Brady Corbet ('The Brutalist'), Coralie Fargeat ('The Substance'), Denis Villeneuve ('Dune: Part Two'), Edward Berger ('Conclave'), RaMell Ross ('Nickel Boys') and Ridley Scott ('Gladiator II') join The Hollywood Reporter for our Director Roundtable.
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00:00I want to know what people, what you all do with takes, like how many takes?
00:03Are you, you all like, I'll do 30 takes if that's what it takes?
00:06Or are you, like do you just put it in the hands of three?
00:10One?
00:11Yeah, yeah.
00:11One?
00:12It's got four cameras.
00:13Yeah, yeah.
00:15That doesn't count.
00:30Welcome to the Hollywood Reporter Directors Roundtable.
00:44We have a phenomenal group of filmmakers here with us today.
00:48So let's dive in.
00:49Ridley, when you have one of those days where you have the 12 cameras and the 500 extras
00:54and you're in the Coliseum, how do you let everybody know that you've begun?
00:58Simple as that.
01:01At BBC, I did live drama where you have six cameras and they're all joined by a wire and
01:08you're doing a lot, you're on the air live with 13 million people watching.
01:12That was a big audience for me.
01:13It was a show called Zed Cars and that's where I learned about the six multi-camera.
01:18And the problem is at that point, BBC would pay me as a director 75 pounds a week after
01:25tax, which is a little bit more than your breakfast this morning, right?
01:29And then one day somebody said to me, you want to do a commercial?
01:31And I caught the wave of incoming new thing called commercial advertising.
01:37And my first day of shooting, I escaped from BBC and snuck out and they gave me 200 pounds
01:43at the end of the day.
01:44So I knew there was something seriously wrong.
01:47So I left and did advertising for the next 20 years.
01:50Well, talking about beginnings, does anybody have like a day one ritual, a thing that you
01:55when you're starting out to set the mood?
01:57Have a panic attack?
02:00I tried to, but I tested positive for COVID.
02:02On day one?
02:03Yeah.
02:03Oh, geez.
02:04What did you do?
02:05I want everyone to feel sorry for me.
02:08Everyone, please.
02:10I directed from a tent or from a trailer.
02:13Yeah.
02:13But we were fine.
02:14I just wanted to cut the ice with some depressing worst case scenario maybe for production.
02:21I mean, anybody else?
02:23Things that you do on day one to help you kind of settle in?
02:27I love to.
02:29It's an old, it's embarrassing thing.
02:31But I love to listen to François Truffaut music of La Nuit Américaine before the...
02:39It's an old ritual.
02:40Are you serious?
02:41Yeah.
02:41That's really sweet.
02:42Like in your...
02:43No, no, no, no, no.
02:43But it's like it's...
02:45I know you will laugh at me, Ridley.
02:46I'm embarrassed.
02:48It's something that it's like since...
02:50It's one of my...
02:51When I was a film student and it's just the fire of cinema.
02:56I love that song.
02:57I love François Truffaut.
02:57Are you on headphones or is it like playing for the whole casting crew?
03:00No, no, no, no.
03:00Not for the crew.
03:01Just for me.
03:01No, just for you.
03:02Just for you.
03:02I don't know.
03:03Is it fast paced?
03:04Like what's the rhythm?
03:05What's the vibe of it?
03:07I don't know.
03:07It's just like a kind of little melody that...
03:10Hum it.
03:10Go on, hum it.
03:12Hum it.
03:13Sing it now.
03:14Go on.
03:14I will not dare to do that, sir.
03:18Ridley Scott.
03:20Let's cut that out, okay?
03:22There will be some montage.
03:25Coralie, what about you?
03:26Do you have a thing that you like to do when you begin?
03:29Yeah.
03:29I always have a little thank you and good wishes for myself before I start shooting.
03:39I like also to have a little word for everyone like starting the journey
03:46because I know it's going to be a tough one usually.
03:49I like to gather the crew and just have a little word to wish everyone a good shooting.
03:54I feel like there's this idea that a director is always confident and in control.
03:59One of the things, Edward, that I like about your movie is it's about doubt.
04:02Your lead character is a cardinal who's going through a sort of doubt.
04:07I think directors like religious leaders, we assume, have it all figured out.
04:13Is there room for doubt when you're a director?
04:15Are you allowed to have doubt?
04:17Privately.
04:18Privately, yeah.
04:19You don't discuss that you're...
04:20And if you show any form of doubt with an actor, he'll eat you alive.
04:24You can't let that happen.
04:26You've got to not let them get in.
04:28Are there any actors in here I'm hoping to talk to and get...
04:30Brady.
04:32Formerly.
04:32Do you agree?
04:33If the director looks a little anxious, does that bother you?
04:37I mean, you know, it's hard for me to say.
04:40I did it at such a young age and I was working with extraordinary people.
04:44I was working with Michael Haneke and Lars von Trier.
04:47I think that people always ask me how that informed my own process and my own films.
04:54I think that it just was very demystifying for me because I saw a lot of people that I admired
05:00very much that were having real crises that they were dealing with.
05:06And so I think that when I started to face a lot of my own, that I didn't worry about it too much.
05:14I don't do the job performatively.
05:16I don't think that much about how people perceive me.
05:19I'm mostly just trying to get it done.
05:22But you have to turn up fully prepped here.
05:25Absolutely.
05:27If you don't, then you're going to be truly anxious.
05:30Because the actor will spot it in a heartbeat.
05:32But you can have doubt and faith, you know?
05:37Yeah.
05:37I mean, it's always good to be on thin ice because then it means you're paying attention.
05:41There's nothing worse than getting a perfect script and everyone relaxes
05:45and then you put it together and somehow it's dull.
05:48You get a script which needs a bit of work and everyone's paying attention.
05:52I wouldn't try this, by the way,
05:54but the weaker the script just means the better the film.
05:56But everyone's really paying attention.
05:59You can relax.
06:00Everyone thinks you're having a great time.
06:02You're doing a great job.
06:03You look at the film, it's boring.
06:05Right?
06:05Yeah.
06:07If I have doubt, I can allow me the space to say to everybody back off
06:17and just space to think and not freak out about that.
06:20Do you shout?
06:23Very rarely.
06:25Rarely.
06:25I doubt it.
06:26But when I shout...
06:28No, no.
06:28But if I swear as a French Canadian, they know that they are in trouble.
06:32If I say tabarnak, then usually it's like...
06:34Canadians get angry.
06:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:37No, I don't.
06:37I'm not.
06:38You?
06:38Do you shout?
06:38Yeah.
06:39Do you shout?
06:42That said, all of this gets easier the older you get.
06:45Right now, I don't care about anything.
06:47I don't worry about anything.
06:48I'm fully relaxed.
06:50The film goes like lightning.
06:52But you go back 30 years ago.
06:54Yeah, I would walk in the morning and be very worried.
06:56Even if I prepared the hell out of it, I'd still be concerned about...
07:00I learned about talking to actors last.
07:03It's the last thing I learned.
07:04Because I didn't go to drama school.
07:06I didn't go to film school.
07:07You were from art.
07:08I was a designer.
07:09And one day at BBC, they said, do you want to do a director's course?
07:14I said, yes.
07:16Three weeks later, I was given a script saying, there it is.
07:18Don't fuck it up.
07:19That was it.
07:19I was on live.
07:21So I was terrified.
07:22Edward, since it was your movie that provoked this question,
07:25where did you come down on the issue of doubt in directing?
07:27I think it's absolutely fine.
07:28It's part of it.
07:30Yes, I mean, you need to be prepared.
07:33I mean, I can have it because I'm completely prepared.
07:36I know, theoretically, I have a total plan.
07:39And I theoretically know what I'm doing.
07:41Then everything changes because actors come in,
07:44and weather comes in, and all these elements.
07:49And then you adapt to it.
07:51And see something better.
07:53And then you go for it.
07:54And sometimes you don't know the answer right away.
07:57And then, like Denise says, then it's about taking space.
08:00And I think I've learned that people really respect that.
08:03They say, oh, great.
08:05He has a weakness.
08:06And that's fine.
08:08Let's give him space.
08:09Let's go away for five minutes or half an hour.
08:13We are in trouble.
08:15Total trouble.
08:16No, no.
08:18So I think I love that.
08:20I think I feel like people want to help you out, in a way.
08:24I mean, I saw this interview with Tom Hanks once,
08:27where he said, like, Steven Spielberg has this thing.
08:29He comes in the morning.
08:30He said, listen, guys, you've got to help me.
08:32I don't know how to do this.
08:33Of course he knows how to do it, but somehow.
08:36But bring everyone in.
08:39Make everyone feel they can do their best work.
08:42Coralie, why did you decide horror was the genre that you
08:45were going to tell this story in?
08:47To me, I wouldn't call it horror.
08:50I would call it more of genre film,
08:52which is, to me, very wide in the scope going from sci-fi
08:56to action to everything that is not grounded into reality.
09:03And basically, that's how I grew up loving films.
09:07Everything that would allow me to escape real life,
09:10which I hated, which I felt totally unadapted to
09:13and very bored into.
09:16So especially for that film and the previous one,
09:21that's really where I found my freedom
09:23and where I felt powerful and where I felt fully capable
09:27to express myself in a way where there are no boundaries.
09:33Also where I love to go very much into the excess
09:36and kind of touch my part of craziness and things
09:41that I have to handle in my real everyday life.
09:45And especially for the theme of the movie,
09:48it felt totally relevant for it to be as excessive
09:54as what I wanted to say and make the audience feel
09:58that excess and feel that craziness.
10:02So it's even not a question that I choose.
10:06It's just what I do.
10:07And that's the film I love.
10:09And I think I'm more to the theme that are relevant
10:14to express into that genre.
10:16It's kind of the other way around.
10:18Did you ever see a film with John Frankenheimer,
10:20I think, did it called Seconds?
10:22Yeah.
10:23And it reminds me of that because it's really
10:27about a man who's obsessed with staying young.
10:30And the Demi story in the bottom line
10:32is obsessed with staying young, correct?
10:34Yeah, absolutely.
10:36Does anybody relate to what Corley's saying about genre
10:38and about that being a way that they can access
10:42stories or ideas?
10:44I do.
10:44I think, have anyone made a documentary before?
10:47Yes, I do.
10:48Yeah?
10:48No?
10:49Well, there's something about the documentary genre
10:51that it predisposes you to truth.
10:54Like when you go to watch a doc,
10:56you're like, I'm encountering truth.
10:58And that's not something that people experience
11:00even when they're walking down the street.
11:01They're not like, that's true.
11:02That dog's true.
11:03That bird's true.
11:04And so it's interesting.
11:06Well, it was interesting in the first film
11:07I made, Hell County, this morning, this evening
11:09to situate a certain type of black aesthetics,
11:12a certain type of like open poetic image
11:14in this space of truth.
11:16Because if someone approaches it with that,
11:17then when they see this image,
11:19that's like strategically ambiguous.
11:21You don't really know what's happening.
11:22You're forced to sort of complete the image
11:23with their imagination.
11:24Then you go out into the world and see the world
11:27with that same, hopefully, ambiguity
11:29and you're sort of less absolutely judging people,
11:32for lack of a better way to say it.
11:33So if anyone hasn't had the opportunity
11:35to see Rommel's movie Nickel Boys,
11:37it's shot from the point of view of the characters,
11:39like to the point where the actors
11:40are actually wearing cameras.
11:41Is that right?
11:42Yeah, they wear the cameras.
11:43It's not the most, I mean, maybe 10% of the times.
11:46Okay.
11:47But they are essentially camera operators.
11:49There's like Snorricam rigs, right?
11:51Yeah, there's a Snorricam rig for-
11:53The sequence in the bar.
11:55Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:56And I guess it's almost all of David's scenes,
11:58but the majority, like the primary idea is like,
12:00how do you make the camera an organ,
12:02bring it into your body
12:04and kind of shoot from a personal poetics?
12:06So the first film I made in the South is,
12:09like I said, kind of like black poetics,
12:10like very atmospheric.
12:12And I wondered like when making this film,
12:14what if the two main characters had their own cameras
12:16to make their own Hell Counties,
12:18their own versions of first person films?
12:21And that seems to be really interesting,
12:22specifically in a case in which it's based on a true story
12:26of the Dozier School for Boys,
12:27in which boys were just straight and murdered
12:30in North Florida.
12:31It closed in 2011, started to exhume bodies in 2013.
12:36Yeah, what an interesting idea to give life
12:40to those who lost it,
12:41by allowing us to vicariously see from their perspective.
12:45What was that like for your actors to be,
12:47I mean, I think of actors,
12:49actors know how to work with cameras
12:51when they're experiencing them in a certain way.
12:53It feels like that would be very different to have them.
12:56You're shooting what they're looking at.
12:58Yeah, I think a lot of it's hindsight
12:59because doing things like this,
13:02we articulate our films,
13:03I believe to ourselves in our own ways.
13:05And then when we're asked tons and tons of questions,
13:07you're forced to excavate it
13:08and really-
13:09You're like, why did I do that exactly?
13:10Yeah, well, never why,
13:12but find new ways of expressing it
13:14to be more meaningful to other people
13:16because we know why it's meaningful to us,
13:18but to exchange the meaning to another person,
13:22that communication language needs to be specific.
13:23It can't just be like, I wanted to make this film.
13:27So in the process of all of us sort of excavating
13:30why we were feeling the things we were feeling
13:32when we were filming,
13:34one thing the actor said,
13:35two things and I'll be short,
13:37one was that the exchange from ingenue to the audience
13:42through the camera lens and through the film medium
13:45was something that explored a version of black love
13:49that she hadn't quite seen yet in cinema
13:52because traditionally,
13:53when you're watching two characters,
13:55it's between them.
13:56And of course, you get close with the camera,
13:57they're looking at each other.
13:59But the way in which some could argue
14:01a lot of discipline has been expressed
14:04in black families in cinema is through discipline.
14:08It's like, you guys come in, don't stay out late.
14:10Like, I love you, be safe.
14:12But to see the gaze from the grandmother to the boy
14:16is something that gives you access
14:17to something that's fundamentally human.
14:20But they had an issue, obviously,
14:21because the camera is not something
14:23that people traditionally feel comfortable with.
14:25And so they had to sort of convert the loneliness
14:27they felt by not being able to really be tactile with people
14:31to the loneliness of the characters,
14:32which then gave them a way to really embody
14:35what they needed to.
14:37So they say.
14:39Yeah, it's like the audience gets to be hugged by ingenue.
14:42That's kind of a cool sensation.
14:44I was just thinking about when day players
14:47would come in to work with you.
14:48Because one thing with the principal actors
14:50who come in and it becomes a sense memory thing
14:55where they start to get the hang of it.
14:57But I was thinking that it must've been
14:59incredibly challenging to show every single person
15:03in the movie the ropes.
15:04Like you are interfacing with the camera
15:06in a way that generally you're specifically told not to.
15:08Yeah, but I feel like everyone here
15:10would have so much fun doing it
15:12because then I'm like, treat the camera like a character.
15:14I want you to look at, I want you to glance at the camera.
15:17And then they're just playing a different game.
15:19You know, they're actually more free to be on the playground
15:22than to be in a place in which the choreography
15:26is a little bit more traditional, I guess.
15:28How much trial and error did you have to get this?
15:30This sounds incredible.
15:31How long did you shoot for?
15:34We had 33 days, but then we lost four to COVID.
15:37So it got squished down, but-
15:40Did you have any preamble to take each actor
15:43through what they're going to do before they hit the floor?
15:45We didn't have time to rehearse.
15:46You didn't, yeah.
15:47No.
15:48Good for you.
15:49It's an incredibly short movie.
15:52And so, I mean, you said it earlier,
15:55from the first frame on,
15:56you know you're in the hand of a great filmmaker.
15:59You know, like you watch it and you're like,
16:00oh, you know, and it's poetry.
16:02You know, the whole thing is poetry.
16:04It doesn't matter if a shot makes sense or is too long.
16:07Like, you just immediately,
16:09like the shot with the suit on the car.
16:12Yeah.
16:13You said earlier, it doesn't, you know,
16:14it doesn't, you know, it doesn't need to be in the movie.
16:19But it's a shot I really remember.
16:23Yeah, exactly.
16:23I really remember and it's poetry.
16:25Like Japanese, it's a very, an idea.
16:28Each shot is a specific idea that, like bricks.
16:32I love that.
16:33And I love feeling when you, as an audience member,
16:36when you're in your movie, in all of our movies,
16:37I mean, I don't know of mine, but in all of your movies,
16:40I feel like, oh, I know that the people who made it,
16:43they take me by their hand and they direct me.
16:46Not the actors only, but they direct me.
16:49Like they're sort of, I'm in your hands
16:52and I hand myself over to your timing.
16:54Also your sense of timing or your sense of,
16:56especially yours also, you know,
16:58your sense of timing is like, you know,
17:03I love it going to a cinema and going,
17:05oh, okay, it's a different time count.
17:08I'm going to settle into Brady's world.
17:10I just love the feeling of awe.
17:12Like he, like, I mean, we're talking about everyone's film,
17:15but I mean, you have a couple shots in your film that are,
17:18I mean, moments that are un-fucking-believable,
17:22especially the opening that goes from the bottom of the ship
17:25to the top.
17:26And with, I guess that's why it's the opening,
17:28but like there's something about the immigrant experience
17:31that is expressed through that,
17:33that is just the most sweeping emotion or sentiment
17:38that I think I've seen.
17:40Like I've never experienced anything.
17:42It was so claustrophobic until you find out
17:45the Statue of Liberty.
17:46But before that, I was like, I didn't,
17:48I was totally disoriented.
17:50I, to be honest, I didn't understand at first
17:52that I was in a boat.
17:54I thought I was like in some kind of,
17:55I didn't know he was brought to a torture chamber.
17:58I was really, I was like suffocating.
18:03I was like, and when he came out,
18:06I felt like totally manipulated in a great way.
18:09But having been through an experience,
18:12quite intense, yeah.
18:13Right from the start.
18:14But that's one of the nicest things is perspective,
18:17you know, as a director.
18:19I'm really in Adrian Brody's perspective,
18:21even though you have, yeah,
18:25it's very long evolving shots and so forth.
18:27I'm always with him and see it through.
18:29I'm always with Timothy in your movie,
18:31you know, sort of seeing it through his eyes.
18:33And also your perspective, of course, is very intense.
18:37I grew up with an architect in my family.
18:39My uncle John Pfeiffer went to Taliesin West,
18:43which was Frank Lloyd Wright's school in Arizona.
18:46And while he went there, he lived with my mother and I,
18:50because I had a single mother and I was the only child.
18:52And so architecture was a part of my life
18:54from a very young age.
18:55But one thing that I think is very interesting
18:57about Frank Lloyd Wright is that,
18:58you know, all of the residences predominantly,
19:01you would enter not into a massive foyer,
19:05but into a space that is, you know,
19:08six or seven foot ceilings,
19:09a sort of antechamber that would really kind of
19:12force your perspective,
19:13because it was a place for you to hang up your coats
19:15and take off your shoes.
19:16And then, you know, you would go up a very narrow corridor
19:19and then suddenly, pow, like there's the space.
19:22And there's something about, you know,
19:25that the dynamic is so powerful.
19:28And so I think that this is, it's not something,
19:32I mean, this film happens to be about an architect,
19:35but for me, cinema is inherently architectural.
19:38I do think that you are guiding people through a space,
19:42like you really are sculpting in time.
19:44Since we're talking about time,
19:47I'm curious how you all feel about the fact
19:51that people's attention spans are getting shorter
19:53when you work in a medium where you're making art
19:55that's two to three hours long.
19:58How do you grapple with your audience's ability
20:01to pay attention?
20:02You try not to do three hours.
20:08And every cut is always too long,
20:11and you know that, and you have to sit down
20:13and actually decide.
20:15You've got to decide.
20:15If you're going to run for three hours,
20:16you'd better be worth it.
20:18It's what I call the bum ache factor.
20:21Audiences have a certain kind of tolerance.
20:23Oh, bum ache, like sitting on your bum?
20:25As soon as you start doing that, you're in trouble.
20:26Oh, bum ache.
20:27There's the physical time
20:30and there's the mental time of a movie.
20:32And we all, I'm sure around this,
20:34we all saw five minutes short film
20:36that will last forever.
20:38And we all saw three hours movie that went like that.
20:42It's about emotion.
20:43I think it's about the emotional impact of the film.
20:47If you lose, if the audience lost track
20:50of the emotional path, then you're fucked.
20:52Time dilates if you do it right.
20:57No, I think all the movies pretty much around the table
21:00were pretty, what you call, long.
21:03And I found it was also great to have movies
21:07that take their time to kind of present a world,
21:12present a universe, and also present things
21:15that are more radical.
21:16I'm thinking about yours, of course,
21:18which is like, yeah, more than three hours
21:21and a half with this information.
21:23I think it's also great to have things
21:24that are out of the regular format
21:26because we have so many things
21:29that kind of look like also the same.
21:32Like I like to see things that are different.
21:36And I'm not so sure about the audience
21:38having less attention time
21:41because I think it really depends about,
21:44yeah, what you put them into
21:46and how you make their journey be immersive
21:50and be, as you were saying,
21:52like not feeling that time passes.
21:55And also think that it's also okay
21:57to sometimes be bored during a film.
22:00You don't have to be all the time excited.
22:02There are moments that can go down.
22:04And I think what matters is what stays with you
22:06after the movie's finished, to me at least.
22:10I think I also don't know about the attention span.
22:13Maybe I'm an eternal optimist,
22:15but I think it'll swing the other way.
22:18And if you give the audience,
22:20if they hear, there's this guy, Brady Corbet,
22:23he made a movie that's almost four hours.
22:25It's got an intermission.
22:27It's 70 millimeter.
22:28It somehow becomes, I've got to go see it
22:31because it's like a spectacle.
22:33I don't get that on television.
22:36And I don't get your movie on television or yours.
22:38Like I don't have, I know immediately Dune part two,
22:43I saw one, but I want to go see two
22:46because it's going to be another spectacle.
22:47I can only get it there.
22:49I really believe that.
22:50And then if the emotionality is right,
22:52it can be two and a half hours or four.
22:54It doesn't really matter.
22:55I think part of the selling point of your movie
22:57of getting people to the theater will be its length.
23:00Yeah, I think the engine is,
23:03you should be talking about the engine of the material,
23:05whether it's four hours or two hours.
23:07You better have in that engine,
23:09the reason to want to go to the next step.
23:13That's called drama.
23:14So you've either got to leave them with what's going to happen.
23:17You do not ever want anyone to be bored.
23:20In my world, no way.
23:23So you've always got to leave,
23:24even though a scene is designed to be long,
23:27it better be interesting.
23:28So you're going to go, what's happening next?
23:30That's the fundamentals of theater and film.
23:33You ain't got a movie.
23:35I will say though,
23:35I think that the fundamentals of theater and film
23:38need to adapt to the complexity of the times.
23:41I feel like the way in which-
23:42But aren't people getting more and more simplistic?
23:45That's a challenge.
23:46True.
23:46I mean, everything you see now-
23:47We're also dumbing down the aesthetics to match.
23:49Well, there's a big dumbing down.
23:52I'm not saying at this table,
23:53there's any dumbing down whatsoever,
23:55but there's a lot of big dumbing down,
23:56which is nothing to watch.
23:58And flash cut and some usual suspects on,
24:02mostly on the platforms, on TV,
24:04and they're made to stream.
24:06And in a funny kind of way,
24:07it's a pity because it's watering down
24:10what we're trying to do.
24:12Denis, there's such a huge
24:14and really remarkable cast in Dune.
24:17Can you talk a little bit about assembling the cast
24:20and what was important to you?
24:22Frankly, I don't like that question
24:23because it's a boring...
24:25My answer would be boring.
24:26I mean, it's like they have specific characters
24:28that those characters have been beloved for 60 years.
24:32The book is well known.
24:33Those are big shoes to fill.
24:35So I just went through the actors
24:37that I felt that had the necessary charisma
24:39that will bring the qualities I was looking for.
24:43And I went, those movies are not easy to shoot.
24:47I mean, it's like no movie are easy to shoot,
24:50but we deal with tons of VFX.
24:52I need people that will show up on the day
24:53and know their job
24:54and give the performance needed
24:58because it's the movie that I tried to do
25:01is it's sci-fi, but it's not really sci-fi.
25:04The science fiction is behind.
25:06It's like in the backdrop.
25:07It's about the human interaction,
25:09the human drama between those characters.
25:10So I needed people that can focus on the day
25:13and deliver strong performances
25:15that, yeah, that will be this...
25:17Yeah, without that, I would have no movie.
25:21We had Zendaya for Actress Roundtable
25:23and she talked about you were shooting...
25:26I think there was just one hour a day
25:28where you had the right light
25:29to shoot a particular sequence
25:31in the desert.
25:31Do you know the sequence that I'm talking about?
25:33Can you tell us a little bit about that?
25:35The thing is that I went a bit dogmatic with the light.
25:38We shot exclusively in the desert
25:41with the natural light,
25:42which meant that...
25:44And we didn't want to compromise aesthetically.
25:46So it meant that some scenes were shot over a week
25:50every night at the end of that
25:52between those two hours
25:52when going back there
25:54and doing the coverage, different coverage.
25:56And I put a lot of pressure on the actors,
25:58but my cinematographer, Fred Fraser and I,
26:01we were...
26:02I was in love with the idea
26:03to bring some kind of naturalism
26:05to the screen as much as possible
26:08to feel close to nature.
26:09And it meant that...
26:12Actually, we had to prep
26:13like anything I've done before.
26:18The way we did it
26:19is that there are some scenes,
26:21like the opening scenes, for instance,
26:22where there's a battle around a rock.
26:24Of course, that rock doesn't exist.
26:26It's like 12 different locations in Jordan.
26:30And we planned.
26:31Greg Fraser was scanning the rocks
26:33with the drones.
26:36Yeah, exactly.
26:37Lidar and the drones.
26:39And then put that in computer
26:40to know on November 3rd at 9.45
26:43if Denis wants the sun behind the actress
26:46when she smashed the head of the guy.
26:48The sun was going to be there at 9.45.
26:51So we have to plan.
26:52And all the shots were planned.
26:53And it was like a kind of puzzled photo.
26:55That's what Zendaya was referring to.
26:58Like it was a puzzle for the actors
27:01and for my first AD,
27:02but very rewarding in the camera.
27:05That's what astronomy is.
27:06You guys are doing astronomy.
27:07Yeah, totally.
27:09Like you're starting the stars.
27:10What is crazy about that?
27:12Galileo's second unit, yeah.
27:14Crazy comes with coincidence.
27:17There's a movie opening with an eclipse.
27:19And as I was shooting,
27:20there was an eclipse on the day.
27:22A real eclipse.
27:23You didn't know that was going to happen?
27:25No.
27:26I cannot say to the legendary,
27:29you know what, we're going to shot in Jordan
27:31in fall 2022
27:32because there will be an eclipse there.
27:34No, no, it's like it's a coincidence.
27:36It was not full,
27:36but we all put the camera on the sun
27:40and shot the eclipse.
27:41How do you figure out what natural light
27:43is on another planet?
27:45Like how do you give people a sense
27:46that we're looking at something natural,
27:48but it is alien?
27:50Man, that's the thing is that
27:51I was trying to bring the planet close to us.
27:54I wanted to bring,
27:55I tried the production design,
27:57I tried as much as possible
27:59to cut the exotism.
28:00I tried to bring things like the ornithopters,
28:04those flying machines
28:05that are described like flying like birds.
28:06I tried to make them
28:07as close to helicopters as possible.
28:09I tried to bring the design close to us
28:12so the people will not question it.
28:13When my mother see the machine,
28:15say, oh, of course it flies.
28:16It sounds like a helicopter.
28:18Just so we are not distracted by the technology.
28:21No exotism.
28:24Exoteric thing happening in front of camera,
28:27trying to bring that down close to earth
28:29as much as possible.
28:30You also almost create another planet
28:32with your lighting in the conclave.
28:36That wasn't natural light?
28:40Yeah, we shot on the 16th chapel.
28:41We blew it up.
28:44Did you guys rebuilt,
28:45you guys one-to-one modeled the 16th chapel, right?
28:47Yeah.
28:48That's crazy.
28:49I know.
28:50I thought you shot inside.
28:51Obviously can't shoot inside.
28:53Well, let's talk about that a little bit.
28:56Usually we would say as a metaphor,
28:58I can't believe you built the 16th chapel.
29:01You built the Coliseum,
29:02but we actually have people here at this table
29:04who did those things with their crew.
29:06It's actually cheaper.
29:09Did you build the Coliseum?
29:10I mean, did you shoot in the Coliseum ever?
29:12No, you can't.
29:14No, I went to the Coliseum production designer.
29:16We stood in it.
29:17We turned to each other and said,
29:19it's too small.
29:21Whoa.
29:22My Coliseum is about 10% bigger
29:24because when you have a horse going full gallop,
29:27you want to be able to rein in,
29:28not run into a wall to attempt something.
29:31So we built 50% real,
29:33four full stories,
29:3550% and then digitally put the rest in.
29:37That's easy.
29:38And Brady, you had the task of communicating
29:41that someone's a great architect.
29:43However, you had not a lot of money to do that.
29:46So how did you and your crew figured that out?
29:49If the film had been about
29:52a more ornamental style of architecture,
29:56we would not have been able to do it
29:58at this budget level.
30:00Because we built massive facades,
30:05real concrete,
30:07and then we just did very simple digital extensions
30:12so that you had real texture,
30:14you have real light, real shadow.
30:16And essentially it's just a big cube.
30:20So it's kind of VFX 101.
30:23And I think that if we had been trying
30:26to create something that was much more detailed
30:29and a less minimalistic style of architecture,
30:32that it would have been a lot less successful of a trick.
30:37And then also,
30:39because the film was shot on VistaVision
30:41and VistaVision's field of view is just immense.
30:44So you can be physically close to an object
30:47and you can see from the ground to the sky,
30:51even though you don't have to back off of it.
30:55And that's the beauty of the format
30:57is that it doesn't warp the object at all.
31:00It doesn't distort on the edges at all.
31:02It is, you really feel the impact of the architecture.
31:06And you feel it in Carrera too,
31:10the scale of those caves.
31:13And so I think that I also,
31:17we just, I just try to do everything
31:19as practically as possible.
31:21I've seen some photos of your set and it's insane.
31:25That's like one of the greatest sets I think I've ever seen.
31:27I mean, the Colosseum, it's really incredible.
31:30It's Colosseum and Rome and the palaces
31:33and three palaces and the Senate.
31:35Where did you shoot?
31:36Malta.
31:36Okay, okay, okay.
31:37Did you tear it down?
31:38Did you leave it?
31:40Well, yeah.
31:41You really want to hear that?
31:42Okay.
31:43No, I did a big film called Kingdom of Heaven
31:47years ago in Ouarzazate.
31:50And to take it down would have cost me $300,000.
31:54So I said to the Ouarzazatees,
31:56do you want to buy it?
31:57Yeah.
31:57I'll sell it for $10,
31:59but you have to take on all the responsibility of insurance.
32:02So I sold it for $10 and they would take it over.
32:0515 years later, I want to rent it back
32:08to do the Numibian sequence
32:10because I want to put it as a seafront thing.
32:12Had to pay a million dollars to rent my own set.
32:14Yeah, I saw that coming.
32:17It's inflation, it's inflation.
32:19More often than not, they'll rule the world shortly.
32:23But that gets me to a question about
32:27kind of the environmental impact of movies.
32:29I used to think that sets were always destroyed.
32:32Beautiful things are made and then destroyed.
32:35Is there another way to do it?
32:36Is there a more sort of environmentally sensible way
32:40to make movies perhaps than-
32:42Reuse them.
32:43Reuse them, store them.
32:44I mean, that Sistine Chapel set is still in Rome.
32:49It's in storage.
32:50People are going to shoot in the Sistine Chapel again.
32:53It just needs to be built with reusability in mind.
32:55You know, if you don't approach it that way after the fact,
32:57then you're building shit out of styrofoam and-
32:59Also, Kovali shot a movie that takes place in LA at home.
33:05That's environmentally good.
33:06Yeah, we didn't have to fly.
33:08Yeah, we shot everything in France.
33:10I never would have guessed.
33:11Yeah, the use of color and light, obviously, it was LA.
33:15Yeah, well, we built the apartment,
33:18which was the most important decision
33:20because it's like maybe 70% of the film.
33:23And our main question is how we're going to do that view,
33:27that view over LA, which is the main thing.
33:30And I knew from to start with,
33:32I didn't want to shoot on green screen
33:34because it was going to be like 70 days
33:37in front of a green screen,
33:39and you don't get to see what you have,
33:42unless until post-prod.
33:44For the actors, I think it's a nightmare.
33:46And then we researched because it's a huge backdrop,
33:49whether we're going to do it with the backdrop,
33:51like the curtain, you know, from the old time,
33:55or they now have like new LED screen
33:58when you can project a video.
34:00So we did some tests with my DOP, Benjamin Kwakun.
34:03And we felt like we needed to have something
34:08that is real, that is practical.
34:10And so even if it was scary,
34:11because it was a huge like curtain
34:14that we didn't know until we have it on set,
34:16if it was going to work, we decided to go for that.
34:19And I remember we did a few tests with the LED screen
34:23and the practical backdrop on a very small scale.
34:27And I discussed at the end of the day with my DP
34:30and he said, you know what?
34:31I feel like I prefer the backdrop
34:34because it's more poetic.
34:36And he said like, I feel it's the way we've done movies
34:39since the age of time.
34:40The old movies that I watched, they had this backdrop.
34:43And I feel, and I knew like this was the thing
34:46that convinced me that it would be the right way to do it.
34:49And I remember when the thing,
34:51the LA backdrop arrived in something like that,
34:54like a UPS delivery.
34:57Because we took the photos remotely from LA
35:00choosing the view.
35:00So when I'm here, it's funny because I'm saying,
35:02oh, this is a view from the apartment that we scouted.
35:05And it arrived, it was like that.
35:07And so we had to unpack it,
35:09let it go down for 48 hours, light everything.
35:13And I remember I entered the set
35:15and I was like, oh my God.
35:17And I pushed a huge screen
35:19because I felt it was going to work.
35:21It was like so realistic.
35:23And so-
35:24It felt as fake as LA.
35:31But me, I won't be like that.
35:33But we built everything.
35:36Like we later, I built as much as I could
35:39and I don't want nobody to shoot there again.
35:43And we destroy everything.
35:44They take the wood, they recycle the wood.
35:47But all the sets are so, is it environmental friendly?
35:51I don't know, but yeah.
35:53I will not start to shoot.
35:55Your world is totally invented.
35:57Yeah, I know, it cannot be reused.
35:59I don't want that to be reused.
36:01I just, you know.
36:02But the vehicles, we keep the vehicles.
36:04We keep the costume, tons of costume.
36:06How many vehicles do you have left?
36:08Not right now, there are three or four.
36:10I need doctors.
36:11Are you guys, what are you doing?
36:12I'm just, I have a parking, a small parking lot.
36:14No, I mean, if you guys just have extras, it seems-
36:18You got one this weekend, didn't you, Gar?
36:20I would love a vehicle.
36:22Ridley, what's Denzel Washington like to direct?
36:27Next question.
36:28He's, I did the second film with him.
36:32I did American Gangster with him.
36:33So we kind of got used to each other there.
36:37But he changed all the time.
36:38He's probably one of the best actors we have today.
36:42And he just gets it in two seconds,
36:44doesn't want too much explanation.
36:46On the paper, got it, comes in.
36:48He said, you want to shoot it?
36:49I said, yeah.
36:49He got four cameras, do what you want.
36:51Wow.
36:52So, and so the beauty of multi-camera is that
36:57each scene is like a play.
36:58So the actors are completely freed up.
37:00So if you've got two actors in there who aren't acting,
37:03I said, you're on, whatever, I'm watching you,
37:06whatever you want to add.
37:07So it's one big scene, theatrical scene.
37:11And it's fast.
37:12And so at the end of it,
37:16every actor is the virtuoso of himself.
37:19I can't, finally, you can squeeze it so far
37:23and then you've got to leave it to him or her, right?
37:26And if they're not going far enough,
37:28then I start shouting at them,
37:29but I never had to shout in my life.
37:31So they always deliver.
37:33And so Denzel is just fantastic.
37:37I want to know what people,
37:39what you all do with takes, like how many takes?
37:41Are you all like, I'll do 30 takes if that's what it takes?
37:44Or are you, like, do you just put it in the hands of three?
37:48One.
37:48One?
37:49Yeah.
37:49One?
37:50It's got four cameras.
37:51Yeah, yeah.
37:53That doesn't count.
37:54That's a small take.
37:55He doesn't even need a take.
37:56He doesn't even need a take, in fact.
37:59One of the best things I've had was Al Pacino.
38:00He said, I hear you don't give me more than four takes.
38:02I said, you got as many as you wanted.
38:05Because we had several cameras,
38:06he hadn't really experienced that before.
38:08He felt free.
38:09I said, at the end of it, always, what do you think?
38:13I think you have it.
38:14He said, really?
38:15So you want to go again?
38:16No, I think we got it.
38:18Boom.
38:18Two takes.
38:19Well, I feel like maybe for you, Edward,
38:21I feel like a lot of our films,
38:22there's so much more motion going on.
38:26I feel like yours is strictly very photographic.
38:29Your actor is-
38:30Static.
38:31Static.
38:31Yeah, and obviously-
38:32Yours too.
38:34I do a lot of takes.
38:36You do?
38:36You do?
38:37Oh, yeah.
38:38Like 15 is kind of an average.
38:41But you're also more, I think you have less coverage.
38:46Yes, exactly.
38:47You're very sort of-
38:48One camera.
38:49One camera, then you have that top shot,
38:51and then this, like three shots per scene.
38:54Yeah, but I know Edward did 100 takes on boiling egg.
38:57That's psychotic.
39:00Well, if you watch it, it doesn't boil.
39:01That's why.
39:02I mean, everyone knows that.
39:05My movie doesn't work quite that way
39:07because I have so much dialogue
39:09and so much POV of Rafe
39:11and so many people that he needs to interact with.
39:13Yours is like about this one person.
39:16So I just need much more coverage.
39:18And then I maybe do, it depends on the scene,
39:21but I would say if it's just like a shot on Rafe,
39:23it'll be like two, three, four maximum.
39:26He's amazing.
39:27I mean, he's just great.
39:29But also just trying things.
39:33Maybe four maximum, maybe some very rare exception,
39:37I would say it's five.
39:40And then if it's a one taker,
39:41like a scene that is like two minutes, then more.
39:46Up to like 12, 13, 14.
39:48It depends on who your actor is.
39:50Rafe, you can give it in two or one.
39:52I usually ask, you know,
39:54Rafe, how do you feel?
39:55You want another one?
39:56Let's go.
39:57Yeah, exactly.
39:58And then he usually goes like,
39:59yeah, let's do another one.
40:00He's virtuoso.
40:03And what about you?
40:04Because also with your,
40:05I think there is a whole technique things
40:07that, you know, take some time.
40:09Yeah, you've got a much bigger challenge in the way
40:11because we work with, say, very good practice actors.
40:14You're looking at people who are doing something
40:16they've never done before.
40:17And it's all oners.
40:19Everything's a oner.
40:21How many takes do you do then?
40:23Well, didn't have so much time.
40:25So kind of limited by the takes away from the next day
40:28or takes away from other things.
40:29I don't think we did more than maybe four.
40:32I think I would have...
40:33Very reasonable.
40:34Yeah, I think I would have liked to have done.
40:35But I mean, we had...
40:36But they're just really good.
40:37They're really good.
40:38Kids are great.
40:39I mean, we had like Jomo Frey as a DP,
40:41Sam Ellison, who you know, also camera operator.
40:44Amazing operator.
40:45Yeah.
40:46Brandon Wilson, you know, Ethan Harisi.
40:49They came in like so open to play
40:51that whatever they did was so genuine
40:53because they weren't trying to like play a character.
40:55They were kind of being themselves as boys in that time.
40:58It just made it really, really smooth, I guess.
41:01Do you have multiple cameras?
41:03No.
41:03Just one, right?
41:04Yes.
41:05It feels like one camera.
41:06No, no, no.
41:06But I know...
41:09No, stop it.
41:12I was going to say, I didn't know...
41:13No, no, but I'm a maniac.
41:15I love to work on one thing at a time.
41:17I'm like Hakim.
41:18I love, I love, I love.
41:20But then I don't do a lot of takes.
41:22When I watch your movie, I feel like
41:24where would the second camera go?
41:25I never know.
41:25But it's...
41:27You can take it out.
41:28You can just rub it out.
41:30Sure.
41:30I hate that.
41:33Did you guys...
41:33When you were making Blade Runner 2049,
41:35did you guys like chat about that?
41:38Not at all.
41:39Kept it right out of his way.
41:40Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:41It was very elegant and just, yeah.
41:44For the best and for the worst.
41:46I don't know.
41:47So you don't do a lot of takes.
41:48I don't like to do a lot of takes.
41:50I'm not aiming.
41:51If I can, if I have it on the first,
41:53I'll be comfortable.
41:55Say, specifically with Digital today,
41:56you know, you see.
41:57What moves me is sometimes
41:59there are specific actors
42:00that you say, okay, I get it.
42:01And the actor turns and says,
42:03can I do it again?
42:04That's it.
42:05Yeah, yeah.
42:05Like, I'll be about them.
42:06You always, you want to play.
42:09You want to explore.
42:11I gave it to him.
42:11Yeah, I would have fun.
42:13I would have fun.
42:14I mean, do you rehearse a bunch then?
42:16No, I don't rehearse a lot.
42:17No, I have a lot of conversations
42:19prior to shoot.
42:20On the day, I don't want to have questions.
42:23On the shoot, it's very visceral.
42:25I don't want to have people talking to me
42:27about ideas on the day.
42:30But in prep, I'm very open.
42:31But I feel, yeah,
42:32if Javier Bardem comes and says,
42:34can I have another one?
42:34You're not going to go.
42:35Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:36But you look like a kid.
42:39What's a seemingly small detail in your movie
42:42that was actually very important to you?
42:45It feels like every second
42:47of the day of shooting.
42:48Yeah, yeah, everything.
42:49It's the accumulation of the details.
42:51It always goes through your head.
42:53Comme ci, comme ça.
42:54That means, you know.
42:58No, I'll give you an example.
43:00I made a film called Martian.
43:03We invested in a desert
43:05at a 75-foot green screen in Budapest.
43:08I shot all of the stuff there.
43:10I fitted it to Jordan.
43:13I went to Jordan afterwards
43:14and photographed everything and fitted it.
43:16It's seamless.
43:17Yeah, I know.
43:18You don't know.
43:19So set is in Budapest,
43:22shooting Jordan,
43:23where you have markers for everything.
43:25It just goes.
43:27You know what I heard?
43:28I heard that it was more expensive to make,
43:30I say this respectfully and funnily,
43:32more expensive to make Martian
43:34than to send a rover to Mars.
43:36Is that true?
43:37Bullshit.
43:39No, no, no.
43:40I think we cost about,
43:42I think about 80 million.
43:43Really?
43:44Yeah.
43:45That's shocking.
43:46Low or high?
43:47Low.
43:47Yeah.
43:51I guess you, yes.
43:53I mean, it feels huge.
43:54The scope of the movie feels huge.
43:56The studio didn't realize it's actually a comedy.
44:00So it sat on the shelf for two years
44:01and then they said,
44:02do you want to look at this?
44:03I read it and said, it's really funny.
44:05Funny?
44:07That was the first exchange of swords.
44:11It's a comedy, dude.
44:12Yeah.
44:14Since we're talking about dealing with studios,
44:17what have you learned
44:18from dealing with studios or financiers?
44:20By the way, this is something your movie engages with
44:22a little bit metaphorically.
44:24No comment.
44:24Okay.
44:27How do you manage the relationship with the people?
44:29No, I can.
44:31I am continually amazed that people will give us money
44:35to do our dream.
44:37They've got to be crazy.
44:39And so that is real trust.
44:41So I'm very respectful of that.
44:44So my G2 is $10 million under budget.
44:48Yeah.
44:49I move fast.
44:50Yeah.
44:51You're always on budget.
44:54Yeah.
44:55But always respect that.
44:56Totally respectful.
44:57Me too.
44:58Me too.
44:58I feel that they give you a box
44:59and you have to print that box.
45:02I'll say I was wildly surprised.
45:04I went into the entire process deeply hesitant
45:07because I have an art practice and-
45:09It's a good title, deeply hesitant.
45:11Very good title.
45:12I mean, it's a mental state, my friend.
45:16Because I have an art practice
45:18and I'm just used to doing things on my own terms
45:20and I don't want to make art and argue ever.
45:24That's not in my blood.
45:26And so the idea of working with the studio to do something
45:28always is, for superficial reasons,
45:30seemed like it'd be constrictive.
45:31But I was left with a lot of hope.
45:34I worked with Plan B and Anonymous Content,
45:35Orion and Louverture Films
45:37and never did anyone question any of the ideas.
45:41And I know that they're fringe.
45:43I know that they're going to cost a lot.
45:44I know that they're going to have to say yes
45:47to things that they may not quite understand,
45:48which we were talking about with images.
45:49If you're making a poetic film,
45:51you have to be open to the idea
45:53that the meaning and the understanding
45:55will come after it's done.
45:57That's pretty hard.
45:58And for a studio to invest in that,
46:01I think was the biggest stress,
46:02in that if it didn't work,
46:03it seemed like it would close down doors
46:05because it was such a big risk for them.
46:08So I had a really great experience.
46:10Yeah, but I would say,
46:12when you make a film,
46:14if it fails, it will close down doors.
46:17That's part of the game.
46:19It will always be like that.
46:20Each film, you are always as good as your last film.
46:22And it's like, it's always like that.
46:24Not you because...
46:26But maybe for others though,
46:27because like...
46:28A regular human being.
46:29No, as long as the film was good.
46:31It didn't play, but the film was good.
46:33That's what counts.
46:34Yes, yes.
46:34But I got carte blanche imagination space
46:37in Colson Whitehead's Pulitzer Prize winning book.
46:39I don't know any other person of color,
46:43my age, maybe Barry Jenkins
46:45with Underground Railroad,
46:46but like that opportunity doesn't exist,
46:48you know?
46:49And it has a lot to do with like
46:50more systematic reasons.
46:53Plan B and anonymous content.
46:54I was gonna say same producers as Barry's.
46:56Yeah, exactly.
46:58Who paid for it?
46:58Who was the studio?
47:00MGM.
47:00It was a partnership with Orion.
47:02Alana Miles, Orion.
47:03Yeah.
47:04But yours was completely independent, right?
47:07Or relatively?
47:08Yeah, I mean...
47:09Yeah, we had done an international sale
47:13for the, you know,
47:13we sold the world
47:15for a very, very small amount of money.
47:19That made it almost impossible.
47:21But I was quite determined to be like,
47:24all right, we'll make it work.
47:26And on the domestic side,
47:29you know, what's funny is that
47:30my partners on this film
47:32were incredibly supportive.
47:34And I didn't have any antagonists
47:37in this process.
47:38In the past, I've had quite a few.
47:42And this film was, you know,
47:45it was written as a sort of exorcism
47:47in response to a lot of
47:49what my wife and I had been through.
47:50Because my wife is also a filmmaker
47:52and we write the films together.
47:53And yeah, we've been through a lot
47:56the last decade,
47:58fighting a lot about money.
48:01Because the thing is,
48:02is that I don't have a problem
48:03with the bottom line ever.
48:04I can make a movie with,
48:07you know, a shopping cart
48:08and, you know, a piece of string
48:11and two cups, no problem.
48:13But I don't want to be told
48:16how to move sand around in the box.
48:18So you give me that number,
48:20but don't tell me how to spend it.
48:21And because I am very,
48:24I'm very, very exacting.
48:26The film was 170 pages
48:27and it was shot in 33 days.
48:29And, you know, I just, I had,
48:32I had to be very, very precise,
48:34very organized.
48:35And like yourself, what you said,
48:37it rings true for me
48:38that in the preparation,
48:41I'm inviting lots and lots of ideas.
48:43And I really, you know,
48:45I mean, my crew, you know,
48:47they propped me up.
48:48I don't know if there's
48:50an exception to the rule,
48:51but I didn't see a lot of great movies
48:53come out of COVID.
48:54Like those COVID movies
48:55that people did like
48:56on their iPhones at home,
48:58not so great.
48:59And so I really, you know,
49:02especially after COVID,
49:03I mean, it was so clear to me
49:06that I really, I need
49:09like real infrastructure.
49:10I need a lot of personnel.
49:11But what was so great
49:13about this process is that,
49:15you know, when I would say to someone,
49:17you know, listen,
49:18I promise you that we will not
49:20go into overtime.
49:21But we need a techno crane
49:24because if I send
49:24a Steadicam operator walking
49:26backwards down a hill,
49:28then we're never going
49:29to make our day.
49:30And it's going to, you know,
49:32it's going to blow up in our face.
49:34So this movie went quite well for us
49:36because we had real support
49:38and we didn't have a lot of money,
49:40but we had really a lot of faith.
49:42And we had a cast and crew
49:45that were all moving
49:46in the same direction.
49:47We're going to start winding down.
49:49And Ridley, you know,
49:50I've been to your office
49:51and there's something in it
49:52that's striking to me.
49:53You may know
49:54what I'm talking about.
49:55You have something framed
49:56in your office.
49:57It's a, it's a review,
49:58a Pauline Kael review.
49:59Pauline Kael, oh yeah.
50:00Yes, esteemed New Yorker
50:01film critic, Pauline Kael's
50:031984 review of Blade Runner,
50:05which she panned viciously.
50:08She hated that movie.
50:09It enters the realm
50:10of industrial espionage.
50:12You're destroying the subject
50:14before it's out.
50:15And she wrote this for
50:17the very posh New Yorker.
50:20And she was the sort of
50:21dean of film criticism
50:22at the time.
50:23And I was kind of,
50:24actually distressed.
50:27I mean, enraged.
50:28And so I wrote to the editor
50:31saying, if you hate me that much,
50:33just ignore me.
50:34Don't write anything.
50:35I never got a reply.
50:37And then it was discovered
50:39in the Santa Monica Film Festival
50:41about 10 years later.
50:43There'd been one or two diehards
50:44who'd quite liked it
50:45when it came out.
50:46So they called up Warner's
50:48for the print
50:50and they'd lost the negative.
50:52And so then they went to a drawer,
50:53pulled out a drawer,
50:54didn't look at it,
50:56sent it to the festival.
50:58It was minus the voiceover,
51:00had a bit of Van Gellis,
51:02a bit of Jerry Goldsmith on it,
51:03and it ran.
51:04And that reignited the whole thing.
51:06And that's the craziness of Hollywood.
51:10Well, yeah.
51:11What do you all take
51:12from that story?
51:13What you take from it
51:14is you're your own critic.
51:16So I've framed it
51:18so I never read critique
51:19ever again, ever.
51:20I read everything.
51:21Me too.
51:23Every letter box.
51:24I don't read anything.
51:25Everyone.
51:26I mean, I don't.
51:27It's hard.
51:28I don't read anything.
51:29Yeah.
51:31What happens if they hate it?
51:33I try to build language to combat it.
51:37Because most of the...
51:38You reply?
51:39No, no, I thought about it many times.
51:41Not the time.
51:42What you said, Ridley,
51:43is very important
51:43because I think that
51:44when your movie comes out,
51:46you have to have your own
51:48perception of your work
51:49and where you stand,
51:51where you go next.
51:54Because if people say
51:56it's a failure or you're a genius,
51:59I mean, you need to stay...
52:01to keep your own perspective
52:02about your work,
52:03to be honest about where you stand
52:04and where you have to evolve.
52:06And that's, yeah,
52:07that I think that relationship
52:08with the object is super important.
52:09Ideally, don't read any critique.
52:11No, absolutely.
52:12No, the positive as well as the negative.
52:14I don't want to read anything.
52:16Equally dangerous, absolutely.
52:18Because it's going to hinder me
52:19from making my next one
52:20and thinking about my next one
52:22by continuing to think about the past.
52:23But you don't make bad things, Edward.
52:26Edward, we know you don't.
52:27You don't have to act like
52:29you're not doing great stuff.
52:32You can only try by not reading
52:34other people's writer
52:36or think about you.
52:37I want to know what you think about the movie.
52:39Like, I invite you to my movie.
52:40Say, tell me what you think.
52:42Let's discuss it.
52:42I want to learn from you.
52:44That I find interesting.
52:45And if someone says you're a genius,
52:46someone else will think the right opposite.
52:49You have the whole rainbow of opinions, anyway.
52:52Oh, there's so many opinions.
52:54I mean, I can't, like, I can't worry about it.
52:56I think Francois has before said,
52:57everybody has two jobs.
52:59Their jobs and film critics.
53:02But I think it goes with the question before,
53:06like keeping where you want to go
53:08and why you did the movie to start with.
53:11Because you're only always going to have
53:14opinion.
53:14No one is never going to think your movies,
53:17everyone is never going to be aligned anyway.
53:19But what do you take from your reviews?
53:21When you read everything,
53:22what do you take from it that is positive?
53:25When they're good, I'm so happy.
53:27Like, it makes me feel so good.
53:29Yes.
53:29And, and of course, like,
53:31if there are more that are good
53:32than more than there are bad,
53:35it changes the way you feel.
53:36But yeah, like each good review
53:38makes me feel so good
53:40and kind of, you know,
53:41makes me feel like I succeed to do what I wanted.
53:45You want to hear a story about Cannes?
53:47Yeah.
53:47I did my first movie,
53:49cost $800,000, called The Duelist, right?
53:52You ever saw that movie?
53:53I have seen it.
53:54Great movie.
53:55And I was 40.
53:56I hadn't in a movie
53:57and I was very successful in advertising.
53:59So I had the money to be the completion bond.
54:02I didn't get a fee.
54:03No fee, it was a bond.
54:05So now I'm making,
54:06I approached Harvey Keitel,
54:08who says,
54:08are you out of your fucking mind?
54:09You want me to be a fucking hussar?
54:11I said, yeah.
54:12So I had to sit for three months
54:13while Harvey finally agreed.
54:15Anyway, finished the movie
54:18and then Putnam, who was my producer,
54:20said they want us to be the English entry at Cannes.
54:23I said, wow, that's good.
54:25So I'm at Cannes
54:26and I'm approached by a very important gentleman
54:32who was on the committee.
54:33Very important,
54:34very, a big American director.
54:38I'm not going to say his name.
54:39Who said, love your goddamn movie.
54:44The problem is the jury
54:47have been given 50 grand as bribery
54:50to actually vote for another film.
54:54What?
54:55And he said, yes.
54:56He said, what do you want to do?
54:57I said, I will create a prize for you
54:59to give you this film.
55:00He said, well, I didn't think
55:01I was going to get this far.
55:02So let's keep it going.
55:03I said, good man.
55:04I didn't get the Palme d'Or,
55:06but I got what they called the golden egg.
55:08Okay.
55:09And ironically, the film didn't go
55:12to the guy who's paying them off.
55:14It went to two guys, brothers,
55:16Padre Padroni, the Cattaviani's.
55:18So that what they did.
55:20They earned it by having a good film.
55:22So I thought, fuck this corruption,
55:24even at this level.
55:25Couldn't believe it.
55:26I thought you were going to be like,
55:26and so I gave him a hundred thousand dollars.
55:29And that's how I got here.
55:30I was like, we're actually.
55:37Rommel, that is a perfect kicker.
55:39I have to wrap you guys.
55:41Thank you so much.
55:41Thank you so much.
55:42This has been a wonderful conversation.
55:44I appreciate it so much.