Tamil Nadu Chief Minister MK Stalin on Wednesday held an all-party meeting in Chennai opposing the Union government’s delimitation plan. Stalin pointed out that if the delimitation is implemented as per the population census, it would weaken Tamil Nadu's political influence.
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00:00Good evening and welcome. You're watching The News Track. I'm Rahul Kamal.
00:04On the show this evening, the politically explosive debate around delimitation.
00:09Stalin and the DMK government in Tamil Nadu constantly upping the ante on the issue of delimitation.
00:15There has been no census so far. Delimitation will follow a national census. Is this debate premature?
00:22Are parties in Tamil Nadu whipping up this frenzy with an eye on the assembly elections next year?
00:28That's my top focus on The News Track.
00:59But Stalin continues on warpath.
01:05Fear mongering or real concern? That is our big focus on The News Track.
01:14Delimitation has become a major flashpoint between Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Stalin and the Centre.
01:19Today, MK Stalin presided over an all-party meeting which included rival AIDMK to discuss delimitation and the imposition of Hindi.
01:27The meeting saw Stalin tabling a resolution urging Prime Minister Modi to ensure delimitation,
01:34if it is carried out now, is based on the census of 1971. Pramod Madhav with the details.
01:49The fight over delimitation escalates in Tamil Nadu.
01:54Chief Minister MK Stalin held an all-party meeting in Chennai against the proposed redrawing of Lok Sabha constituencies based on 2025 census.
02:06CM Stalin fears that Tamil Nadu will lose national representation once a population-based delimitation happens.
02:15Tamil Nadu's voice will be heard in Indian politics if such an unfair system is implemented.
02:24The strength of our state will be diminished if Tamil Nadu's and other Tamil Nadu's people's support is lost.
02:33All parties including the principal opposition party AIADMK attended the meet.
02:39The state BJP, however, skipped it.
02:42Amit Shah has gone one step further even before the announcement to say it will be a pro-rata.
02:48That is to clarify to any political party that is trying to create any other fissures in our Indian democratic republic.
02:56So we are very clear when the time comes, when the central government announces it to the Indian public,
03:02it will be made exactly how we have made one nation, one election.
03:07MNM chief and actor Kamal Haasan vowed support to Stalin in his fight against delimitation.
03:14All government decisions made in the centre is executed by the states.
03:20If at all you want to increase anything, increase the number of people's representative.
03:26Let the assembly seats be increased. That is our recommendation.
03:31The all party meeting passed a resolution against delimitation.
03:35The resolution rejects delimitation based on upcoming census
03:40and instead demands delimitation on the basis of 1971 census.
03:45TVK chief and actor Vijay, the new entrant in state politics also spoke out.
03:51Dalapathi claimed delimitation if needed should be done fairly
03:56and the centre should hold a discussion with all stakeholders before it happens.
04:02With more support pouring in, MK Stalin aims to broaden his fight against delimitation to other southern states.
04:17More than 60 parties were invited for the all party meeting where the chief minister placed the resolutions,
04:22one against delimitation and the other one to constitute a joint committee with representatives from southern states.
04:29While BJP dismisses this as nothing but an imaginary fear,
04:33DMK claims that this is an absolute fear that has brought in all parties of the southern states together.
04:43Now it's quite clear that the central government hasn't announced the formula with which delimitation will be conducted.
04:52And the home minister is on record in an interview that I did saying that this will be on a pro rata basis
04:57and that the numeric strength of the southern states will not be compromised with.
05:03Yet with elections just about a year away in the state of Tamil Nadu,
05:07you've got MK Stalin, the chief minister, upping the antic constantly,
05:12creating a specter of fear that delimitation will lead to the centre taking seats away
05:19from the numerically inferior south to the numerically superior north.
05:24Because there are fewer people in the south, more people in the north.
05:27So the fear that is being created is that Lok Sabha seats will be taken away
05:30and that southern states and the people of Tamil Nadu will lose their electoral voice.
05:35But there is no evidence. It's all shadow fighting because we don't know who is actually going to do what just at this moment.
05:44What's really going on? I'm joined on this broadcast by A. Saravanan from the DMK.
05:49We've got with us Anil Antony from the Bharatiya Janata Party.
05:54I've got Rajesh Kalappa from the Congress Party. I have Poonam Motreja who is an expert on population,
06:01works as executive director of the Population Foundation of India. I have Jyotsana Thirunagri from the TDP.
06:08And this is important because she is an ally of the BJP but also an important southern state by itself.
06:13And I have R. Rangarajan who is an author, political analyst and he has written and researched the actual issue of delimitation.
06:20I want to go across to Saravanan first. Now, this is like, you know, placing the cart before the horse.
06:27We don't know what the formula for delimitation is. Tamil Nadu government is convinced that there are 848 seats,
06:35that from 39 Tamil Nadu's Lok Sabha tally will come down to 32.
06:40So, you are now building the specter of this fear without any basis. Now, I am not saying this won't happen.
06:46It is amongst the things which will be explored. The Home Minister has already said southern states will not be compromised.
06:51Why are you creating, why are you doing so much fear mongering?
06:54Yeah, knowing the BJP so well, knowing how they will trample upon the democratic rights,
07:00how they have trampled upon the state's rights in the last 10 years. Our Chief Minister is batting from the front foot.
07:07The only reason the BJP is coming, keeping quiet, is throwing muck around is that they have been caught.
07:14They have been caught unawares. They thought they could sneak in.
07:18Their usual sly cunning way, they thought they could bring in this delimitation.
07:23But due to the alacrity of our Chief Minister, now it has become the debate in the entire country.
07:28No, let's hold this one by one. No, once again, once again. Saravanan, delimitation is not something you can sneak in from the back door.
07:35When delimitation happens, the whole world, the whole country will know about it. Every voter will know about delimitation.
07:40Secondly, it's not something happening in the shadows. There will be consultations, a formula will be first suggested,
07:46then announced and the Home Minister is on record saying that the prorata number of seats with the southern states will not be compromised.
07:54That the percentage of seats in the Lok Sabha coming from Tamil Nadu in the new delimited Lok Sabha will again be the same.
08:00So, this is really, you know, you are creating this bogeyman around delimitation without having any reason at this moment to do so.
08:08Yeah, Rahul, you are contradicting yourself. In the sense that you said there is nothing that is going on and you are quoting Mr. Amit Shah
08:17that if at all it happens, it will be on a prorata basis. There can be only one point or one defence to this.
08:23See, leaving aside that, how this is the opportune moment to rake up this issue.
08:282021, sorry, 2001, the BJP then government said we are going to freeze it for the next 25 years.
08:36So, 25 years is almost over. 2026 is the way, the day when it gets over and the 84th Constitutional Amendment
08:44clearly states that after the first census, after 2026, delimitation will begin.
08:49And what has the BJP government done? Why I say that they are sneaking, they are sly, they are cunning
08:55because they have not conducted the census until now. 2021 census, which has to happen, did not happen due to COVID.
09:02And they promised, Mr. Amit Shah promised on the floor of the assembly for parliament
09:08during the tabling of the women's reservation bill that they will conduct the census immediately after the election.
09:13No, but delimitation will happen after the census, Sarvanan. Right now, the census, I'm saying, isn't this a bit premature?
09:19At some point in time, there may be this fight. Okay, but that fight, is this the time?
09:24All we know is that next April, May, our elections, you will be judged on your performance.
09:29Rather than being judged on your performance, you want that you whip up emotions around the issue of delimitation.
09:34First, the census will happen, then delimitation will happen.
09:37It will not happen likely in time for the next assembly elections in April and May.
09:41No, no, no. See, this is not about the assembly elections at all.
09:44This is about how the BJP is trying to put a fast one on us. We will not allow that to happen.
09:50Why have they not conducted the census until now, which should have happened in 2021?
09:54Let us assume that the 2021 census had happened. Then what would have happened?
09:58No, but this is if and but. This is like debating. No, no, Sarvanan, Sarvanan, Sarvanan.
10:03This is like, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir, sir
10:33This is their cunning plan. This is there. How do you know? It's the plan
10:37And now you must listen to me. I've heard you. Yes, there's a India versus someone final on Sunday in the Champions Trophy
10:44We don't know who India will play against
10:46You are already saying that India will be up against South Africa in India will lose because we are police
10:52To fit and Rohit Sharma is too fat and therefore India has lost because Rohit Sharma is
10:56I mean, I'll be Patani who will India play with whether Kohli will score runs or Rohit Sharma will score runs
11:01How many runs will this go? None of this is known?
11:03No
11:04But Rohit Sharma is to blame because he's now what a punch and therefore India has lost the final on Sunday
11:08We haven't got there the census hasn't happened
11:10The delimitation hasn't happened and yet you're making it seem as if it's the most important issue of the day
11:15Absolutely. That is the reason why you are debating this
11:18That is the reason why every journalist what this salt is writing about the delimitation and the injustice that is going to happen to the South
11:24Africa, so sorry South India and you are comparing
11:28Comparing a cricket match with how the BJP ICC
11:33Fortunately, it's not governed by the BJP
11:36Probably it is gone by the son of a BJP minister, but it is not governed by BJP and the RSS
11:42Therefore they're immune from the machinations the BJP is used to do and you want us to trust BJP really?
11:47No, I'm not you shouldn't trust the BJP the BJP are your opponents. Of course, you shouldn't trust them
11:51But you Rahul this is what the chief minister has done is the right way
11:57The BJP is allowed the prime minister will wax eloquent about co-operative federalism
12:02But he had every conceivable opportunity. He will do something which will take away the right. No, but a lot of this, you know
12:09I'll see. Okay. We are hearing the DMK speak and ultimately it's the viewers will make up their mind
12:13a lot of this is premature because the
12:17Sunday final hasn't happened. We don't even know who we are up against and if we don't know who we are up against
12:21How can we say?
12:22You know you're saying we will lose we will lose at this moment you don't okay Saravanan, I think you've spoken enough
12:28Let me go across some of the other guests Anil Antony. I'll start with you
12:31You know, what is very clear is that in Tamil Nadu in particular?
12:34This is a hot-button emotive political issue in other states as well. It has resonance
12:39There is enough traction which is visible on television on social media on digital to say people are connecting with this issue
12:45It's becoming a big political storm for you. Are you being unable to handle this?
12:49Thank you. Thank you Rahul. Thank you for having me in the show
12:52So one thing is becoming very clear over a period of time, especially the last few months
12:59Our opposition especially the India Alliance members. They are trying to create false narrations
13:03They are trying to create imaginary divisions which doesn't exist
13:07During the Lok Sabha elections itself the India Alliance members
13:10They tried to create hypothetical North versus South divide etc
13:14But the people of India comprehensively rejected it gave us a third street mandate record mandate
13:19Where the Bharatiya Janata Party became the largest party in the North-South now East-West everywhere
13:24We are the largest party. Now again Tamil Nadu elections are coming next year once again
13:28Some of the issues are only in Tamil Nadu where there are some narration that is being created
13:34But right now I was hearing my esteemed panelists from the DMK speak today also
13:40And there is an attempt to say that these are all done by the BJP
13:45Delimitation is not a Bharatiya Janata Party exercise. This is something that is mandated by the constitution
13:50The India Alliance members keep on telling that they are the protectors of constitution thus where by the constitution
13:56But everything they are saying is against constitution where when the Bharatiya Janata Party which is having a central government
14:02Where we are by oath required to ensure that constitutional provisions are taken care of
14:09We are being opposed. At the same time people like Mr. Rahul Gandhi he wants to do a caste census
14:14He wants to redistribute based on he wants to give reservations based on caste census religion
14:20This is not allowed in the constitution yet this is what they are saying.
14:23No but you are giving me general rhetoric I am asking you a very specific issue
14:26Stalin in the resolution that has been passed in Tamil Nadu is asking for 1971 census to be the basis for the next 30 years
14:33He said this at the all party meeting on delimitation. This is clearly becoming an emotive issue
14:38It doesn't just have consequences for you in Tamil Nadu where the BJP is a fringe player
14:42It also has larger consequences in all the southern states where you are hoping to make inroads in Kerala
14:48You are hoping to win back Karnataka hoping to do better in Telangana and Andhra Pradesh
14:54So it has panned South India ramifications and at this moment he is whipping up this hysteria
15:00And the BJP doesn't seem to be able to counter it properly
15:04No you look at history again I will just give couple of points
15:08The census and delimitation is not the first time it has happened in India's history
15:13Census is a practice that happens every 10 years from 1951 till the last 61, 71, 81, 2001
15:20Every 10 years it has been happening. It is just 2021 where because of pandemic there is a delay
15:26At the same time again delimitation it has happened multiple times before also after 1951 and 1961
15:31But this is an important point and I want to build on this with Prajesh Kalappa who is a lawyer also outside of politics
15:36Mr. Kalappa delimitation is not something that Amit Shah and Modi are doing
15:41There is a constitutional mandate for delimitation. The framework for delimitation is defined
15:46And that is how it is meant to be implemented to break that framework would be to go away from what is mandated by law
15:54And therefore what do you make of the kind of opposition we are seeing from the DMK and from other parties
16:00Because the congress has stakes not just in the south but across the country
16:04See Rahul I think the issue which the DMK party and the chief minister are speaking about is an extremely important issue
16:14Mr. Sidramaiah from the congress party has also spoken about the same issue
16:18And I also have some kind of first hand knowledge regarding how delimitation affects each one of us
16:25In 2008 the delimitation exercise for the state of Karnataka assembly took place
16:31And Coorg from where I hail we lost one assembly constituency as the result of which Coorg today has only two assembly constituencies
16:40Therefore we were directly hit. So this is the same situation we are now facing as a state
16:45The state of Karnataka is now going to lose two members of parliament
16:49Therefore now what is likely to happen is that those areas which have not been focusing on efficient use of their resources
17:00Are going to be rewarded while those who are making efficient use of their resources
17:06No but can I pause you to say in the 543 scenario which is if the number of Lok Sabha seats stays the same
17:12And then seats are reallocated basis population Karnataka comes down from 28 to 26
17:17If however you go to an 848 formula then Karnataka goes up from 28 plus 13 that's 41
17:24And the fact is at this moment we don't know what the formula framework is
17:29And therefore all of this is a castle in the air that's the problem I had with Sarbanand
17:33It's the same issue with you. You are already saying as the gospel that Karnataka will lose two seats
17:38I am saying you don't know boss. No no see we know because of this reason
17:44That the south doesn't send as many seats for the BJP as the north does
17:49I think the answer is very simple I don't think it requires
17:52No but the formula for delimitation is not decided by the BJP
17:57See I think the answer is very clear to anybody who knows how the BJP functions
18:03Because BJP simply has not enough numbers from the south
18:07So therefore it would be in the BJP's interest to push the south down and pull the north up
18:14And this is what the BJP is consistently doing
18:16No but the BJP cannot decide sir it's like one day cricket the rules are decided by the ICC
18:21The BJP can't decide their own rules the manner in which delimitation will happen
18:25Those rules are already decided written down and mandated
18:29You are wrong you are wrong see it is the mandate of the government
18:34And that is the mandate is given to the delimitation exercise as to what rule to follow
18:41Do you follow the proportionality of population or do you follow the proportionality of what the population was in 1971
18:48If you did follow the proportionality of population to 1971
18:54Therefore our population will be protected therefore our number of seats will be protected
18:59No but there the home minister who is supposed to carry out this exercise has already publicly stated
19:05I will show you an excerpt where he is publicly saying that the interest of the southern states in terms of the numbers
19:11As a percentage that they have going into parliament will not be impacted he said this publicly
19:17They don't believe it but let's listen to the home minister
19:21There is a big question in the southern states about delimitation
19:25That after 2026 you will have to do delimitation
19:29And they are worried that the number of seats in the southern states will reduce
19:33And in the northern states as the population is more the number of seats will increase
19:37I have some statistics with me this is a political scholar from America Milan Vaishnav
19:42Why do you go to America and England again and again you don't find any scholar here
19:48Find a scholar from here find one from Bengal find one from Maharashtra find one from Punjab
19:54Anyway tell me
19:55The question is that this is a big concern in the southern states that our seats will reduce
20:00I will tell you earlier also this problem came
20:02The Indian People's Party is in agreement with the concerns of the southern states
20:07All the parties together should find a solution to this
20:12And with this sensitivity should do delimitation
20:17You are saying a big thing
20:19This is not a new thing our leaders have spoken on the floor Arun Jaitley and Sushma Sarath both have spoken
20:28Because when they will listen they will feel a lot of relief
20:31Don't ask questions there is relief
20:34Don't ask questions we have spoken there
20:37Our leaders have spoken on the floor
20:42So there you have him Sarvananda
20:44Home Minister is publicly saying that as a percentage the seats will not be tinkered with in proportion
20:51Therefore if the proportion says the same if the numerator goes up your seats will go up as well
20:58See Rahul you are asking a very pertinent question
21:02On what basis you are making these allegations
21:05We are making these allegations because even as per the constitution
21:09The delimitation exercise has to follow the census
21:12And definitely if we follow the census the population is higher in Northern India
21:17And it has come down in South India
21:19Therefore if you follow population we will lose seats
21:22We don't want that to happen
21:23And you are saying the Home Minister has given a promise
21:26Where?
21:27They are breezing the promises given in the parliament
21:31You want us to believe the promise of Mr. Amit Shah
21:34Which was given in a political rally
21:36Tomorrow he will come and say that is an election jumla
21:38Mr. Modi promised 2 crore jobs
21:41Mr. Amit Shah came and said selling pakoda is also a job
21:44And you want us to listen to such people
21:47Anil Antony it's a question of credibility and believability
21:50They are saying we don't believe what you say
21:52Absolutely that is why the Chief Minister has said
21:56Sarvananda you must let others speak as well
21:58Sarvananda let others speak let Anil Antony respond
22:01See why is there a stress on 1971
22:05It's not any other document it is the constitution of India itself
22:08That says that there should be a census
22:10And then after the census there should be a delimitation
22:12Then there had been two constitutional amendments
22:15First in 1976 and then in 2021
22:18Where this exercise was frozen for 25-25 years
22:21That time period is coming to an end in 26
22:24So this is something which the Bharatiya Janata Party
22:26As a responsible government we have an obligation to do
22:29Because we are protecting the constitution
22:31But I am going to tell something very clearly
22:33The India Alliance members including the Congress and their allies
22:35They are cherry picking facts
22:37Delimitation is not something that is happening just in a national level
22:40Also it is happening in a state level
22:42Let me just go to my state Kerala
22:44Like where again delimitation exercise is going to happen at some point
22:47And when that is going to happen
22:49There are certain districts in Northern Kerala
22:51Malappuram, Kozhikode etc
22:53Which is going to actually have a fairly large increase in seats
22:56Almost like 8-9 seats that area is going to have an increase
23:00And many of the Southern districts including the constituency where I fought from
23:03We are all going to lose seats
23:05There again the BJP is not saying
23:07They are not making it into a political issue
23:10And there the Congress party and their alliance partners
23:13Including many others who are all India Alliance members
23:18They are all supporting that
23:20Ok, so let me now go across to Rangarajan
23:22Who is an expert on delimitation
23:24Explain to our viewers very briefly
23:26What the mandate is, how it is supposed to be
23:28And whether you think the fear of the Southern states is valid
23:30Mr. Rangarajan
23:32Thank you for having me here Rahul
23:34I think it is not a premature discussion
23:36It is a very important discussion because
23:38As you rightly said
23:40The 2021 census has been delayed
23:42And the delimitation has to be done based on the first census after 2026
23:45We are already in 2025
23:47Now I have written about it in the Hindu
23:50Even today I have written an article
23:52I feel that there is a strong argument to
23:55Freeze it forever at this 543
23:58I will tell you three reasons
24:00Why this needs to be done
24:02Number one
24:04We had frozen it in 1976
24:06And again in 2001
24:08Two different Prime Ministers, two different parties
24:10But they understood the importance of federalism
24:12It is like a conflict between democracy and federalism
24:14One person, one value versus federalism
24:16These are like two eyes
24:18With which you can envision
24:20Developed India
24:22We have lived with this for the last 50 years
24:24We have functioned with it for the last 50 years
24:26Our population has increased from 55 crores
24:28To 145 crores at present
24:30And we have functioned with this 543
24:32There is no fun in tinkering with it
24:34When it is going to just go up by 20 more crores
24:36In the next two decades
24:38And then stabilize and decline
24:40But there is logic because
24:42Some of these Lok Sabha constituencies
24:44Are just too big
24:46There are just too many people
24:48In every constituency for one MP to be able to handle
24:50As it happened in 2001
24:52To redraw the constituencies
24:54So that the population is evenly distributed
24:56Amongst the constituencies
24:58That can always be done
25:00But this 543 can remain as it is
25:02Because even see, the Home Minister said
25:04Pro-rata basis it will increase
25:06But whether pro-rata is based on population
25:08Or based on percentage
25:10Existing percentage of share
25:12Is not clear
25:14I had a personal conversation with him about this
25:16He made very clear that your percentage in parliament
25:18Will not change
25:20As a percentage you will still send the same number
25:22Even if the overall number of seats goes up
25:24Let me just complete my point
25:26So 543 remaining
25:28As I said majority of the union government
25:30Programs are implemented by the states
25:32So if you have to increase
25:34The democratic representation
25:36You can always increase the number of MLAs
25:38And more importantly
25:40The most pertinent point
25:42Finance commission gives 45% weightage for income gap
25:44Which is a function of population
25:46And it gives 15% weightage
25:48For the 2011 population
25:50So there is 60% weightage
25:52Which is given based on income gap
25:54And current population
25:56So the southern states which have
25:58Controlled their population
26:00Are already sacrificing financially
26:02In some ways
26:04For the overall welfare of the country
26:06Now if you are required to sacrifice
26:08Even politically
26:10Then that's like a double whammy
26:12And it is not just about the southern states
26:14The northern states of Punjab, Uttarakhand, Himachal
26:16All the north eastern states
26:18Will have you know
26:20A disadvantage because of this exercise
26:22So I would suggest
26:24That don't fix
26:26Mr Rangarajan
26:28What is wrong if
26:30As the Home Minister has said
26:32Seats are increased proportionately
26:34Which means that in Tamil Nadu
26:36You go up from 39
26:38You go up proportionate to where you stand right now
26:40So in a state for example
26:42Like Uttar Pradesh
26:44They go up by much more
26:46But say in Andhra and Telangana
26:48Also the seats go up by 12 in total
26:50In Karnataka they go up by 13 in total
26:52No Rahul
26:54The percentage as per the Carnegie endowment study
26:56If 848 is the number that we take
26:58The percentage of seats for
27:00South which is at 24%
27:02At present will come down to 19%
27:04Because the proportionate increase
27:06Will not be the same across all the states
27:08No but that Carnegie endowment research
27:10That you are quoting is just one framework
27:12It is done by the experts who did it
27:14It is not the government's framework
27:16So why believe that to be the gospel
27:18No having 39 out of 543
27:20Is not the same as having
27:22Even 75 out of 800
27:24Because
27:26No in absolute numbers
27:28But more importantly
27:30No but the problem Rangarajan
27:32With respect the problem with what you are saying
27:34Is that you are suggesting that the
27:36Research done by an international institution
27:38For whatever research reasons
27:40Without even knowing what the formula
27:42And the framework is
27:44Why would you believe Milan Vaishnav
27:46And the Carnegie team
27:48More than you believe Amit Shah
27:50That is just to argue on those numbers
27:52My stand is that this need not be touched at all
27:54No but the point is
27:56You are arguing on those numbers
27:58Basis the belief that those numbers are correct
28:00I am saying you don't know whether those numbers are correct
28:02And that's the problem
28:04So therefore what is the argument based on
28:06I am taking the larger stand here
28:08I am saying there is no need to tinker with this 543
28:10We have worked with this 543
28:12When our population has tripled
28:14And we are at the peak of our population
28:16Why do you want to tinker
28:18No that's a different argument
28:20Why do delimitation at all
28:22That's a different argument
28:24The argument here is
28:26Whether there is reason to create this specter of fear
28:28I want to go across to Poonam Motreja
28:30Because we are now hearing leaders from the south
28:32I don't know whether voters will take them seriously or not
28:34But hopefully they will not
28:36So therefore produce more children
28:38Because the people in the north are producing more children
28:40We are losing out, produce more children
28:42So you know
28:44Whatever the reason
28:46Driven whether it's driven by
28:48Political agenda
28:50Or demographic agenda
28:52Or a religious agenda
28:54No politician
28:56Has any right to suggest
28:58What women should do with their bodies
29:00What
29:02Reproductive choices
29:04Remain very
29:06Must remain very personal decisions
29:08Shaped by individual circumstances
29:10And these circumstances
29:12That shape
29:14Decisions about
29:16How many children people have
29:18Depends on a very complex set of factors
29:20Incomes
29:22Women's education
29:24Women's aspiration
29:26Women's jobs
29:28There are so many many reasons
29:30And you cannot as a politician
29:32Say to women
29:34Reduce the number of children you have
29:36Which is what we have been saying
29:38For the last 50 years
29:40To the women
29:42And their bodies are not switches on and off
29:44And you cannot
29:46Be
29:48No woman will choose to have more children
29:50Simply because
29:52A politician says that
29:54So this is you know
29:56They have to deal with their political issues
29:58They have to deal with the issue of
30:00Understanding the methodology
30:02And what is going to happen
30:04They have to communicate with their
30:06Political partners in the case of
30:08TDP but in the case of
30:10Mr. Stalin
30:12And others
30:14Let them not undo
30:16The good they have done
30:18You know fertility did not decline
30:20Only because people were asked
30:22To have fewer children
30:24Fertility Rahul declined because
30:26They invested in women's education
30:28Women's empowerment
30:30Better governance
30:32South India should be very proud of it
30:34But should not be penalized
30:36No efforts at
30:38Population stabilization
30:40Which come actually from empowering women
30:42Should either be penalized
30:44Or put on the women
30:46You know women
30:48Have very different aspirations
30:50Which is what the politicians
30:52Are not understanding
30:54That's a very important point
30:56I would like to add to Jyotsna Tirunagri
30:58From the TDP because
31:00You represent a government in an important southern state
31:02And yet
31:04You are part of the NDA
31:06And therefore I wonder what you make of
31:08This idea
31:10For example in Andhra Pradesh
31:12And Telangana together
31:14The current seats are 42
31:16It could come down to 34
31:18If the formula as it is originally described
31:20Is implemented even though the Home Minister
31:22Is saying that's not what will happen
31:24This really got Stalin and Saravanan
31:26Very angry as a southern state
31:28And an ally of the NDA
31:30How do you look at this debate?
31:32Definitely with
31:34As you rightly quoted
31:36Definitely with this particular formula
31:38It is not going to work out
31:40We need to rework the formula
31:42As an ally of NDA also
31:44It is one of our concerns
31:46And we have already put it forward to the central government
31:48And whenever the issue comes on
31:50Definitely you know the other time also
31:52A different kind of a comparison
31:54I would like to bring in
31:56We had the Bakht Bill earlier also
31:58There were certain concerns
32:00There were certain changes and modifications that we wanted
32:02And we as a part of the JPC
32:04We went for it and we argued for it
32:06And we talked to the stakeholders
32:08And we could get those three modifications done there
32:10So tomorrow when this particular situation
32:12Also comes in for us
32:14No but shouldn't you press the government
32:16To give the formula
32:18For example in Nepal in 2015
32:20When this modification happened
32:22What happened I want to tell our viewers this
32:24That the Terai region which had more than 50% of the population
32:26Got fewer seats
32:28Because seats were allocated based on geography
32:30And not population
32:32So Terai had smaller area
32:34More people
32:36They got fewer seats
32:38The hilly areas had more geography
32:40Fewer people
32:42But the political elites in Nepal
32:44Come from the hill states
32:46The hill areas
32:48And to the advantage of the hill areas
32:50So things can happen
32:52It happened in Nepal in 2015
32:54Therefore it is important for you to press
32:56The BJP government to tell us
32:58What the formula is
33:00Yes that's what we are saying
33:02Just because Stalin or somebody
33:04Is talking about it
33:06Doesn't mean to all
33:08We just have to do that
33:10And create that fear factor
33:12Among people
33:14My point is we have to raise the proper concerns
33:16We have to ask them to rework the formula
33:18That is my concern
33:20And as a very important ally of NDA
33:22And also a very strong southern state
33:24We are pitching in to rework the formula
33:26We are against the
33:28Current delimitation formula
33:30If it is then we are against it
33:32But if it is
33:34But has the BJP told you
33:36What the formula will be
33:38You are an important ally
33:40That is what I am saying
33:42Nothing has happened yet
33:44The elections next year
33:46The elections coming in Tamil Nadu
33:48I think it comes back to that Saravanan
33:50One second
33:52Let me complete my point
33:54Because they want to make an issue out of it
33:56And you ask us to talk on it
33:58I think that's not something we are supposed to talk
34:00If the situation arises
34:02That we have to stand for the state
34:04We have always stood for the state
34:06And we are very clear on that
34:08That's an important point
34:10When the time comes Saravanan
34:12We will raise this issue
34:14We will stand firmly with the southern states
34:16And we will not allow for the north to get more seats
34:18But when the time comes
34:20When the formula is announced
34:22It is this ICC champions trophy final
34:24Where you are bemoaning India's loss
34:26No it's not a trivial
34:28That is exactly what is happening
34:30Sir that is the way everyone understands this
34:32You are talking about
34:34Why we lost a match
34:36A match which hasn't been played
34:38That's the reality
34:40See Rahul
34:42May be you are obsessed with cricket
34:44But you cannot equate that
34:46With the future of our country
34:48This pertains to the future of our country
34:50And it's a very very warming statement
34:52Coming from TDP
34:54That they will not allow BJP
34:56To run a rough shot
34:58Especially when it comes from TDPC
35:00There is a difference between TDP
35:02And DMK
35:04TDP though we have great respect for
35:06Mr. Chandra Babu Naidu
35:08He has stated
35:103 months back
35:12People in Andhra should have more children
35:14We didn't link it to delimitation
35:16We didn't link it to delimitation
35:18Madam allow me to speak
35:20No no
35:22You are actually talking different
35:24Sir
35:26Allow me to talk
35:28You cannot
35:30I am sorry sir
35:32You cannot twist the words of my leader
35:34You cannot twist the words
35:36If I am wrong you can correct it
35:38If I am wrong you can correct it
35:40I can't have both guests speaking
35:42At the same time
35:44That's not how I run debates
35:46Let Sarvanan complete
35:48This is a huge statement
35:50From the TDP
35:52If Mr. Chandra Babu Naidu
35:54Snooks a kook
35:56Or whatever it is
35:58It is impossible for the BJP
36:00To do what it wants to do
36:02No but you don't know
36:04You don't know what they want to do
36:06You are just imagining what they want to do
36:08Rahul no no
36:10We know what they will do
36:12Because delimitation is always based on population
36:14Unless they say so otherwise
36:16That is what we are saying
36:18No but this is where I want to go to Anil Antony
36:20It requires a more
36:22Which is why we had this news track debate
36:24Just one second ma'am
36:26You must tell Jyotsna and others in the TDP
36:28And others who are your allies
36:30And those who are your opponents
36:32If you already got a formula
36:34If he knows what will happen and what will not happen
36:36Explain that to the public
36:38So that then Sarvanan can come down
36:40Stalin can come down
36:42Why aren't you doing that?
36:44Anil Antony
36:46Thank you for this question
36:48And again first of all I would say that
36:50All this hysteria right now
36:52It is just misguiding the public
36:54Let us again just look at how things happened in the last 75 years
36:56Four times
36:581951, 61, 71 and 2001
37:00There had been censuses
37:02After which there were exercises created
37:0451 and 61
37:06After that there was a delimitation commission
37:08That was created
37:10Which did the process of delimitation
37:12In the 70s and early 2000s
37:14After the census there was a delimitation commission
37:16But this process
37:18Was frozen for 25 years
37:20So there is a process
37:22You can't just take decisions without
37:24Following constitutional provisions
37:26So right now first let the census
37:28It has clearly become a big issue
37:30Why don't you explain to your opponents
37:32Call an all party meeting
37:34Explain the formula
37:36Ensure that there is consensus on the formula
37:38Before you actually go out and do this
37:40Yes so right now
37:42It is becoming a talking point after the elections
37:44And our honourable home minister himself
37:46Has very clearly
37:48In the most clearest manner
37:50Explained to the whole country
37:52That not even one state will be losing states
37:54And we will ensure that
37:56There is constitutionally guaranteed justice
37:58Which will be given to each of the states
38:00So there is no question of anybody losing states
38:02Then let the census be over
38:04As I said you know
38:06You've heard different shades of political opinion
38:08I don't want to weigh in one way or the other
38:10It's a very contentious issue
38:12What's required is clarity
38:14What's also required is to say that
38:16A lot of this debate is premature
38:18Because we haven't had the census
38:20The census by itself is at least a year
38:22If not a two year exercise
38:24Once the census happens only then will
38:26Delimitation start so we are very far away
38:28And while elections in Tamil Nadu
38:30Are next April and May
38:32It will not happen in time for the elections
38:34But it's a good bogey, it's a good smoke alarm bell to ring
38:36And therefore just have this smoke
38:38Create that fear
38:40Saravanan denies it but that's frankly what's at play
38:42And ultimately it will be a political issue
38:44In Tamil Nadu which the BJP
38:46Will need to deal with
38:48They want to make it Rahul
38:50And that's what politics is about
38:52They have sensed an opportunity
38:54He is trying to whip it up
38:56And now it's for the BJP and the government to counter that
38:58We are happy when Mr. Chandrababu Naidu
39:00Is on our side
39:02You have to understand
39:04Chandrababu Naidu is always by the side of the people
39:06He is not on anyone's side
39:08I am out of time on this debate
39:10You heard different shades of opinion
39:12As always I don't tell you what to think
39:14I draw out different shades of political views
39:16And I leave it to you our viewers to decide
39:18Whether this is premature
39:20Whether it's good to raise the bogey at the moment
39:22So that you build enough pressure
39:24So that the rules are framed in a way
39:26That there is some consensus on which
39:28The debate over Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb
39:30Is getting fiercer
39:32Maharashtra Samajwadi Party MLA
39:34Abu Azmi has been suspended
39:36From the state assembly
39:38After he said that the Mughal ruler
39:40Was not cruel
39:42Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath
39:44Has waded into this controversy
39:46Yogi Adityanath said that the SP
39:48Should send Abu Azmi to Uttar Pradesh
39:50Where he will be treated
39:52For his love for the tyrant
40:04The face off over Aurangzeb escalates
40:08SP MLA Abu Azmi
40:10Was suspended from the Maharashtra assembly
40:12For claiming Aurangzeb
40:14Was not a cruel ruler
40:18Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath
40:20Flayed the SP MLA
40:22For glorifying Aurangzeb
40:48Yogi challenged Akhilesh Yadav
40:50To expel Abu Azmi from the party
40:52And condemn his remarks
41:14SP Chief Akhilesh Yadav
41:16Led his weight to Abu Azmi
41:18Claiming his suspension
41:20Was done on the basis of ideology
41:24Abu Azmi cried foul over his suspension
41:26Calling it grave injustice
41:28Against him
41:46If there is a dictatorship
41:48In the government of Pandey
41:50And Eknath Sindhi
41:52If there is no democracy
41:54In this government
41:56Then I can do whatever I want
42:10The statement made about Aurangzeb
42:12Was made to help someone
42:14The BJP was in trouble
42:16At Vidhan Sabha yesterday
42:18Against Dhananjay Munde
42:20The opposition was about to attack
42:22There was an attack
42:24To distract the attention
42:26An order came from the BJP
42:28To Abu Azmi
42:30Give a statement
42:32That we will also create a ruckus
42:34We will also give a speech
42:36And the whole atmosphere will deteriorate
42:38So he gave a speech on Aurangzeb
42:44Abu Azmi
42:46Chhatrapati
43:10Her father is a top cop
43:12In Karnataka
43:14The daughter meanwhile
43:16Has been caught smuggling gold
43:18It's a scandal that has stunned the nation
43:20Kannada film actor Rania Rao
43:22Was arrested at Bengaluru's international airport
43:24For attempting to smuggle
43:2614.2 kilograms of gold
43:28Worth over 12.5 crore rupees
43:30From Dubai
43:32Rania is the step daughter of IPS officer Ramachandra Rao
43:34Who currently serves as the
43:36Director General of Police
43:38At the Karnataka State Police Housing Corporation
43:40Here are the details
43:50Father a Karnataka top cop
43:52Daughter allegedly
43:54Caught smuggling gold
43:58This is Kannada actor Rania Rao
44:00Gold bars worth over
44:0212 crore rupees were seized
44:04From her at the Bengaluru airport
44:06Late on Monday
44:08She is the step daughter
44:10Of IPS officer Ramachandra Rao
44:12Who is currently serving as
44:14DGP of Housing Corporation
44:16In Karnataka
44:38I'll be simply speculating
44:40If I have to say something
44:42According to the details
44:44Accessed by India Today
44:46Rania travelled to Dubai
44:48Four times in 15 days with her husband
44:50She concealed gold bars
44:52In her clothes
44:54Rania was also wearing a significant portion of gold
44:56The gold bars were hidden
44:58In her jacket
45:00Rania Rao allegedly used her influence
45:02To bypass security
45:04And evaded custom checks by airport officials
45:08It is also believed
45:10That Rania Rao travelled to Dubai
45:1230 times last year
45:14And brought back several kilos of gold
45:16She used to earn
45:1812-13 lakh rupees per trip
45:20But her father
45:22Who is currently serving as top cop
45:24In Karnataka
45:26Claims that he was unaware
45:28Of her daughter's crimes
45:30Meanwhile BJP is questioning
45:32Police's involvement in the case
45:34If it is true
45:36This is a total misuse
45:38Of police power
45:40I think the government
45:42Should take stern action on this
45:44And the concerned authorities
45:46Will surely do justice
45:48In this matter
45:50Rania Rao has been sent
45:52To judicial custody for 14 days
45:54During the investigation
45:56She claimed that she was blackmailed
45:58Into smuggling gold
46:00Officials are now looking into
46:02Whether she was a single individual
46:04Acting as a gold mule
46:06Or if she was part of a smuggling network
46:08Operating between Dubai and India
46:10With Sagai Raj in Bengaluru
46:12Bureau report India Today
46:34Rania Rao
46:36Rania Rao