The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has proposed designing and building 12 conventional submarines under Project 76.
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00:00It is a little known fact outside defence and security circles, viewer, that India has
00:22far fewer submarines than it needs.
00:25As the pre-eminent maritime force in the Indian Ocean region, the Indian Navy has had
00:30to make do for decades now with dwindling submarine force levels that do not befit an
00:36armed force of the Indian Navy's size or responsibility.
00:41By now, the Indian Navy should ideally have had anywhere between 25 and 30 conventional
00:46attack submarines, but we have only 17.
00:50Why am I telling you this today?
00:52Well, India's Defence Research and Development Organisation, or DRDO, is set to propose designing
00:57and building an entirely indigenous conventional submarine, that is a non-nuclear submarine,
01:03a diesel-electric submarine, under what is called Project 76, a plan that envisions delivering
01:1012 conventional attack submarines in under a decade.
01:14At first glance, this might seem like a step in the right direction, a move towards greater
01:19self-reliance and technological advancement must always be applauded.
01:24But a closer look may raise serious concerns about strategic priorities and long-term planning.
01:30While indigenous efforts in defence manufacturing must be welcomed at all levels, Project 76
01:37being proposed now exposes the lopsided nature of India's naval planning.
01:42The paradox here is striking.
01:44India has already managed to design, build and deploy the most complex type of submarine,
01:50nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, before even attempting to develop the far
01:55simpler conventional diesel-electric submarines that the DRDO now wants to design.
02:01This is akin to mastering jet propulsion before understanding how to build a basic propeller
02:06aircraft.
02:07If anything, it is an illustration of how India's long-term naval strategy has been
02:12reactive rather than structured.
02:15And then there is the fundamental question, why?
02:18The Indian Navy is already juggling two parallel conventional submarine programs.
02:23Project 75, the license-built French Scorpion submarine line in Mumbai, where six boats
02:29have already been delivered, with three more on order.
02:32Then there's something called Project 75 India, an upcoming deal to build six more conventional
02:37submarines in a parallel line in Mumbai in collaboration with Germany's ThyssenKrupp
02:42Marine Systems.
02:44This will be an entirely new production line.
02:46Now with these two existing programs already in motion, is it really possible to justify
02:51a third line, more so when India has already opted for a nuclear-powered future?
02:57Last year, the government sanctioned the construction of six nuclear-powered attack submarines,
03:03vessels that are vastly superior to conventional submarines in every way.
03:06Endurance, lethality, stealth, everything.
03:10Unlike diesel-electric submarines that must surface or snorkel frequently, exposing themselves
03:15to detection, nuclear-powered boats can stay submerged indefinitely, operate at greater
03:20speeds and provide unmatched endurance for what is called blue-water operations.
03:25Now given the Indian Navy's clear preference for a predominantly nuclear-powered submarine
03:30fleet, wouldn't it be far more prudent to simply accelerate Project 77 rather than dilute
03:37resources into yet another conventional submarine program?
03:41Instead of investing in another diesel-electric line, why not ensure India's first-grown nuclear-powered
03:47attack submarines arrive well ahead of schedule, bringing the Navy on par with major naval
03:52powers?
03:54But then there are those who argue that India's conventional fleet is in dire straits with
03:58just 17 submarines and needs a numbers boost as quickly as possible.
04:03The Indian Navy currently operates six Scorpene-class submarines, seven Russian Kilo-class submarines
04:09and four German Type 209 submarines.
04:12Most of these are showing their age and are well past their prime.
04:16Project 76, which is being proposed now, is not just a question of self-reliance, it is
04:21a question of strategic clarity.
04:23Should India waste years designing a homegrown conventional submarine where it could be fast-track
04:28its nuclear submarine project?
04:30Should resources be split between three separate conventional submarine programs when the Navy's
04:36long-term vision is clearly nuclear?
04:39This isn't to say that an indigenous conventional submarine isn't worth considering.
04:43But the timing and prioritization will be a topic of debate.
04:47With major submarine procurement efforts already underway, now is the time, perhaps, for focus
04:53not fragmentation.
04:55India has a rare opportunity to shift decisively towards a nuclear submarine force, a move
05:01that would make the Indian Navy a true maritime power.
05:04The question is whether it will take this path or allow itself to be weighed down by
05:09yet another conventional project that adds complexity without adding real strategic value.
05:15The choice should be clear.
05:17So these are the questions we are asking today on BattleCry.
05:22Number one, should India really spend money and energy on yet another conventional submarine
05:27product, even though if it's its own?
05:30Number two, should India instead accelerate its nuclear-powered attack submarine project?
05:36Number three, with two submarine building lines, does it make sense for India to design
05:41its own?
05:42It's a very, very expensive process.
05:44Number four, why is the DRDO leading this project and not the Directorate of Naval Design,
05:50which actually designs all of India's nuclear submarines?
05:53Number five, will a homegrown design help build numbers faster than foreign boats, and
05:58is that the rationale behind this pitch?
06:01Joining me live now to understand firsthand what they think about the DRDO pitch for a
06:08new conventional attack submarine that will be designed fully and built indigenously.
06:13Vice Admiral A.K. Singh, former Commander-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, also a veteran
06:19submariner.
06:20Captain D.K.
06:21Sharma, former spokesperson of the Indian Navy and now with Bharat Shakti, and Commodore
06:25Praveen Rajpal, also a veteran submariner.
06:29Welcome to all of you.
06:30Thank you very much for being with me.
06:32I request all of our guests to keep their answers a little brief so I can get in as
06:36many questions as possible.
06:38Admiral Singh, I'll come to you first.
06:40First impressions on this DRDO pitching for a homegrown conventional submarine that it
06:46will deliver in under 10 years?
06:48Well, first of all, Shiv, you have put everything in perspective.
06:53But if I may add that the Indian Navy requires both conventional submarines for shallow water
06:58operations and we also require SSNs for the vast reaches of the Indian Ocean region.
07:05Having said that, this DRDO talking about building a submarine in 10 years, I'm afraid
07:11it's totally unrealistic.
07:14I've got a very good idea as to how much time we took for the ATV project, and I have got
07:19a very good idea how much time we took on the Scorpene project, and designing a submarine
07:24from scratch, a conventional submarine, modern submarine from scratch, will be a very major
07:30issue.
07:31It may take anything from 5 to 10 years to design it and get the design itself, forget
07:35everything else.
07:36Having said that, we have all the other materials in place.
07:41The pressure steel is there in India, the ATV project has spawned a lot of industry
07:47which has created a lot of systems and subsystems, some of which could be used here.
07:52And we have got an excellent submarine design team in the naval headquarters.
07:56I don't see the DRDO designing this thing, much as they may say so, this will be designed
08:01if it actually factifies, the government approves it, in my opinion, it will be designed by
08:06the submarine design team in collaboration with the DRDO and they will require perhaps
08:10some foreign validation of the design at some stage.
08:13Okay.
08:14Commodore Rajpal, your first impressions of this DRDO proposal, sir?
08:20Good evening, Shiv.
08:21Pleasure to be on your show.
08:22Good evening, Admiral, sir.
08:23I mean, I'm honoured to be on a show with my CNC and my instructor, the way he commanded
08:29us.
08:30After a long time.
08:31Sir, Admiral has already said what was to be said in this aspect.
08:35Well, there is no doubt DRDO being our premier agency has done wonders, the collaboration
08:40between DRDO and the Navy for the ATV project, I mean, it's shown the world what we can do.
08:46They've been at the forefront, whether it is a sonar, whether it is a missile, whether
08:49it is a firefighting system, whether it is pressure hull, everything.
08:53But then we have an agency, the submarine design group in existence for the last 40-50
08:58years.
08:59They've got the experience, they've seen the submarines being made in India, whether it
09:02was the HTW initially.
09:03Well, the TOT did not fructify that time because the HTW was blacklisted.
09:09But then they have seen the Scorpines being built where the TOT, I wouldn't say was to
09:15the extent that we desired, but the SDG group was there, present in MDL, seeing every stage
09:21of the submarine being built.
09:22And I would rather say the last one took a little longer because the indigenous content
09:27of...
09:28Okay, we've lost that link with Commodore Rajpal, I'll try and re-establish that.
09:34Captain Sharma, bringing you in, your first impressions of this, both the Admiral and
09:38Commodore say it should be the naval design, the director of naval design that should be
09:43leading this and not the DRDO.
09:46But what do you think?
09:48Okay, that's a bad audio line, we'll come back to Captain Sharma.
09:59Also a terrible audio line, I'm going to ask our producers to try and fix that.
10:03Admiral Singh, we've got the best audio connection with you, so I'm going to come right back
10:06to you.
10:07You know, you've made it clear, and I thank you for clarifying that, that India needs
10:11both conventional and nuclear submarines.
10:13So it's not, you know, a zero-sum game, it's not we can choose one or the other.
10:17We need to boost those numbers.
10:22Can you explain to us why an indigenous design also needs to happen at this time, when, you
10:30know, when you've got these two production lines already, one that exists right now,
10:35one that is being negotiated right now, does it make sense to invest in another, considering
10:40the huge costs involved, sir?
10:42Well, you know, the way naval projects take time, you know, from the time any project,
10:48the file is started in naval headquarters, it takes 15 years for the project itself to
10:52be approved.
10:53And this kind of lag is always there.
10:56So personally, I feel that we have a large number of the systems and subsystems in place,
11:04we might require some more things to be made in India, but the pressure on steel is there,
11:08the various electrical systems, cabling subsystems are there.
11:13So there is perhaps definitely a need for the submarine design group to emulate what
11:18the ship design group is doing in naval headquarters.
11:20They are designed for different classes of ships in parallel.
11:23So this is a highly trained group, I know these people have been trained abroad at considerable
11:29expense.
11:30And I think it's time that they put their experience to work and produce something in
11:38collaboration with the DRDO.
11:39I think it's very important because, in my opinion, as long as submarines cannot be detected
11:44and as long as our geography remains the same, we will require conventional submarines and
11:49nuclear submarines for decades to come.
11:53So, some stage, you will have to have purely Indian submarines with purely Indian design
11:58and purely Indian systems and subsystems so that you are not caught with the spares problem
12:05with the foreigners.
12:07So having an indigenous design is also to hedge your risk and make sure that you also
12:12have something to fall back on.
12:14Commodore Rajpal, you know, the Chinese have been moving very aggressively with their own
12:18nuclear submarine program.
12:21India's own SSN program was sanctioned last year to develop and build two boats, a total
12:27of six in the future.
12:30Does India have the luxury of, you know, investing in all these different projects or, you know,
12:37should it be focusing on one?
12:38Admiral Singh, you know, rightly says, you know, it cannot be one or the other.
12:43We will need both given the huge lead times, you know, leading up to their fraction.
12:49No, very rightly said.
12:52Well, see, it's a debate like, you know, people discussing do we need an aircraft carrier
12:56or a submarine?
12:57Yeah.
12:58These two cannot be equated.
12:59You cannot equate apples with oranges.
13:00So same goes, as Admiral said, the shallow water operations to be done by the conventional
13:04boats.
13:05And if you have to go farther into the IOR, reach where the China reaches into the South
13:10China Ocean and beyond, we need an SSN.
13:12So there is no comparison between the two.
13:15They operate differently.
13:16Their requirements are different.
13:18And the systems meant to be used on those vessels are totally different.
13:24But the fact remains, well, we have the capability now.
13:27We have seen so many submarines being built in India.
13:29We have the indigenous structure already there.
13:32The MSMEs, there are about 200 MSMEs we have cultivated over the last 20-30 years.
13:37Yes.
13:38Why not use them?
13:39Why not use them?
13:40This is the time.
13:41So let's go ahead.
13:42And when we talk of the budget, it's not that we're going to use all the budget in the next
13:45one or two years.
13:46True.
13:47It's a long term project, 10 years, 15 years, so we can well manage it.
13:51One of the unique things about submarine building in India, Admiral Singh, is, you know, it's
13:55happened in reverse here.
13:58We've built, designed and built the most complex variety, you know, nuclear-powered ballistic
14:04missile submarines.
14:06Now the project to build nuclear-powered attack submarines is underway.
14:11And now the coming third is this proposal to build conventional attack submarines.
14:16Why has this happened?
14:17And also my other question is, if we've mastered the most complex variety of submarines, shouldn't
14:23building or designing, you know, the simpler variety of submarines happen at a much faster
14:29rate?
14:30Not really.
14:31You know, the ATV project went under at a different speed.
14:36It was what you all call mission mode.
14:39Yeah.
14:40It had a different system in place.
14:42It had different priorities.
14:43And even then, it took a very long, long time.
14:45Let me tell you, I was involved with it, it took a long, long time, despite all that.
14:50And these other projects, whether you have warships or submarines or aircraft, etc.,
14:54helicopters, they run at a different speed.
14:57And now, I agree, we lag behind enormously in our decision-making, in our production.
15:03But then the requirements haven't changed, and they're not likely to change in the next
15:06hundred years, or maybe more.
15:08So, we are slow, we are behind many other countries which produce submarines.
15:13You know, there are countries which produce submarines, China produces, I think, two or
15:17three different classes of submarine every year, including conventional nuclear and
15:21attack and SSBMs, etc.
15:23So, but we know what we are, and we have no other choice but to go through this learning
15:27process and build our own.
15:29I am just wondering, you know, because the reports that have appeared in the media this
15:33week, Commodore Rajpal suggests that the Defense Research and Development Organization is pitching
15:39this project to the Cabinet Committee on Security, the CCS, and it is likely to be sanctioned.
15:46You know, but there are already comments, not just from here on this show, but I've seen
15:51some comments on social media from naval veterans, on a couple of other channels as well, which
15:57echo what you are saying, which is that the Directorate of Naval Design should be leading
16:02this project and not the DRDO.
16:04You know, there is a lot of, there seems to be a lack of faith as far as the DRDO is concerned
16:11in this, considering that the DND has, you know, has reached a certain level of maturity
16:16in being able to lead such projects.
16:19Would you share that view, Commodore?
16:21Absolutely.
16:22I would rather reiterate the whole thing again, that DND and DRDO have collaborated for the
16:28ATV project, so why not again collaborate and go ahead.
16:31I would also give you an example of the AIP for the Scorpene submarine.
16:35Well, this has been under, you know, process for the last 10 to 15 years.
16:39Finally, we have reached a stage where now the Naval Group and DRDO have sort of collaboration
16:45and they would say that for the next three that are going to be constructed or maybe
16:48the first of the Scorpene when it comes to the refit, the AIP plugin would happen on that.
16:53So let's go ahead with that.
16:55It's a very specialized project.
16:56I think DRDO should concentrate on that, get that thing going first, rather than coming
17:01into this new designing altogether, which DND is already capable of doing.
17:05So let them collaborate, let them go ahead.
17:07But first, let's get the AIP going on a Scorpene.
17:10My final round of questions is on the, you know, is on the China factor, Admiral Singh.
17:16You wanted to add something on that, Admiral Singh, before I ask my question?
17:19Yeah, Shiv, I just want to reiterate that DRDO might get the file work done and get
17:25the sanction for the design, but the actual design as has happened in the past, I won't
17:30name in other projects also, is done by the design team of Naval Headquarters.
17:34So you don't see that as being a problem.
17:36That's good to hear.
17:37That's good to hear.
17:38Now, finally, sir, on the China issue, which you did touch upon, but I just want to go
17:42into it in a little bit more detail, because the dynamics of the Chinese submarine force
17:49levels have, you know, have become dramatically different in the last 10 years.
17:53They've got, you know, multiple nuclear submarine projects that are, you know, that are online.
18:00There is activity in the Indian Ocean that has increased quite a bit.
18:06You know, the various geopolitical churns that have taken place in the last few years
18:10that have meant, you know, Chinese intentions seem to be more upfront.
18:17Given all of that, how much pressure will there be on, you know, I know these things
18:23are never simple.
18:24You know, there are multiple layers to maritime security and national security.
18:28But if we were to focus just on India's submarine arm and submarine force levels, how important
18:34is it going to be to, you know, get our nuclear submarine force on time and, you know, on
18:41schedule, sir?
18:42Admiral Singh.
18:43No, you're absolutely right, Shiv.
18:44And I'm afraid we are again lacking there also, even in the nuclear SSN project we have
18:51just started now.
18:52So, we are half hour behind the Chinese.
18:55And incidentally, the Chinese have a requirement, which is very similar to the Indian Navy.
19:00They require submarine to the AIPS for operating within a few hundred miles of the coast within
19:05the first and second island chain to deal with the other neighbors.
19:08And for long range operations in the Pacific and Indian Ocean, they require the SSNs.
19:13And for deterrence, they require the SSBNs.
19:15So they are working on all three fronts.
19:17They're working at a very fast speed.
19:20I suspect we'll have to actually put up our game, pull up our game a little more and try
19:25and catch up as much as we can.
19:28Commodore Rajpal, accelerating the SSN program, which is India's, you know, the Project 77
19:33as it's being called, the nuclear powered attack submarine program, with, you know,
19:39with the Arihant class submarines already built, from a technical perspective, how much
19:44more complicated is it going to be to, you know, get that right?
19:49Because in the public view or the lay person's view, it will be like, you know, if we've
19:53mastered the Arihant, how much more complicated can it be getting the SSNs right?
19:58Can you throw some light on that?
20:00Yeah, I mean, rather vague example, I would say, don't compare a Maruti with some other
20:07car.
20:08They're two different.
20:09So we should keep it at that.
20:10Well, SSBN and SSN totally separate.
20:13What I know from the open source literature is that the reactor on the SSNs would be much
20:19bigger, about 180-190 kilowatts.
20:22So with that, what we are using now, it's going to be a total different technology,
20:26different engineering, requiring much more stringent processes and quality requirements.
20:31So it's not going to be just the same.
20:32While the design, more or less, I would say the hull part, which we have mastered over
20:36the years now, the pumps, the valves, the systems, the electronics, could be just,
20:43you know, extrapolated, interpolated into what we need now.
20:46But the major thing, the motion moving that is a reactor and the turbines would be absolutely
20:52different.
20:53And that would require a lot of effort, a lot of technical expertise to get the systems
20:56going.
20:57Okay.
20:58So it's important that that perspective is available because it's, you know, I don't
21:02want anyone to think that it's a copy-paste job without the ability to fire ballistic
21:08missile submarines.
21:09It is a million times more complicated than that.
21:12It's going to require a more powerful reactor, you know, a more complicated weapons capability,
21:18as it were, and, you know, all the attendant technologies that will go into making these
21:23two kinds of submarines very, very, very different.
21:26Captain Sharma, apologies that we lost you for most of this very rich discussion.
21:31But I think you can hear me now and I hope we can hear you.
21:34Go ahead.
21:35Your impressions of this project, Project 76 that the DRDO has proposed.
21:41Unfortunately, we're having a bad day with Captain Sharma.
21:50His internet line is very, very weak today.
21:52So we'll have to leave it there for that on that moment.
21:55I'll get some closing comments from Admiral Singh and Commodore Rajpal.
22:00Admiral Singh, to you first, you know, I do sense, you know, a bit of skepticism from
22:07you obviously, in terms of the timelines that are being discussed right now, you know, three
22:13years to design this submarine, five years to deliver the first one.
22:18Why does that not seem reasonable to you, sir?
22:20Explain that.
22:21Oh, very simply, Shiv, I've just looked at my 20, my 40 years in the Navy and I was dealing
22:28with this project for almost eight or nine years myself in naval headquarters.
22:34It's impossible to design a submarine in three years.
22:37And for us, it's impossible to build a submarine in five years.
22:41The design will take some more time.
22:43And thereafter, there will be a time for design validation, which requires another expert
22:49team, which normally, even for our warships, we get our design validated from outside normally.
22:56And thereafter building, you see, if you had only casual, just like in the ATV and hopefully
23:03in the SSN project, while the first submarine will take a long, long time to come, thereafter
23:07when the pipeline production starts, the gap between two successive submarines will start
23:12reducing from five years to three years to hopefully two years.
23:16That is, we have seen that in the Scorpene also.
23:18The first Scorpene took some time, even despite the fact that it was not our own design.
23:23So we have this tendency, we have to pull up our socks, but we have to, there's no other
23:30choice but to do it.
23:31Nobody else will do it for us.
23:34Very true.
23:35Closing comments from you, Commodore Rajpal, that, you know, the submarine arm is not some
23:40kind of a sidelight or luxury.
23:42This is an imperative as far as national security is concerned, given India's hugely expanded
23:49responsibilities in the Indian Ocean region and beyond.
23:53And therefore, there can be no slip ups on these projects.
23:56Absolutely, Shiv, I agree with you.
24:00As you said earlier that China is going to deliver eight of the U-1 class submarines
24:04to Pakistan now.
24:05Yeah.
24:06From there, three, I think that's the number they have now from the conventional submarines
24:09would go up to probably 11 in the next few years.
24:12From our 30-year plan, we were supposed to have 24 by now, and we're still operating
24:1617, which are also age old now.
24:18So we have to move on and move on at a very fast pace without deterring any further.
24:22Imagine the Scorpene project signed in 2007 and the last one being delivered in 2025.
24:27Well, it takes that long.
24:29The further we keep deterring and keep delaying and deciding who's going to design and who's
24:32going to do everything, we are only going to delay it further.
24:35So I would still agree and reiterate what the Admiral also said, let the two agencies
24:40collaborate rather than having two different designs.
24:43Absolutely.
24:44And we wish the team well.
24:46Remember that when it comes to self-reliance, there is no easy path, there are no shortcuts.
24:51You know, what is behind us is behind us.
24:55It can never be revisited.
24:56We can only look forward, look ahead and hope to actually do it better, learning from the
25:01mistakes of the past.
25:03Thank you very much, Admiral A.K. Singh and Commodore Rajpal for being with me on the
25:07show.
25:08It's great to have submariners and veterans throwing light on this very esoteric subject
25:13and I hope I've been able to make it much more accessible to our viewers.
25:16That is always the attempt here on Battle Cry.
25:20Great to have the both of you on the show.
25:21Thank you so much.
25:22That's it on Battle Cry.
25:23Thanks for watching.