In a compelling interview with OneIndia, Rajdeep Sardesai discusses his new book, 2024: The Election That Surprised India. He delves into the evolution of Brand Modi, Amit Shah’s crisis management, the shifting political strategies of the BJP, and the rise of emerging leaders like Devendra Fadnavis. Sardesai also explores the challenges of journalism in the digital age, the impact of media on Indian politics, and the growing influence of leaders outside Congress. A must-watch for anyone interested in the pulse of Indian politics and leadership.
#RajdeepSardesai #2024Elections #IndianPolitics #MediaCrisis #OneIndiaExclusive
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No suo motu contempt case registered against Rajdeep Sardesai: SC clarifies :: https://www.oneindia.com/india/sc-registers-suo-motu-contempt-case-against-rajdeep-sardesai-for-his-tweets-3217861.html?ref=DMDesc
Republic Day violence: Rajdeep Sardesai, Shashi Tharoor moves Supreme Court against FIRs :: https://www.oneindia.com/india/republic-day-violence-rajdeep-sardesai-shashi-tharoor-moves-supreme-court-against-firs-3211574.html?ref=DMDesc
Republic Day violence: Delhi Police files case against Tharoor, others :: https://www.oneindia.com/india/republic-day-violence-delhi-police-files-case-against-tharoor-others-3210002.html?ref=DMDesc
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#RajdeepSardesai #2024Elections #IndianPolitics #MediaCrisis #OneIndiaExclusive
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No suo motu contempt case registered against Rajdeep Sardesai: SC clarifies :: https://www.oneindia.com/india/sc-registers-suo-motu-contempt-case-against-rajdeep-sardesai-for-his-tweets-3217861.html?ref=DMDesc
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Republic Day violence: Delhi Police files case against Tharoor, others :: https://www.oneindia.com/india/republic-day-violence-delhi-police-files-case-against-tharoor-others-3210002.html?ref=DMDesc
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00Is Brian Modi still as strong as it was 10 years ago? No.
00:00:03I think Brian Modi is not as invincible as it was 10 years ago.
00:00:07Amit Shah and Narendra Modi are joint at the hip.
00:00:09Jodi number one.
00:00:11They've worked together for 40 years. That's a long time.
00:00:14So, I think Amit Shah fulfils a particular role.
00:00:18He's the one who's the crisis manager.
00:00:19He's willing to do at times the sort of hard, dirty work,
00:00:22if you want to call it, but the hard work.
00:00:24Every regime has tried to manage the media at some stage or the other.
00:00:27Indira Gandhi put any dissenting voices in jail.
00:00:31Pramod Mahajan used to try and manage the media
00:00:34when Atal Bihari Vajpayee was in power.
00:00:37Can Chandrababu Naidu take Andhra forward?
00:00:39Yes, I think he can.
00:00:40Andhra is not an easy state to manage at the moment.
00:00:43Advertising revenues are plateauing across so many channels
00:00:48and with competing digital media, print media.
00:00:52So, the business model has changed.
00:00:54National news often becomes Delhi-centric news.
00:00:57If you're from the South, you feel, where is our stories?
00:01:04Hello and welcome to the One India Podcast.
00:01:08This one's a really, really special one.
00:01:10Joining me today is a stalwart of the Indian journalism scene.
00:01:15Someone who, according to a lot of reporters in the industry,
00:01:18was always a reporter's editor.
00:01:21An author who's recently written a book on the 2024 Lok Sabha elections
00:01:26called 2024, The Election That Surprised India.
00:01:30To talk more about the book, as well as other aspects
00:01:33concerning the present political scenario in the country,
00:01:36joining me is Mr. Rajdeep Sardesai.
00:01:38So, first things first, before we dive into your book,
00:01:42I'd like to take a couple of questions on your journey.
00:01:44Thank you very much, first of all, Akash, for that very kind introduction.
00:01:47Good to see you after quite a while
00:01:50and great to be here talking about the book and much more.
00:01:55So, first things first, you played first-class cricket.
00:01:58You also got selected for the Under-19 India camp.
00:02:02Heard that in a lot of interviews.
00:02:04I think it's important for people to understand why journalism.
00:02:07That's my first question to you.
00:02:09In a recent interview, I think, in a funny way, you had said,
00:02:12if there's nothing, if there's no talent left, then it's journalism.
00:02:15I'm sure that's not true.
00:02:16No, that's true, partly.
00:02:18Honestly, Akash, I've often said that if there is nothing else,
00:02:22there's always journalism.
00:02:24But I think I must be honest also.
00:02:26In my case, right from the 1970s, when I was 10, 12, teenager,
00:02:31I was obsessed with news.
00:02:34I was a news junkie.
00:02:37As a 12-year-old, I remember
00:02:40excitedly watching the election play out when Indira Gandhi lost in 77.
00:02:46I remember going to see
00:02:49at the US IAS in Mumbai when General Ford
00:02:53and Jimmy Carter were doing a US presidential election.
00:02:56I was 11 years old.
00:02:57I knew all the state capitals of the United States.
00:03:00I knew which state was Democrat, which was Republican.
00:03:04So I guess I had this great obsession,
00:03:07you want to call it, with news or great passion for news.
00:03:10And I think that is what led me eventually to journalism
00:03:13because I thought this is the best place to observe what's happening around me.
00:03:17I loved writing.
00:03:18I still maintain print is my first passion in a way.
00:03:22But yeah, so while I trained to be a lawyer
00:03:27and wanted to be a cricketer, I guess journalism just happened.
00:03:31So you just said you are a print first journalist, right?
00:03:34Print has always been your passion.
00:03:36You started out as a print journalist.
00:03:39A couple of questions about the industry as on data.
00:03:43We get the sense whenever we are on the field as broadcast journalists,
00:03:46that print people say that broadcast reporters are not reporters and vice versa.
00:03:52Do you sense that? Is it a fact?
00:03:55I mean, is it because of how broadcast ended up being eventually as on data
00:03:59or is it just coming out of ego slashing?
00:04:01No, I think there is a problem.
00:04:03I mean, let's not hide or minimize the fact that broadcast
00:04:07in particular in this country has faced a challenge for a few years now.
00:04:11I think the business model of doing broadcast journalism is part of the problem
00:04:16because if you want to run a channel today,
00:04:21you need to look at bottom lines.
00:04:23You need to ensure that you run a relatively low cost model.
00:04:27So you don't invest as much as we used to, for example, in reporting,
00:04:31in sending reporters out on the field.
00:04:34Reporters become byte gatherers.
00:04:36And even the bytes are now often got through an ANI or a PTI.
00:04:40So the space for journalists to do what they want to do,
00:04:44which is really to go out and report is shrinking.
00:04:46Plus, we have become so studio driven because that is the best way
00:04:49to perhaps do a low cost model.
00:04:51So I think there is a problem.
00:04:53There's a structural problem
00:04:55and overcoming that is not going to happen overnight.
00:04:59And I feel in a way for the journalists of today,
00:05:04because I was fortunate to be in a generation where a lot of monies
00:05:08were invested on news gathering, even in TV.
00:05:11Today, they are not.
00:05:12And as a result of that, I think there is a there is a crisis
00:05:17at times of of both credibility
00:05:22as well as just, you know, doing good quality journalism.
00:05:27Occasionally, we still get the good story.
00:05:29I think in life situations, television still often does rise to the occasion.
00:05:34But I wish it could happen more often.
00:05:36Well, a lot of times, Mr.
00:05:38Arnab Goswami's name is attributed to the entire breaking news phenomenon.
00:05:43Do you think that's right?
00:05:44I mean, is he the only person responsible for what transpired?
00:05:47I think it's unfair to blame any individual for what is a systemic crisis.
00:05:52I guess it may have got accelerated in the last decade.
00:05:57And, you know, you then blame individuals.
00:06:01But I, you know, individuals cannot be held responsible for the collapse of
00:06:07for degradation of values.
00:06:10You know, journalistic values when they are when they are being eroded
00:06:14so sharply at times, why blame an individual?
00:06:16I think all of us in the industry have to look inwards and ask ourselves,
00:06:22where have we come?
00:06:25And if we do that, honestly, I think we might even find some solutions.
00:06:29So analyzing the problem a little deeper.
00:06:33I think recently you were also asked the question,
00:06:35where's the next generation of broadcast journalists?
00:06:38I am a journalist who started my career during the Modi era, so to say.
00:06:43My question would be also spoke about the value being given
00:06:46to the news gathering wing, which is the reporters on field.
00:06:5290 to 95 percent of people who I know
00:06:55started out reporting with me during the same years, unfortunately
00:06:59now have gone into either PR or COPCOM.
00:07:03And more often than not, when we discuss, the reason happens to be the pay parity.
00:07:08The reason happens to be, you know, you stick to a profession
00:07:12for two reasons, either passion or money.
00:07:13When neither exists in a particular profession, what exactly do you do?
00:07:17You'd rather go run a gender for a political party or a company
00:07:20officially and make more money.
00:07:22Where does this stem from?
00:07:24Was it any different during your days when you started out?
00:07:27Or is it just this generation wanting money way too easy?
00:07:31No, look,
00:07:33again, I think it's unfair to blame this generation of journalists wanting money.
00:07:38And that's why they are drifting away.
00:07:40I think there is, as I said, the business model of doing journalism
00:07:44is facing a crisis, not just in India, but across the world,
00:07:48across the world.
00:07:49And technology is going to accentuate that problem, because,
00:07:55you know, today, if I'm getting all my news on mobile
00:07:58as almost like a first information report, how do I
00:08:02how do I sort of sustain engagement
00:08:05with viewers and readers beyond just the bite
00:08:09size information that they need on a mobile?
00:08:12Attention spans are becoming smaller.
00:08:16Advertising revenues are plateauing across so many channels
00:08:21and with competing digital media, print media.
00:08:25So the business model has changed.
00:08:27I think when we started off, it was all very new.
00:08:29There were fewer channels.
00:08:31Advertising was was growing across the board.
00:08:35We all wanted to make a mark.
00:08:36It was a new medium.
00:08:38So it was a bit of a revolution that took place in the 1990s.
00:08:42That revolution, I think, is over now.
00:08:45And with the rise of new media, new technologies,
00:08:48news is getting commodified.
00:08:50You know, as I said, news is available to you on your mobile phone.
00:08:53Why do I then need to watch a television channel?
00:08:56I don't have appointment viewing at nine o'clock.
00:08:58I will only watch Rajdeep Sardesai on India today that those days maybe are.
00:09:03There are viewers who may be like that, but not all.
00:09:06And therefore, naturally, it's a struggle now
00:09:09to keep the business model together to make a channel revenue generating.
00:09:15Naturally, salaries take a hit as a result.
00:09:18I'm not saying that we were paid astronomically high.
00:09:21Then my first salary, I remember the Times of India was a few hundred rupees.
00:09:26So I've never had you know, I mean, I didn't join this profession for money.
00:09:29And I believe many people, people who join journalism don't do it for money.
00:09:33They do it for the passion.
00:09:34You're right.
00:09:35When the passion goes away, then there is a problem.
00:09:38And I think part of the reason for the passion going away
00:09:40is because we have commodified news where the reporter in particular
00:09:44become just a byte gatherer.
00:09:46Now, that's not good enough for a reporter to.
00:09:49When you're passionate about a story and the story gets dropped.
00:09:52Yeah, you see, that's that's always happened.
00:09:54Akash is not as if this happened only now.
00:09:57My my only point, you know, there used to be even in even in the past,
00:10:03there have been instances where stories have been dropped.
00:10:06So let's not let's not suggest that only in your generation
00:10:10have stories been dropped, but we are a large country.
00:10:13How many bureaus can you sustain in a channel
00:10:17is a question many are asking.
00:10:19We are very Delhi centric across most channels.
00:10:21National news often becomes Delhi centric news.
00:10:25If you're from the south, you feel where is our story?
00:10:28So I think I think all of this is problematic.
00:10:31There are no easy solutions.
00:10:34But I do feel for younger generation journalists
00:10:36who have to work in an ecosystem very different from what I grew up in.
00:10:40So last couple of questions before I get to the book, I know you're waiting for it.
00:10:44You spoke about the monetization model or the business model, right?
00:10:49Multiple organizations in India have tried the entire pay to read model,
00:10:53but unfortunately, it does not work.
00:10:55It is very evident that the Indian audience, as on date,
00:10:58is not ready to pay to read authentic or credible news in such a scenario.
00:11:03A, what is the solution?
00:11:05Because eventually you'll have to go back to the governments
00:11:08and the corporates for advertising money to sustain yourself.
00:11:11So is there a solution that you see that can be attained in the near future at all?
00:11:16Second is with the advent of mediums like YouTube,
00:11:20do you think the dependency of distribution, distribution
00:11:24dependency on broadcast mediums has reduced considerably?
00:11:28And this eventually will lead to TV becoming obsolete at any point in time.
00:11:32So I don't think anything becomes obsolete.
00:11:35TV is still very big.
00:11:37Millions of Indians still watch television every day.
00:11:40You know, everybody says you can you can dis TV night after night, day after day.
00:11:45But please get it clear.
00:11:47Millions of Indians still watch television every day religiously.
00:11:51Did COVID have an impact on that?
00:11:52Because people went back to a more credible platform rather than social media.
00:11:56No, I am not going to say it's not about credibility.
00:12:00It's a way of life for millions of people.
00:12:02Even switching on a TV is a way of life.
00:12:04Maybe the younger generation is moving to digital.
00:12:07But we are also an aging society.
00:12:10People still live longer. Life expenditure is longer.
00:12:12I meet people 60, 70, 75.
00:12:15They are hooked on to TV.
00:12:17TV still when there is a live breaking news, people still turn to TV.
00:12:21So I'm not here to say that, you know, TV is going to be obsolete.
00:12:25But I think we are going to have to adapt to a changing world
00:12:28where people's memories are getting, you know, attention spans are getting shorter.
00:12:34And therefore, we have to see how do we ensure that people
00:12:38how do we remain relevant to more and more people?
00:12:41There's still space for quality.
00:12:45People, you give people quality, they will still watch you.
00:12:49I think the real challenge is how do you provide quality content?
00:12:53That is what the real debate should be.
00:12:54Not whether we have to be platform agnostic.
00:12:57You provide good quality content.
00:12:58It can go on YouTube. It can go on TV.
00:13:01It can become the basis of an article in a in a in a digital website.
00:13:06Provide quality. People will watch.
00:13:09You don't provide quality today.
00:13:11People will switch off and just move to the next channel
00:13:14or the next digital website or go to OTT.
00:13:17So that's really where the debate should be.
00:13:19How do you provide quality?
00:13:21So my next question, I mean, a story that I always wanted to hear from you
00:13:24when I joined your former organization, the one that you founded,
00:13:28the Network 18 group, now IBM, now run by the Network 18 group, obviously.
00:13:33I always heard stories about how Rajdeep Sardesai is the best boss to work under
00:13:38because he's always been a reporter's editor.
00:13:41Second aspect is a lot of video journalists.
00:13:45I would, in fact, name some Mr. Vikas Rawat and Mr. Raju Khatri
00:13:49feel very proud when they put out these stories about how you were the first person
00:13:54to give them that respect of a video journalist and not just a camera person.
00:13:58I mean, can you just tell us a little bit more about that?
00:14:01Because that's a story that I think needs to be heard.
00:14:04Look, I, in the first instance, don't think I was the first person
00:14:07to use the word video journalist.
00:14:09People had started calling them that.
00:14:11It's just that I think we had one of our annual events.
00:14:14And during that annual event,
00:14:17I guess we gave awards to our journalists and we called them video journalists.
00:14:22But I don't claim to invent having invented the word.
00:14:25The word existed.
00:14:27I guess when we had that awards event and gave,
00:14:31you know, gave reporters awards and gave camera persons awards.
00:14:35When we gave camera persons awards, we called them video journalist of the year.
00:14:39Best video journalist story.
00:14:42I'm glad that people feel that it gave them a sense of respect and belonging,
00:14:47because I really believe that camera, you're only as good as your backroom
00:14:50team in journalism, as good as your editor, producer, director, camera person.
00:14:55So I'm glad that happened.
00:14:58Am I a reporter's editor?
00:15:00Again, it's for others to judge because I have been a reporter
00:15:03because I still have that
00:15:05that desire to go out in the field.
00:15:07I appreciate the problems reporters have.
00:15:10It's not easy to sit out in the sun
00:15:12outside a minister's house for six hours on a hot day.
00:15:16You have to wait for a live for half an hour.
00:15:18Wait for a live for a half hour.
00:15:20You know, it is difficult.
00:15:23You're pushing, jostling through crowds.
00:15:25So I think you have a certain respect for those who do what you have once done
00:15:30and you understand what it takes to be a good reporter.
00:15:34Beyond that, you know, I really feel that I've been very privileged,
00:15:38very lucky, very fortunate to be part of a generation
00:15:42where change was taking place in the 1990s.
00:15:47I just happened to be at the right place at the right time
00:15:50when the TV boom took place.
00:15:53So, you know, otherwise I would have been a print reporter,
00:15:57a staff reporter by then.
00:15:59Who would have known?
00:16:00So coming to the book, it's titled The Election That Surprised India.
00:16:04Considering what happened after Lok Sabha, Haryana, Maharashtra
00:16:07and the other two states, Jammu and Kashmir and obviously Jharkhand,
00:16:12would you, given a chance, would you make it elections that surprised India?
00:16:17Yeah, you could. I mean, I think that's a good point.
00:16:19I mean, certainly every election this year has surprised us,
00:16:23even not just in India, but even in the West, even in the United States.
00:16:26You know, when Trump won, most people thought it would be a very close contest.
00:16:29Trump won easy.
00:16:31Maharashtra, most people thought Kategi Thakkar, Mayuti won easy.
00:16:37Haryana, most people expected Congress to win.
00:16:40BJP won. Jharkhand, most people thought BJP will win.
00:16:43Soren won easily.
00:16:45It's been a crazy year.
00:16:46You could have easily called it elections that surprised India.
00:16:50But I think the general election is always the biggest election.
00:16:53So in that sense, it is the defining election.
00:16:56Everything else pales in significance to a general election.
00:17:00I always see a general election as a defining election
00:17:05for because it happens once in every five years.
00:17:07It sets the tone for the next five years.
00:17:10And therefore, the kind of verdict that it threw up was fascinating.
00:17:14And I thought this book is not just about an election.
00:17:16It goes back to the last five years.
00:17:19And it's been a dramatic five years.
00:17:21Covid, Article 370 being withdrawn, Ram Mandir being built.
00:17:28I mean, you had a five year period like no other.
00:17:33Sir, after the Lok Sabha 2024 elections,
00:17:36everybody came about saying, OK, Rahul Gandhi has finally arrived
00:17:40and where's brand Modi right now?
00:17:43It's on its decline, etc.
00:17:45But the election results after that,
00:17:47I'm not discounting J&K or Jharkhand in this case,
00:17:51but the largest states, Haryana and Maharashtra,
00:17:54have gone the way of the ruling party.
00:17:57How do you see brand Modi as on date?
00:18:01Secondly, are journalists jumping the gun?
00:18:04Because the minute an election goes one way or the other,
00:18:08we very quick to call whether or not, you know,
00:18:12whether or not the brand is still the same, whether it's on the decline.
00:18:16Then again, Haryana goes the other way and we come back to,
00:18:19OK, maybe he's on the rise once again.
00:18:21So is it time for journalists to maybe stay back,
00:18:24hold back and just report rather than provide political commentary?
00:18:28Look, there are different aspects to your question.
00:18:32For example, should journalists be predicting outcomes of elections?
00:18:36I agree with you. I don't think we should.
00:18:38Because how do you predict in these large states, sprawling states, diverse states?
00:18:42No one can travel across a state.
00:18:44Elections have become very hypercompetitive.
00:18:47Prediction is hazardous.
00:18:49You need to give a statutory warning, like on a cigarette box.
00:18:53Predicting elections is injurious to health.
00:18:55I would not I would hesitate now to predict outcomes.
00:18:58I would report what happens in an election.
00:19:02So I think I think we also have to step back a bit.
00:19:06We get carried away by a bit of the surround sound that takes place.
00:19:10As Brand Modi,
00:19:12is Brand Modi still as strong as it was 10 years ago?
00:19:15No, I think Brand Modi is not as invincible as it was 10 years ago.
00:19:2010 years ago, there was an aura of invincibility, even five years ago.
00:19:24Today, Mr. Modi is still brand number one.
00:19:29But I don't think that you can say that the brand is invincible.
00:19:32Even in Haryana and Maharashtra, Mr.
00:19:33Modi was not the central figure, unlike 10 years ago.
00:19:36Now there are state leaders, local issues.
00:19:38BJP has also realized slowly can't put all your eggs in Mr.
00:19:42Modi's basket, as they did in the Lok Sabha and to some extent paid a price.
00:19:48Brand Rahul, frankly, you're right.
00:19:51I think he's still under test.
00:19:53I know that's a strange thing to say for someone who's in politics for 20 years.
00:19:57But journalists do tend to jump the gun.
00:20:01Moment one election victory, you immediately say, oh, Rahul is back.
00:20:04Or if Mr. Modi loses, oh, Modi is on his way out.
00:20:08Modi is not going anywhere.
00:20:10Mr. Rahul Gandhi is still challenger number one as of today.
00:20:17If you compare the two, I still think brand Modi is here and brand
00:20:20Rahul Gandhi is here in the public perception.
00:20:23No doubt about it. Modi is number one.
00:20:26But as I said, he's not invincible.
00:20:29It's just the kind of strategies you use now.
00:20:32The opposition has not, in my view, been intelligent enough
00:20:35to challenge brand Modi in a cohesive manner.
00:20:38And because of that, Mr.
00:20:40Modi is partly the beneficiary that
00:20:44there isn't a challenger who appears
00:20:49who appears to be attractive enough for a large section of the population.
00:20:55But purely in terms of brand,
00:20:57I don't think Mr. Modi is as popular as he was 10 years ago.
00:21:04So I can't help but bring up the pollsters and the exit polls, right?
00:21:07I think you also went on to say in a recent interview that it's time exit polls exit.
00:21:13Previously, pollsters got a lot of elections, right?
00:21:17And if anything, I think it would be safe to assume that the process
00:21:21processes would have only improved over time, considering the fact
00:21:24that you don't commit the same mistake again when you're collecting samples.
00:21:28When they got it this wrong this time,
00:21:31there is an entire narrative saying it's something fishy.
00:21:34Or has the voter become far cleverer than what he was?
00:21:38Is he or she becoming a silent voter?
00:21:41I mean, getting to know that, OK, this person may be serving for a political
00:21:44entity, which is why or a news entity, which is why I don't want to reveal my cards.
00:21:48Where has this gone wrong?
00:21:49Because the systems are the same.
00:21:51The people are the same.
00:21:52The methodology, pretty much the same, if not better.
00:21:56Well, and where has this gone wrong?
00:21:58Look, we are a 97 crore country.
00:22:00Sixty five crores will vote in a general election on an average.
00:22:04How can anyone predict with authority seat by seat, particularly because
00:22:09elections have become so competitive?
00:22:12So I think I think, you know, I feel sorry for pollsters.
00:22:16I mean, I think pollsters also need to be a little bit more
00:22:20circumspect before they throw numbers
00:22:24and put in the statutory warning.
00:22:26Nothing wrong with polling per se.
00:22:27You have every right to poll, but don't claim you're God.
00:22:31I know what the numbers are.
00:22:33Because India then becomes complicated and you
00:22:37you find yourself on the wrong side of those complications.
00:22:40So also, I think there are fly by night operators
00:22:45who claim to be pollsters.
00:22:46I don't know how rigorous their sampling is unless your sampling is rigorous.
00:22:51In a country as diverse as India, you can't have a pollster
00:22:55as India, you can get it horribly wrong.
00:22:58And even the best of pollsters have occasionally got polls
00:23:01wrong across the world.
00:23:03So why blame our pollsters only?
00:23:05I think we all have to step back and say, you know, let's stop this sort of tamasha
00:23:10sometimes around exit polls.
00:23:12Somebody wants to do an exit poll.
00:23:13Good luck to them.
00:23:14But it is not the last word.
00:23:17Let us not treat pollsters as if
00:23:18Arey yaar, yehi log jaante hain, baaki koi nahi jaanta.
00:23:22So you've spoken at length about Prime Minister Modi's interviews,
00:23:26the PMO presently having an in-house production unit, a camera unit,
00:23:30them editing the interviews and giving it out.
00:23:33While it may not have happened in a similar fashion in the past,
00:23:37each time, so my father happens to be a BJP supporter, to be very honest.
00:23:41So each time there's a debate on television about,
00:23:44you know, media being controlled by the present day administration.
00:23:48The argument that that is put forth by a lot of BJP supporters
00:23:52is, this isn't the first time.
00:23:54This was the case where pre-2014,
00:23:58investigating agencies were used by those in power even before 2014.
00:24:02Why is it that a certain section of media today
00:24:06feels it is necessary to bring it up, whereas the same amount of noise
00:24:10wasn't heard when the Congress was ruling the country?
00:24:13So because you were a journalist for 36 years, how's the journey been?
00:24:17And is this a fact?
00:24:19Was media controlled to this extent even in the past?
00:24:24Look, I think every regime has tried to manage the media
00:24:27at some stage or the other.
00:24:29Indira Gandhi put journalists,
00:24:32you know, any dissenting voices in jail when she was in power.
00:24:37Rajiv Gandhi brought the defamation bill, which would give the government
00:24:41powers over deciding what was defamatory and withdraw content.
00:24:47Eventually, the bill itself had to be withdrawn
00:24:49after there were protests from journalists.
00:24:52During Narsimha Rao's government, there was the Hawala case.
00:24:55During the Hawala case, also, the government was making sure that the media
00:24:59virtually for a long time gave the government's view
00:25:03version of what the case was.
00:25:06Pramod Mahajan used to try and manage the media
00:25:10when Atal Bihari Vajpayee was in power.
00:25:13There was someone called C.M.
00:25:14Ebrahim, who was a Janata Dal leader.
00:25:17He used to try and manage the media when
00:25:21Deva Gowda was in power for a short while.
00:25:23I remember he was the INB minister, Mr.
00:25:26Ebrahim, and he would try and censor information if necessary.
00:25:31So it's not as if these elements have not existed
00:25:36during Manmohan Singh's time.
00:25:38I think perhaps there was less intrusive presence.
00:25:43I will say that.
00:25:44I think Dr. Singh himself never rang up.
00:25:47He wasn't really focused on what a newspaper or channel
00:25:51was saying about him or his government, almost to his cost.
00:25:55Because when India Against Corruption happened and Arvind Kejriwal hit the streets,
00:25:58media was sort of exposing the Manmohan Singh government day after day or attacking it.
00:26:04Dr. Singh, there was no pushback really from Dr. Singh's government.
00:26:07Now you have a situation where you have a government
00:26:10which wants to manage the media at all costs, whatever it takes.
00:26:14And particularly because it's obsessed also with social media and TV,
00:26:19it will spare no efforts to ensure that the prime minister's
00:26:23image is protected at all costs.
00:26:24I write in the book how after the Karan Thapar interview,
00:26:27when the prime minister walked out, he made it very clear, never again.
00:26:31I will never put myself through this embarrassment again.
00:26:34And therefore, reluctance to do press conferences,
00:26:37reluctance to take questions which which may be embarrassing.
00:26:43It's the nature of the media.
00:26:44Now we've reached a state where even the editing and production
00:26:48is done by the prime minister's office.
00:26:49So times have changed and it is troubling because what is happening
00:26:54in Delhi is now going to happen or is already happening across states.
00:26:58Whether it's a Mamata Banerjee in Bengal, Stalin in Tamil Nadu.
00:27:01That is what I was coming to because even in opposition ruled states,
00:27:04you do see opposition leaders getting arrested.
00:27:08You do see even when regional parties are ruling the states.
00:27:13So it's not that it's just a central phenomenon
00:27:15that investigating agencies are being used, just that at the center,
00:27:19maybe it's the CBI and the state, it could be CID.
00:27:21So how do you look at that?
00:27:23Is it just the level of politics deteriorating over time or?
00:27:28No, it's a combination of various factors.
00:27:30I think there is a general deterioration in the standards of political behavior.
00:27:37There is a general lack of accountability
00:27:40of those who should be held accountable,
00:27:43and therefore they get away with a lot of what you said
00:27:47just now in terms of their dealings with media,
00:27:49their dealings with institutions and institutions
00:27:53which used to push back now no longer do so.
00:27:57You know, whether it's the judiciary, whether it's parliament,
00:28:00there's an attempt to reduce all of them in some way or the other
00:28:04to either being more compliant or notice boards.
00:28:08So that is a genuine worry.
00:28:10And that is why journalists, even if they want to challenge those in power,
00:28:14are often too fearful because there is no protection.
00:28:17If a journalist is thrown in jail,
00:28:20very few people will come out to stand up for that journalist.
00:28:23Not so easy, especially if you're from a smaller newspaper, smaller town.
00:28:28If you're a primetime news anchor. Does religion play a factor?
00:28:30Sorry? Does religion have an impact?
00:28:33You know, I cite in the book the Siddhi Kappan case.
00:28:36For example, a journalist going to cover Hathras
00:28:39was arrested and was in jail for more than two years.
00:28:43I mean, for a crime which was not clear.
00:28:45So I think there is a problem, but I don't think it's only religion.
00:28:48I mean, there are journalists who are who've been arrested
00:28:51because they exposed a midday meal scheme
00:28:54or suddenly had FIRs filed against them.
00:28:57In Kashmir, journalists are arrested under the Public Safety Act.
00:29:01In other states as well, cartoonists have been targeted in Bengal.
00:29:06YouTubers have been targeted across.
00:29:08So I think there's a general lack of tolerance for dissenting views.
00:29:12And that comes across in many of these instances.
00:29:15So coming back to Haryana for one question.
00:29:18Recently, I was attending a session.
00:29:20I was rather delivering a guest lecture in one of the colleges in Hyderabad.
00:29:23And one of the students came up with this question.
00:29:25I possibly did not have an answer.
00:29:27I hope you have one.
00:29:29The question was very simple.
00:29:31Lok Sabha was a push for BJP, right?
00:29:34It was a setback for them.
00:29:37Post Lok Sabha, there were four states which were due for election.
00:29:40And in your book, as well as in a lot of interviews,
00:29:42you had said that now the Election Commission is batting for one side
00:29:46or is highly biased or it's calling the shots on behalf.
00:29:49I mean, the government is calling the shots on behalf of the Election Commission.
00:29:52In that case, the simple question was when you've just had a major setback,
00:29:58four states are due.
00:30:00Why go for Haryana first and go for Maharashtra after that?
00:30:05Whereas you're risking your carder being demotivated,
00:30:09whereas the entire country at that point in time was talking about
00:30:12Congress already sealing the deal in Haryana.
00:30:16Look, I think you see, remember,
00:30:20the date for Haryana was the third week of October.
00:30:23So you had to do the polls by then.
00:30:25Maharashtra was fourth week of November.
00:30:27So you had that one month gap.
00:30:30You're right.
00:30:30There is still a question mark as to why did the BJP
00:30:33sort of risk Haryana in a way, as you're putting it.
00:30:37Look, the BJP is a mighty election machine.
00:30:41Even if it's a losing battle, they don't give up.
00:30:44They will make every effort.
00:30:45Sam, Dam, Danda, Bhed.
00:30:48Plus the sort of leadership of Mr.
00:30:51Modi, the strategic
00:30:55the strategic abilities of an Amit Shah,
00:30:58the carders, the RSS.
00:31:01This is a machine.
00:31:02So I don't think that, you know, they
00:31:06I think they took their chances in Haryana
00:31:09and maybe they thought, even if we have to lose, might as well,
00:31:13you know, lose with a fight
00:31:16and then put all our energies into Maharashtra.
00:31:19So Maharashtra was their big prize.
00:31:21That's the one which they gave all their effort to and it paid off.
00:31:25So it doesn't really matter.
00:31:26I mean, I think Haryana was a bit of a fluke.
00:31:29And out of all these election results of 2024,
00:31:31the one that surprised me the most was Haryana.
00:31:34It was just bad election management by the Congress.
00:31:38Nothing, no genius by the BJP.
00:31:40But in Haryana, I think the Congress got their entire strategy badly wrong.
00:31:46So it was a self-goal by the Congress that benefited the BJP.
00:31:49So going down south, there are multiple times in your book
00:31:52you mention about Chandrababu Naidu, the most experienced politician in the country.
00:31:57You also mention about him having to wait for two days
00:32:01to get an appointment with Mr. Ravindra Shah
00:32:04when he came to Delhi to seal the deal over the alliance, proposed alliance.
00:32:10This actually clears a lot of doubt, because I think in AP and down south,
00:32:14there's this larger consensus that maybe the BJP was pushing for the alliance
00:32:19and not the TDP, because the TDP is far more relevant in the state as compared to BJP.
00:32:24Tell us more about that episode
00:32:27and what you know about what transpired eventually after that.
00:32:30And also maybe about your opinion about Chandrababu Naidu as on date,
00:32:36because I believe you've watched him very closely.
00:32:38You've interviewed him multiple times, his work ethic, etc.
00:32:41Is he the man to sort of take AP forward?
00:32:45Look, Chandrababu Naidu is arguably, if I'm not mistaken,
00:32:50the senior most chief minister in the country.
00:32:51Yes. Became a chief minister in the mid 90s, 95, 96,
00:32:56well before even Narendra Modi.
00:33:00He strikes me as someone who is
00:33:03as close you can get to a slightly technocrat chief minister.
00:33:08He once told me almost half jokingly, if he hadn't become chief minister,
00:33:12he could have become CEO of Google.
00:33:14You know, I could have been CEO of Google or some big tech firm.
00:33:18He obviously believes he has those skill levels.
00:33:21He's never been a charismatic mass leader.
00:33:23And therefore, you see, he's never won till now ever a big victory on his own.
00:33:27And even now he had the BJP on his side.
00:33:30So you can't call Babu a mass leader in that sense.
00:33:33But he's been very durable.
00:33:35He's very strategic.
00:33:37He's a very good technocrat.
00:33:40And he's a survivor.
00:33:42I mean, that's where the other story comes.
00:33:43In August of 2023, people had written off Chandrababu Naidu.
00:33:48They believed Jagan was coming back.
00:33:50Welfare schemes were in place.
00:33:52And nobody seemed to want to touch Chandrababu Naidu,
00:33:55including the BJP, which was wary of him.
00:33:58By December, of course, after Telangana, the BJP eventually decided
00:34:01that, you know, let's make our deals with Chandrababu.
00:34:05They could have gone with Jagan just as well.
00:34:08I think they got that one card right, which is
00:34:11exactly the opposite of what happened in 2004.
00:34:14In 2004, BJP went with Chandrababu Naidu, Rajshekhar Reddy won.
00:34:1820 years later, the BJP chose the right horse in Chandrababu Naidu.
00:34:22I think he benefited from the fact that Jaganmohan arrested him.
00:34:26I think the arrest cost Jaganmohan more than he can imagine,
00:34:30because it then gave us sympathy and a boost to Chandrababu Naidu.
00:34:34Arresting a politician in an election year is never a good idea.
00:34:37Hemant Soren, again, a good example,
00:34:39benefited from sympathy.
00:34:41Chandrababu Naidu benefited from sympathy.
00:34:44Can Chandrababu Naidu take Andhra forward?
00:34:46Yes, I think he can.
00:34:48As could have Jagan Reddy.
00:34:50I think the fact is that Andhra is not an easy state to manage at the moment.
00:34:55The financial condition.
00:34:56The financial condition in particular.
00:34:58And you make all these slew of promises.
00:35:00Jagan made them, Naidu made them, tough to fulfill.
00:35:05It's also a state that has emerged out of the breakup of
00:35:09of or breaking away from Hyderabad.
00:35:13Hyderabad was the crown jewel.
00:35:15And without Hyderabad, Andhra somehow looks a state
00:35:18which still is desperate to find its way forward.
00:35:22So it's not an easy task.
00:35:23Babu also made a slew of promises that will cost the exchequer
00:35:26large amounts of money.
00:35:30I think he's at the moment
00:35:32wants to go down in history as the builder of modern Andhra.
00:35:37Having lost the whole state, he at least wants to preserve what he has.
00:35:41And therefore, the push for Amravati as the state capital,
00:35:45looking for new ways in which he can sort of define himself.
00:35:50Mr. Naidu is a clever man.
00:35:51You know, he's now going to have a skill census instead of a caste census.
00:35:56But but I still think that, you know, Andhra Pradesh
00:36:01will be a big challenge for Chandrababu in the next four years,
00:36:05especially given the fact that his relations with Mr.
00:36:08Modi have been blow hot, blow cold over the years.
00:36:12But never right, right.
00:36:14So, I mean, I think Mr.
00:36:16Naidu's got a second birth, almost a reinvention.
00:36:20And, you know, suddenly from I remember meeting him in August 2023,
00:36:25he didn't seem fit and well.
00:36:27Now he's looking as bright as ever.
00:36:29I haven't seen him looking better in a long time.
00:36:31Who would have thought that from 23,
00:36:33they could come all the way up to 164?
00:36:35There was something very peculiar about this times
00:36:37assembly election in Andhra Pradesh, sir.
00:36:40While most other states that I've traveled personally as a journalist,
00:36:44you always hear about schemes that have worked.
00:36:46You always hear about a vision statement being put out by a political party.
00:36:50But this time around, when we went into the
00:36:53when we went onto the ground and spoke to voters like a breath of fresh air,
00:36:57everybody was suddenly talking about, you know, we don't want the schemes.
00:36:59We don't want the softs.
00:37:00What about development?
00:37:02Where are our investments?
00:37:03Where are the industries going to come from in the past five years?
00:37:06During Jaganmohan Reddy's rule,
00:37:08investments have gone out of Andhra Pradesh rather than coming in,
00:37:11which would have been the case.
00:37:13So do you think for once this was a vote for development over a vote for?
00:37:18No, I think it was an anti-incumbency vote.
00:37:21I think obviously Jagan misread the mood.
00:37:25I would suggest that there was a sense that
00:37:28Jagan had become an autocrat and was not.
00:37:31You mentioned that in your book.
00:37:32And was not listening to voices other than his own.
00:37:36And I think that cost him.
00:37:37I think there was a communication gap between Jagan's office
00:37:41and a lot of the second and third level leaders in his party.
00:37:46Jagan is, again, a very capable politician in terms of his
00:37:50his ability to think out of the box, some of the schemes, welfare schemes
00:37:54that he brought, some of the initiatives on education.
00:37:58I think I'm pretty salutary.
00:38:00The problem is Jaganmohan Reddy's government was seen as a one man show.
00:38:05People don't like autocrats by and large in this country.
00:38:07They may give you one chance, but they won't give you a chance again and again.
00:38:12And I think people in India can see through
00:38:15when there are accusations of corruption made against senior ministers
00:38:20that they are quite unsparing even on that.
00:38:23So I think it was a it was more anti-incumbency that
00:38:27that sunk Jaganmohan Reddy in the end.
00:38:31I think, you know, imagine if he'd gone with the BJP, where would he have been?
00:38:35We don't know.
00:38:36That would be interesting to know how much of the vote is actually a BJP vote
00:38:40in a state like Andhra Pradesh, where they've never been a major power.
00:38:45Can Jagan make a comeback? Why not?
00:38:48You know, never write anyone off in politics.
00:38:50And least of all, someone like Jagan, I think he's determined to make that comeback.
00:38:55But for now, Babu plus BJP, pretty dominant force.
00:39:01So each time we talk about Jaganmohan Reddy, somehow we go back to the Congress
00:39:05party, because that's where it all started.
00:39:08Mamata Banerjee, KCR, Jaganmohan Reddy.
00:39:12Everybody who walked out of Congress at some point in time
00:39:15during their political career ended up being a chief minister in their respective state.
00:39:19And there's this larger narrative about the Congress intentionally
00:39:25cutting out state leadership, strong state leadership, because eventually
00:39:29these guys could have been competition to Rahul Gandhi for the prime minister's role.
00:39:34Is that a fact?
00:39:35Because you followed the Gandhi family and the Congress party for the longest time.
00:39:39Is that even a fact?
00:39:40And what is this entire narrative about?
00:39:42I mean, pre his accident, of course, Raj Shikhar Reddy being lobbied
00:39:48for in Delhi, for coming into the central role, etc.
00:39:52Are both of these facts that we've heard even considerable?
00:39:55I don't know about the Raj Shikhar Reddy story, but I do.
00:39:58The first part of your question, I think, is very interesting, Akash,
00:40:02because the first part goes to the nub of one of the challenges
00:40:07in one of the problem areas in our political system is that this grand old
00:40:11party called the Indian National Congress.
00:40:14Has not fully adjusted to the times of this hyper competitive election.
00:40:17They still want to play elections the old way.
00:40:20Mera aadmi, uska aadmi, I'll bring him down.
00:40:23I'll protect this guy.
00:40:24You've got to run politics on merit, not on all your networks.
00:40:29The Congress is still this party which works on old style networks.
00:40:32And I think it's weakened as a result, weakened considerably as a result.
00:40:37You're right.
00:40:37There are nine chief ministers at one count a couple of years ago were ex-congressmen.
00:40:41So obviously, when you leave the Congress, you seem to flourish.
00:40:44So that means something is wrong with the Congress party.
00:40:47Then why is it not able to encourage talent?
00:40:49Why is it that mediocrity is able to rise so easily in the Congress party?
00:40:53These are questions only the Congress can answer.
00:40:55And the Congress doesn't want to confront the truth
00:40:58that the party for the longest time has been effectively
00:41:02organizationally weak.
00:41:04Its leadership also has not been as strong as it should be,
00:41:08and it has not been able to build a compelling enough narrative
00:41:11for people to say, I'm switching from the Congress back to the BJP.
00:41:14So after three defeats, this is still a defeat for the Congress.
00:41:19Ninety nine seats is not 272.
00:41:21Exactly.
00:41:22And therefore, the Congress has to go back to the drawing board
00:41:25and be willing over the next four years to do the hard grind.
00:41:28If it does so, as it did in Chhattisgarh, famously,
00:41:32after its leadership was wiped out in a Naxal attack.
00:41:34In Telangana for that.
00:41:35In Telangana.
00:41:36So, you know, you've got to be at it.
00:41:38Lage raho.
00:41:40In politics, lage raho, reward will come.
00:41:42It may not come one year, two years, it may come five, ten.
00:41:45But lage raho, political bhai.
00:41:48So you also have a brief mention of Pawan Kalyan
00:41:52during that entire episode of the alliance about Pawan Kalyan in your book.
00:41:56What happened post the 2024 Lok Sabha elections?
00:42:01Where do you see Pawan Kalyan heading?
00:42:03I mean, is he the trump card that NDA possibly needed down south?
00:42:07Whereas on one hand, you do unite the Hindu World Bank.
00:42:11On the other hand, you are not an entity that the minorities perceive
00:42:15as dangerous or as somebody who is attacking them.
00:42:19How do you look at this Pawan angle coming in?
00:42:23Because I mean, in Maharashtra, after he campaigned,
00:42:26there were these news reports coming in about how he won the BJP
00:42:30or the NDA lot of seats wherever he campaigned.
00:42:33So what, according to you, is the future of Pawan Kalyan?
00:42:37Look, I think Pawan Kalyan has already shown himself
00:42:40to be a very astute politician in the kind of switches he has made.
00:42:43I'm not, if I recall right, five years ago he was with the CPM
00:42:47and now five years later, extreme left to extreme right.
00:42:50So he's made his ideological high jump or long jump,
00:42:54whatever you want to call it.
00:42:56The BJP is always on the lookout for leaders from the south
00:42:59who they can align with because they know their own geographical limitations.
00:43:03Pawan Kalyan is another example.
00:43:04They want to ride on his back.
00:43:06They tried it with Rajinikanth, never worked, Rajini didn't bite the bait.
00:43:11And over the years, they've looked for, they've tried it now
00:43:14with this young IAS officer in, sorry,
00:43:18IPS officer Anna Malai in Tamil Nadu again,
00:43:23trying to see can they, the BJP likes to have faces
00:43:27whom they can take to the people.
00:43:29They haven't been able to find one in Andhra.
00:43:32So Pawan Kalyan, as of now, becomes a potential option for them
00:43:35for the future because Pawan Kalyan also would like to be perhaps
00:43:39chief minister of Andhra one day.
00:43:41Everyone wants to be chief minister.
00:43:43In fact, I asked him this question and he said,
00:43:46not going to backstab anybody for this, but if it happens organically, why not?
00:43:52Look, no politician is going to ever say, I don't want to be chief minister.
00:43:56The way Pawan Kalyan played the Tirupati Laddu issue,
00:43:59the manner in which he's tried to take a much more strident Hindutva stand.
00:44:03Clearly, Pawan Kalyan sees himself aligned to the BJP
00:44:07much more than a Chandrababu Naidu does.
00:44:08Chandrababu Naidu has a past with the BJP,
00:44:11which the BJP is suspicious of and Naidu is suspicious of them.
00:44:15Pawan Kalyan does not carry the same baggage,
00:44:18therefore, is more willing perhaps to join hands with the BJP.
00:44:22So in the neighboring state of Tamil Nadu,
00:44:25Anna Malai obviously is the TRP candidate, right?
00:44:27I mean, like most Tamil journalists say,
00:44:29they say that he sells like hotcakes on TV,
00:44:32more than even the sitting chief minister for that matter.
00:44:35But do you see this trend of movie personalities
00:44:39making it really big in politics coming back once again
00:44:42with Vijay entering the fray in Tamil Nadu?
00:44:44Do you even see that as a factor?
00:44:45Look, Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh are sui generis.
00:44:49They work on their own rhythm.
00:44:51It doesn't mean everywhere in the country you'll have actors and actresses.
00:44:54Yes, Kangana Ranaut won debut in Mandi.
00:44:57But generally, I think Southern actors have a special relationship
00:45:01with their audience, as we saw in this terrible stampede
00:45:04that took place during the film premiere in Andhra Pradesh,
00:45:07in Pushpa's premiere in Hyderabad.
00:45:09So given that there is this frenzied, frenetic,
00:45:15manic attraction to film stars,
00:45:17there will always be a film star who will pop up and say, look,
00:45:20I'll fix the system.
00:45:22But frankly, very few of them have really succeeded.
00:45:25NTR and MGR are standout figures.
00:45:27Jai Lalitha to some extent.
00:45:29But MGR and NTR, as sort of first drivers of their political parties, stand out.
00:45:34And both these parties benefited from the aura
00:45:38that an NTR or an MGR had on screen.
00:45:41So that's not going away.
00:45:43But can Vijay adjust to new generation politics?
00:45:46I don't know.
00:45:48So you also mention in the book about how a group of leaders from the RSS
00:45:53met producers and directors from Bollywood
00:45:57and asked them to release a few movies on the hardline
00:46:02Hindutva, I can say nationalism, patriotism angle.
00:46:06In the last few months, I noticed a lot of ex-defense,
00:46:12ex-security personnel coming out and doing podcasts,
00:46:15speaking about operations which were confidential until then.
00:46:19Has Hindutva now transformed into patriotism?
00:46:23In a subtle manner, because down south, I think,
00:46:27have they realized the fact that the hardline agenda will not work
00:46:31in certain states like AP Telangana, where the caste divide works
00:46:34much more than maybe the religious divide?
00:46:37You know, Akash, it may not be working today,
00:46:40but what does tomorrow bring? We don't know.
00:46:43You know, nothing is static in this country.
00:46:46So let's not presume that it won't work.
00:46:49You know, you are presuming that
00:46:52this sort of hard Hindutva agenda won't work.
00:46:55It still works in large parts.
00:46:57We are in Mumbai doing this interview.
00:46:59And here in Mumbai, the BJP got a big victory, unprecedented.
00:47:04They couldn't have won this without having a strong,
00:47:09having created a strong sort of emotional resonance from its
00:47:12katenge toh batenge ya ek hai toh safe hai,
00:47:15which were in a way an attempt to consolidate the Hindu vote.
00:47:18And it worked.
00:47:20So I'm not going to stand and be complacent, say Hindu,
00:47:23hard Hindutva won't work.
00:47:25Hard Hindutva does work from time to time for the last 30 years now.
00:47:29So it's not even a one off.
00:47:31You have a prime minister who is a was called a Hindu Hriday Samrat.
00:47:36So this is very much already in an age where Hindu vote matters above all else.
00:47:43And that, to my mind, is what explains at least partly the BJP success,
00:47:47their ability to create a sense of a cultural, political Hindu
00:47:51who will vote for them.
00:47:53So going ahead, when we speak about the present condition of the media, etc.,
00:47:58spanning over 36 years in your career,
00:48:01do you do you personally have any regrets?
00:48:04I mean, is there a story that you could have done better?
00:48:08Is there have you jumped the gun ever have?
00:48:13Because certain organizations that you've worked in in the past
00:48:16have also there is a narrative around even those organizations
00:48:20saying even they were biased at some point in time.
00:48:23So do you personally have any regrets as such?
00:48:27Oh, look. You always want to do
00:48:31every story better than the last story you did.
00:48:36So there will always be regrets.
00:48:38And there have always been mistakes that you make.
00:48:40No one is flawless, particularly not in journalism.
00:48:43You may have jumped the gun.
00:48:44I may have jumped the gun.
00:48:45I may have given a go ahead to a story without having at times,
00:48:51you know, particularly a sting operation.
00:48:55You get very excited. It's sensational.
00:48:57Then you wonder, is it a sting or entrapment?
00:49:00These are all ethical dilemmas that journalists face.
00:49:03And I face them like anyone else.
00:49:05I'm not going to stand here and say everything's gone hunky dory.
00:49:09Again, I feel I'm lucky, blessed, privileged to have worked
00:49:13with some very good teams, more than NDTV, Network18 in India today.
00:49:17But have we made mistakes?
00:49:19Of course we have.
00:49:22I mean, what is life without mistakes?
00:49:24Any story you can think of specifically?
00:49:26I think, for example, you know, most famously when I tweeted about a farmer's
00:49:31death by a police gunshot and then later it was a live situation.
00:49:36I was basing it on the family and friends who were speaking up for the dead person.
00:49:40But later on, it turned out that the tractor had overturned.
00:49:44Now, the damage was done because of a tweet where I said, allegedly,
00:49:48and it was a live situation.
00:49:50Either way, I should have perhaps been far more circumspect
00:49:53given the kind of situation it was and
00:49:57not jumped the gun, if you want to call it that.
00:50:00So there are, you know, there are there are a fair few occasions
00:50:04when you've done it for 35, 36 years,
00:50:07there will always be the odd story that you'll say, shit, man,
00:50:10I should have done that better.
00:50:11Or, you know, could I have just
00:50:15could I have not done that interview?
00:50:17Should I have done that interview differently?
00:50:19That happens all the time, even with the Sonia Gandhi interview
00:50:23for which I was told.
00:50:24I mean, she wasn't willing to take political questions that day.
00:50:27But should I have then just said, sorry, ma'am,
00:50:30I won't do the interview unless you take political questions.
00:50:32So I think you live and learn.
00:50:36So in your book, you also mention about the rift between Mr.
00:50:40Yogi Adityanath and the central command of the BJP.
00:50:44In this case, Mr.
00:50:45Amit Shah and Mr.
00:50:46Narendra Modi, somehow there's one line there which
00:50:50blames Mr.
00:50:52Amit Shah a little bit, not blames, rather, that's the wrong word to use,
00:50:55but rather holds him more responsible than Mr.
00:50:58Narendra Modi.
00:50:59Also, when you speak about or rather when you write about
00:51:03the alliance between the Shiv Sena and the BJP breaking out,
00:51:07once again, Mr.
00:51:07Amit Shah's name pops up.
00:51:10At this point in time,
00:51:11are they just playing good cop, bad cop, in your opinion?
00:51:13Or is Mr.
00:51:14Amit Shah establishing the field for a larger role?
00:51:18Does he even have that vision, in your opinion?
00:51:20Look, Amit Shah and Narendra Modi are joint at the hip.
00:51:22Jodi, number one.
00:51:24They've worked together for 40 years.
00:51:25That's a long time.
00:51:27So I think Amit Shah fulfills a particular role.
00:51:30He's the one who's the crisis manager.
00:51:32He's willing to do, at times, the sort of hard, dirty work,
00:51:35if you want to call it, but the hard work.
00:51:37A lot of micromanagement of elections.
00:51:39Mr.
00:51:40Modi is now in another orbit.
00:51:42So Amit Shah does what it what needs to be done
00:51:46to keep the election machine of the BJP going.
00:51:49He's quite an all-rounder, as I mentioned in the book.
00:51:51He has.
00:51:52And I think that was part of the problem in 2024.
00:51:54He had too much on his plate.
00:51:56You know, he was home minister.
00:51:58He was chief strategist.
00:52:00He was campaigning for the party.
00:52:02He was fundraising.
00:52:04Eventually, people, you know, even the best of us,
00:52:07therefore, can lose the plot.
00:52:09And I think Amit Shah partly,
00:52:11along with the prime minister, got carried away
00:52:13with this Char So Paar drumbeat.
00:52:15In fact, Amit Shah was more cautious, to be fair.
00:52:17I mentioned in the book, he was not keen on it
00:52:19because he said, Char So Paar uske baad kya?
00:52:22Look, Amit Shah is a consummate 24 by 7 real political practitioner.
00:52:28Even at three in the morning, he's thinking how to win an election.
00:52:32So I think someone like that is very useful for someone like Mr.
00:52:36Modi. Mr.
00:52:37Modi has the qualities that Char doesn't.
00:52:39Mr.
00:52:39Modi is a very charismatic orator.
00:52:42I mean, some of his critics will call him demagogue,
00:52:45will say that, you know, hate speech.
00:52:46But the fact is,
00:52:48he is someone who can pump up the volume with supporters.
00:52:52Amit Shah cannot.
00:52:53So they fulfill very different roles.
00:52:55You speak about Mr.
00:52:57Modi not thinking about retirement at this point in time,
00:53:01or rather you write about it in your book.
00:53:03But that's an inevitable eventuality that there has to be a successor
00:53:07within the BJP.
00:53:09So with your experience, with the rift between Mr.
00:53:13Modi, Modi Shah and Mr.
00:53:14Yogi Adityanath, who do you see as somebody who is a prospective
00:53:19candidate for that, at least the BJP presidentship right now?
00:53:22You know, Akash, never predict names.
00:53:24I remember if you asked me this question 20 years ago,
00:53:27I'm not sure we would throw up Narendra Modi's name.
00:53:29You'd have had Pramod Mahajan, Sushma Swaraj in row one,
00:53:32maybe Modi in row two.
00:53:34At the moment, I don't know.
00:53:36Devendra Fadnavis, after the Maharashtra victory,
00:53:38certainly looks like a face for the future.
00:53:41He's young, comes from a big state,
00:53:44commercial state, CEO qualities,
00:53:48a bit of Modi in him.
00:53:50I can see
00:53:53Devendra Fadnavis going very far.
00:53:55But in politics, you never know what tomorrow brings.
00:53:59Five months ago, the same Devendra Fadnavis was offering his resignation
00:54:02after the defeat of the BJP in the Lok Sabha.
00:54:05Today, he's a chief minister for a third time.
00:54:07In politics, anything can happen in India.
00:54:10My last two questions, sir.
00:54:11First one, if you were to pick a leader to lead Congress
00:54:15into the next phase of Indian politics, who would it be?
00:54:19Would it be Priyanka Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi?
00:54:20No, I think I don't think I want to reduce it to individuals.
00:54:24I think the Congress needs a total reboot in terms of organization.
00:54:27Whoever leads it
00:54:29has to focus on the organization first.
00:54:31It's a hard task.
00:54:33It's a difficult task.
00:54:34It's the task likes of Amit Shah have done.
00:54:37And Congress needs, in that sense, an Amit Shah.
00:54:41But look,
00:54:44the Congress has a lot of talent
00:54:47in the 40, 50, 60 age group.
00:54:50They have to come together.
00:54:52I don't think any of them can be except Rahul Gandhi
00:54:55because he has the sort of, he is a Dinnist fifth generation in the party.
00:55:00He has earned the respect of the party because of Bharat Jodo.
00:55:04May not last forever, but except Rahul Gandhi,
00:55:07there's no one individual that stands out for me in the Congress
00:55:11as the person whom the rest of the party will agree to follow.
00:55:14There are lots of talented individuals, the likes of Sachin Pilot, for example.
00:55:18Good speaker, young, youthful.
00:55:21But the rest of the party will not accept it.
00:55:23So I think the Congress is best off at the moment
00:55:27if it can build up some kind of a collective leadership around Rahul Gandhi
00:55:33and also then tie up with regional parties.
00:55:35So while some say the Gandhi family is a binding force for the party,
00:55:38there are others who say that they are the baggage
00:55:42that is weighing Congress down.
00:55:43What is your opinion on that?
00:55:44Well, I think I look, they are both
00:55:48they are both boon and bane.
00:55:50The Gandhi's hold the Congress party together to a large extent.
00:55:54They provide some leadership direction to the Congress party.
00:55:58It's a party of power.
00:56:00It wants power at all costs.
00:56:03I think the Gandhi's, to my mind, do play that role
00:56:07in terms of at least giving them a sense of comfort at times
00:56:10that our Gandhi's are there.
00:56:12But I think the problem is that we live in an age
00:56:15which is increasingly a meritocracy in different professions,
00:56:19especially for the middle class.
00:56:21The middle class, I think, in particular, doesn't like the idea of parivarwar
00:56:25of people from the same family becoming sort of leaders of the party
00:56:29without doing the hard work on the ground.
00:56:31So I think that will always be a test for Rahul Gandhi and for the Congress.
00:56:35Are they willing to change and offer solutions beyond the Gandhi's as well?
00:56:41In the past, they've not been able to do so.
00:56:44But a time may well come that if they don't do so,
00:56:47the BJP will just rampage their way through.
00:56:50My last question, sir, from the home state that I belong to, in fact.
00:56:54KCR's revival or BRSS revival, so to say, is that even an option?
00:56:58I'd like for you to just give us some perspective,
00:57:01because I was a student back then when the state was bifurcated.
00:57:04What went around during that time in Delhi?
00:57:07The reason being, there is this entire narrative around,
00:57:11you know, it was always hot and cold, hot and cold,
00:57:13because KCR was sent a few money bags and then he settled down for a while.
00:57:17And then once again, when the money got over, he started the agitation once again.
00:57:22So what happened in Delhi during that time?
00:57:25And do you see him reviving himself?
00:57:28Look, let me say that had Rajshekhar Reddy not died,
00:57:33I don't think the Telangana movement would have got the kind of momentum it did.
00:57:37KCR also was at the right place at the right time at the time.
00:57:39He's a very astute politician.
00:57:42But I think he made a mistake in 2023,
00:57:44didn't drop enough sitting MLAs and paid a huge price for it.
00:57:50Can he make a comeback?
00:57:51Of course he can.
00:57:53Anyone can.
00:57:54To be honest, in politics, never write off anyone, especially someone like him
00:57:57who understands the situation on the ground.
00:58:00But he's also going to have to change his style.
00:58:03So you can't sit in your farmhouse dictating terms to the rest of the party,
00:58:06unwilling to change candidates,
00:58:09disregarding the media or anyone who may ask him questions.
00:58:13He became a sort of power unto himself.
00:58:16He has to change if he wants to survive.
00:58:18If he doesn't, he'll be overtaken by the BJP as the principal challenger
00:58:22now in Andhra Pradesh going ahead.
00:58:24So KCR has his work cut out.
00:58:27He's never had to experience such a long spell,
00:58:30really with no hope at the end of the tunnel of returning to power.
00:58:35But as I said with Mr.
00:58:37Modi, when you've been in politics 40, 50 years,
00:58:39you know how to deal with various situations.
00:58:42And therefore, I would hesitate to write off KCR.
00:58:45So that's pretty much my time.
00:58:46But our viewer has one question for you.
00:58:48We actually ran a poll saying, if you have any questions for Mr.
00:58:51Rajdeep Sardesai, the question was,
00:58:55Mr. Modi happens to be the protagonist in all your three books since 2014.
00:59:00So then how do you respond to the allegation that is Mr.
00:59:04Rajdeep Sardesai also using brand Narendra Modi to sell books?
00:59:08Look, first of all, I write these books, not so much to sort of sell them
00:59:12or make them bestsellers.
00:59:13I write them because I think it's important to document
00:59:15the challenging times in which we live.
00:59:17And I have had some time, especially in the last 18 months, to put it together.
00:59:22So, you know, am I using brand Modi?
00:59:26No, Mr.
00:59:26Brand Modi is the central figure of our times, central political actor of our time.
00:59:30Naturally, he will be a central figure in my books.
00:59:33But to say that I'm trying to sell my books through the Modi name is rubbish.
00:59:38You know, it's ironic.
00:59:41There's only one chapter in the media and yet everyone wants questions on the media.
00:59:45No one wants to ask questions on COVID, on Hindutva,
00:59:48on Enforcement Directorate, on Election Commission.
00:59:52Far more important questions.
00:59:54I've pretty much covered all of them.
00:59:55Yeah, but the point I'm making is that, you know, there's a general sense that,
01:00:00you know, everyone comes back to Modi.
01:00:03Okay, if that's the way, that's the way.
01:00:05I'm okay with that.
01:00:06Thank you, sir.
01:00:07Thank you for giving us your time.
01:00:08But while ending as well, I request my viewers to read this book.
01:00:14You might agree, you might disagree.
01:00:16Either ways, I think it's a good read for somebody who's interested in politics.
01:00:19Thank you so much and good luck with everything that you do.
01:00:21Thank you so much, Akash, and good to see you.
01:00:23Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you.