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00:00Hi, and welcome to the next of our webinars of the Welsh Rugby Union, and this one is
00:12about VI rugby or visually impaired rugby. I'm really quite lucky to have Alex on the
00:17call from the Change Foundation. So Alex, could you give us a bit about yourself and
00:23also about Change Foundation?
00:24Absolutely. First of all, Darren, thanks ever so much for inviting me on. I'm really excited
00:29about sharing the game of visually impaired rugby. But as you mentioned, I'm Alex Basson.
00:34I'm the head of business development for the Change Foundation. We're a charity that's
00:3939 years old, and we use sport to create transformational change in young people. We currently run nine
00:46projects predominantly across London, as I said, looking at using sport to create that
00:51transformational change and long-term change. And most recently, the last couple of years,
00:56we've developed visually impaired rugby. I myself have been to the charity for 12 years
01:02and started off as an apprentice. I spent my career developing as a coach mentor to
01:08where I had quite heavy influence in the training side of our work, which has now led me into
01:14business development.
01:15That's brilliant. And I can see like going all the way from apprentice right the way
01:19through that you're completely bought into it. You believe in the values of the organisation
01:23and you've been heavily involved in a lot of things, VI Rugby being one of those. So
01:28that leads me to my first real question. So what is VI Rugby?
01:33Absolutely. So VI Rugby is essentially a game of rugby for visually impaired people. It's
01:40a seven-a-side touch format of the game, six touches and a turnover. What I'd love people
01:46to imagine is imagine watching a game of touch rugby, seven-a-side touch rugby, but everyone
01:52on the pitch is registered blind or has a visual impairment. The game came about from
02:00our contacts as a charity. We were heavily involved in blind cricket and setting up blind
02:06cricket many years ago, which is now run by the ECB. We got to a few of our contacts who
02:13play cricket for the England Blind Cricket Team, and we found that there wasn't rugby.
02:17There was a passion for the game. There was a love for the game, but there wasn't the
02:21game out there. So we got a group of players together, and the first question we actually
02:26asked was, you know, how do you want the game to be? And basically the question they said
02:32or the answer they gave is, we just want to play rugby. We want to play the game. We don't
02:36want to pass the ball forwards. We don't want to have limitations. We just want to play
02:40the game. So the first thought was safety is number one, and that's where the touch
02:46format came into it, and then the game started to grow. How do we make it more like the game?
02:52How do we keep it like the game? So we just said, instead of changing the rules, we'll
02:57adapt things within the game. So as I said, we keep it seven aside, two hand touch for
03:02a tackle. Once the tackle's been made, ball goes on the floor, you step over, dummy half
03:08comes in, plays the ball, off we go. Defence, once they've made a tackle, drops back five.
03:15Then once they're onside, they can move up. We've got uncontested scrums at BV3, uncontested
03:21scrum, and we've got uncontested line-ups to keep it more like Union. Some of the biggest
03:26changes within the game probably is we've got an audible ball. We've worked with Gilbert
03:30to make the ball audible. It's got some bells in it and some ball bearings to make it, you
03:36know, we can use some of our other senses a little bit more. We also use bright coloured
03:41clothing with large numbers on the back so the player can be recognised just like a normal
03:46game of rugby by their number. So instead of, you know, you there, you're offside, well,
03:51who is that? When you can say, blue four, you're offside, or blue three, knock on, then
04:00that interaction with the player becomes easier to understand what's on the pitch. But the
04:06biggest change that we made was around the refereeing. Now, the world of referees in
04:12any sport, I think rugby really does stand out, the way that a referee in rugby communicates
04:18with the players on the pitch, and that is the key thing there, the communication. So
04:21what we decided was essentially the referee becomes the commentator as well as the official
04:28within the game. So whilst the game's happening, a little bit like league, once a tackle's
04:33been made, the referee will say, tackle number one, defence, come back in line with me, so
04:38the referee wouldn't step back five metres. As soon as the ball's placed and stepped over,
04:43the ball is out, and then that means that the defensive line know that they can then
04:49step up. So you essentially got the referee commentating, tackle one, defence in with
04:55me, the ball is out, play resumed. Tackle number two, defence back in line with me,
05:01but what the referee will be doing at the same time is refereeing in line with the ball.
05:06So wherever the ball moves on the pitch, the referee will follow. So players roughly know
05:11wherever they can hear the referee, that's roughly where the ball is situated on the pitch.
05:16And we didn't realise how big the game would get, and we didn't realise how fast the game
05:24would flow. You've got a real mixture of different visual impairments, and actually,
05:30we've had a few comments before of, oh, which touch team is this? And it's like, well, actually,
05:34it's the visually impaired touch team. What do you mean? Well, everyone on the pitch is registered
05:38blind, and it really takes people by surprise of how quick the game is, how fast the ball moves,
05:45but also our biggest thing was how safe we could make it.
05:51Well, I mean, and that's great, and it does sound, you know, really quite fast-paced,
05:56and you touched on it in your answer there. I mean, like, being a layman, I hear about
06:04visually impaired rugby, sort of the first question that comes to mind really is, like,
06:08what sort of range of impairments do you have there, you know, like visually impaired?
06:14And could you elaborate a little bit more about the range of impairments that are playing the game?
06:19Absolutely. So a lot of time when people hear, you know, blind sport or visually impaired sport,
06:24they automatically assume that, you know, the individual is completely blind. Now, actually,
06:29we look across some of the stats pulled out. Across the country, there's only around 3% of
06:34people who have complete sight loss, and they fit into different categories, which there are across
06:39sport, for blind sport, you've got B1 up to B5, so blind one up to blind five. Your complete,
06:46you know, non-sighted players, your blind players fit into a B1 category, and then sight increases
06:53through a different variety of ways up to B5, which, you know, your majority better sighted
06:58players. And there'll be various different reasons for sight loss, whether it's, you know,
07:02loss of central vision, loss of peripheral vision, some may have blurred vision or be very sensitive
07:09to extreme light. And some of your players who are fitting into B2 category, and some creeping into
07:16a B3 category, remember, as the number goes up, the sight gets better, is that for a lot of B2
07:21players, so they're not completely blind, but they may have a low amount of sight, tend to have
07:28night blindness, which is when it gets dark, and it's night, they've got no vision at all. So,
07:35we predominantly have a range of different visual impairments, we had to come to a decision around
07:42what categories play this game. Now, if we look across different varieties of visually impaired
07:48sport, it's very rare that you have all categories playing the sport. From what I understand,
07:53there's only two sports that do that, and that's cricket and blind tennis, you know, have B1s up
07:59to B4s playing the game. So, for a safety element, we trial the game with B1 players, so those who,
08:08you know, are blind and have no sight. And unfortunately, we found that it was a couple
08:13of things. One, there's a safety element, you started having static, unfortunately, bodies in
08:21the game from, you know, they're involved, they're playing, they've passed, because the game moved
08:26quite quickly, suddenly they're static. And if you've, you know, got someone who may have lost
08:30some peripheral vision, and they're receiving the ball, suddenly they've got a bollard in their way.
08:35So, that was one, number one, our biggest thing always is safety, how do we make the game accessible
08:40and safe? And number two, we started to really adapt the rules and change the rules so much that
08:46the game stopped becoming like rugby. And that was the first thing, the first thing I got told by
08:5230, 40 people with visual impairment, we just want to play the game. So, we had to make a decision
08:58around B1s, that actually whilst we're playing the game, this is going to be for B2s and B4s.
09:07So, the reason we did that, and we haven't gone for B5s, because B5s can have a lot of sight,
09:13some B5s have even known to be driving, and you've got people turned up to a game who are driving and
09:18trying to get B2s who might only have, you know, six, 7% vision. Again, it becomes unfair. So,
09:23not only is it safe, it's now unfair. So, competition and tournament level, we say,
09:29if you go to British Blind Sport, and they can do a test to see which category you fall into,
09:37it's for players at competition level of B2 to B4. Now, what does that mean at club and
09:44community level? Well, actually, at club and community level, any sport you play,
09:49whether you have a disability or you don't have a disability, everyone should be included,
09:53everyone should be inclusive. So, what we do at community and club level is we say that
09:58everyone can turn up to training, whether you're a B1 or a B5, because a lot of B5s,
10:03former players might have hereditary lost some of their sight, so they've got a lot to offer,
10:08as well as B1 players. B1 players, there's still room for you to throw a ball around,
10:13there's still room for team managers, coaches, whatever it may be. So, our biggest thing at
10:19club level is actually everyone can be part of it, everyone can play, there's a role for everyone
10:24within the club, but we are very cautious and tight on A, the safety element, and B,
10:30the fairness level, that when it comes to tournament playing, it's B2 through to B4.
10:37Mate, that's really, really clear, and it's good to see that the thought process that's
10:42gone behind that, and I mean, that makes complete sense. So, I mean, like, the game
10:47sounds exciting, it's got that niche sort of format, you know, that's catering to people
10:52with visual impairment. How has it grown internationally?
10:58Oh, it's absolutely flown internationally, excuse the pun. We decided at quite an early stage that,
11:09you know, we're going to kind of turn the development of this on its head. Normally,
11:13you start, like we do with most things, at grassroots level, and you grow it naturally,
11:20you know, in 10, 15 years, it might become something international. What we realised is
11:24that we had quite a high level of visually impaired sportsmen and women that actually
11:31could grow the game quite quickly, because it's been played at a good standard, and we can showcase
11:36it quite well. So, luckily for us, we have a rugby-loving CEO who completely gets it,
11:43but we decided to do some showcase pieces along the way. So, as well as grow it in London,
11:48as well as grow it across England, we thought, why don't we use this opportunity in some of the
11:55rugby stages to grow the game and do some showcase pieces? So, in 2017, when we started growing the
12:04game, we decided to develop it in New Zealand. We decided to go to New Zealand, it was a year
12:10of Alliance tour, and we built a relationship with Blind Sport New Zealand, who were not as
12:18welcoming as we thought, for reasons. When we first turned up, we had a group of visually
12:24impaired people asking us, why are we here, to tell them how to play rugby? And I first said,
12:30look, you're in New Zealand, we're not here to tell you how to play rugby, we're here to tell
12:35that you can play rugby. So, what we did is we spent five days, it was quite a short trip,
12:42five days in New Zealand, setting up the Blind All Blacks. We developed the game with, we coached
12:50and trained players, coaches, volunteers, and we linked in at the time with QBE, who were able to
12:57offer us the training pitches at the QBE stadium. We then developed a Blind Lions team in the UK,
13:04which we trained, and we took out to New Zealand, we played three match test series
13:09in 2017, which was really the first time VI rugby had been put on the map.
13:16After that, we did the next showcase piece, actually at Twickenham, during Big Game 10,
13:20between Harlequins and WOS. We're supported by the WOS Legends Charitable Foundation,
13:25who have been instrumental in supporting us to develop our work across England,
13:30and linking it in with premiership clubs across the country. We managed to get some players in
13:37the team to play on the pitch at Twickenham, represent a Harlequins VI rugby team against
13:43a WOS Legends team, which again, enabled us to take that next step. That next step was then going
13:50to Japan during the World Cup, which, you know, this is all starting to sound very magical,
13:55but there's a lot of work that goes into it. We found an amazing woman called Ayako Matsui, who
14:01was an inaugural and a great part of developing blind tennis. I sent out about 15 emails across
14:10Japan, and she was the only one to come back to me. Again, same model, we went out to Japan,
14:16we spent four days, two and a half days training players, training coaches,
14:22getting that structure set up, so it wasn't just here the game, and when we leave, we go. It's
14:27actually, here's a structure to tell VI players, or encourage VI players, that you can play this
14:34game. Here's the confidence to coaches, to coach, to train, but also here's a structure to develop
14:40a club, to develop a sustainable model to move forward. Again, we developed an England team
14:47that we took over in October during the World Cup, and again played a three-match series,
14:53and this time we had support from What's Legends, some of their former players,
14:58Serge Bettson, Simon Shaw, Lions players and Six Nations players themselves, played for country.
15:05Again, that momentum started to build, and at that time, we started to find that people wanted
15:10to support it more, so businesses wanted to support it, the sporting minister wanted to support it in
15:15Japan, and for us, we came back from Japan, and that's when it really started to grow.
15:20People started to pay a little bit more interest and realised, actually,
15:23this is now a proven model, it's a proven game, it actually has the benefits physically and mentally
15:30of what, again, rugby gives you for visually impaired players. It's creating a new generation
15:34of players, but also, we've had members in that team that have now gone on to have better
15:41lifestyles, to feel more comfortable travelling on their own, to be able to step onto a pitch with
15:47their siblings or their kids, and all these great things that have come out of it, not just the fact
15:53that they've played the game, but the fact that they're actually starting to enhance their life
15:57outside of rugby, which is something that we've always wanted to do. From there, one of our
16:03ambassadors, Ian McKinley, who's been a top Italian rugby player, the one in Ireland, he ended up
16:09having an eye injury himself, meant he couldn't play and rebuilt his career. He's a fantastic
16:14ambassador for us, which has then lent itself to developing some Six Nations work in Italy,
16:19and we're looking at Ireland, and obviously yourselves in Wales, and we'll get on to it a
16:23little bit later, how Wales and Cardiff Blues especially have been the pioneers of this game as
16:29well. But for us, it's been amazing. We've had some interest now from America and Romania and
16:36some other non-top-10 rugby-playing nations, and for us, it's all about giving people
16:42opportunity, and that's what this game hopefully is doing. Wow. Sorry, there's a lot there.
16:50What a journey. I mean, it's amazing to see the development of it and how it's
16:59quickly becoming a global game. You touched on it a little bit earlier on,
17:05but how did you become involved in the development of the iRugby?
17:13Absolutely. So again, we as a charity have a massive philosophy around innovate and share,
17:20and we've done that for the 39 years we've been around, whether it was through our
17:27gangs cricket programme we created, or whether it's through refugee cricket or a boxing programme,
17:33whatever it is, we've got a big philosophy around let's do it, let's try it, let's create it,
17:41let's fail, let's build it back up, and then let's give it away, because we all want to do the same
17:47result. So for us, it was really around looking at some of our networks, hearing from some of
17:56our visually impaired colleagues and people we work with, there isn't this game, and it was
18:02ultimately talking to a couple of colleagues and going, should we do it? Well, yeah,
18:07go on then, what's stopping us? So getting a group of people together, getting out, trialling,
18:13failing, redoing, sharing, and hearing from others, actually, this is what's worked for us,
18:20re-going again, there's how many hands those laws have passed, I can't count anymore.
18:28We've built a really good relationship with World Rugby in Ireland, and Jamie McEwen,
18:34and essentially really speaking to them, and not ever really, we never ask for money,
18:39what we're asking for is your advice, your guidance, this is what we're aiming to do,
18:43these are our laws, these are our coaching guidelines, are we on the right track? Are
18:48we doing the right things? Are we, you know, insurance wise, all these things tick in the
18:53right box? And I think that is what I think has made Partners Games so successful, is that we've
19:00been so open about, you know, listening to people, bringing on board some of that advice, that
19:06guidance, it's not just been off the shelf, this is what it is, now go do it. If there's improvements
19:11to make, if there's things to do, then we're willing to listen. And I think, you know, that's
19:18why our involvement in it, and hopefully it will grow for the next few years, it has been hopefully
19:25key for people, because I think we've been so open around innovating and sharing,
19:31that that's why the game's been able to grow so much. And, you know, we're, just like yourselves,
19:37being open and listening, and actually what works in Wales might not work in South Africa,
19:42that might not even work in Manchester, or in London, so it's all about, you know, listening
19:47to the people that are on the ground, and being able to work together to ensure that it has its growth.
19:58No, that's brilliant. You know, like it's, again, you know, it's quite a journey, and it's been
20:05great to see, you know, like you mentioned, about being open and not being afraid to fail, and going
20:09back and reworking. You know, what sort of, you know, benefits do you think people would have,
20:18you know, potential players that are out there that might be listening to this, you know, for
20:24VI Rugby? What would be the real benefits? Absolutely. So I think, you know, the benefits of
20:32playing a physical sport, we know for your physical health and your mental health are huge.
20:38So not only, you know, do you have all of those things that you'd get from going to the gym,
20:44or running, or just, you know, being in an environment where you're running around,
20:48throwing a ball around, all of those things really, you know, have been proven that it helps
20:53you physically, and it helps you mentally. So again, you know, our thing is about creating a
20:58generation of new rugby players, you know, giving this experience, and that's what it is, it's an
21:03experience of just being able to play the game, it is one of the brilliant things, you know, just
21:10being able to step onto a pitch, being able to try, if you don't like it, that's fine, but hopefully
21:14what you've done is you've had an opportunity to play. What else it does, it, you know, it has
21:19shown over these years that it builds friendships, it builds relationships for players, it builds
21:25confidence, you know, for some players they were born with sight loss, so they've been able to
21:33overcome some of those challenges and adapt, but never had the opportunity to play, here you go.
21:39Now for some of our players, they've gained sight loss at a later date in life, so they may have
21:47played the game, they may have built friendships, relationships at a rugby club, but now suddenly
21:53they can't play the sport that they love anymore. Well this has given you the opportunity to come and
21:57play that sport again, come and be part of a rugby team, come and be part of a club, you know, share
22:04your knowledge, share your experience with other players that will benefit from you. So we've seen
22:08this real growth in friendships, relationships, confidence, you know, better mental health,
22:15and a sense of belonging, a sense of not feeling isolated, not feeling vulnerable, because actually,
22:21you know, players get together before training and travel together. After training, they might
22:26go for a pint, or they might watch the rugby, all these things that actually we do at rugby clubs,
22:32or we've done at sport clubs over the years, have now hopefully become accessible. Now that's for
22:37the players, you know, and that doesn't include some of the overseas trips we do, which we know
22:41travelling overseas really does open up so many other opportunities, and really builds you as a
22:47character and as an individual. But I think one of the other beauties of what we're doing is about
22:54educating and enhancing coaches, volunteers, and community clubs. One of the biggest things we do
23:01within our training is not only, you know, share the game and tell you about how to adapt your
23:07coaching styles, your abilities to fit visually impaired rugby, but what can you do as a club
23:12to make your club more inviting, more accessible to visually impaired players? You know, if you've
23:18got the Six Nations on happening down here, we want to encourage those players to come and be
23:23part of the club as well. So how do we make it accessible? You know, if your club's 30 minutes
23:27from the nearest public transport, is that accessible? So how do you overcome some of these
23:33barriers? And another big piece we've put in is around eye health education. So educating
23:41sighted coaches, volunteers, and people about how to look after your eye health. You know, diet has a
23:47big part of it, and you know, being in front of screens and watching TV, and how can you just
23:52change a few things within your day-to-day environment to make sure that you prolong
23:59your eyesight, or if you find that something's happening, that you catch it early enough. So
24:05there's kind of two benefits. This is not only those playing, those benefiting from a physical
24:11or mental side of things, and developing new friendships and confidence, but also for clubs,
24:17for coaches, for volunteers who want to be part of the game, you know, building up their coaching
24:22skill sets, but also their understanding of how to operate in a visually impaired world, but also an
24:29education around their own eye health as well. So it's quite a big piece actually, and again,
24:36you know, the likes of the RNIB, who we work closely with in Wales and the UK, have been
24:41instrumental in developing that side of the work around the eye health education, and our clubs in
24:45the South, you know, people like British Blind Sport, Vision Foundation, who have been instrumental in
24:51using their knowledge and their support to ensure that what we're delivering is of high quality,
24:58but again, sustainable. We want to be able to go into a community club, coach, volunteer, enthuse, inspire,
25:07that when we walk away, it just doesn't all fall on his arse. We want to ensure that people
25:11have that tier, and have the confidence that, A, keep asking questions, because we're always here,
25:17but B, feel confident enough to experiment and ask the players themselves what is going to benefit you,
25:24and let's go and do it.
25:26No, it's very, very similar to the experiences that I've had first-hand, working quite in depth with
25:34Mixed Ability Rugby and the players with disabilities within those teams, and indeed, quite a few players
25:41do have visual impairments, which I'm glad to say, you know, they'll be able to play both formats
25:46going forward, and it really is about that personal growth, about getting people to believe in
25:51themselves, to push their boundaries of what they think they're capable of, and it lasts much further
25:59beyond the realms of a rugby pitch, which in a lot of ways is truly life-changing, and speaking to a lot
26:07of guys about going away on rugby tours, a lot of these guys have never left Wales, quite tight-knit
26:19within their community, and, you know, a little bit scared of, you know, pushing those boundaries,
26:24and, you know, again, it's about using the vehicle of the sport to be able to really get people to
26:29believe, you know, and I think our values within rugby align quite well with that, as well, you
26:34know, we've got a strong sense of community. So, all the positives, let's see if there's any
26:40negatives. So, my next question is, you know, what sort of barriers have you come across, you know,
26:47what have you experienced? Absolutely. So, yeah, we've had challenges. I think one of the biggest
26:54ones that always concerned us at the beginning was about, you know, inclusivity, and that B1,
26:59and not feeling like, you know, we're an inclusive organisation, this is an inclusive sport, but then
27:04it's also that realisation of it's got to be safe, and are you then excluding a larger amount of
27:11potential players, just to accommodate a small, smaller group, that 33%, but what we've hopefully
27:19done is encourage people to be part of the club, be part of the community, and that's the biggest
27:25thing for us. So, at first, it was really, you know, making sure we was inclusive, but safe as
27:30possible, and we feel like we've achieved that. I think one of the other difficulties is, you know,
27:37visual impairments are so broad, it's such a wide range, and what is going to affect one person
27:45might not affect another, and so on and so forth. So, if you've got 15 players or a training session,
27:52it's really about adapting to your situation then, and that could be quite challenging. Not only,
27:57you know, do some have different confidence levels, so where you're located will really affect
28:03your training session. Is it accessible? Is, you know, do you have a train line running by it? Is
28:08noise going to affect it? But then, once you're actually in the session, you know, whether a
28:15certain colour bib's great for half of the group and not the other half, and so on and so forth. So,
28:20you're constantly trying to overcome battles when delivering the session as well, and, you know,
28:28challenges always pop up along the way. I think one of the other big ones for us,
28:33we're really, you know, really keen on developing female participation. You know, we've had females
28:40play the game, and we do have females playing the game, but we would like to see, I mean, it's one
28:44of our big, bigger focuses in the strategy moving forward in creating female VI rugby teams, and,
28:50you know, if there's anyone out there who would like to take a lead and help drive it and know
28:55what female participants that want to play, and for us, it's, you know, we've not had as many come
29:01forward, and it's probably been slightly harder to find groups of females who want to play the
29:06game, because, as we know, it's great having three, four, five, but we want to grow it as
29:10much as possible, like we have the male side of the game. And, again, it's a touch format of the
29:17game. We have those questions around, should it be mixed? Actually, we'd love the mixed format of
29:21the game. Touch rugby is a mixed format of the game, but, again, where do we go with that? So,
29:27there's some of the challenges that we face, but I think, you know, they're good challenges to have.
29:32They're really good challenges to have, and, you know, because, again, it's what makes the game
29:39stronger. It's what makes the community stronger, having these challenges that we can overcome
29:43together, and, you know, it's not just for the Change Foundation to solve. It's for all of us
29:48to solve. It's all of us to find these players, you know, find these challenges and overcome them,
29:54but they've been some of the biggest ones. We've been very lucky that we've, again, had support
29:58from funders, from other side organisations to, you know, share their knowledge, to share their
30:05expertise and overcome some challenges, but the biggest ones for us was probably making sure that
30:11it was inclusive and it was ultimately safe. Two, you know, a challenge is always going to be
30:18around the group that you're working with because things are always going to be a challenge for
30:22certain players, but it's about how you adapt and overcome, and you know that you can't please
30:27everyone. It happens at regular club sessions. Someone likes training on astroturf. Someone
30:32likes training on grass and so on and so forth and whatever, but it's knowing that, you know,
30:37you're not going to please everyone, but you've got to do your best to accommodate and make sure
30:41everyone's safe, and then for us is really around our next challenge is really great female
30:47participation in this sort of sport because it's something we want to see. It's something that we
30:51want to grow naturally, and if there's people out there that know of female players that want to
30:59play, then we'd love to develop it, and you know, we'd love to have, like we've got now another
31:05strand of VI rugby for female teams growing out of premiership clubs, out of, you know, clubs in
31:12Wales and Ireland and Italy and wherever, you know, being able to compete at the levels that
31:18they're competing at, club, community and at tournament levels as well.
31:24No, I think there's a lot of comparisons that, you know, like with the sort of barriers,
31:28the, you know, the difficulties that are quite akin to mixed ability rugby as well, and it was,
31:34it was really interesting that you mentioned about, you know, like the females, you know, like
31:40playing in the format women and girls, you know, it's something that again, you know,
31:46with the mixed ability has been on sort of my radar for a little while, you know, and we've
31:51looked quite closely at what sort of player numbers have we got, you know, quite a small country,
31:57is there a way of being able to get these players engaged and then build those numbers and work
32:01towards it? But like you said, it's really good problems to have, because, you know, in the first
32:06place, you need to have a format there to then bolt on and build on and work on, you know, so
32:13we're always moving in the right direction. And I think the best way to do it is with collaboration,
32:17you know, between ourselves and, you know, every organisation, you know, I mean, to pull
32:22everyone together to just make things as good as we can. So, excuse the pun, what does a VI
32:30rugby session look like? Absolutely. So, what does a rugby session look like, essentially, and that
32:41is a VI rugby session, it is no different, it's not going to be any different, you know, we have
32:48players turn up as and when they want, you know, so say Saturday at 11 o'clock, we have a session,
32:56we might meet some players at a station, at a bus stop, if it's their first time, second time,
33:02so they know where to get to in the ground, but essentially, they go into the changing room,
33:07they get changed, have a bit of banter before the game, we warm up together, and then we have our
33:14set targets, we have our set goals, this is what we want to achieve in the session, this is what
33:18we've worked on last week, this is what we're going to look to work towards, but it's all about
33:24adapting it to make it accessible for the players, so if you've got, you know, certain drills that
33:31you're doing, we use the audible ball, or I'll verbally talk a little bit more through the game,
33:37I'll show the game at different angles a little bit more, I'll be conscious of sunlight, if the
33:42sunlight's on me, and it's, you know, all those little things you're a little bit more conscious
33:46about, but it's no different to any other session, any other sports session, it's not going to be
33:52any different, because we want the same results, we want players to grow, we want players to have
33:57fun, we want players to communicate, we want players to succeed, we want players to be challenged,
34:02and overcome those challenges, so essentially, when I'm developing VI rugby sessions,
34:10I don't think of it as a VI rugby session, I think of it as, this is where we're starting, and this
34:15is where I want to get to, how are we going to get, right, these are some of the drills, some of the
34:21gameplay, some of the skills, so we're going to work on lineouts, we're going to work on plays
34:26out of scrum, and I work it as if it is a rugby session, because that's what it is, but I'm just
34:32conscious about, actually, I need to adapt that to make it, you know, accessible, actually players
34:38might be more comfortable starting from this position, whatever it may be, but essentially,
34:45it would be no different to any other rugby session, all you're doing is just making sure that
34:51you're more vocal, you're more verbal, you're more clear, you're more concise, and you've got to pick
34:56up on little things like sun position, cones on the ground, cone colour, if you've got green grass,
35:02don't use green cones, don't use anything, you know, all those little things, and keep it simple,
35:07very, very simple, but I would just say, if you've got rugby coaches out there, and you've got your
35:12planned sections, that is your VI rugby session, it's just how you make sure you get it across
35:19clearly, and comfortably enough for everyone. I absolutely agree, you know, you hit the nail
35:29on the head, and that was kind of what I was getting at, because one of the things that I've
35:32noticed, and again, I'll draw comparisons from mixed ability rugby, is when I've been looking
35:37to bring coaches in to mixed ability rugby, there's that fear factor, the fear of not knowing
35:43what it is, and you know, once you see it nine out of ten times, you know, the coach's response is,
35:50oh, it's just rugby, and it is, and it is, just like you said, about adapting just to better suit the
35:58needs of the participants, so you're being mindful, just like any good coach would be, be mindful of
36:02your participant, and it's no different with VI rugby. No, that's fantastic, so let's get back
36:09onto the real positives, so, you know, what has been your highlight whilst developing VI rugby?
36:17Oh, wow, where do I start? Where do I absolutely start? All the overseas stuff is
36:27obviously a highlight, and you know, yes, because you're visiting countries, and you're traveling,
36:33and whatnot, but for me, the key thing about the overseas work is, and the tours, is that you
36:42get to see that change, you get to see individuals grow, you get to see them overcome fears, you get
36:52to see them, you know, be challenged, and grow. One of the best, one of the stories I love the most
36:58was when we recently went to Japan, and we all met at Gatwick Airport, and we took, we only took
37:05seven players this time, unfortunately, a couple of players fell ill, we couldn't take the full squad,
37:09so we took our bare seven to go and play, and we're at Gatwick Airport, and you know, we've got
37:16boarding parties, we've got luggage, we've got this, and I've got seven players constantly around me
37:22at this airport, and I want to go for a wee, and suddenly four want to go for a wee, and all this
37:26sort of thing, you couldn't, I couldn't even blow my nose about one of them wanting to go, and it's fine,
37:30I get it, you know, it's a trip, we're all nervous, and then, so we end up going to Japan, we do the
37:38tour, and we're flying back, and we're at the airport in Tokyo, and I get through the gate,
37:44and I'm about to, you know, say to everyone, right, give me your passes, give me your passports, boarding
37:48passes, etc, and as I turn around, everyone's gone, and I thought, oh no, where is everyone, and
37:55on the WhatsApp group, saying like, lads, where are you? Oh, I've gone shopping, I've gone for a beer,
38:00I'm going to have some food, I'm making a phone call, I'm chilling out, and I'm just thinking,
38:05I'm on my own, sort of thing, you know, maybe I'm a bit, oh god, but what, what really resonated was
38:11that journey over that 10 days, on how far those individuals have come, that actually, you're at
38:18London Gatwick, in a country you know, language you speak, with people you know,
38:24but that whole unknown, you know, actually, I'm going to stick with a coach, I'm going to stick
38:30with a coach here, and follow him everywhere, but then, you're in a country that you don't know,
38:36at an airport you don't know, a language you don't speak, trying to work your way around, and it's,
38:42I'll see you at the game, so that growth from each player, over, over that 10 days,
38:49just really tells me a lot about what the game can do for individuals, but you know, for me,
38:55some of the highlights is, you know, seeing the game grow, seeing how many other partners we've
39:03got on board, whether you're a funder, whether you're a governing body, whether you're a sight
39:10loss expert, actually, seeing how much the game has grown, from where we started, to where it is
39:18now, and how much it actually, it takes itself, there's so much, much we've had to do, and push,
39:26at the beginning, and all we, a lot of time we get back is, oh, it's not, it's not proven,
39:30it's not been played enough, but we've kept chipping away, and chipping away, to now,
39:35and unions like yourself have gone, actually, we need to realise that this is something we
39:42should be doing, and again, that probably brings me on to one of my third highlights, it is
39:48Wales Rugby Union being the first union to take it on, as part of their strategy, and that's all
39:54we've wanted since day one, is unions to stand up and go, you know, this game is safe, it's
40:01accessible, it gives people the opportunity to play rugby, to grow as individuals, you know,
40:06there's a set of rules, there's a strategy, there's a timeline, and actually, we can train
40:11up other people, it has so many elements to it, and actually now, you know, with the support of
40:17like yourselves, and others, the model's there, and it's how you then want to fit it to your area,
40:24your region, what you do to grow it, and for me, I'm really proud that a union, especially
40:32Wales, you know, who live and breathe rugby, have gone, do you know what, we're going to stand up
40:38and be the first, which I think will now take the growth of this game to the next level,
40:46and we've got a lot of thanks to the Cardiff Blues Foundation around that, you know,
40:50and they have developed what, and the other clubs might boo me for this, but I think they've
40:56developed what is the flagship VI rugby club, you know, they're averaging 12 to 15 players a week,
41:06the players all turn up to the ground, Cardiff Arms, they play on the pitch, and sometimes on
41:11half the, well it's Asher, but half the pitch is them, the other half is the first team,
41:15they all wear their kit, they all feel part of the club, but the best thing about that is
41:20afterwards they all go into the bar, they all hang out, they might have a drink, they'll talk
41:25about rugby, they'll talk about life, they're developing those key core skills, and then
41:29they travel home together, they meet up outside the club, what they've done is they've created
41:35that professional club environment of Cardiff Blues, that community club environment,
41:41and brought it together, so you've got that passion of wearing the badge, playing on the pitch,
41:46developing yourself as a player, but at the same time that community club environment,
41:51which is developing coaches, volunteers, clubs, players, communities, and you know,
41:59that for me, if I could pick up clubs and go right, this is the model we want to do,
42:03the Blues have got it right, and there's many clubs out there doing the same, you know,
42:07Queen's were the first professional club to pick it up, and they've done an amazing job
42:14with making sure that we have case studies to go, this is what we're doing, so the
42:20Queen's Foundation have been amazing, and now other clubs are taking the suit, Wasps,
42:25Sayle, Bristol, increasing Bristol, so it's great to see the growth, it really is great to see the growth.
42:34Not so many highlights, and you know, it leads into the next question, you know what I mean,
42:40but before I get into that, I mean like it was, yeah, you know, I agree with what you said,
42:45you know, like I think the Cardiff Blues, you know, Foundation have done a fantastic job
42:50with taking on VI Rugby in Wales, you know, initially we were at the stages in the Welsh
42:57Rugby Union where we brought in our disability rugby strategy, we had set pillars within that
43:03strategy, so that was sort of my parameters of what I could work with, so it gave me real
43:07clarity, right, this is what I'm focusing on at the moment, you know, and also I know what I'm not
43:13focusing on, so whilst I was having to focus on a national level at all these other pillars,
43:20you know, it's great that Cardiff Blues seized upon the opportunity and, you know, and sort of
43:24carried on with that and developed it, because, you know, as you alluded to, you know, the Welsh
43:29Rugby Union is now in a position where we're able to add a VI Rugby pillar to our strategy
43:35as we move forward now, you know, and, you know, Cardiff Blues have done such an amazing job
43:40that we've already got a team that are established that we could take, you know, potential players,
43:45potential coaches down to, you know, to get a taster, to have that, you know, have a look at,
43:51have a feel at, okay, okay, I get this, you know, going forward, you know, our aim will be to,
43:57you know, set up three teams initially, you know, so with Cardiff Blues covering the east of Wales,
44:02you know, somewhere down west Wales and then we're looking at north Wales as well
44:06and building from there, but, you know, how do you see VI Rugby in Wales developing?
44:14I think you've absolutely nailed it in where you're looking to start, you know, it's very
44:19easy to get excited about it, very easy to suddenly say, right, we're engaging all these
44:24professional clubs and everything, you know, but using that Blues model, which we know is proven,
44:30we know it works, we know we've got some expertise there and we can rely on the
44:34Change Foundation to be there, et cetera, and the RNIB in Wales as well, I think you've got
44:40a great opportunity to build something with these other two clubs, which, again, is another great
44:46case study to enhance the game across Wales and, you know, we're really developing the south
44:53of England as well, with Bristol, with Bath, again, and Gloucester as well, that they're only over the
44:59border, so if you want to play some games and you want to get some other training games in,
45:05there's opportunity to do some of that and, you know, for us, our focus again is now
45:12on the next showcase piece, which for us is South Africa, July 2021 Lions tour,
45:18and we've got an eye on making sure that that team has representation
45:25from those nations and at the moment we've got England and we've got Wales, you know, there will
45:30be people from Wales who will represent that Blind Lions team in South Africa in 2021, so for me,
45:38you know, it's a real positive movement, a real positive step forward for VI Rugby, that
45:45actually Wales are developing, you know, not only are they just gone brilliant, you know, it's worked
45:50in Cardiff, so it's going to work everywhere else, now actually let's take this process, and it is a
45:54process step by step, and find out what's right for the west, what's right for the north, and ensure
46:01that we can make it right for the participants and those taking part, but knowing at the same
46:07time that we can work together to put on some showcase pieces, whether it's in England or Wales
46:12England piece before a game, really maximise opportunity for players to play on big stages,
46:19to build new friendships, to get overseas opportunities, to represent their country,
46:24to represent their club, and ultimately enhance and educate community platforms, community clubs,
46:32to not only, you know, this isn't an add-on to your club, this is part of your club, you know,
46:39you've got the first team, second team, you've got the female section, you've got mixed ability
46:43section, you've got your VI section, you know, this isn't an add-on, this is everyone training
46:48on a Thursday night, playing on Saturday, being in the bar together, that's what we want to build,
46:53and I feel that Wales really are moving in the right direction, it's what Cardiff have done,
46:58and they've done it with ease in such a short amount of time, because you've got passionate,
47:02reliable, enthusiastic people, and you've got the VI community who want it, who are happy to
47:08support it, so once you've got those things, you're on to a winner, and I think starting off
47:14with these three clubs, using Blues as your case study, and everything you've learned from that,
47:20I'm really looking forward to where this leads to, and how much we can grow together,
47:27not just in England and Wales, but how we can work together to show off these clubs and case studies
47:33across Europe and across the country.
47:38Fantastic, I mean, I'm really excited about it, and I'm really glad that we as a union
47:43are in a position now that we've put so much time and effort into the other, you know, strands,
47:49or the other formats within the disability rugby strategy, that we can now, you know,
47:53quite a bit of focus into VI rugby, you know, and working with yourself, and in the future,
47:59working with the Cardiff Blues Foundation as well, on, you know, looking at how we educate
48:04coaches, how we educate referees to become inclusive, because as you mentioned earlier,
48:10you know, the referee has a very, very important role to play within the match, and almost like
48:14narrating the game for the players, you know, so there's a lot of education work that we will do
48:22to make sure that it's really, really strong and, you know, successful within Wales.
48:27So, last question then, what would be your advice to anyone watching this now
48:32that would like to get involved with VI rugby, either as a player or a coach?
48:38Just get in touch, and that is as simple as it is. I'm sure, Dan, you share my details,
48:43or get in touch with yourself. We, you know, we're very open. It's not going to be eight people
48:51till you get to me. Drop me an email, and I'll guide you in the best way possible. If you've
48:55got more questions about the game, if you've got questions about side categories, whatever it is,
49:01just get in touch, and we can guide you in the right direction. You know, we run a lot,
49:04we run a club in London. We work closely with the clubs across England, and we work directly
49:10with yourselves in Wales and RNIB, and there's a fantastic player at the Blues called Gareth Davies
49:16who works for the RNIB. He represented England because he was born in England, but I'm sure once
49:22he gets that red shirt, he'll be making a transition. But Gareth has been a brilliant
49:27pioneer, especially in Wales. So, you know, I'll probably put people in touch with him as well
49:34as a reference of, you know, if you've got any, if you're visually impaired yourself,
49:39and you've got any worries, speak to Gareth because Gareth will be able to answer those
49:44questions. But if people want to get in touch, whether you're a player, whether you're a coach,
49:49whether you're an official, whatever it may be, just drop me a line. I'd be happy to talk and
49:53guide you in the right direction. We're looking at developing an online training platform at the
50:00moment, which will be around six different modules, and each module will have videos,
50:05learning materials, coaching guidelines, with kind of a multiple choice at each end. So,
50:10for coaches, volunteers, you know, parents, whatever it may be, who want to learn more,
50:14we're in the process of developing that, so people can feel more confident. Obviously,
50:19with COVID, it's been very difficult to get out and train and keep the momentum, but hopefully
50:26this will be our next step for people to learn, to educate. And, you know, this, VR rugby is our
50:34gift to the rugby world, you know. We want to bring as many good people in as possible to share it,
50:41to innovate, to build it, and one day, you know, the Change Foundation, we've done our bit,
50:46you know, the game will be sustainable, we'll step away and we'll be able to watch, you know,
50:51the second VR Rugby World Cup from a spectator seat going, wow, look at this, isn't it brilliant?
50:57But we can only do that by the support of the likes of yourselves, and by people wanting to
51:03put their hand up and go, I want to be involved. So, please do get in touch.