Vor zwei Jahren war Finnland noch ein bündnisfreies, militärisch neutrales Land.
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00:00UNTERTITELUNG
00:30I catch up with Heike Otto, MP for Lapland and Chair of the Grand Committee of the Finnish Parliament.
00:38So, Heike Otto, Chair of the Grand Committee here in Helsinki.
00:42Thanks very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:45Well, I want to start off with Finland and the discussions that are happening in the EU at the moment
00:53and over the next few months around defence spending.
00:55We've heard, for example, Mark Rutte, the Secretary General of NATO, saying Europe needs to pay more.
01:01We know that Donald Trump's main message is Europe needs to pay more.
01:06And we hear that Finland might be open to the issue of defence funds.
01:12We will assist Ukraine and we will use all the necessary means.
01:17But, of course, I would like to turn the discussion towards how we make Russia pay.
01:24We have hundreds of billions of frozen Russian assets in Europe.
01:30And, of course, we have to find a legal framework to use those to support Ukraine now, during the war,
01:39but also to rebuild the country.
01:43It cannot be the way that Russians can come and kill and rape, destroy homes and schools and hospitals,
01:52and then they wouldn't have to pay for what they have done.
01:55Of course, the European Union and the West need to find the legal framework to use the frozen Russian assets to pay.
02:05But, otherwise, Finland has not closed any option to aid Ukraine,
02:12because we have to give the message to the front lines that we do all the necessary means to support Ukraine.
02:21Because so far defence funds have been off the table, because countries like Germany and others are not supporting it.
02:27So, can I just ask you Finnish position on this?
02:30As I mentioned, we don't close any option away at the moment,
02:35because our message to the Ukrainians fighting for their lives and fighting for our freedom also,
02:41is that we do everything in our powers to aid them to win their struggle against the evil that is threatening the peace and stability in Europe.
02:54What comes to this kind of bond question, that's more of a technical at the moment, I would say.
03:01Because it doesn't make a significant shift from Finnish policy when it comes to extra EU spending.
03:07I suppose that's because of the nature of the threat.
03:10Everybody in Europe understands that this is really an existential issue for not only Finland and the countries neighbouring Russia,
03:19but the whole of Europe and for the whole free world.
03:22You've got a particularly large border with Russia, over 1300 kilometres.
03:27We've heard that there is hybrid war taking place here from Russia.
03:32Also, there is the concerns around the Russian shadow fleet.
03:36There is GPS jamming. Can you talk us through some of what's been happening?
03:41Well, Finland is very well prepared.
03:44We have been preparing for this kind of situation for decades.
03:49I can say for 80 years now.
03:52And my message to other Europeans is that this hybrid war that is ongoing and takes shapes like cyber attacks,
04:01but also different sabotage and using irregular migration to pressure governments,
04:08it's not aimed only towards Finland or the neighbouring countries,
04:14but Russia is trying to destabilise the whole of Europe.
04:18So the whole of Europe has to take this hybrid war seriously.
04:23And because Russia cannot pressure us by threatening in the way of conventional war,
04:30because we are all members of NATO, the hybrid war is the mean they use to threaten us.
04:37What is the Finnish position on Ukraine joining NATO as part of a negotiation
04:43where NATO would give Article 5 protections for the unoccupied territories at least?
04:49Well, of course, Ukraine must have, and the people of Ukraine must have,
04:53the possibility to choose for their own future.
04:56And if they are willing to join NATO, I believe NATO has to live by its own standards
05:03and enable all the free European nations to join.
05:07So, of course, Ukraine needs to have this path.
05:11But first NATO and us as NATO countries need to enable Ukraine to win this war,
05:19that they can have peace in their own country,
05:21and that they have this integrity of their internationally recognised border.
05:27Donald Tusk and Emmanuel Macron are discussing potentially sending 40,000 troops,
05:32peacekeeping troops into Ukraine after the war.
05:36Is that something that Finland would support, given how, as you mentioned,
05:41well protected but also well trained people are or troops and conscripts are here?
05:47Well, Finland has a history of being almost a superpower in peacekeeping,
05:53and we have taken part in nearly all the major UN operations.
06:01And it's interesting to see if this kind of operation has UN backing
06:06or would it be only EU operation.
06:10But first we need to have the deal.
06:13What I say to all the Europeans is that we cannot close any option
06:19how to enable Ukraine to win the war, find peace in Ukrainian terms,
06:25and after that, of course, we have to support the peace in all the necessary ways.
06:32And just moving on to Syria,
06:33what do you think the implications of the fall of Assad are for Russia in the region?
06:38Well, of course, that was very humiliating for Putin.
06:41We know that some of the generals that have been doing poorly,
06:46and of course we are happy that Russian generals are generally doing very poorly,
06:51have been moved from Ukrainian front to Syria,
06:55and now they were totally humiliated by the rebels.
06:59So, of course, at the moment we are happy for the Syrian people
07:02that they at least have the possibility to start a democratic new era for their nation.
07:12But, of course, at the same time we have to be realistic
07:14that we've already heard some voices that are talking about
07:19the type of government they have in Afghanistan, and that's, of course, worrying.
07:24Before Assad fell, some countries, Georgia, Melania, Italy, Denmark, Hungary,
07:31were considering normalization with Assad in order to send Syrians back to Syria,
07:38even though we knew that there was an industrial scale of torture, of murder,
07:43of massacre by Assad and his regime for the last few decades.
07:47Is that, I suppose, a warning cry that European policy on asylum is getting too hard line
07:56and not empathetic enough?
07:58Well, that's at the moment something we don't need to worry about
08:01because the rebels were successful and Assad is now in Moscow.
08:06But, of course, we as West should help now Ukraine, I mean Ukraine foremost,
08:16but Syria also, to build up democratic society.
08:19And then, of course, Syrian people are free then to choose their own future.
08:25Finland has stopped anyway asylum processing for Syrians for the moment,
08:30but do you think there should be now a push or encouragement to send Syrians back,
08:35or is it too early to say, given that you mentioned this talk about an Afghanistan-type rule in Syria?
08:42Well, I would say it's too early to say what happens.
08:46We as EU and West should help the interim government in Syria
08:53to be able to establish democratic and rules-based society rule of law
09:00and the basic human rights and freedoms for the people.
09:05And I believe after that there will be, of course, Syrians traveling back to their home country.
09:12But I hope that Syria will develop to be a society where Syrians are in the future free to move to Europe as well if they so choose.
09:22So I really hope that this could be a turning point for the Middle East
09:29to start to build up more democratic societies there.
09:34What do you say to countries like Ireland and Austria and Malta,
09:37who are not members of NATO, call themselves neutral,
09:40and they don't give any support when it comes to the security of the European Union or the EU as a whole?
09:47Well, the first priority is, of course, to take care of everybody's own defense.
09:54And after that, the second most important priority is to support Ukraine.
10:00And I believe all the countries you mentioned have been supporting Ukraine in the ways that have been possible for them.
10:07And if they only could somehow intensify the support,
10:12I believe the West together we will succeed to help Ukraine to win this horrible war.
10:19And just on Hungary and Slovakia, countries that are actively hostile to supporting Ukraine, what do you say to them?
10:25Well, it's a pity.
10:27And I believe countries that have had in their past issues with the Russian Soviet Union
10:35should all remember what the Russians and Soviets have been capable of doing
10:40and understand that we don't want to see that to happen to anybody.
10:44We can see with our own eyes that it's happening at the Ukraine this very moment.
10:49Just a final question, because you're the MP for Lapland, which is the busiest time of year for you.
10:54Santa is leaving from Lapland to travel around the world.
10:58But it's also a place which held NATO's largest ever artillery exercise,
11:03and that's within the year of Finland joining NATO, a sign of the times.
11:08Well, that's how it is.
11:10And as already mentioned, if we wish for peace, we have to prepare for war.
11:16So this is the situation we have at the moment in my hometown in Rovaniemi at the Arctic Circle,
11:22that there are thousands and thousands of people around the world coming to meet Santa Claus.
11:27And I can see the bright eyes of the children, how happy they are when they meet Santa.
11:32And at the same time, we have thousands of military personnel from all over Europe
11:37and also North America coming for the exercise to build a peaceful future.
11:43Okay, well, Heike Otto, Chairman of the Grand Committee here at the Parliament in Helsinki in Finland,
11:49thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation, and happy Christmas to you.
11:53Well, thank you, and happy Christmas to everybody.