Former EU Commission José Manuel Barroso said Putin told him he didn't want Ukraine to exist as an independent state. He said he told him his goals during the twenty five meetings he had with him during his tenure.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Jose Manuel Barroso was President of the European Commission from 2004 to 2014.
00:13For the Europe Conversation, he tells me why he believes Crimea will never be returned
00:18to Ukraine, but that the West must support Kiev for as long as it takes.
00:22He's also head of the International Vaccine Alliance, where he describes as criminal those
00:27spreading disinformation and lies about vaccines.
00:33So President Barroso, it's 10 years since you left as President of the European Commission
00:37and a lot has happened.
00:38I mean, even when you started, it was the beginning of enlargement where we went from
00:4215 countries to 25, then to 28 and now 27.
00:46Yes.
00:47So it's in fact 20 years before, after my first commission.
00:52It was this month precisely, 20 years ago, and a lot is happening.
00:56But I think it's important also to keep in mind that there is continuity, that the European
01:03Institution, par excellence, is the European Commission.
01:08And as one of the founding fathers of the European Union said, the European Community,
01:13Jean Monnet, he said, nothing happens without men.
01:17Now we should say, nothing happens without people.
01:19So nothing happens without men, nothing lasts without institutions, and the European Commission
01:24is a great institution.
01:26Well, look, let's go back to 2014, or even further, I think we'd all like to go back
01:30to those days, and look at what could have been done differently, or maybe not done at
01:34all.
01:35But let's say where we are with Ukraine and Putin.
01:38In 2008 we had the invasion of Georgia, 2014 was obviously Crimea, we also had the assassination
01:44of Litvinenko in the UK and so on.
01:46And the Baltics were constantly saying to the EU, we need to be much stronger when it
01:52comes to Putin, and stop being so naive when it comes to Russia, having interdependence
01:57when it comes to oil and gas.
01:58I mean, what's your assessment of that time now, when you look back, at the warnings you
02:03were given, what was going on?
02:06I think I always like to put Ecclesiastes, the Old Testament of the Bible.
02:12There is a time for everything.
02:15I think it was, there was some time where we tried with the best of our efforts to have
02:20a constructive relationship with Russia, and we've tried, but Russia has been changing
02:26progressively.
02:27Now, OK, some were more keen to understand Russia, congratulations.
02:34By the way, also to be honest, some of them, they did not prepare for what happened afterwards,
02:40and they were not always right on some of their positions.
02:44Having said that, I think now it's obvious.
02:48We had the invasion, the full invasion of Ukraine.
02:52What I hope is now that countries from the north, from the south, from the center, from
02:58the periphery, from the east, from the west, understand that what is at stake is in fact
03:03for all Europe, and in fact not only for all Europe, for the world.
03:06What we have now is a global conflict, it's not a European conflict, I mean, North Korean
03:11military are in Europe now, in one country, invading or fighting against a European country
03:17as well.
03:18This is very serious.
03:20So we need to act together.
03:22But what do you think of the period, I suppose, I mean, do you think that the warnings weren't
03:28taken seriously?
03:29Was there a belief that in 2014 maybe we shouldn't escalate by applying such extreme sanctions
03:36against Russia for Crimea?
03:37You know, like, what was the thinking?
03:39I can tell you what was the thinking, because I was in that meeting.
03:42What happened was that facing the invasion of Crimea, there were three possibilities.
03:49One is to go direct war against Russia.
03:52Nobody wants a war against Russia, still today.
03:56Another thing was to make a kind of a diplomatic communique, a regretting, almost zero.
04:04And there was a middle way, a middle way was sanctions.
04:06And that's what we approved.
04:09And with the strong support from Germany, France, UK, Merkel, Hollande, Cameron.
04:16But already then, with some voices against sanctions, the first one was in fact Viktor
04:20Orban.
04:21Orban said, if, I don't agree with sanctions, because there will be counter-sanctions, it
04:27will be negative for us, but if there is a consensus, I will not oppose it.
04:31But others, including the Netherlands, which is quite insidious.
04:36And also Malta, Cyprus, Greece and Slovakia, were, let's say, with some level of ambiguity.
04:45And the Baltics were for them, I assume.
04:46The Baltics were for them.
04:48But France and Germany were very strongly for them.
04:51And UK.
04:52The problem was which kind of sanctions, because then they could not agree, and they asked
04:57the Commission to design the sanctions.
05:00And then, of course, each country said sanctions, but one country, you can imagine which country
05:05said, not financial sanctions, not financial services.
05:08As I said, not diamonds, not ships, not agriculture, not farming.
05:14Because we had the discussion, yeah.
05:17That's why at the end of the day, the sanction package was relatively minimalist compared
05:22to what happened afterwards.
05:23So what should have been, if you went back to that time now, what should have been done?
05:27Look, we have to see what was possible at that time.
05:30The reality is that the governments were not ready to go further.
05:34That is the reality.
05:35The Commission will be ready to go further.
05:37But the governments were not ready to go further because of their own interests and probably
05:42because they thought, and that's interesting, that what I'm going to say now, it's delicate,
05:47but I'm going to say it.
05:49Because at least in the back of our minds, or the minds of the European governments,
05:53was that Crimea is a special case.
05:58That's why today, honestly, nobody believes that Ukraine is going to get back Crimea.
06:05That's the reality.
06:06OK, we are trying to support Ukraine, but also at the same time trying to see what could
06:11be a possible solution.
06:14So this is the problem.
06:15It was an extremely difficult situation.
06:18But I don't think at that moment it was possible to conceive a much stronger position, because
06:25in fact the governments were not ready for it.
06:29Everything gets its time.
06:31So let's not use that as a pretext not to do now what we should do.
06:35What should we do now?
06:36I mean, to support Ukraine.
06:37I have no doubts about it.
06:39We should support Ukraine.
06:42And whatever happens with our American friends, we should support Ukraine.
06:46Because if not, it's not only going to be a tragedy for Ukraine, it's a very important
06:51country, but it's a tragedy for Europe.
06:54And it's going to be the best possible offer we give to the movement against democracy,
07:02against international law, against also our own values.
07:06If Russia, and others that are now supporting Russia, continue to say all over the world,
07:11including in the so-called global South, that Europe and the West, they are gone, they are
07:15decadent, they no longer count, democracy is a completely corrupt ideology, we have
07:22to do it another way.
07:23I mean, what is at stake in Ukraine is a fundamental issue for all the world, the so-called
07:28global South is looking.
07:30Just before I let you go, enlargement, do you think Ukraine will be a member of the
07:33European Union by 2030, as Charles Michel has said?
07:36I never commit to dates, in fact, why?
07:39Because they are, they can be frustrating if you don't achieve them.
07:43But I hope and I expect Ukraine one day to be a member of the European Union.
07:48But it's important for Ukraine's future security, so it would have to happen sooner rather than
07:52later, right?
07:53Yes, ideally, yes.
07:54Do you think the EU is prepared?
07:55There is a variable here we do not control.
07:58When the war is over, we don't know.
08:00And secondly, afterwards, both the European Union and Ukraine itself should be ready for
08:05becoming a member, which has some criteria that should be respected.
08:09That's why I think it's not prudent.
08:11I understand that the idea of setting a date is an inspirational date, let's put it like
08:15that.
08:16But we cannot commit to a date.
08:17Yes, but we should, meanwhile, do everything to help Ukraine to become a member.
08:23I don't believe that Putin will, I know Putin, Putin is the leader outside the European Union
08:30that I met the most during my 10 years in office.
08:33I met him 25 times.
08:35I know what he feels.
08:37And now, when they have hundreds of thousands of young Russians being killed already now,
08:45there are 1,200 casualties per day, Russian casualties, Putin does not want to come to
08:53the Russian people and say, OK, we have gained some more territory, a little bit of Donbass,
08:58a little bit of Crimea.
09:00The goal of Putin was to avoid Ukraine to be a country.
09:07I know because I spoke with him about this.
09:09What did he say?
09:10I mean, he said one day, he said to me, why are you defending Ukraine?
09:13You know very well that Ukraine is an artificial country created by the CIA and by the European
09:18Commission.
09:19I told him, look, if it was the European Commission who created Ukraine, I should be informed.
09:22So it's completely, yeah.
09:24So in fact, he does not want Ukraine to exist, or if it exists, to be a kind of Belarus without
09:31any independence in foreign policy or in defense terms.
09:34It can be a vassal state.
09:36This is his goal.
09:38So that's why if we are able to make Ukraine a member of the European Union, it shows that
09:45his goal was not fulfilled.
09:47And what is at stake is exactly that.
09:50Are we going to support Ukraine in a way that Ukraine can be a country, or are we going
09:56to say, OK, Mr. Putin, you are stronger, we are weak, you can take Ukraine, it's not so
10:02important for us?
10:03That's the question.
10:04OK.
10:05So you're head of the Global Vaccine Alliance.
10:09Are you worried about the backlash, global backlash against vaccines?
10:13We've heard, you know, during the COVID period and so on, that people were saying they weren't
10:17going to take the vaccine and then that might impact parents giving their vaccine to children.
10:22Yeah, I am.
10:23There is a counter-information very active in the net made by very, well, I think they
10:28are criminal forces, frankly.
10:30I think it's a criminal thing.
10:33We know very well, and it has been demonstrated over decades and decades, that countries in
10:38Africa that vaccinated their children, the life expectancy and the child goes up and
10:44the child mortality goes down.
10:46Others, the neighbors, they don't do it because they don't have the means.
10:51Kids die.
10:52There is nothing more important in the world than saving the life of our children.
10:57I believe nothing more important.
10:59And so we know by experience, by empirical evidence, that in fact, vaccines save lives.
11:05It does not mean that one or other vaccine cannot have secondary effects.
11:09All medicines have secondary effects, all medicines.
11:13But overall, vaccines save life against measles, against polio, I mean, against yellow fever
11:20or COVID was a new vaccine, but also against COVID.
11:25So yes, there is now a campaign in some sectors for reasons that are hard to understand.
11:30Some of these people are completely paranoid.
11:34They give up to these conspiracy theories.
11:35It's very strange.
11:37And what they are doing, from my point of view, is somehow criminal, because they are
11:43in fact, if they have success, they will provoke the deaths of millions of people.
11:49Okay.
11:50Jose Manuel Barroso, former president of the European Commission, thank you very much for
11:53joining us on the Europe Conversation.