Co-hosts Rob Flis & WatchMojo founder Ashkan Karbasfrooshan chat about that fateful 1 million subs celebration, cut short by an early Mojo villain, Content ID.
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00:00This program might contain strong language if you think you may be offended, switch off
00:13now.
00:21Hello everybody, welcome back to the Inside Mojo podcast, where each week we highlight
00:26a key moment in WatchMojo's 20-year history on YouTube.
00:30I'm your host Rob, with me as always is our CEO and co-founder Ashkan Karbasrooshan, and
00:35today we're talking about one of the highest highs and lowest lows of WatchMojo, isn't
00:39that right?
00:40They go together, it's a pair, it's a tandem.
00:42Let's talk about the journey to 1 million subs.
00:46The long arduous journey, yeah I mean it took us what, 6-7 years?
00:51So I think during the 2010s it was like the period of like super serve your audience,
00:57go really niche or niche.
01:00But when YouTube started, I mean it was a bit of a free-for-all, and as we've discussed
01:05while there was obviously first like pirated content, then a lot of the vloggers, we were
01:10admittedly in the first few years just treating YouTube like just another platform.
01:14It was like we were producing videos on automotive tips, fashion, beauty, travel, entertainment,
01:24different formats, biographies, profiles, Q&As, and top tens, and admittedly like what
01:29does that mean to a user?
01:31If you're a user and you choose to vote with a subscription, you didn't really know what
01:37you were going to get.
01:38And I think today, subscribers, good morning Tyler, today, by the way we're going very
01:44early today.
01:45Thank you for your flexibility guys, because I was in New York yesterday for a board meeting
01:48and I'm going down south, taking the gals on their spring break vacation, so I was like
01:54we have to do this obviously, we can't, you know, it's the whole point, it's frequency.
01:57It's been a week, we must be diligent.
01:59We must be diligent, I mean if you guys go on vacation, we don't have to do it, but I'm
02:04here for you guys.
02:05Anyway, so back to Focus Ash, so I think today's subscribers are a vanity metric, and it makes
02:11sense, right?
02:12Like let's say you Rob, you subscribe to 20 channels, and they each publish a video that
02:16day, you don't want to get 20 notifications, right?
02:20But early on, subscribers were important, and we were like stuck at like less than 10,000,
02:24just as a little bit of a motivation for anybody watching.
02:27You know, we started off in 2006, 2007, we launched the official WatchMojo channel, but
02:34we had one called Frouche before, and yeah, it took forever because I think it didn't
02:39hit me yet that like, well, people want like a very like, what am I subscribing to?
02:43You know, if you subscribe to Sports Illustrated, you're going to get sports, if you subscribe
02:47to Fortune, you would get business articles.
02:50And so it took a while, but really, I would say, as we've covered in the previous shows,
02:54we found like our product market fit, and then we, after taking six years to hit 10,000,
03:01or five years, then the sixth year, we went from 10,000 to 100,000, and that's when I
03:06was like, okay, we're clearly finding a connection with, you know, you have viewers, you want
03:14to convert your viewers, sure, to subscribers, into an audience and a community, but that's
03:20really, you want them fans, you know, and like, if you look at it as a pyramid, there
03:25might be 1% that are hardcore fans, then you might have 10, 20, 30%, who are part of your
03:31community.
03:32And then you have a lot of people that are passersby.
03:35And that given our editorial scope and range, we have a lot of people that are just watching
03:40a video and whatnot.
03:41But yeah, and then so finally, in 2012 to 2013, we went from 100,000, we 10x to a million.
03:53And we had already launched the suggest tool, which early on was a great way for users on
03:57our site to give, you know, idea topics, suggestions.
04:01But yeah, and I remember vividly, I was sitting on my couch, it was like, 9.10pm.
04:04And I was like, refresh, refresh, refresh.
04:07In the background, I was watching the World Series, I think it was game seven, Boston
04:11Red Sox were Oh, there you go.
04:13There you go.
04:14Iconic moments.
04:15So literally, this happened.
04:18Like minutes later, we hit a million.
04:21And this stays with me.
04:22And people are like, you have a good memory.
04:23But I'm like, you know, you remember the specific moment?
04:27It's a big moment.
04:28And it was like game seven of, you know, the rest of the World Series.
04:33And so long story short, we hit a million.
04:37And then from there, the next year, we 5x sorry, as people are seeing, you're popular
04:42this morning.
04:43Ah, occasionally.
04:44Anyway, so so no, it was a great moment.
04:47And I felt like I was top of the world.
04:51But obviously, this was, I think, October.
04:54And then we continued.
04:56But as you said, it wasn't just all upwards and to the right, there were definitely going
05:00to be some.
05:02And this was like, at the time, we would like try to not just do, you know, our top 10s
05:08to kind of develop a rapport with the community.
05:11This was Watchmojo lady, Rebecca, and Dan, who was another one of our kind of voiceover.
05:17I mean, we all did so many things.
05:18Dan was like Rebecca, writer, researcher, and we all wore many hats.
05:22And it was a great period.
05:23So I was honest to God.
05:25I really, really felt like, you know, the next year, we would take over the world.
05:30But again, it was never upward trajectory.
05:32There was always like, you know, two steps forward, one step back, right.
05:36And didn't you have a meeting with YouTube shortly after hitting a million where they
05:39were like, within the next year, you'll be you'll be going from 1 million to 8 million.
05:44And they were all enthusiastic about the trajectory that you're on.
05:48Why do you think that was?
05:49Well, so what happened was us being based in Montreal.
05:52I don't even know if YouTube really had like a team at the time in Montreal.
05:55So whenever like certain execs and like the YouTube kind of power base was in San Bruno
05:59in the near San Fran.
06:02So I would occasionally when I would be in New York, meet them.
06:05So I was like, hey, if ever you have like senior execs in New York or Toronto, they
06:10may not want to trek to Montreal.
06:12But I was like, I'll gladly it's an hour flight, right?
06:14So I was like, I'll gladly come down.
06:16So yeah, our channel manager at the time, this gal named Amy Singer, who was one of
06:20the goats, you know, like watch Montreal's history.
06:22She'd be one of the 10 people who really played a part as an outsider because we were there
06:27was always something, you know, that I'd wake up to that we'd have to fix or remedy.
06:32But so she was like, you know, this this gentleman, Alex Carlos, is going to be in Toronto.
06:37Let's grab lunch.
06:38So we went and it was kind of it reminded me of that scene in Wolf of Wall Street early
06:42on when Leo DiCaprio start is starting his career and is having you're going to bring
06:48me a martini and one more and one more where Matthew McConaughey is like, you're going
06:52to bring me more martinis until I pass the fuck out type of a great scene, by the way.
06:57And when when Matthew McConaughey's character is like, oh, you know, you'll do wonderful
07:01things and you'll make a ton of money.
07:02And Leo's just like, oh, my God, you know, like smitten.
07:04So I was like, oh, wow, eight billion subs.
07:06And, you know, it's after five years of like wandering in the desert, finding product market
07:11fit, which every time I thought was like light at the end of the tunnel was like an oncoming
07:15train.
07:16And again, here you go.
07:17So at the end of October, hit a million.
07:20We keep growing and growing.
07:21Early December, I go to Toronto, meet them, have lunch, you're going to hit.
07:25He was like, how where have you been?
07:28How many views?
07:29How many subscribers?
07:30He's like, I reckon next year at this point, you'll be at eight million subscribers.
07:33I was like, wow.
07:35And then three days later, I wake up and the channel is down.
07:41Yeah, which sucked.
07:43It was a big deal because you guys were you know, you had a lot of momentum at that time.
07:47Like obviously, this was like a new story that Watchmojo had gone down.
07:51So what happened exactly?
07:53So to be honest with you, this was not even like, OK, so what happened basically was we
08:01had really good relationships with rights holders, because as I've mentioned, we would
08:05like interview Lady Gaga.
08:07We would interview Justin Bieber.
08:08We do, you know, Q&A's with the directors.
08:11And they were sending us electronic press kits and even somewhere here, I have a beta
08:16tape is like a symbol like I did not break into Warner Music's headquarters and steal
08:21this.
08:22They evidently sent it to us.
08:23It was always like a symbol.
08:24So I did have this insecurity that I was like, I don't want people to think we're like a
08:27rogue operation, like we're ethical.
08:30We are like a good corporate player.
08:32So rights holders were generally like starting to learn content ID, which I always said was
08:37a weapon of mass destruction.
08:39So they set rules, right?
08:42They could be like if any of our IP is used, issue a copyright strike.
08:47But there are cases and it's precedent in law that like a rights holder has to consider
08:52could this be fair use?
08:54They can't just use these tools like a weapon of mass destruction.
08:59But because rights holders, it's not like the VP of marketing is sitting there like
09:04doing this.
09:05They hire shops.
09:06A lot of them are like in the Philippines or, you know, lower cost environments where
09:10their mandate is just issue claims and strikes.
09:13So what happened was we did get a couple of strikes by a rights holder and they were like,
09:19yeah, it's fine.
09:20We'll retract the strike because it's not like a it's not a valid copyright infringement
09:28case.
09:29Right.
09:30So they were like, well, we'll retract it.
09:31But at the time, YouTube itself was navigating fair use and DMCA Digital Millennium Copyright
09:37Act and trying to establish content ID rules.
09:41And we would kind of share cases and precedents and we would like with permission of some
09:46rights holders be like, look, these guys don't have an issue.
09:49You are interpreting the law and you're allowed to and implementing it in a way that makes
09:53sense for your business.
09:55But my argument, as we've covered on previous episodes, was if you're trying to be a neutral
09:59platform to be protected by the safeguards of the DMCA and the Telecommunications Act,
10:06well, then you can't now actually be judge and jury.
10:09Yeah.
10:10So and they would, again, to their credit, it took time.
10:12It was a huge company.
10:13They were being sued by Viacom, but they were trying to do this right.
10:17But they were always kind of like, I mean, I hope this term is not offensive, you know,
10:20like a Mexican standoff in movies where you're like everybody's shooting at one another.
10:24We were just always caught in the crossfire.
10:26So even though the rights holder retracted the claims, YouTube had to literally process
10:32these retractions.
10:34So even though heading into like the Christmas Hanukkah Kwanzaa holiday season, we were
10:42like, OK, these claims have been retracted a bit early to see some guys.
10:47But by the way, he cut off just in time.
10:51So even though the strikes were retracted, YouTube did not process the retractions.
10:56So it was like after a certain number of days, we were like in the penalty box and automatically
11:01our channel went down.
11:03And actually in the 10 year overnight success, that's the opening scene of the book where
11:08I'm at the mall in Montreal with my daughter, who at the time was five and we're waiting
11:13in line to go see Santa Claus.
11:15And she's five and her face was so round and she was so excited.
11:18And, you know, today I'd be like, fuck it, I'll deal with it when I get home.
11:21But at the time, it's like Blitzkrieg, you know, it's like to you, it's like Pearl Harbor.
11:25You're like, you got to react, you know.
11:28And so I was like, Roxanne, my love, if you don't mind, can we do Santa Claus like next
11:34week?
11:35Daddy has to go home now.
11:38Couldn't even find the car in the parking.
11:39My head was all square.
11:40It was just like it was like everything, you know, and I was like rushing home and didn't
11:45want to crash the car.
11:46And you want to be stoic and you want to be like, again, I used to say Chris Rock, you
11:50know, it's like the cop stops you.
11:52It's like, get out of the car, get out of the car.
11:54And like as a driver, you're like, maybe I did something wrong.
11:57Yeah, stole this car.
11:58And so I got home and I fired off again like a diplomatic, but very terse email to YouTube
12:05being like, you guys can't keep on the one hand asking content creators to embrace the
12:11platform and go all in, which at the time YouTube I knew was not a pariah, but it was
12:15seen as a pariah.
12:17But I was like, get your fucking act together.
12:20I go here, here are all the emails.
12:21The rights holders have retracted it.
12:23We sent it to you.
12:24And I was like, we're not going to go public like other creators and bash you and the way
12:30they apologize, they apologize or like, yeah, this was like a procedural thing.
12:34So to their credit.
12:36So that was like the weekend, like a Monday, we were waiting for the channel to come back
12:40up.
12:41And for me, it was embarrassing professionally because it was like, you know, guilty before,
12:44you know, screw the innocent until proven guilty.
12:47It was like judge and jury.
12:48You got shot in the parking lot, you know.
12:50And then I remember one of my colleagues, Kevin, walking into my office and he's like,
12:55I think the site's back up, the channel.
12:57I'm like, yeah, I think it is too.
12:58I was like, well, let's not celebrate.
12:59And but it was just, you know, it's like a harrowing experience.
13:02But when I look back, it's all good and it's part of the journey.
13:05It also, it allowed me actually to become a bit more like proactive with the team to
13:11be like, look, I don't micromanage, but just because we think YouTube is going to do something
13:16or process this or that, I'm like, let's just double check.
13:18So I was like, look, if in the future, I'm like, are you sure that they retract the claim?
13:23Could you email them?
13:24Could you get a confirmation?
13:26I always then could point to the hack and not the hack.
13:28I could point to the hack was another incident, but I could I could point to the channel going
13:33down to be like, hey, I'd rather not micromanage you, but let's not leave anything to chance.
13:38So and so we came back up, but it was like very symbolic of the, you know, not even two.
13:43I mean, I was in one step forward, one step back.
13:45It was like two, three steps forward, but it was always one step back.
13:48It was always like a nice shit burger waiting for you.
13:52I imagine Watchmojo couldn't have been the only big channel to be affected in such ways.
13:56Was this incident kind of like a representation of what was going on across the platform at that time?
14:01Yes. Yes.
14:02I mean, look, the reality was behind the scenes.
14:05So I would it was later on.
14:07Let's I mean, there's different things, right?
14:08There's like platform risk.
14:10There's community guidelines.
14:11There's, you know, best practices.
14:14There's misleading.
14:16Later on during covid, there was old disinformation, you know, and then copyright was one of the other things.
14:22So, again, being an intellectually honest, self-aware individual, I was like, we use third party IP, some of it licensed, some of it under marketing, like explicit permission, whatever.
14:35But a lot of it through fair use.
14:36So I wasn't like, oh, my God, the injustice.
14:39Poor. I was like, look, I understand.
14:41We're always like the diplomatic Canadians, you know, between being born in Iran, growing up in Canada.
14:46I was very diplomatic with them, even though I probably gave some other employees like PTSD because, you know, I was like I had a business to run.
14:53I had to take care of my employees.
14:54If the channel's down, we're fucked.
14:56It's not very complicated.
14:57But yes, I think ultimately we were always a bit more understanding and empathetic.
15:02And I never wanted to, like, drive the Google YouTube employees crazy.
15:07But it was like everybody who was on YouTube had to navigate one thing or another.
15:12Sometimes it was just like community violation, which didn't make sense.
15:18But yeah, I mean, for us, I think the fundamental balance was behind the scenes.
15:26I was always helping other channels, like even to this day, people email me out of nowhere and they're like, hey, I saw a video you did on content idea or community violations.
15:35Could you help me?
15:36I know it's a long shot and they're surprised when I go, OK, I think this is what you should do or this is a response you should go with.
15:42Or I go like, could you just give me some details?
15:44And I think people are like, OK, like surprise.
15:47But I'd like to help there.
15:48It's the least I could do.
15:50But but yeah, it was maybe I won't lie.
15:52Maybe I should have actually been a bit more forceful.
15:55Like I'll never forget when YouTube started to do like shindigs and invite channel partners at the time.
16:00The CEO of Maker Studios, who was that was a multichannel network eventually acquired by Disney for like seven hundred million dollars.
16:07So their CEO was I apologize.
16:10I don't know if it's Enon or Enon, but now he's the CEO of Mattel.
16:14And he just got up and he was like, you fuckers should get your act together.
16:20You know, and I was like, imagine somebody invites you to their house or their headquarters and you're like the soup sucks ass.
16:27You know, I was like, you know, again, my my upbringing, you know, again,
16:30I'm Canadian, I'm American trained as a business person.
16:33But to me, it was like, oh, my God.
16:35But, you know, he was right.
16:38He was right to call them out.
16:39Whereas I was like, excuse me, could you get the stick out of my ass and this like lumbar out of my ear?
16:45It's like, you know, we should have been like, why the fuck is our channel now?
16:49We didn't do anything wrong.
16:50But again, at that moment, you want to be diplomatic.
16:52You want to be gracious.
16:53Over time, you become more assertive.
16:55So, yeah, everybody was dealing with one thing or another.
16:59And everybody felt like the world is against us, whereas I was at the time like, look, guys, we use third party IP.
17:05We have to navigate.
17:06And this is part of the racket.
17:08The analogy I used to use was I go, imagine you run a bar and you love it.
17:12You love the vibe, the music, the good looking people, the drinks.
17:17But yeah, once every couple days or nights, some guy gets drunk or you either get sick in the toilet or there's a fight that breaks out.
17:26You don't like to see that, but it's part of running a bar, unfortunately.
17:29You know, it's just it's it's part of it.
17:31So for us, it was kind of part of the racket.
17:33But yeah, definitely like it was it was it was like the year two or three of what was like a very, very stressful 10 year period.
17:41Did their execs realize like the urgency of this like right away?
17:46Like how did they respond to to the the calling out, so to speak, that that they got from some of the channels affected?
17:53Yeah, so, you know, obviously there were so many executives.
17:57I, you know, I've said this already.
17:58I always see the best in people.
18:00I always project people to be a lot more virtuous than they are if I could be candid now.
18:06So I don't want to paint them all with one brush.
18:08You'd be surprised.
18:09They were actually always very nice and professional and diplomatic.
18:12I think YouTube and this is kind of more of a commentary on like YouTube versus Google and all that.
18:17So Google was really like, yeah, the brainchild of Sergey Brin and Larry Page, a couple of Stanford grads.
18:25They built the search engine that was superior.
18:27And then they brought in like some really smart people like Omid Kordestani, Apaisano, many others.
18:33But they had like this kind of like golden goose, golden egg, whatever, like this kind of like just the best system ever that they kind of fell ass backwards in.
18:44And I mean, no disrespect.
18:45We've covered why Google became successful.
18:47They weren't the first.
18:48They got a lucky deal with Yahoo and just a lot happened for them to to win.
18:53And I love Google.
18:54Like I own a ton of shares.
18:55I've always been super pro Google.
18:57I even defend them.
18:58But Google developed this sense of like the superiority complex where they would hire really smart people from a select number of schools only.
19:08And they all felt like, again, I could say this now, maybe 15 years ago.
19:12I wouldn't say it because it sounds a bit mean, but they really felt like they fucking built Google.
19:17Like they like they felt like they played a constructive part in like the origins of Google when they didn't.
19:22To be honest, they just kind of got hired and it was just like a money printing machine.
19:26And they kind of built this dominant business.
19:29OK, so that's Google.
19:31The Google employees that ended up going to YouTube after Google bought YouTube were kind of the misfits.
19:41And this is like anecdotal and direct testimony and conversations I've had, but it's like decades old.
19:46I don't think anybody cares.
19:48A lot of like the guys and gals who left Google to go to YouTube after it acquired YouTube were like the, you know, the misfits, the risk takers,
19:58you know, the weirdos, you know, like the people who are like, yeah, this YouTube is like this weird new thing.
20:03But let's go work there. Right.
20:05But because Google video failed spectacularly and then Google bought YouTube, YouTube was always like kind of like a bit different culture wise.
20:18Right. The people that went to YouTube, I always felt, did not have the same chip on their shoulder as the Google people that felt they were like masters of the universe that built this money printing superior product.
20:33So to me, as like somebody that likes organizational behavior, psychology, you know, people and like get into it, I always felt that like the Google.
20:41Again, I love Google and I love all their employees, but I thought the Google employees were like overconfident when they had really not built anything.
20:50Right. They improved it. They fucking improved everything.
20:55Conversely, I thought the YouTube employees were a bit like more demure and more like humble, like pound for pound.
21:04And they were always like, yeah, you know, we experiment, we try, we've done things, but we don't always get it right.
21:11And I sense that they always actually came to us, especially in hindsight, to be like best practices.
21:20What do you do? But but also because they realized I wasn't just like some creator who had zero understanding of business management, the law, technology, finance.
21:31You know, so I was always like when they would try to explain it, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense because of this or that makes sense because of that.
21:37So they were always even if behind closed doors or like Ash is crazy.
21:42He emailed us again. What is the status on this?
21:44Like false modesty aside, we it's their platform, it's their decision, but we helped shape content policies.
21:52And yes, at first they were so tilted to the rights holders and it didn't make sense given the way the DMCA and all that works.
22:00But I actually felt they were always very gracious or very empathetic because we were also diplomatic.
22:06Right. We weren't like we had to be a bit more assertive or need be.
22:09But I always felt that they were kind of, you know, I always felt they were kind of like cool and, you know, understanding.
22:16But but they also didn't care in the sense that it was a platform.
22:20So they were like, you know, if I was like, oh, we're going to leave, they were like, OK, sayonara, don't let the door hit you on your ass, buddy.
22:27Before we continue on that note, I just want to let the audience know that we have a poll that has gone up on our YouTube channel.
22:33We would like to know how long have you been watching WatchMojo from the very beginning?
22:37Has it been less than 10 years or are you a new subscriber?
22:40So head over to our YouTube page and weigh in on that and we'll get to the results at the end of the show.
22:46Let's talk a little bit more about the reality of being on a platform that you don't own or have ultimate control about.
22:53Yeah, so one of the main criticisms of WatchMojo and one of the main criticisms I got, not personally,
23:00but like as a personal professional decision I made was building on YouTube VCs, journalists, executives, my fucking neighbor, you know, my blind dog.
23:10Everybody, everybody had an opinion on this.
23:11Nobody had any fucking clue, but everybody had an opinion on this.
23:14They were like, you're making a mistake.
23:16Why would you do this? Yada, yada.
23:17And for years I listened to them.
23:19But the reality is, look, WatchMojo is one of the greatest digital media success stories.
23:24Even if tomorrow, like fucking King Jung Il hits nuclear strike on our headquarters and we're forgotten, like our 20 year history will go down as one of the greatest like startup stories, yada, yada.
23:36Again, we're not owed anything tomorrow, but so that is just a fact, right?
23:40From on any metric, you know, and I don't care, I don't, I'm not here to, this is free advice for those that want to be a storyteller entrepreneur.
23:47I'm not here, I don't need to fucking prove anything to anybody.
23:50But so the point I'm getting at is people have to be realistic that I was like, the world is moving towards these big platforms, these technology platforms.
24:01Yes, some fucking octogenarian Sumner Redstone on his deathbed was like content is king.
24:07And we'll, we'll use that line because it works for us.
24:10But that's because you're lazy.
24:11You didn't actually read what the fuck the guy was saying.
24:14He was just saying new content, sorry, new distribution opens up the avenues for new content.
24:19So content is king because he's a fucking content owner.
24:22But I was like, get your heads out of your ass.
24:24The world is moving to these distribution platforms.
24:27And so for us, though, like Animal Farm, all platforms are equal, but some are more equal than others.
24:34So I was also like, you moron who's sitting here and like reading something that Mark Zuckerberg did on Facebook.
24:41You're then making this giant leap to make a comment about YouTube.
24:47And I would explain to them that Google, because they became this trillion dollar business, because they shared revenue, they sent traffic away.
24:56It was actually, yeah, they could be evil.
24:58They could be greedy.
24:58You could be at this socialist communist loser in your basement with your jar of Vaseline and your bag of Cheetos complaining about the world.
25:06But I'm like, Google actually understood the power of an ecosystem.
25:11And yes, that was transferred, that ethos, that DNA was transferred to YouTube, where even if they view us all as pawns and they don't give two thirds of zero fucks about like individual creators,
25:23they do realize that the ecosystem has to be healthy.
25:26So I was like, if you are lazy, like even with fair use, even the lawyers who are experts, the smart, the intellectually honest ones were like, Ash is a layman.
25:36He's not a lawyer.
25:37But unlike you, Lardo, he reads the cases, he reads the precedent.
25:42So his arguments are not copyright as this or that, you know.
25:45So if you actually were not intellectually lazy, you would understand that YouTube was just something different, which today again is the proof.
25:55Number one in fucking video, number one in fucking podcast, number one in music, number one entertainment platform.
26:04But all these people had all these opinions, you know, and that's the thing.
26:07You know, there's a great saying, don't ask for the like, don't care about the criticism of someone whose opinion you won't ask.
26:15Right.
26:15You know, like I go up to employees, zero experience, green, clueless, lost at sea, because I value opinion in our business.
26:23I can't just be like in 1995, I watched Seinfeld.
26:26I'm like, what are you watching?
26:28You know, like it's a different thing.
26:29And I think of the world differently.
26:32But I should have not listened to all these people because I wasn't going to kind of listen to them and go build a media company based on last year's playbook.
26:41So, you know, the reality was I would diplomatically tell them, OK, like we think this is the way to go.
26:47But yeah, nobody really wanted to build.
26:49And I think it's driven by greed also, where media companies don't want to share their revenue that could be generated from their IP with YouTube.
26:57But as I said, I love that YouTube has made millions of dollars from us, trillions, in fact.
27:03No, I'm kidding, because that means we've made a lot of money as well.
27:05Right. So you have to have that mindset and it is what it is.
27:08So I do a bit of like vindication.
27:10This is not anger.
27:11Maybe it's la passion.
27:13But I mean, it is a bit like tiresome when you think about it, that like for 10 years I was trying to kind of like convince people.
27:19But then in hindsight, I'm like, why did you need to convince anybody?
27:22Just let them let them drive off a cliff.
27:26Fair enough. Did you see any other platforms that had similar issues with Content ID or maybe even continue to have issues with it?
27:33Yeah, I mean, Facebook was like a Facebook was just a shitshow disaster, like from the beginning, because Facebook's problem was that Mark Zuckerberg really did not give a fuck about content storytelling media like zero, you know, and that's fine.
27:47He's a Silicon Valley guy, tech guy.
27:50He wants to, you know, not like Elon go to Mars, but the equivalent of, you know, go to Mars.
27:55So he always, I think, viewed video as like a means to an end and necessary evil.
28:00And, you know, Facebook's employees were also, for the most part, like nice people.
28:07But you would need that one asshole as well, who was just like some bitter loser who was like a reject of Hollywood, but like hired by Facebook to navigate video.
28:16But you sense this bitterness and it's like his own insecurities.
28:19And like I just could tell that like Facebook has a lot more internal issues and they don't have their purpose.
28:26They don't have their reason that they don't they don't know what the why is.
28:29Why are we in fucking video?
28:30Right. So there was a lot of companies.
28:34I remember this one little things, you know, and I'm not saying this to slag them, but they happen to build a business on Facebook.
28:39I'll go change. Disappeared.
28:41Bye bye.
28:42You know, I know a lot of fellow entrepreneurs who built the business on Facebook.
28:46And again, I was like amicably just saying, like, I'm not sure Facebook is that stable.
28:50But I also understood the reality that they had caught lightning on Facebook.
28:55So it made sense. So Facebook, to me, was just, you know, not at all stable.
28:59It was like it was like the crazy girlfriend was not even attractive in a way.
29:03So it was like there was no reason to really lean in.
29:07And I mean, then you see TikTok and this and that.
29:10And, you know, I think what I love about what's happening now is YouTube has really separated from the rest of the class.
29:17You really have to be a moron to really look at YouTube the way you would look at Metta, Insta, TikTok, Crapster, whatever.
29:25And I think to their credit, YouTube's doing a good job of articulating why, you know, CTV, connected TVs, or it's the main consumption platform on YouTube.
29:34So it's kind of more like traditional TV, whether you like to admit it or not.
29:38They're coming out and communicating that they're, you know, they've surpassed Spotify to become the number one podcasting platform.
29:44They are the number one music platform, whether you like it or not.
29:47You know, it's more people watch YouTube music than, you know, anything else.
29:53Yeah. So I think, you know, it's it's to me, the takeaway is when you have an idea as an entrepreneur or storyteller,
30:01you're never going to get the so-called perfect conditions that you want.
30:05You really, really are going to be like you have to compromise and you have to give and take.
30:09And that really does explain a big chunk of our success, basically.
30:13I have a note here about a market analogy and watermelons, which I don't understand.
30:17But I need to ask you what this is.
30:20I remember this saying, imagine like it doesn't need to be watermelons, could be oranges, tomatoes.
30:25You could have like, you know, the greatest apples and you want people to come to your farm and pick apples at your farm.
30:34And that's a good experience and it's fun.
30:37But if you want to be in the apple business, you have to go to the markets.
30:40You have to go where the people are and when the consumers go.
30:43You can't just assume that you're better tasting apple, I guess, unless you're Eve.
30:48But like you can't just assume that you're sweeter.
30:51Apple is going to draw in the interest of others.
30:54That's the point. Right. So a lot of people throughout the 2010s were still in this mindset that I have the sweetest apples.
31:02People are going to come to my farm and eat the apples here.
31:05And I was like, it's just a fucking apple.
31:08Whether I eat your apple or that apple, it's convenience.
31:11And for me, I'm going to walk two blocks to a market where I could get my apples, where I could get my oranges and tomatoes.
31:17And that's what YouTube was becoming.
31:18It was just, you know, even today before the show, we were just talking about what we consume and what we watch.
31:25YouTube, I also used to tell a lot of creators who are like, YouTube is this.
31:28You guys use clips. You guys are top tens.
31:31I was like, shut up. That's what you do.
31:33I was like, there's more people that watch our fucking content than yours.
31:36I didn't say this to them then, but I was like, OK, thank you for your feedback, you know, Lardo.
31:41But the point I'm getting at is, yes, I mean, YouTube has become two billion things to two billion different people.
31:50So it's not what I think is YouTube or what you think or what that is.
31:55You have to understand that we live in a world of niche.
31:57It's no longer 1960 where you could run an ad for Pepsi on ABC, NBC or CBS and reach 80 percent of America.
32:04Doesn't work like that. It's fragmented.
32:06You actually have to work.
32:07You know, I love marketers.
32:08I'm a marketer at heart in a way.
32:10I'm a storyteller. I like I like all these functions.
32:12But marketers are lazy sometimes, you know, and to succeed and to cut through the clutter, you've got to roll up your sleeves and work.
32:18Right. And but doesn't that yield better results also because things are so much more niche and targeted now?
32:23Of course, because if you're like, you know.
32:26I mean, OK, yes, but like I sometimes get pitches from entrepreneurs who are like, oh, we launched this like new media company targeting dads.
32:37And I'm a dad of two gals. So I'm interested, let's say, in that, you know, or just this week I got this gentleman was like, I think affluent blacks are underserved in the market.
32:49And I said, you're right. I go anecdotally.
32:51I go, I'm not black, but I go, I do think you're right about that.
32:55But my question to after a few exchanges was, do you need a dedicated media brand?
33:01Yes. As a viewer, as a user, if you're an affluent black, you might care about different topics and that I don't doubt.
33:08But if you're a marketer and ultimately marketing underwrites this, do you need a dedicated like media brand for affluent blacks?
33:16Or could you reach affluent black people through programmatic different places?
33:21They're around. They're on our channel. They're on Yahoo.
33:23Right. So, yes, it is better because the world is more fragmented and niche, but it's also harder, worse in a way, because, you know, it's it's it's hard to support those those media publications as well.
33:39You know, because ultimately not that many people are going to pay for it as a subscription.
33:43And I don't know if the dollars are there the way that they used to be in magazines where you could go and buy some ads, you know, print ads.
33:52Programmatic has changed the rules. Right. So that's also a good point you made, which is you could have in 2025 a really smart editorial strategy, but that may not anymore translate to a good commercial strategy.
34:08And so you do really need to start with the macro. You know, it's a balance.
34:12You have to balance your strengths, what you care about with what is happening in the world.
34:16Interesting. So we have our poll results in. We asked, how long have you been watching WatchMojo?
34:22And about 33 percent of people said for around 10 years, 33 percent said a couple of years.
34:29Twenty five percent said from the beginning. So the OGs and eight percent said that they are new subscribers.
34:35So we have a lot of longtime viewers.
34:37Great. I mean, it's bittersweet.
34:40I don't want to lie. I'm a human.
34:41So I have like yesterday I checked out of the hotel and the lady was like, can I email you the invoice or receipt or whatever?
34:49I was like, yeah, sure. She's like, what's your email? I gave her my email at WatchMojo.com and she was like, thank you.
34:55And then she's like, by the way, I love the website. She used website.
34:58I'm assuming she meant channel, but maybe she's one of the few on our website, which was like, I love the website.
35:03And I get that a lot now. And it's not like it doesn't go to my head.
35:06I go, this is the generation that grew up on YouTube.
35:08So they know us, but false modesty aside, we obviously have like 50 million subscribers.
35:12It's great. But I also have this part of me that wants to go like ballistic and break chairs when people say and it's a good thing.
35:20But it's when they're like, oh, I remember years ago I used to watch WatchMojo.
35:25It's like, oh, memories of my childhood, you know, and I get it.
35:29If somebody started watching us 15 years ago, OK, now they got kids, they got a mortgage.
35:35It's a bit different.
35:36So that's one of my personal kind of just things that I'm like, OK, let's draft on that.
35:43And, you know, you always say you want as a dealmaker your best deal to be tomorrow, not yesterday.
35:48You as an athlete, you want to score your greatest goal, your biggest victories tomorrow.
35:52So even with WatchMojo, I'm like, I want to make sure that over the next 20 years, WatchMojo's best days are ahead of it.
35:59You know, right.
36:00Also, that's why I hired and I'm working with people in a certain way now because you need a team and you need people
36:06who believe in that.
36:07If you have people, this is anything a business, a team, if you have people that aren't committed, like in hockey,
36:13there's a couple of players that got traded recently and they went from playing with like Nathan, the Rantanen guy.
36:20He was playing with McKinnon, getting like 100 points.
36:22He's now in Carolina.
36:24And it's like, is he a fraud?
36:25But it's not that he's a fraud.
36:26He just doesn't have that same passion and that same fire.
36:30And you've got to cut that guy.
36:32You got to just trade him for a bag of pucks because he's not going to be contributing to the team's goals.
36:38You know, so I do think that part of it is, OK, we've been around for 15, 20 years, but how do we draft on that moving forward
36:46and not just rest on our laurels and have a big head because of something that happened 10 years ago?
36:50Right. That's a great mindset.
36:52And on that note, let's say WatchMojo didn't exist and you were starting from scratch today.
36:58What would your approach be?
37:00Only fans. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
37:03There's a market for everything.
37:05No, there is, but not in general.
37:08No. So look, it's like you got to be careful because, yeah, we talk about Hollywood being gatekeeper.
37:14Yeah, there's great people in Hollywood and there's toxic people.
37:16Right. And same thing.
37:18There's some great people who work in tech and there's some like morons.
37:21There's some very arrogant assholes, let's say.
37:24Ultimately, we've traded gatekeepers for these tech overlord platforms, right?
37:31Like we are at the mercy of Elon Musk, what he ate and how he feels this morning.
37:36You know, whereas like Google, YouTube is more professional.
37:39It's a bunch of executives.
37:41That's also something we didn't touch on.
37:43But so I still think the best game in town is YouTube.
37:46Yes, I tell people go look at Snap, go look at X.
37:50X, I think, is a very promising platform, but it ain't YouTube.
37:55It could be TikTok.
37:56It could be Facebook.
37:58You know, if Elon wakes up tomorrow and goes, oh, people are using videos to trash me and to ridicule Tesla.
38:06He's going to fucking disable video.
38:08You know what? I'm not saying he would, but that's the kind of guy he is.
38:11He's clearly he's a brilliant genius, but he's also very insecure.
38:15And I've said it, everybody is driven by insecurities.
38:18So I still think at a high level, YouTube is the place to be.
38:22But I think a lot of people are lazy or don't open their blinds where I'm like, don't look in the rear view.
38:31Like if you want to come in or like, I want to do a top 10 channel featuring clips on entertainment.
38:35I'm like, bro, bro, look forward.
38:39You know, I talked about whether it's space, science, cloning, AI, blockchain, something.
38:46What are the things that the fandoms, the communities that are going to emerge then find the platform format fit?
38:55You know, do you do explainers?
38:56Do you do whatever?
38:57So I definitely think YouTube is the best game in town, but I strongly urge people look at X, look at even TikTok.
39:04Like you have to go where the puck is going, you know, so to speak.
39:07Yeah, absolutely.
39:10Listen, Ash, I think I think that pretty much does it.
39:12This was a great, very interesting story.
39:15Let's preview next week's episode where we talk about how WatchMojo decided to go big or go home.
39:21Yeah, so I mean, the next year in 2014, we're actually the seventh largest channel in the world on YouTube, which is not bad.
39:28I'll take it.
39:29But that was also in some ways when then the deluge started, right?
39:33So we faced increased competition and clutter.
39:37We then kind of went from, I say, the Montreal Expos to wanting to be the New York Yankees.
39:41So we recruited execs and we launched like a gazillion products and projects.
39:46And we tripled headcount at one point.
39:48We're seventy five. And I said, great, but very chaotic time.
39:51So we'll talk about that.
39:53You know, basically everything is relative, but like you get to the top, so to speak.
39:57How do you stay on top?
39:59Definitely not obvious or easy.
40:01And we, I think, net net successfully executed on that.
40:05But we made a shit ton of mistakes.
40:07And I look forward to talking about those next week.
40:09Should be an interesting one.
40:11All right. Well, thank you as always.
40:12It's a pleasure. And I'll see everybody next week.
40:15Take care, guys.