The former prime minister of Australia Malcolm Turnbull says Donald Trump appears to be facillitating a victory for Vladimir Putin over Ukraine.
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He says Donald Trump's approach is that of a classic strongman, and is cause for Australia to reevaluate its strategic relationship with the United States and consider how to protect itself in the future.
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He says Donald Trump's approach is that of a classic strongman, and is cause for Australia to reevaluate its strategic relationship with the United States and consider how to protect itself in the future.
ABC News provides around the clock coverage of news events as they break in Australia and abroad. It's news when you want it, from Australia's most trusted news organisation.
For more from ABC News, click here: https://ab.co/2kxYCZY
Watch more ABC News content ad-free on ABC iview: https://ab.co/2OB7Mk1
Go deeper on our ABC News In-depth channel: https://ab.co/2lNeBn2
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00:00What is your view about what Donald Trump is doing right now?
00:04Well, he's running Vladimir Putin's lines.
00:06I mean, if you look at the interview,
00:08the long interview that Vladimir Putin did with Tucker Carlson,
00:13Putin made all these points, you know, that Zelensky's a dictator,
00:17it's not a democracy, that Ukraine started the war.
00:22These are all Putin's points.
00:25So we have the, you know, the shocking, appalling,
00:29but I regret to say somewhat predictable and predicted,
00:33situation where the President of the United States
00:36is siding with a Russian dictator,
00:39a murderous dictator,
00:42who has invaded a sovereign democracy, Ukraine,
00:47and siding with the invader, not Ukraine.
00:51So it's mind-blowing, but that's the world we live in.
00:55I mean, Trump is not an aberration.
00:58I mean, when he got elected the first time,
01:00a lot of people felt it was a fluke.
01:02The Republican Party were, many of them,
01:04perhaps most of them were very ambivalent about him.
01:08This time he's in total command of the Republican Party,
01:12and he won that election.
01:13He won it by, in the Electoral College and on the numbers.
01:18So, and he's, you know,
01:20his vice president is singing off the same song sheet.
01:23So this is the new world,
01:26the new world of disorder.
01:28So this new world of disorder, as you've just described it,
01:31we've had a set of rules since World War II,
01:34which we've adhered to.
01:36Are they now broken?
01:39Well, Trump is in the business of breaking them.
01:40Yeah, for sure.
01:41I mean, look, he does not believe
01:43in the international rules-based order.
01:45Trump believes that might is right.
01:49So he has the same view of geopolitics
01:52as Vladimir Putin does,
01:53or indeed, arguably, you could say Xi Jinping does,
01:56although the Chinese would say
01:58that they do believe in a rules-based order.
02:00But let's face it, he's taking his,
02:04a classic strong man who is saying,
02:07you know, I'm big, I'm stronger than you,
02:09therefore I can do what I want.
02:10I mean, look at the way he's sought to bully Denmark
02:13or Canada or other countries.
02:16And so the question, the big question is
02:18what does Australia do about it?
02:20Well, I mean, obviously, firstly, we should say,
02:22leaders should say regarding his recent statements
02:27that they're wrong and that he should stand up for Ukraine.
02:31But Trump would say, well,
02:32what are you going to do about it, Australia?
02:34I don't see any Australian troops
02:36on the battlefield in Ukraine.
02:38I mean, the Australian government isn't even prepared
02:41to have its embassy based in Kyiv.
02:42So we're hardly, you know,
02:45we don't have a lot of bragging rights or influence there.
02:49But then the question, yeah, so then, sorry, you go on.
02:52I just want to know, what do you think they should say?
02:53Because the leaders have been asked today
02:56and they have stood up for Zelensky.
02:59They should do that.
03:00Yeah, they should do that.
03:01Have they gone far enough?
03:02Yeah, well, I mean, you can go as far as you like.
03:06I mean, but ultimately we've got to, we should be saying,
03:10and I think vast majority of the world will be saying this,
03:14is that what Trump is saying about Zelensky
03:16is not only wrong factually, but it's wrong morally.
03:21So he is essentially giving, I mean, he will,
03:26he appears to be at the point of facilitating
03:29a victory for Vladimir Putin over Ukraine.
03:33Now, just contemplate that, it is mind blowing.
03:37But then the question is, what does that mean for us?
03:41And we have to recognise the world has changed,
03:44America has changed.
03:46And we cannot assume that we can rely on America
03:50in the way we have in the past.
03:53Unfortunately, the Orcus submarine deal that Morrison did
03:57and Albanese has gone, you know, continued with,
04:01sacrificed Australian sovereignty,
04:03made us more reliant on the United States than ever before.
04:08And the timing was exquisitely bad,
04:11because we are now more reliant on America than ever
04:15at a time when America is less reliable than ever.
04:19And that's not just a bug, that's a feature.
04:21I mean, Trump is saying to allies, you can't rely on us,
04:26you've got to do more for yourselves,
04:28you've got to stand up for yourself.
04:30So we've got to ask ourselves,
04:33are our current arrangements working?
04:35And I would say they are not fit for purpose any longer.
04:39And we have to spend more money on our own defence,
04:42but on capabilities and systems that we control.
04:46We have to focus on our own sovereignty
04:50and defending ourselves and not running to the,
04:53not just assuming that we're always going to be part
04:56of some coalition with the Americans.
04:58We cannot rely on the new America
05:02in the way we have in the past.
05:03We know your views on Orcus
05:06and particularly the submarine deal,
05:07but I just want to tease out
05:09whether this is a broader view you have
05:12beyond the deal on submarines.
05:15Is the Australia-US alliance
05:19in the same shape it's always been
05:21or has it been radically undermined
05:25by these latest comments by Donald Trump?
05:28Well, it is different, right?
05:30I mean, Trump is transactional.
05:34He is totally focused on American self-interest.
05:39What is his slogan?
05:40America first.
05:41So the, we cannot assume
05:44that America has any altruistic regard for Australia.
05:50You know, we have got to be able to defend ourselves
05:54and that is, and we've got to be prepared
05:56to stand up for ourselves.
05:58Now, you know, I stood up, I stood up to Trump,
06:01I stood up to Obama for that matter,
06:03less colourfully, I guess, or notoriously,
06:06but the reality is we've got to be prepared,
06:08our leaders have got to stand up for Australia
06:11and we've got to have the ability to defend ourselves.
06:16And so instead of focusing on capabilities
06:19that enable us to integrate with the US Navy
06:22in the South China Sea or the broader Pacific,
06:25we have to be thinking about how we defend this continent,
06:30this Australian continent, how we defend ourselves
06:33and how we defend ourselves in our region.
06:36Because we, you know, we could be alone, you know,
06:41we cannot assume that the America
06:46that we're dealing with today,
06:47particularly as it evolves over the years to come,
06:51is going to be prepared to do much,
06:55if anything, to defend us.
06:58And what is your assessment of the way our leaders,
07:01obviously Prime Minister Anthony Albanese,
07:03but Peter Dutton too, are dealing with this alliance?
07:08I mean, they may have backed Zelensky today,
07:11but there's a lot of caution about Donald Trump.
07:14They're obviously not wanting to undermine the alliance.
07:17Do you think they should be saying other things?
07:20They're not, it's not the question of the alliance,
07:22is they're scared of Trump.
07:24They're scared that he will impose tariffs.
07:27And so in other words,
07:28they're doing exactly what a bully wants you to do,
07:30which is to knuckle under, okay?
07:33So it's just timidity and fear, that's all.
07:37The reality is the alliance is different
07:40because the United States has changed, not us.
07:44So, you know, we have got to be able
07:47to appeal to American self-interest,
07:50but at the end of the day,
07:51we have to be able to defend ourselves.
07:54Now, one of the problems we have
07:56is that you have bipartisan support for AUKUS,
08:02particularly AUKUS pillar one with submarines.
08:05It was a Morrison's, you know, terrible decision,
08:09I think a catastrophic decision,
08:10which Albanese for purely political reasons adopted.
08:14And so the difficulty is our political system is failing.
08:19So if there is a hung parliament,
08:21then I hope that the cross bench will ensure
08:27that AUKUS is looked at objectively
08:29and these arrangements are looked at objectively
08:32and held up to the light of real public accountability.
08:36And we can have a proper debate
08:38about what we need to do to defend Australia.
08:41Because at the moment, you've essentially got,
08:45you've got, I mean, bipartisanship is fine.
08:46You know, people always say,
08:48oh, isn't a pity there isn't more bipartisanship.
08:52But when you've got bipartisan error
08:55or bipartisan gaslighting,
08:57that's essentially where we are at the moment.
08:59I mean, we have to recognise the world has changed.
09:04America has changed.
09:06Trump is not an aberration.
09:08He was democratically elected and he has huge following
09:12and he's got a lot of people in government,
09:15in the Congress that agree with him.
09:18And they're, you know, so this is the world we live in.
09:21So you think that the cross bench, and you're right,
09:23all of the polling is suggesting
09:24we'll have a hung parliament.
09:26Of course, you know, the election has to be run and fought.
09:29You've run in elections, you never know what will happen.
09:31But if it is a hung parliament,
09:33you're urging the cross benches to use their negotiation
09:38to shift the support away from AUKUS
09:41and to revisit the way that we approach
09:44and deal with America.
09:45Well, I think we have to, for a start,
09:47we have to have a, what I'd be saying,
09:50and I say this to all parliamentarians,
09:52you know, present and potential.
09:55We have to ask us, we have to be honest
09:57and ask ourselves some serious questions.
09:59I mean, we know that it is most unlikely
10:04that we will ever get any American submarines
10:07because their Navy will not be able to spare them, okay?
10:10They will put the interests of their own Navy first.
10:13We know that the British submarine industrial base
10:16is shambolic.
10:18It's, you know, we know that Britain's defence industry
10:22is in disarray.
10:24We know that Britain is going to have to focus on Europe.
10:27I mean, the consequence of America withdrawing support
10:31from Europe is the Europeans
10:32are gonna have to be more focused there.
10:35So, you know, all of that tells you
10:38that that deal that I think was a massive mistake
10:41in 2021 when Morrison did it,
10:44really it let Australia down shamefully.
10:49It looks even worse today.
10:51And so we've got to look at that clear-eyed,
10:55objectively, don't delude ourselves,
10:58don't worry about offending anybody
11:01and just focus on how we defend this country
11:04and be in a position to do so standing on our own two feet.
11:08Now, just another question, which is very much related.
11:10Donald Trump has frozen foreign aid, as you know.
11:15There are reports today that it stopped vital projects
11:18in this region that we're focused on, the South Pacific.
11:22Some people say it's risking lives
11:23and hurting US efforts to really woo the region,
11:28which they had been previously working on.
11:31Where does that leave us in this region,
11:34especially when it comes to China?
11:36Do you see the US as abandoning the region?
11:40Well, I mean, it's probably too early to say
11:43whether they're abandoning it, but I mean, US aid,
11:46which is America's foreign aid program,
11:49has been frozen, as you said, and they're,
11:52I mean, it appears that they're firing
11:54most of the people in that agency.
11:57That will do, obviously, people will suffer.
12:00People will die.
12:01People, you know, hospitals won't be maintained,
12:04health programs won't be supported.
12:06It will have terrible consequences
12:08in the countries that were receiving that aid,
12:11but at a strategic level, it will do America
12:14enormous damage in terms of its prestige and influence,
12:18and other countries will have to take up the slack
12:21in the Pacific.
12:22We will have to do some of that,
12:24but China will absolutely take advantage of that.
12:27And the, you know, when Trump was first president,
12:32I think Xi Jinping made a mistake in being,
12:36trying to sort of emulate Trump
12:38in belligerence and aggression,
12:40and you had all that wolf warrior diplomacy,
12:42the economic coercion, we suffered from that,
12:45as did other countries.
12:47This time, they were, and that didn't work for them,
12:50but this time, they will be more steady.
12:56They will seek to be, if you like,
12:57the antithesis, the opposite of Trump,
13:00and they will take advantage of this.
13:02So Trump is not only in the process
13:05of giving Putin a win in Ukraine,
13:08but simply by his conduct,
13:10he will enable China to expand its influence.
13:13Now, I'm not suggesting Australia's gonna abandon ANZUS
13:16and become a treaty ally of China,
13:18but there are a lot of countries that are in the middle,
13:22you know, like most of ASEAN, for example,
13:24that will, that have been trying to balance
13:27between the US and China,
13:29and if they feel the US is walking away from them,
13:32they will say, oh, well, we'll, you know,
13:35we'll move more close, we'll move closer to China,
13:38and I'm sure that will happen.