I think this is gross negligence.
13:46It's a complete betrayal.
13:48It's treachery. It's dangerous.
13:50And we're absolutely furious.
13:52So what I can tell your readers is that
13:55when reform is elected, we're going to rip up this deal.
13:58We're not going to recognise it.
13:59We're going to stop the payments.
14:01We're going to stop direct flights to Mauritius.
14:03We're going to stop visas to Mauritians.
14:06This is an invalid deal that is in breach
14:10of the original international treaty in the 1960s,
14:13when, let's remember, Britain paid three million pounds
14:17to Mauritius as part of a deal
14:21to give up any potential future claims.
14:23Mauritius is in breach of that deal.
14:25It's an outrage.
14:27We've got to stand up and say this is not happening.
14:30So I'm telling Express readers,
14:32Reform UK will stand up for British interests.
14:35We will stop those payments
14:37and we will not continue this mad treaty.
14:39Do you think Mr Trump knows the full information?
14:42He's far too busy for that.
14:45And I just repeat the point, from their perspective,
14:47it's not their problem.
14:50Starmer is the stupid one who wants to pay
14:55our taxpayers' cash, pensioners' cash,
14:58to the Mauritians.
15:00They're literally trying to steal our freehold
15:04and take our money.
15:05Apart from that, you think Starmer had a good visit?
15:07I think he had a reasonable visit.
15:09And given what's happened since, it's irrelevant.
15:13Starmer's visit is now irrelevant,
15:15given what's happened since.
15:17I just repeat the point that we've got to try for peace.
15:21There are always difficult negotiations.
15:23You'll always have difficult walkout-style moments.
15:27The fact that it was in public rather than private,
15:29regrettable.
15:30Keep your focus on the objective.
15:32Keep your focus on the guarantees.