Samajwadi Party leader Abu Azmi was suspended from the Maharashtra Assembly for the remainder of the session for praising Aurangzeb. While the condemnation of Abu Azmi's remarks is right, is his suspension justified? Expert debate with Preeti Choudhry on To The Point.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point, I'm Preeti Chaudhary, we have two debates
00:05lined up for you.
00:06Before we introduce you to that, first up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:13Yogi Adityanath wades into the Aurangzeb row, Samajwadi Party Neta Abu Azmi suspended from
00:18Maharashtra Assembly after he praises Aurangzeb.
00:21Stalin rallies all Tamil Nadu parties for meat on delimitation, seeks joint action
00:48Kamal Haasan slants enters as why interfere in a state's right.
00:55Kannada actor and DGP rank officer's stepdaughter Rania Rao caught smuggling gold worth 12 crores
01:02from Dubai.
01:03Actor caught with 14 kilograms of gold sent to judicial custody.
01:12Politics erupts as Kejriwal arrives for 10-day vipassana in Punjab in a massive cavalcade.
01:19BJP and Congress call out his Khas Abni status.
01:30Trump hailed Zelensky for his letter seeking peace with Russia, says Ukraine ready to negotiate
01:35wants peace, says Russia, Ukraine peace would be beautiful.
01:45Aussie legend Steve Smith retires from ODIs after champion trophy exit, Steve Smith to
01:50continue playing tests and T20s.
02:00Top story, the Aurangzeb narrative keeps spinning on, viewers.
02:04Now a big political face-off, you have the CM of Uttar Pradesh Yogi Adityanath who went
02:10out all against the Samajwadi party for glorifying a tyrant and questioning the Mahakam.
02:16On the other hand, Abu Azmi now finds himself suspended from the Maharashtra Assembly.
02:24The Samajwadi party and other allies backing him other than the Uddhav Sehna.
02:39The face-off over Aurangzeb escalates, SP MLA Abu Azmi was suspended from the Maharashtra
02:48Assembly for claiming Aurangzeb was not a cruel ruler.
02:54Uttar Pradesh CM Yogi Adityanath flayed the Samajwadi party MLA for glorifying Aurangzeb.
03:00Yogi challenged Akhilesh Yadav to expel Abu Azmi from the party and condemn his remarks.
03:30SP Chief Akhilesh Yadav led his weight to Abu Azmi, claiming his suspension was done
03:56on the basis of ideology.
03:59Abu Azmi cried foul over his suspension, calling it grave injustice against him.
04:29While the Shiv Sena UBT hurled a beating charge at the suspended MLA, accusing him
04:40of praising Aurangzeb at the BJP's behest.
05:10The party hit the streets against Azmi's remarks.
05:24Azmi's comments on Aurangzeb exploded as a political issue in Maharashtra after Deputy
05:29CM Eknath Shinde described the SP MLA's statement as treason.
05:35Clearly, the Mahawar over Aurangzeb is far from over.
05:40Bureau report, India Today.
06:35The BJP has been glorifying Nathuram Godse, the murderer of Mahatma Gandhi, the father
06:43of the nation.
06:44It wasn't just a political assassination, it was the father of the nation.
06:49Not just many inside the assembly, Nitesh Rane for one, but many outside the assembly
06:53as well.
06:54Taking you through some who have gone ahead, glorified, praised, eulogized Nathuram Godse,
07:00but no real action has been taken.
07:02One of them, Abhijit Gangopadhyay, BJP MP, cannot choose between Gandhi and Godse.
07:07Giriraj Singh, who said, he's a BJP minister, he said, if he is Gandhi's killer, he's also
07:14India's support, a good son.
07:16Sadhvi Pragya, many remember that controversy, finally she came up with a half-hearted apology,
07:22but no real action was taken.
07:23Nathuram Godse is a true patriot, she had said.
07:26Stalin Kumar Kapil, BJP MP, Godse killed only one person, Rajiv Gandhi killed 17,000.
07:34Anand Kumar Hegde, you know, the list can go on, and if action has been taken by a state
07:40assembly to suspend someone for glorification of a tyrant, should action have also been
07:46taken for glorification of the murderer of the father of the nation?
07:50Well, this is one point.
07:52The other point also, action hasn't been taken where the most despicable words have been
07:57used on the floor of the assembly, and it's happened in Parliament by no one else but
08:02Ramesh Biduri.
08:03We don't want to get into what he said, because the words were despicable even to mouth them,
08:08and they've been expunged, so one can't even do that.
08:11So at the back, was action taken against him?
08:15He was later then rewarded with a ticket to fight the Delhi Assembly elections.
08:22Was he suspended in Parliament?
08:23No.
08:24So at the back of that, the question that I asked this evening, question one, action
08:29against Aurangzeb glorification, correcting historical wrong?
08:35The second question that we ask, suspension for Aurangzeb praisers while Godse apologists
08:41get a free run, hypocrisy their viewers?
08:44The third question that we ask this evening, selective suspension, doesn't it depict political
08:50hypocrisy?
08:51I want to take these questions to our panellists this evening, joining me, Sanju Verma, National
08:56Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party.
08:58I have Ghanshyam Tiwari, Spokesperson, Samajwadi Party, Rajat Sethi, Political Commentator,
09:03Neerja Choudhury, Senior Journalist and Columnist.
09:05We're going to break this into parts.
09:07First, we're going to focus on the comments on Aurangzeb and the suspension of Abu Azmi
09:15on it.
09:16And then we're going to go on to how you have now the UP Chief Minister who picked up the
09:21matter in the UP Assembly.
09:23So it's becoming a narrative in UP as well, just a day after Sambal was a point of concern.
09:28But to bring in our guest this morning, I want to cut across first to Sanju Verma.
09:32Sanju Verma, you know, one would suggest it's perfect to condemn a tyrant, one should, if
09:38there has been glorification, and there have been, there have been roads named after him,
09:42that should have never happened, you're correcting a historical wrong, perfect.
09:45But to suspend somebody from the Assembly on what he said, when you have allowed many
09:51who continue to sit in the Assembly, Nitesh Rane for one, who glorified Godse in the past,
09:57and you know, Nathuram Godse is the murderer of the father of the nation.
10:01So would you think there's a tad bit of hypocrisy there?
10:05You know, Preeti, first and foremost, let's get one thing very clear.
10:09Under the Constitution, which is what is being bandied about by every leader from the opposition,
10:14that same Constitution gives powers to the Speaker under Article 93, 94, 95, and 96.
10:22The Speaker is the presiding officer of the House.
10:24The Speaker has the powers and the prerogative to suspend a member if he chooses to do so.
10:30So Rahul Narvekar, the Speaker of the Maharashtra Assembly, chose to suspend Abu Azmi, and I
10:36applaud Rahul Narvekar's decision.
10:38Point number one, there is nothing unconstitutional about what Rahul Narvekar has done.
10:43He's simply reading out from the playbook or the holy grail called the Constitution
10:48of India.
10:49The second point, you gave examples in your introductory comments about Giriraj Singh,
10:55the likes of Sadhvi Pragya, and Narendra Modi, and Ramesh Biduri, as the national spokesperson
11:00of the BJP.
11:01Whenever I have been asked a question and I represent my party, I have always condemned
11:07incendiary, provocative statements, be it Ramesh Biduri or from Giriraj Singh, what
11:13have you.
11:14But what I don't understand is this hypocrisy.
11:17When the topic of discussion is about Abu Azmi glorifying Aurangzeb, suddenly what do
11:23we see media doing?
11:25They go back to Nathuram Godse, Nathuram Godse par debate ho chukki hai, Giriraj Singh ko
11:30aapne condemn kar chukki hai, Ramesh Biduri par debate ho chukki hai.
11:35When there was a debate on Ramesh Biduri, nobody spoke about Abu Azmi, whereas Abu Azmi
11:40is prone to making incendiary and defamatory statements at the drop of a hat.
11:45When Giriraj Singh made statements which were not kosher, debate ho chukki hai.
11:50By your logic, let me say one thing.
11:52When Abu Azmi knew that this session is underway, what was the need to make this provocative
11:59statement?
12:00And then he says, without so much as, you know, shedding a droplet of remorse or regret,
12:06he goes on to say, maine koi dalat thodi kaha.
12:09Jo itihaskaro ne likha hai, maine toh itihaskaro ki baat kahi hai.
12:14Aur meri statement ko logon ne thod par aur diya hai, ten seconds more.
12:18I would urge through your show, illiterates like Abu Azmi to read Masare Alam Giri by
12:25Mushtaq Khan and the history of Aurangzeb chronicled wonderfully well by Sir Jadunath
12:31Sarkar, where he says that the most brutal reign of the Mughal Empire was under Aurangzeb
12:37who not only beheaded Dara Shikoh, his brother, and handed him on a platter to Shah Jahan
12:42before imprisoning his own father Shah Jahan, but also imprisoned his own daughter.
12:48Sanjay Verma, I'll come back to you.
12:50Okay, Sanjay Verma, I'll circle back to you.
12:52I want to open up the panelists.
12:53But, you know, what my opening remarks, nobody questioned the constitutionality of it.
12:56The speaker in his very right can suspend whoever he wants and he has done so.
13:00Nobody's questioning the constitutionality of it.
13:02On the other hand, you know, there was so much said about whataboutery, but sometimes
13:06whataboutery is essential as a journalist to bring up action taken if it is partisan
13:10in nature.
13:11So, I think as a journalist, I have done my job in that context because a lot would be
13:16said about whataboutery, it is about this, this is about this, this should be spoken
13:18of, it should be spoken of.
13:20Should anyone who glorifies Aurangzeb be condemned?
13:23Definitely.
13:24Should Rhodes be named after him?
13:25Definitely not.
13:26But, should then those who glorify God's sake, those who use the most despicable language,
13:32some in parliament, should they be suspended?
13:35Of course.
13:36As a journalist, I'm supposed to do that.
13:38But Ghanshyam Tiwari, I want to bring you back into this, bring you into this conversation.
13:43Ghanshyam Tiwari, I really want to ask you, what in the world was Abu Azmi thinking?
13:47Many would actually agree, you know, with what the Shiv Sena UBT says, that he's played
13:53into the hands of the BJP beautifully when the Maharashtra Assembly was all about the
13:57murder that has taken place in Beed.
14:01Good evening, Preeti, to you, my fellow co-panellists and the viewers.
14:04The two quick answers is, I don't know what he was thinking.
14:07Two, that it is a fair criticism from various leaders that this plays into the hand of BJP.
14:13But the point is that what is the hand of BJP?
14:16Why is this hand important to BJP?
14:18I'll say three things.
14:19One, the Aurangzeb tyranny model is no different from Adityanath tyranny model.
14:24Where Aurangzeb bulldozed, Adityanath bulldozes.
14:27He committed atrocities, Adityanath commits atrocities.
14:29Ghanshyam Tiwari, may I just come in?
14:30I'm sorry I interrupt you.
14:31And the only reason, okay, I hate doing it and I apologise.
14:35But the only reason is, you know, you can criticise the Yogi Adityanath model on its own right,
14:40but you're actually trying to compare an Aurangzeb to Yogi Adityanath.
14:43I think that's an unfair comparison.
14:45And you agree, I'm sure.
14:46It's a very unfair comparison in the form of the brutality that Aurangzeb...
14:52Come on.
14:54Okay, go ahead, make your point, make your point.
14:56It is a fair criticism, but I'll still make my point.
14:58The models are not no different.
15:00The scale can be different.
15:01Both bulldoze structures.
15:02Both use religion as the foundation of their leadership.
15:06Both committed atrocities and were unaccountable.
15:09Both disrespected elders.
15:11To this point, at a different scale, the models are no different.
15:15The main point is, why is this in hand important to BJP?
15:19BJP from Sambal to Aurangzeb is right now trying to ensure that bringing a 400-year-old man,
15:27a man who died 320 years ago,
15:29into the center stage of Indian debate is because of many things.
15:33Since September 27, 2024, 94 lakh crore of investor wealth has been wiped off.
15:39Two friends of Prime Minister, I'm not talking about Mr. Adani,
15:42Xi Jinping and Mr. Trump,
15:45has been at India's case, making India's business environment weaker.
15:49Can I just get Ghanshyam Tiwari, ma'am?
15:54Because there are three people, I don't have the timer, but I am keeping time.
15:58Ghanshyam Tiwari, you have 20 more seconds. Make your point, sir.
16:01BJP desperately needs the ghost of a man who died 320 years ago.
16:05And final point, if this is the standard for hate speech for BJP,
16:09the India Hate Lab says that 1,165 hate speeches were documented.
16:1580% in BJP-ruled state.
16:17340 of those events were organized by BJP.
16:20So BJP is the reigning champion across the world on hate speech.
16:23Tiwari, I'm going to cut you on that. I want to bring in Rajat Sethi into this conversation.
16:26And I'll circle back to you, Sanju.
16:28Verma, you'll get all the time, or equal time, rather.
16:31But Rajat Sethi, the fact is, there is a huge train of thought now,
16:37which seem to suggest it's time to correct the wrongs of history
16:40and to eulogize and glorify a figure who's not just deeply controversial.
16:44And now, you know, the more that we are talking about it,
16:47the more understandably the anger is.
16:49But with what went down in the assembly,
16:51would you reckon, to speak, you're not even speaking in assembly,
16:55outside, a comment praising a tyrant, yes?
16:59Should somebody be suspended on those grounds?
17:02When so many people get away with, you know, if I,
17:05not murder, but, you know, words which are very strong.
17:11Preeti ji, you're again bringing Godse back in.
17:14My point is this Godse business started with your tweet, I suppose.
17:18And this is a strawman.
17:20No, no, please hold it.
17:22It is a fallacy.
17:24It's a logical fallacy to try and attack your opponents
17:27where you feel perhaps that they are weaker,
17:29so that you ignore the core argument of what Abu Azmi said
17:33and what were the merits or demerits of him.
17:35You're trying to train your guns on the BJP,
17:38which is not fair, especially with regards to the current topic of discussion.
17:43Now, having said that, what Abu Azmi did,
17:47why, what would have triggered his mind?
17:49Was he trying to dog whistle to a specific community?
17:52What was he trying when he was trying to eulogize Aurangzeb?
17:56Aurangzeb and the history around it,
17:58and many such histories of foreign invaders who came in,
18:02came in, attacked, butchered our civilization,
18:05wounded our civilization.
18:06Those wounds have run pretty deep.
18:08They're still there.
18:09I mean, we haven't addressed those wounds in its entirety.
18:11The more we are trying to explore,
18:13the more we are trying to unravel it, unfold it,
18:16the greater the atrocities of this man is coming to the surface.
18:20What on earth is this politician trying to say and do?
18:23Whom is he trying to dog whistle through his commentary?
18:27I genuinely want to understand what triggered his whole outburst
18:32around and in support of Aurangzeb.
18:35And I'm telling you this, you know, this question,
18:37lot of people through your audience will continue to ask,
18:40why is India still stuck in the past?
18:42Because genuinely, as a wounded civilization,
18:45it will be till those wounds are not completely erased
18:49by knowing every aspect of it, every fact of it.
18:51We will continue to speak about it.
18:53Look at what the Jews do.
18:55Till date, they are making movies out of every single atrocity
18:59that Hitler did on their community.
19:01You don't ask them that question.
19:03Why are you talking about Hitler repeatedly after 60 years?
19:06Similarly, we will continue to talk about the atrocities
19:10that Aurangzeb continued doing.
19:13We occupy every platform to paint him in his truest picture.
19:17Fair point. There is no problem one should talk about.
19:20One should talk about a tyrant.
19:22One should talk about if he's been represented in a wrong way.
19:26You made a statement that I'm looking to attack a political party.
19:29No, I'm just doing my business as a journalist.
19:31You are meant to question.
19:33And I, as a journalist, I am allowed and meant to question
19:37the establishment if there is action which is taken,
19:40which is seemingly partisan.
19:42That's it. Because you've not taken action.
19:44You know, when you talk about Godse,
19:46Godse is not just a murderer.
19:48He's the murderer of the father of the nation.
19:50So anyone who's going to go ahead and praise Godse or glorify Godse,
19:53I would reckon should be suspended.
19:55He's not suspended. That's it.
19:57Ma'am, I'm just going to move forward.
19:59I'm coming back to you, Sanju Varma.
20:01I'm just going to our next topic and we can go back into it.
20:03Just want to flip it over to what happened in the Maharashtra Assembly
20:07resounded in the Uttar Pradesh Assembly.
20:09And that was Yogi Adityanath who used what Abu Azmi said
20:14and then the suspension of Abu Azmi
20:17and then on top of it, you have the Samajwadi Party
20:20who came out to defend Abu Azmi.
20:22Well, Yogi Adityanath said this today in the UP Assembly.
20:39He was slandering India.
20:42Yes, those who have the same attitude as Aurangzeb,
20:45they will immediately glorify Aurangzeb.
20:48But at least India should not be affected by this
20:51and the Samajwadi Party should be held accountable for this.
20:54The leader of the Samajwadi Party, your leader,
20:57you should make an announcement.
20:59Get that scoundrel out of the party.
21:03And send him to UP once more.
21:05We'll get the rest of the treatment done ourselves.
21:07I live in the country. I haven't said anything like this.
21:10Now Yogi Ji has a government.
21:12Pandeyji has a government.
21:14And Eknath Sindhi has a government.
21:16If there is a dictatorship in this government,
21:18there is no democracy,
21:21then I can do whatever I want.
21:25Alright, so today if it was Aurangzeb
21:28that echoed on the floor of the UP Assembly,
21:30yesterday it was Sambal that echoed on the floor of the UP Assembly.
21:33Listen to Yogi Adityanath.
21:36In Sambal alone,
21:40there were sixty-six pilgrims
21:43and nineteen UPs
21:47who were put to an end
21:50in a certain period of time
21:52by mischief.
21:54To find fifty-four out of sixty-eight pilgrims,
21:58this is a part of our heritage.
22:01And we did the same.
22:03We have said that
22:06we should get what is ours.
22:12We are not going anywhere beyond that.
22:33BJP politics before 2027 elections.
22:40And can the BJP sustain the polarization pitch till 2027?
22:45I'll take you back, viewers, to 2024.
22:47You had the Ram Mandir in January.
22:49Everyone thought BJP will sweep UP.
22:51But that momentum wasn't quite sustained.
22:53The final question, no matter what,
22:55can Akhilesh's PDA factor
22:58actually cut Yogi's Hindutva?
23:01We'll cut across back to our panelists.
23:03Sanju Verma, to begin with you again,
23:05it does seem that you have at one end Sambal,
23:09you have Aurangzeb,
23:10you have Katenge Batenge.
23:12One would think that it's Yogi Adityanath
23:14doubling down on Hindutva
23:16and we're actually laying the road to 2027.
23:19We also introduce in the panel...
23:21One second, Sanju Verma,
23:22allow me to introduce Neerja Choudhury,
23:24senior journalist who's also joining us.
23:26Go ahead, Sanju Verma.
23:28No, I mean, you can ask...
23:30Neerja ji the question first,
23:32if that is fine.
23:34I mean, I'm very...
23:35Very kind, Sanju Verma,
23:36but go ahead, I'll go back to her.
23:39Okay.
23:40So, you know, Preeti,
23:41I have one thing to say.
23:42You know, I love coming on your shows
23:45and you have every right
23:46to question people as an anchor.
23:48You have to speak truth to power.
23:50You have to question the establishment.
23:52But what we don't like is
23:53you talk about Giriraj Singh,
23:56you talk about Ramesh B. Doody,
23:58you talk about Sadhvi Pragya.
24:00In the same breath,
24:01you should also have said
24:03that there was a man
24:04when questioned about
24:06the anti-Sikh genocide
24:08which left more than 30,000 Sikhs homeless,
24:11more than 3,000 Sikhs
24:13were burnt, set on fire
24:15and burnt to death.
24:16When Rajiv Gandhi was questioned,
24:18he said,
24:23And the closest confidant of the Gandhis,
24:25Sam Pitroda said,
24:29So, if you talk about Giriraj Singh,
24:31speak about this man, Hua To Hua,
24:33who epitomizes
24:34what the Gandhi dynasty stands for.
24:36He calls South Indians as Africans
24:38and East Indians as Chinese.
24:40This is the same Congress party
24:42which still did.
24:43Says that the Kashmir genocide
24:46of Kashmiri Pandits in 1990s
24:49did not happen.
24:50This is the same Congress's
24:52alliance partner,
24:53Samajwadi Party,
24:54which refuses to acknowledge
24:56that more than 184 people
24:59were killed
25:00in the 1978 Sambhal riots.
25:03Not 24 people,
25:05which is what Akhilesh Yadav
25:06and before that his father,
25:08Mulayam Singh Yadav,
25:09would have us believe.
25:11So, please don't be partisan.
25:13Question Akhilesh Yadav
25:15on Sambhal riots,
25:17on the Muzaffarnagar riots,
25:18on the Varanasi Bombay,
25:20after which he went to
25:21Allahabad High Court
25:22and said,
25:27Now coming back to Yogi Adityanath,
25:29if you're sitting here and saying
25:31that Yogi Adityanath embodies
25:33what Aurangzeb was
25:35336 years back,
25:37let me just tell the Samajwadi Party,
25:39be it the Lucknow-Kanpur Expressway,
25:43be it the upcoming Noida Airport,
25:45be it the Ganga Expressway,
25:47be it the Yamuna Link,
25:49be it the Bundelkhand Expressway,
25:52be it the Purvanchal Expressway,
25:54all these have come to fruition
25:57or will come to fruition
25:58under the leadership of Yogi Adityanath,
26:00not to mention that
26:02with more than 65 crore people
26:04attending the Mahatma,
26:06more than 1.7% will be added
26:09to Uttar Pradesh's GDP alone
26:11in what is being celebrated
26:12as the world's largest gathering
26:14of humanity.
26:16Please talk about that freely.
26:18Have you once congratulated
26:19Yogi Adityanath? No.
26:22Sanju Verma, you know,
26:23today you are angry.
26:24You were on my show
26:25where we did the wrap-up
26:26on the Kumbh.
26:28You have short memory, ma'am.
26:29Either you're working too hard,
26:31you have short memory.
26:32But I'm going to come...
26:37I will, okay,
26:38I will send you the show
26:40that we did on the culmination
26:41of the Kumbh.
26:43But like I said,
26:44I will come...
26:45Ma'am, it's not an argument
26:46between you and I.
26:47Why do you make it?
26:48It's not supposed to be.
26:49Your criticism...
26:50Sanju Verma...
26:51Your problem is you don't like
26:52to be questioned.
26:53I have a right to question you
26:54as a panelist.
26:55One second.
26:56You are welcome.
26:57Sanju Verma,
26:58I want to go to my other guest.
26:59You are always welcome
27:00to criticize or question me.
27:02I might not agree with you,
27:03but I will give you the platform
27:05to say what you want to.
27:06Now allow me to give
27:08the same space to somebody else.
27:11Can I please get in
27:12Neerja Choudhury
27:13into this conversation,
27:14Neerja Choudhury,
27:15with what we're witnessing,
27:16especially where the cult
27:17of Yogi Adityanath is concerned.
27:19Are we looking at now,
27:21going all the way to 27,
27:23that Yogi Adityanath
27:25is only going to strengthen
27:26the Hindutva narrative,
27:28at least till now,
27:29that is what we are
27:30seemingly witnessing?
27:31I think yes.
27:33You know,
27:34it will be very interesting,
27:35but certainly,
27:36I would say it's a big thing
27:37to say the countdown
27:38for the UP elections
27:39in 2027 has begun
27:41and has begun with the Mahakum.
27:43And I think we probably
27:44haven't fully understood
27:46what made such a large
27:48number of people go there.
27:50Is it only hype?
27:51Now we can question
27:52the figures
27:54and say,
27:55you know, okay,
27:56I don't,
27:57many people are skeptical.
27:58Did half of India land up there?
27:59But suppose even one-fifth
28:01of the 65 crore people went.
28:03That is a very huge number.
28:05And did they go only
28:06because of hype?
28:07Did they go only,
28:08you know,
28:09it's going to be something
28:10that's going to come
28:11once in 144 years?
28:12Is it because the others
28:13were going?
28:14Is it because of curiosity?
28:15Or is there something
28:17deeper than that?
28:18And I think we haven't,
28:19I feel one has to understand
28:21much more deeply,
28:22number one,
28:23you know,
28:24this identifying
28:25and feeling proud
28:27to be a Hindu.
28:28So what is the impact
28:30this is going to have
28:31on our politics?
28:32That is the question.
28:33Will people vote
28:34because they went to Mahakum?
28:36Of course,
28:37you can always say that
28:38the Ayodhya temple
28:39was opened in January 2024,
28:41but BJP lost Ayodhya
28:43as a seat.
28:44So we don't know
28:45how the voter votes.
28:46It is too early to say that,
28:48but Hindutva is only one card.
28:50I think Yogi Adityanath
28:52and BJP will play.
28:53The other thing, of course,
28:55Yogi Adityanath
28:56has the whole machinery
28:57of the BJP.
28:58He has Narendra Modi's persona
29:01and Narendra Modi will,
29:03you know,
29:04UP is going to be very critical
29:05because it's going to set
29:06that tone and tenor
29:07for the 2029 elections
29:09and Yogi Adityanath's
29:11own personal following
29:13independent of the BJP
29:16and also what he has done
29:18on the law and order front,
29:20which everybody talks about in UP,
29:22of course,
29:23and the caste lineups.
29:24All these are going to be factors
29:26in the 2027 battle
29:28and I think,
29:29as I say,
29:30early days,
29:31what Samajwadi Party,
29:32will it get a new narrative
29:33which it needs to put in place,
29:35its alliance with the Congress Party,
29:37how the Congress Party shapes up.
29:39So many things will come into play,
29:41but certainly already
29:43they have an eye on this,
29:45as I say,
29:46you know,
29:47this is the jugular
29:48that they have to go for.
29:49Next year will belong
29:50to the southern states,
29:51but 2027 is going to belong to UP.
29:55All right.
29:56Ghanshyam Tiwari,
29:57the PDA,
29:58which you have coined,
29:59you know,
30:00many would thought
30:01you've tried to make it the PDA,
30:02but ultimately it was,
30:03you know,
30:04what we also discussed yesterday,
30:05the MY factor.
30:06You've turned it into a PDA.
30:07Can it actually cut through,
30:09you know,
30:10the strong Hindutva narrative
30:11which is already being built?
30:13I don't believe that hate
30:15can be foundation of a narrative.
30:17What Adityanath did in Sambhal,
30:20when in the parliament,
30:22MP after MP across party lines
30:24stood up and said that
30:25BJP government in Uttar Pradesh,
30:27Adityanath is responsible
30:28for murderous conspiracy in Sambhal
30:31that killed five people.
30:32Not one BJP MP stood up
30:34and countered it.
30:36Not one.
30:37The Prime Minister was there,
30:38the Home Minister was there.
30:39So when a Chief Minister
30:41is not being supported
30:43by his own MPs,
30:44because everybody knows that,
30:45then the foundation of hate is exposed.
30:48I compared the Adityanath model
30:50to the Aurangzeb model.
30:51UP ranks number one
30:53in the custodial deaths.
30:55UP ranked number one
30:56in encounters, fake encounters.
30:58UP ranked number one
30:59on atrocities on civil society.
31:01You name it
31:02and UP will rank number one,
31:04crime against women,
31:05in general crime.
31:06So how will a government
31:08that is losing its grip on economy,
31:10where as I said,
31:1194 lakh crore of carnage
31:13has happened in less than six months,
31:15going to get a grip
31:16when two friends of Mr. Modi,
31:18not Adani and Amani,
31:19but Mr. Xi Jinping and Trump
31:22are weakening India's case.
31:24I don't think Adityanath
31:26with zero grip on economy,
31:28with this band bazaar
31:29that UP will be
31:30a one trillion dollar economy in 2027.
31:32That is what he is saying.
31:34I don't think that all BJPs...
31:37Not at all.
31:38I think if hate is a foundation of a government,
31:40then it is...
31:42Okay, I want to bring in Rajat Sethi
31:44for a quick comment on this.
31:45Rajat Sethi, what do you think
31:46that the Yogi Adityanath government
31:48or Yogi Adityanath himself
31:49has learned from that brief setback
31:51of 2024 in UP?
31:54I think he has understood
31:56that there has to be a greater
31:58sort of connect
31:59with what the voters aspire
32:01and where his governance is.
32:03And he has worked very strongly
32:05to bridge those gaps
32:06wherever he could.
32:07And I think this is where
32:08the small window of opportunity
32:10that perhaps Samajwadi Party
32:11would have smelled
32:12has been completely shut, it seems.
32:14I don't see them
32:15just with this MY kind of a formula
32:18and not making an outreach
32:20to the larger communities
32:22in Uttar Pradesh.
32:23They can actually stitch
32:24a winnable alliance.
32:25The problem with
32:26either RJD in Bihar
32:28or with Akhilesh Adav in UP
32:30is that they can only reach
32:31with this kind of formula
32:33of caste and community
32:34only to a level.
32:35And then on top of that
32:36you have people like Abu Azmi
32:37who will ensure
32:38that the remaining 80%
32:40do not ally with a party
32:41who stands symbolically
32:43with somebody who is seen
32:44as the biggest symbol
32:46of atrocities
32:47against the entire Hindu community.
32:48As long as that is there,
32:50you can be rest assured
32:51that Yogi is going to
32:52come back into power.
32:53Okay.
32:54I apologize.
32:55I have all the time
32:56that there was
32:57in this particular debate.
32:58We are going to spin over
32:59to our second debate.
33:00Appreciate all our panelists
33:01for joining us.
33:02Sanju Verma stays back
33:03for our debate number two.
33:33Nothing wrong in meditation.
33:35But why?
33:36A 20-car cavalcade
33:38questions the BJP.
33:52Up hits back.
34:04Aam Aadmi Party
34:05in cavalcade controversy.
34:07On To The Point this evening.
34:14All right.
34:15Let's begin with two-minute seats
34:16for our face-off this evening.
34:17Sanju Verma,
34:18National Spokesperson BJP.
34:19Dr. Sunny Singh Aluwalia,
34:20Spokesperson Aam Aadmi Party.
34:21Dr. Aluwalia,
34:22there's a point that the BJP makes.
34:2423 cars.
34:25And that's what our reporters
34:26counted in that cavalcade
34:28which escorted the former
34:30Delhi Chief Minister
34:31to Vipassana.
34:32Nothing wrong in meditation.
34:34But why was the need
34:35of the cavalcade?
35:03Supremo.
35:04In Delhi and elsewhere.
35:05Now,
35:06if the Bharatiya Janta Party
35:07has a problem,
35:08their spokesperson
35:09has a problem,
35:10they directly withdraw
35:11the Z Plus security cover
35:12from Arvind Kejriwal ji?
35:13Is this a point
35:14what they are saying?
35:15Whether the Arvind Kejriwal,
35:16the former Chief Minister
35:17of Delhi,
35:18is under any security threat?
35:19Yes or no?
35:20And how many cars,
35:21if he even go to Gujarat,
35:22the security cover
35:23will be provided to him?
35:24But Bharatiya Janta Party
35:25has a problem.
35:26They directly withdraw
35:27the Z Plus security cover
35:28from Arvind Kejriwal ji?
35:29Is this a point
35:30what they are saying?
35:31Bharatiya Janta Party,
35:32rather than doing
35:33some good work
35:34in newly,
35:35you know,
35:36formed government
35:37in Delhi,
35:38after giving
35:39free cylinders
35:40on Holi
35:41or providing
35:422500 rupees
35:43as announced
35:44by the honourable
35:45Prime Minister,
35:46they are not saying
35:47anything about that.
35:48And who is criticising?
35:49Who is criticising?
35:50What is the problem
35:51when a Chief Minister,
35:52ex-former Chief Minister
35:53is under the threat?
35:54They don't understand
35:55the security threat.
35:56They don't understand
35:57the security threat.
35:58They don't understand
35:59the security threat.
36:00They don't understand
36:01the simple things
36:02and what they are trying
36:03to say.
36:04The Ministry of Home Affairs,
36:05they give us a letter
36:06that he doesn't need
36:07any security.
36:08He is a simple man.
36:09He is travelling
36:10in his own car.
36:11He is not travelling
36:12in any land cruisers.
36:13As said by their,
36:14you know,
36:15their ministers,
36:16what they are trying
36:17to prove.
36:18Just see the car
36:19in which Arvind Kejriwal ji
36:20is travelling.
36:21That car belongs
36:22to whom?
36:23That car doesn't belong
36:24to Punjab government.
36:25That neither
36:26is a bulletproof car.
36:27That is provided
36:28the car
36:29to any land cruiser
36:30or whatever
36:31they are saying.
36:32It is all, you know,
36:33they are just
36:34making the things.
36:35They are just trying
36:36to prove
36:37that Arvind Kejriwal
36:38is misusing the power.
36:39It is not the fact.
36:40The fact is that
36:41we have...
36:42Alright, so hard cut.
36:43Hard cut.
36:44I want to bring in
36:45Sanju Verma.
36:46Sanju Verma,
36:47there is a threat perception
36:48on Arvind Kejriwal.
36:49It's by the MHA.
36:50He's been accorded
36:51earlier a Z security.
36:52Sunny Singh Aluwalia
36:53says now
36:54with Z plus security.
36:55I will just give you
36:56the details
36:57of what Z security is.
36:58It's 255 police personnel
36:59if it's Z plus security
37:00including 4 to 6
37:01CAPF commandos.
37:02Otherwise,
37:03it's 20 NSG commandos
37:04if it's Z plus security.
37:05Arvind Kejriwal
37:06has Z security
37:07which now seemingly
37:08is up to Z plus security
37:09by the MHA itself.
37:10So why blame him?
37:11The security comes in
37:12from the MHA.
37:13Preeti,
37:14I have a great memory.
37:15You know,
37:16thanks for rejigging
37:17that by giving out
37:18details of Z security
37:19and Z plus.
37:20I really did not
37:21know that
37:22there is such
37:23a thing as Z security.
37:24I really did not
37:25know that
37:26there is such
37:27a thing as Z plus.
37:28I really did not
37:29need that.
37:30Let's get down
37:31to the brass tacks
37:32of what is currently
37:33underway.
37:34Punjab is
37:35highly indebted
37:36along with Tamil Nadu
37:37one of the most
37:38indebted states
37:39in India.
37:40The GSDP of Punjab
37:41is barely 8 lakh crore.
37:42And guess what?
37:43More than 4.5 lakh crore
37:44that is more than
37:4550 percent
37:46of the GSDP
37:47of the state
37:48is the debt
37:49of Punjab.
37:50The annual income
37:51of Punjab
37:52is less than
37:534.5 lakh crore.
37:54The GDP
37:55of Punjab
37:56is less than
37:5745 or 50 thousand
37:58crores.
37:59But the annual
38:00expenditure is
38:01more than
38:0295 thousand crore.
38:03And Arvind Kejriwal
38:04is enjoying
38:05at the expense
38:06of Punjab's
38:07taxpayers.
38:08Point number one.
38:09This is the same
38:10Kejriwal
38:11who said
38:12you know
38:13for the longest
38:14time
38:15you have to wear
38:16a shirt
38:17for 50 rupees
38:18a loose
38:19blouse
38:20a blue
38:21t-shirt
38:22you have to
38:23keep a 5
38:24rupee
38:25pin
38:26in the
38:27pocket
38:28of your
38:29purse.
38:30You know
38:31for the
38:32longest
38:33time
38:34you have
38:35to keep
38:36a 5
38:37rupee
38:38pin
38:39in the
38:40pocket
38:41of your
38:42purse.
38:43You know
38:44for the
38:45longest
38:46time
38:47you have
38:48to keep
38:49a 5
38:50rupee
38:51pin
38:52in the
38:53pocket
38:54his sheesh mahal with 5 crore marble tiles, 25 lakh ka television set, 85 lakh ka kamod
39:03and 90 lakh ke curtains.
39:05So the point is Arvind Kejriwal is corrupt, he is used to power and he is not misusing
39:11power here, he is abusing power and his bluff needs to be called out fair and square, Z
39:17security or no Z security does not matter.
39:21Alright, I'm giving 10 seconds each to the both of you to bring back the Aam Aadmi Party
39:26spokesperson.
39:27Dr. Sunny Singh Aluwalia, the question is yes Z security but with that was detailing
39:32a lot of the Punjab security as well.
39:34Why that is the question raised by Sanju Verma.
39:37Riti ji, definitely our sister, what she is saying that if on 7 December 2023, the RSS
39:46chief enters Punjab, under what cover he enters Punjab and how many security personnel
39:53was with him?
39:54This is a question why I'm saying that he was accompanied by two MLAs, he was accompanied
40:00by some chairmen.
40:01So whenever the person who is covering to Punjab, the security is provided from the
40:07MOH, Ministry of Health.
40:08Sir, stop, 30 seconds, I want to give the same 30 seconds to Sanju Verma, Sanju Verma,
40:13I only provided that detailing, not for you, but for our viewers, not many of them know
40:18what Z security is, but what has been alleged by the Aam Aadmi Party, each and every person
40:22on that security detail was from the MHA.
40:25You know, let's get one thing very clear, each and every person who was there in the
40:30detail was not from the MHA and what I want to establish here, because your audience is
40:35the biggest stakeholder in such debates, I'm talking about the priorities of Kejriwal,
40:4036 months, Aatish and Kejriwal's Darbhanis do dharna and do tor-for on the floor of the
40:48Gahi Assembly, when will the women of Delhi get Rs 2,500?
40:5236 months have passed, the women of Punjab are crying, they are begging for that Rs 1,000
40:59that Kejriwal had promised.
41:01Alright, that's all the time that I have for now, that's it, we're going to leave it at
41:05that, keen eye on all developments, no time, thank you for joining.