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00:00Today, Wednesday, December 18, is International Migrants Day, a day to raise awareness about
00:05the challenges and difficulties for migrants today.
00:08We're going to talk more about this now in detail with my guest, Mark Storrella, a professor
00:13at Boston University.
00:14Mark, you were also a U.S. Foreign Service officer for more than three decades.
00:18You're a former ambassador, and you were also Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for
00:21Refugees and Migration, so you're well-placed to talk about all of this with us.
00:26Thanks for joining us.
00:27If you would, just to start, can you give us the layout of the situation today for migrants
00:31around the world?
00:32Sure.
00:33Sure.
00:34First, migration is one of the mega trends of this century.
00:37It's a phenomenon that we're going to be dealing with for the rest of the century.
00:40Right now, about 281 million people are migrants in the world.
00:45That means they've crossed borders.
00:47But that's normal.
00:48That's orderly.
00:49Those are people going for jobs and education and so forth.
00:52But what's really impressive is the number of forcibly displaced people who are persecuted,
00:56fleeing conflict, and who are leaving their homes because they must.
01:00And that number now stands, according to UNHCR, at 117 million in the world.
01:05And that's up from just 33 million just 10 years ago.
01:09So the number keeps going up, and generally, refugees aren't going home.
01:15One of the things that's most important about this is that most of these refugees are being
01:19generated from conflicts in just four countries, Afghanistan, Iran, Venezuela, and Syria,
01:27which is one of the most important conflicts generating refugees and displacement within
01:31its own country.
01:33So given that that's where the biggest crises are, as you mentioned, would you say that
01:37all refugees around the world are treated the same?
01:40I mean, when there's a lot of international focus, a lot of media focus on those four
01:43countries that you mentioned, what about all of the other refugees around the world?
01:48So I'm afraid I have to say absolutely not.
01:51Refugees are treated differently depending on their circumstances, where they are, and
01:55what attention the international community pays to them.
01:58So for instance, the international community has generated something over $28 billion in
02:04humanitarian assistance in the last year.
02:07But certain crises, like the crisis in Ukraine, attract most of that attention, and especially
02:13because those crises are close to countries that are big donors, like Germany and France
02:19and the United States.
02:21So there's a lot going on in just a few places.
02:24If you go to countries that are farther from the centers that are generating all this donor
02:30money, mostly in Africa, frequently those folks receive very little assistance from
02:35the international community, and they don't have even basics.
02:38They don't even have food and shelter frequently.
02:41So really, there's a huge difference amongst refugees in different places.
02:44I would also add that there's a difference in the way countries treat refugees.
02:49Frequently, some countries will provide lots of assistance.
02:52Turkey is doing a fantastic job with Syrian refugees, but other countries are unable to.
02:57Lebanon has done a great job within its means, but has very few means to support refugees.
03:03You were talking earlier about some of these countries that aren't getting the spotlight
03:06at all.
03:07I mean, which countries are most at risk of slipping through the cracks, so to speak?
03:11I mean, which migrant crisis have been the most forgotten?
03:15You know, countries have to, the international community has to prioritize where it will
03:19spend its attention.
03:20I worked hard on the Rohingya refugee crisis in Bangladesh, in Myanmar.
03:27Those refugees fled, over a million, and initially there was an enormous outpouring of support
03:32for them.
03:33But now that support is beginning to dwindle.
03:35What we see is that the appeals put out by the United Nations, which were initially funded
03:40at something like 80% of what was required, are now dwindling down to more like 40% of
03:47what is required.
03:48If we look at a lot of the crises in Africa, including Sudan, which is an emerging mega-crisis,
03:54the support is even less.
03:56And in many of those cases, it's hard to get to those locations as well.
04:01So we have some important trends going on in terms of the level of support for migrants
04:05around the world, but also really big political trends that are affecting the way people look
04:10at migrants and refugees.
04:12About that.
04:13I mean, looking toward the future, how could those trends, the politics of today, affect
04:16the future of migration?
04:20One of the things that we're seeing, whether in the United States or in Europe, or for
04:24that matter, in India, in Turkey and other parts of the world, is an increasing level
04:31of identification with nationalism and borders.
04:35It is most striking that Donald Trump, in 2015 when he announced his campaign, the main
04:41plank of that campaign was about the problem of migration.
04:47And he ran on that again this year and was elected.
04:50In Europe, we saw Angela Merkel make a decision to admit 1 million Syrian refugees.
04:56And shortly after that, for a number of reasons, not just that, she was no longer chancellor.
05:01And now the European Union is itself putting together a new pact on migrants and asylum
05:07seekers, which is more restrictive.
05:09So we're seeing a populist movement against refugees and migrants around the world.
05:15And that is leading to borders that are harder to cross and the likelihood that there will
05:20be less support for refugees who are in sometimes absolutely urgent need.
05:25You mentioned a moment ago, Syria, obviously the war there provoked one of the biggest
05:29refugee crises as we've seen in recent years.
05:32I mean, what kind of implications might there be from now on in regard to migration following
05:37the end of the Assad regime?
05:40The end of the Assad regime has been greeted everywhere with great relief and in many cases
05:45joy.
05:46But we're all wondering what will come next.
05:48In the case of Syria, I know Syrian refugees who are saying, we'd like to go back.
05:53And I've heard from friends who were in the region who said that after the fall, they
05:58saw cars streaming into Syria from surrounding countries, presumably representing refugees.
06:06Right now we're seeing a debate inside the European Union already about whether this
06:10change means that refugees inside the European Union should be sent back to Syria.
06:15According to the High Commissioner for Refugees and the Refugee Convention as it is interpreted,
06:21we generally say refugees should not go back unless it's voluntary, safe, and in dignity.
06:27That might be a high bar in a case like Syria where the country is so broken.
06:31Nevertheless, there will be a strong push by the refugees themselves to return, but
06:36probably by surrounding governments, including Turkey and Lebanon and perhaps the European
06:40Union to see refugees go back.
06:43Mark, thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us on this World Migration Day.
06:47Mark Storella at Boston University.
06:49Thanks very much.