MEP Hannah Neumann (Greens) has just returned from a visit to Damascus following the toppling of the Assad regime last December. During an exclusive interview with DW's Lucia Schulten, Neumann said Syria's new leaders were under increasing pressure to present a concrete timetable for free and fair elections.
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00:00After the fall of the Assad regime, the European Union says it wants to see a Syria-led process of transition,
00:07chiefly on the principles of stability, sovereignty and territorial integrity.
00:13But the new government should also take into account the rights of minorities and women.
00:18Hanna Neumann, who is a Green MEP here in the European Parliament, just came back from Syria.
00:24We caught up with her.
00:26You just came back from Syria. So what did you observe?
00:29How is the current situation in place and how is the country faring under the leadership of the Islamist Hayat Tahrir al-Sham group?
00:38I went to Damascus mainly, so I entered from Beirut over the border to Damascus.
00:44But I made a deliberate effort to meet people from the different parts of Syria,
00:48be it from the Kurdish regions, be it from Aleppo, Homs, Idlib, all these places.
00:54I think the overarching feeling was a duality of hope.
00:58Hope because Assad is gone, because people have the impression they can speak freely.
01:03Hope because they see a chance to really have an impact and a say in rebuilding this country.
01:09And at the same time fear that this window of opportunity might be of a rather short term
01:15and a concern of where this HTS that has been radical, that has kind of become a bit more normal.
01:22But might fall back to radical terms again, where all of this is going to lead.
01:28Did you have any indications because you meant that it might fall back to radical terms again?
01:32There have also been warnings by human rights groups that, especially with regards maybe to an inclusive approach,
01:41also for minorities, that this might prove difficult. Have you experienced anything like that?
01:47I would say it's too early to say. If we look at the language of al-Sharaa,
01:52especially his latest speech that he was giving while I was in Syria, he's ticking all the boxes of our expectations.
01:59He's saying free and fair elections at some point, he's saying national dialogue, he's saying participation of women.
02:05But what people desperately need, and I think pressure for this is mounting, is a concrete timetable.
02:12Because they also know the devil is in the details.
02:15We say legislative council, but who will actually be the person sitting there?
02:21Will HTS be the guardian or will they just be one part like many others?
02:25These will be the tricky questions that decide whether this goes in towards more democracy
02:30or let's say a system where HTS is going to be in unlimited power and people will be consulted only.
02:37So it's like they hear the words, but they still doubt the actions.
02:43And we know this from other contexts as well, and many Syrians are quite experienced people, so they are not naive.
02:50HTS has been a military movement. HTS is from one sect only. HTS has its roots in a religious setting.
02:59And it is never easy for these groups to transform into an open, democratic, rather unhierarchical, deliberative modus operandi.
03:08And if we look at the countries around Syria and their developments after the Arab Spring,
03:13it has proven to be quite difficult to transition towards a democracy.
03:16So many Syrians are very, very clear that this is where they wanted to go and they are willing to invest a lot.
03:23But they are also not naive, knowing that there are a lot of challenges ahead of them
03:28and they don't know yet if HTS is part of the challenge or the solution.
03:31You are a European parliamentarian, so I guess you also travelled there asking yourself, what can the EU do?
03:40And I would like to ask you the same question, what should the European Union do in your opinion?
03:47Syrians have been quite clear saying that they want this to be a Syrian-led process.
03:52And this is also language that has been in UN Resolution 2254, a Syrian-led process.
03:58And I think this is the role that we should play.
04:01The challenge then is, well, what is it that the Syrians want?
04:04How do we find that out and how can we then support that?
04:08And this is the process that remains to be seen.
04:11Where they have been all clear on messaging is that the sanctions are a problem.
04:16They want us to keep the sanctions against Assad, that's quite clear.
04:20Many say you can also keep the sanctions on HTS until you see where they develop,
04:25but we really need to get rid of the sectoral sanctions.
04:27So sanctions on oil exports, because that is how they can make money for reconstruction.
04:32Sanctions on electricity, because they need electricity and we need to repair the grids, basically,
04:38to allow them to have electricity.
04:40Sanctions on finance, so that people can send remittances home without a problem.
04:45And here we clearly see the different timelines.
04:47I mean, HTS and his allies, they took Syria in only two weeks.
04:52We are discussing whether we should lift the sanctions or suspend the sanctions for three to four weeks.
04:59And now that we have a political agreement that we will suspend,
05:02we still need to discuss the technical details for time spent unknown.
05:07And this is sometimes a bit difficult for Syrians to understand,
05:09because what they really need is economic reconstruction,
05:13so that people can return from the camps and they can rebuild their livelihoods.
05:17Let's maybe talk a bit about the sanctions, because as you mentioned,
05:20the EU foreign ministers have decided to pause them,
05:26but it remains relatively unclear what this actually means.
05:31Or would you have like closer insights, like which areas would be paused,
05:35when would this pause enter into force?
05:39Do you know what this means?
05:41And also what you mentioned that there is a certain frustration at place.
05:45How has this been transferred to you towards the sanctions?
05:50So they are discussing on the sectoral sanctions.
05:53And the discussion is whether we suspend everything that isn't related to repressive equipment or arms deals.
06:01So when it comes to finance, this is part of the discussion.
06:04Electricity is part of the discussion. Infrastructure, also medical equipment.
06:08This is all part of the discussion of what should be suspended or lifted.
06:12So now my understanding is that there is an agreement that there should be a suspension,
06:18not a complete lifting of sanctions.
06:21Meaning that we give al-Sharan's government the benefit of the doubt.
06:25So as long as we think it's moving in the right direction,
06:29we support with lifting sanctions so that you can also develop economically.
06:34But in case that things turn badly, we still have the option to basically bring the sanctions back in.
06:41Why it takes so long?
06:43Well, apparently there might be different considerations on how fast we should lift these sanctions
06:49when it comes to HTAs amongst member states.
06:52With Italy, to my understanding, being more open, like let's just lift them all right away.
06:58And Germany and others being a bit more reluctant and trying to keep some of the sticks
07:03that we still have to ensure that HTAs moves into the right direction.
07:08Do you think, because as you said, it is the approach to keep the stick,
07:12to be able to say if things are not going in a way that the European Union is wishing it to go,
07:18that they can then put back on the sanctions, so to say.
07:23Did you get any impression that keeping that stick is necessary?
07:27Given the assessment of Syrians and how other kind of transitional situations developed in the region,
07:37I think we have no other option than to support HTAs if they walk the right way.
07:43Because there is just HTAs. It's not that we could pick a leader that we would like.
07:47It's just HTAs is in power.
07:49We should now invest everything we can to make sure that they walk into the right direction.
07:53But we shouldn't take that for granted.
07:55So we should always be prepared in our policy, in our thinking, in our dealing with this regime,
08:01that maybe it might go wrong and then we have to also react very fast.
08:05The European Union is also still giving humanitarian aid to Syria.
08:10I think for 2025 it will be 235 million euros.
08:17You talked about the economic development.
08:20What do you think is needed there?
08:22How is the situation in place for the people?
08:27The humanitarian situation today inside Syria is the worst ever.
08:33So it is clearly needed that we continue to send humanitarian aid.
08:38There are still millions of people in camps.
08:40Whole cities are being bombed, so people can't return.
08:44It's unclear who owns the houses, who can return.
08:48All of this will also be a source of conflict in the future.
08:51So we need to make sure that we don't even intensify these looming conflicts
08:56by making people basically starve.
08:59So we need to continue sending humanitarian aid,
09:02knowing that the only medium to long-term way out of humanitarian aid
09:07will be economic reconstruction.
09:09So continue sending humanitarian aid,
09:12but also making sure that we support this country to come back on its own feet,
09:18to generate its own resources, for example through selling oil.
09:22And also supporting Syrians who are in the diaspora,
09:25who want to go back and rebuild their country.
09:28Because they will be most likely the most successful businessmen and women
09:33that this country can have.
09:35For the economic reconstruction, do you see a role for the European Union?
09:41Do you think that the Syrian people you talked to wish for that?
09:47Well, I mean, first of all, companies based in the European Union
09:53have played a role before the civil war in Syria.
09:57For example, there is a huge German company that was responsible for the electricity grid.
10:02And the best option would be that now they can go back
10:05and just rehabilitate and maintain all these facilities
10:09so that electricity can come back.
10:12Then, Syrians, they really like European quality.
10:16They like German things, they like French things.
10:19So I think they also see a role for companies to invest,
10:23to come back to Syria, to also help rebuild streets,
10:27to help rebuild logistical infrastructure.
10:30I mean, all of that is something that Europeans are good at.
10:33It's kind of close.
10:35And we should really not underestimate the power,
10:38the economic power that lies within Syrians
10:41that went abroad to European countries,
10:43that speak the language, that they understand the system,
10:45that they are highly qualified,
10:47and that they now want to rebuild Syria,
10:50either by returning or by just having this bridge function.
10:54And here I think the key role should be to ensure
10:57that our policies do not keep them from being able to do that,
11:00so that we can really lever the power that lies within these bridge builders,
11:05Syrians that came to the European Union
11:07and that now really strive to rebuild their country.
11:10And they will be a huge source of economic potential for Syria,
11:14but also for European-Syrian cooperation in the economic field.
11:18My understanding is that asylum seekers cannot go back to Syria
11:23because they would lose their status,
11:25or people that have been granted asylum, they cannot go back.
11:29Is there anything that you, that the European Union,
11:33can do in this regard?
11:35Because it is national law, or it is enshrined in national law.
11:39So what is your idea on this?
11:42Well, I mean, I have been one of those that in week one said,
11:46we need to have one discussion about migration,
11:48that is allowing these people to temporarily go back
11:51without losing their status,
11:53because it would help us with the economic reconstruction,
11:55it would help us with the democratic process,
11:57because the Syrian democratic opposition
11:59mostly went to the European Union countries.
12:01And also when we think about voluntary return,
12:04I mean, you want to go back and see what it looks like
12:06before you bring your whole family.
12:08So with all of these things,
12:10allowing them to temporarily return without losing their status
12:14would just help, I mean, their situation,
12:17but also what we want to see.
12:20So we started the discussion,
12:22and at least when it comes to Germany,
12:24there has now been an announcement that Syrians
12:26who are not yet German citizens
12:30will be allowed to go back for two weeks
12:33without losing their claims.
12:36It's still a bit bureaucratic,
12:37Germany is always a bit bureaucratic,
12:39so they would have to inform,
12:41and then they can go back for two weeks,
12:44and maybe just going back once is not enough,
12:46but it's a start.
12:47What we have reached from the European level,
12:49and this is the kind of influence that also I myself have,
12:52is that the European Union clearly communicated
12:55to all member states, this is possible,
12:57and it's in our interest, so please do it.
13:00And now I know for Germany, they are trying to implement it,
13:03I hope other EU member states will follow,
13:06because it's just in everybody's interest,
13:08and it's so nonsensical not to do it.
13:12Maybe a last question,
13:13because there's also the question of
13:18the jurisdictional or the judicial roll-up.
13:22It's such an important thing to do.
13:24Yeah, what do you see there?
13:26Is this happening?
13:28Does Syria have also the means to do this?
13:31Shahrain, in his first speeches,
13:33has spoken a lot about economic reconstruction and security,
13:36but I think it has become quite clear for him,
13:39and this has changed in his last speech,
13:41that transitional justice,
13:42so giving the country a chance to heal
13:45will be crucial for success of whatever also he wants to do with it,
13:51but also for Syrians.
13:53The horror of Assad, it's incredible.
13:57I mean, we still have between 100 and 2,000 people missing,
14:01more than 500,000 died.
14:03I was myself in Sidnaya prison, which is such a brutal...
14:08It's a machinery of sadistic killing, seriously,
14:11and it still haunts me until today.
14:14The few hours I was there with the former detainee,
14:16just explaining the procedures,
14:19and there will be no future for Syria
14:21if there are no ways and means to heal.
14:23Well, I mean, this was one of the topics
14:25that all Syrians asked me when I was there,
14:27was how did you do it in Germany?
14:29How did you do it after World War II?
14:31How did you do it after the Stasi?
14:33Also because there were these close links
14:35between Stasi and the security services of Assad.
14:40And what is quite clear, I think that the highest level,
14:43so Assad and the highest level,
14:45they will have to undergo some form
14:47of international justice tribunals,
14:50but then what do you do with all the other layers below?
14:53And there it really needs to have a national dialogue.
14:55I mean, to what level do we deal with them?
14:58What do we do with people who are victims
15:00and offenders at the same time?
15:02If we give, let's say, some kind of pardons
15:04for some lower level people,
15:06but we also need compensation for the victims,
15:08otherwise the ones get away,
15:10and the others are still stuck with all their suffering
15:12and all their problems.
15:14So here, I really think it's time,
15:16and urgently time,
15:18to start a national dialogue
15:20where Syrians,
15:22especially former detainees
15:24or families of former detainees
15:26and missing persons,
15:28want to see this going.
15:30What we start seeing at the moment,
15:32and this is indeed a bit varying,
15:34is revenge killings.
15:36So, of course, sometimes you kind of know
15:38who tortured your son.
15:40And if you don't see a legal procedure
15:42in which this will be taken care of,
15:46I don't say I understand it,
15:48but still I do, to some degree,
15:50that people then have the feeling
15:52they need to take things into their own hands,
15:54which is why we so desperately need
15:56a timeline and a procedure.
15:58And we also see that
16:00sometimes files where there's information
16:02on missing persons,
16:04or even people that worked for Assad
16:06that could have this information, they disappear.
16:08And it's difficult to understand
16:10for what reasons, but victims are very
16:12worried about that, because these are
16:14sometimes the only sources of information
16:16to find out the truth.
16:18Will Syrians be able to do that by themselves?
16:20Well, no.
16:22Once the European Union comes in,
16:24are there any initiatives,
16:26maybe international justice initiatives,
16:28that have been invited?
16:30So, I mean,
16:32there are UN mechanisms
16:34that were set up to deal with this
16:36in the time when Assad was still in power.
16:38And Syrians are a bit frustrated
16:40how slowly they are adapting
16:42to this new setting, where they really should
16:44and can and have to work inside the country.
16:46We shouldn't double these efforts,
16:48but we should help them become faster
16:50and, I think, see where we can complement that.
16:52One, by sharing
16:54the lessons from the European Union,
16:56what we did in Germany,
16:58what Spain did, what Romania did.
17:00I mean, we have so many examples
17:02in our own history. Also, how you deal
17:04with that as a society in the longer term,
17:06how you treat victims, all of that.
17:08So here, I really think we can come in
17:10with our expertise, and HDS
17:12and the Foreign Ministry have set up a unit
17:14where they now seek information
17:16from different other countries.
17:18Also Guatemala, I mean,
17:20we have all these examples.
17:22So here, I think, with expertise to start with,
17:24to inform a Syrian process
17:26where then they make their decision
17:28on how they want to do that.
17:30And then, again, I think we should come in with technical expertise.
17:32In Germany, for example, we know how to store
17:34all these files, how to digitalize them,
17:36how to open them to the public
17:38and also the reference systems
17:40that were built up,
17:42for example, to detach
17:44the informant from the information
17:46in Germany.
17:48It looks pretty much the same as what Assad built up.
17:50So also here, just this exchange
17:52of knowledge, I really think
17:54we should work on that, and I'm in touch
17:56with the organizations in Germany
17:58who also really would like to support
18:00and play their part, and matching these two things
18:02is something that the European Union
18:04and especially with their representation
18:06in Syria could indeed do.
18:08Ms. Neumann, I think we have to leave it here for today.
18:10Thank you very much for your time.
18:12Thank you for your time.