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00:00Indeed, we mark International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.
00:04In France, it's hoped that the Pélico trial could be a catalyst for change.
00:08We're joined on set now by Alexandre Tkofsky, a lawyer and in-house counsel and board member
00:14for the Women for Women France, an NGO dedicated to gender-based violence,
00:18notably looking out for migrant women here in France.
00:22Firstly, Alexandre, I have to ask you for your reaction to this Pélico trial.
00:25We've seen that incredibly impressive Giselle Pélico waving her anonymity,
00:30calling for a change, calling for the shame to be shifted.
00:33Do you think this is a landmark case here in France and we will see change?
00:36I think that this case actually demonstrates one thing,
00:40is that we're still in a society that is dominated by male violence, misogyny,
00:46and that there's very little to no accountability, individual or collective.
00:51This case is a landmark case because not only of the number of defendants that we're seeing,
00:58it's also a case that is going to deconstruct the myths of what an abuser is.
01:04It's no longer the monster that's waiting for you in the parking lot.
01:07It's our brothers, our fathers, people that we love.
01:10It's people that come into our homes.
01:12And it's also a case that shows basically that
01:19the reactions of the defendants are astonishing as well.
01:2435 of them are not pleading guilty.
01:27Some of them are challenging the fact that their sexual acts are qualified of rape under French law.
01:34And there's also a reaction of the general public of men out there screaming, not all men.
01:40So it shows that we're still in a society that's very much dominated by this.
01:44And Giselle Perico, by waiving her right to anonymity,
01:48is actually letting us see this through a magnifying lens.
01:52And I think that the fact that she's allowing us to go into the courtroom with us
01:57is going to spark conversation.
02:01It has sparked conversation.
02:02And it's going to spark some change, hopefully, within society.
02:06It's definitely sparked conversations and debate.
02:09But let's look at this society reaction.
02:12And we saw protests across France again this weekend in support of Giselle Perico
02:18and calling for the match of society to change.
02:20But it was quite notably a one-sided protest, if I may.
02:25I believe you took part in them.
02:26Where were the men?
02:27Why are the men reacting the way they are here in France?
02:30Because they are still coming out defensive, even in the face of such a trial, are they not?
02:35Absolutely.
02:35So I was there on Saturday and there were 80,000 women and a few men.
02:44One notable difference is that there may have been a little more men
02:47than there were in September for the protests in support of Giselle Perico.
02:52But the conversation is still very much a conversation that's happening
02:57within these groups of women trying to make a change.
03:02And let me tell you, we're tired.
03:05But we're not only tired, we're angry and we're unstoppable.
03:10And I think that this energy and the sense of togetherness that we did feel
03:15on Saturday during these protests, that is what is going to hopefully
03:20allow us to be persistent in that fight and to get to that paradigm shift that we need to get to.
03:28But we do need to involve more men and we do need men to understand
03:34that this male violence is rooted in a system
03:38and that anyone who doesn't help deconstruct that system is part of the problem.
03:44So we need them.
03:45We need them around the table for this conversation.
03:49Now you work on the front line, if you like, of seeing this gender-based violence in France.
03:53Do you think France is a more macho society than other countries?
03:56Is the problem here worse than elsewhere?
03:58What I think is that the numbers are staggering in France.
04:01We have 271,000 registered cases of domestic abuse.
04:07There are 1,012 feminicides since Macron's first mandate.
04:14Every two minutes and 30 seconds, there's an attempted rape or a rape in France.
04:20That's enormous.
04:21And these numbers are only increasing annually.
04:25So I think that based on these statistics, we are ranking pretty low
04:31in comparison to our European counterparts.
04:36And do you think, I mean, the fact that they're at least being reported,
04:39does that, is that a sign that there's support for victims in France?
04:44That they're at least being supported?
04:46Like, are cases taken seriously?
04:47If somebody has that strength to report a sexual crime against them, an attack,
04:53how are they received, if you like, by authorities in France?
04:57I think that that's part of the, that's a huge part of the problem,
05:01is the way that they are received by police officers that are the first to register the claim,
05:08and the way that they're also treated by our judicial system as a whole.
05:13The Giselle Pellicot case has not only showed
05:16what the male violence and the male dominance within society,
05:22it's also shown the way that these victims are treated in our judicial system
05:27with defence attorneys that are using victim-blaming tactics.
05:33Not only them, also the tribunal who was asking some questions
05:37that are very close to victim-blaming tactics.
05:42And we've also heard very disturbing arguments coming from the defence that
05:48her husband's consent may have induced her own consent.
05:52So actually, all these arguments of rape culture are used by the judicial system.
06:00And it doesn't, it's not just in the courtroom.
06:02It starts also at the police station.
06:05So there is a big lack of support from the system as a whole for victims to come forth.
06:12Yeah, it makes it so increasingly hard because this Pellicot case,
06:15I mean, they've literally got video evidence,
06:17you know, you kind of think with that amount of evidence,
06:19it's quite astounding to me to see how much she was questioned
06:24and her consent called into question.
06:27Overall, I mean, are people successful when they bring their attackers to court here in France?
06:32No.
06:33Overall, they're not.
06:356% of rape cases are brought, are filed as a complaint.
06:436%.
06:44Are recorded as official.
06:45Are recorded as official complaints.
06:4874% are not prosecuted.
06:511% result in a conviction.
06:55So the short answer is no.
06:58And how is that justified?
06:59On a lack of evidence?
07:00Or how would, how do they?
07:02I think it's justified on a lack of training, for instance,
07:06for first off, a lack of training of the police
07:12and of prosecutors that are prosecuting these cases.
07:16And I think that we need to really ensure that we're providing specified training
07:25to the people that are supposed to support
07:28and who are the frontliners for these victims of gender-based violence.
07:33We need to put the budget into training,
07:37not only about sexual violences,
07:41but we also need to think about unconscious bias training.
07:44Because every victim is, has a very,
07:48it's a very hard journey to get to file a complaint
07:52and to actually get to court.
07:54But we need to understand that some victims are facing intersections
08:00and they are even, they're in a worse position than other victims
08:05to be able to express themselves in a language that they understand
08:11and that they speak.
08:13And to be felt as legitimate.
08:19A lot of the time, foreign-born women are not believed.
08:24We've had a crazy case, a recent case,
08:29where a foreign-born woman who was undocumented filed a complaint
08:35and the judge considered that she filed this complaint
08:39in order to get her papers.
08:43A few days later, this woman was found killed.
08:46So we're in a situation where we need to ensure
08:52that we're taking into consideration every single victim
08:57and that we're providing the right training to these frontliners.
09:01Because even you would imagine an undocumented person,
09:05it's particularly brave to bring forward a claim
09:08because you're already in that vulnerable position
09:10of could it be taken against you
09:12and you're seen as what are you doing in our country in the first place?
09:15Absolutely.
09:15These victims don't go to the police because they're scared
09:19that instead of finding a place of safety
09:22and instead of finding help,
09:24that they'll actually receive a request to leave the territory.
09:29And finally, are the police or those on the front line,
09:31are they open to that change in tone, to education on that level?
09:37I hope so.
09:39I hope so.
09:40I think that the initiative needs to come from maybe our politicians.
09:49We do need them to take that decision
09:54to have these specific trainings.
09:59Yeah.
10:00Yeah.
10:00And hopefully, as you say, this Pellico trial, if nothing else,
10:03it has brought it all very much into the spotlight
10:07and we can start to address it.
10:08Alexandra Lakhovsky, thanks so much for coming in
10:11on this International Day of the Elimination of Violence Against Women.