مدي 1 تي في : السفير الفرنسي السابق في الجزائر كزافيي دريانكور ضيف خاص على ميدي1 تيفي - 15/11/2024
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00:00Welcome to this special interview.
00:11It is a book with major themes that target all those interested in the subject of Algeria,
00:16its history and its present, and the relationship of this country with the future and the region
00:21in general, but also with its people and the complications of its political system.
00:25It is a book that reveals memories and a complicated relationship with memory and history
00:30and with France, the former colonial power.
00:34The Algerian myth, the memoirs of an embassy in the capital of Algeria dates back to the
00:38eighties, which was carried out by Xavier de Riancourt in Algeria as an ambassador to France
00:44in this country from 2008 to 2012, then from 2017 to 2020.
00:50Two different periods and two major ones, during which the man became a reference in
00:55the knowledge of this country, where he wrote a book in the face of the Algerian mystery,
00:59a book that explains to the reader the contradictions that the Algerian political system imposes.
01:04The book is also a very valuable raw material, not only to understand the reason for France's
01:09survival in the heart of the Algerian political game today and the opposite is true, but also
01:14to try to break down the signs and features of the relations that have become difficult
01:19between Morocco and Algeria, under the guise of the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron
01:23to Morocco and the support of Paris, which is clear and frank, for the unity of Morocco
01:27and the Moroccan Sahara.
01:30I am pleased to welcome today the author of the book, the Algerian mystery,
01:35Mr. Xavier de Riancourt.
01:37Good evening, sir.
01:39I have the pleasure of welcoming the author in person of the Algerian enigma,
01:43Mr. Xavier de Riancourt.
01:45Good evening.
01:48The Algerian enigma is the memory of my embassy in the capital of Algeria
01:52and the fruit of your diplomatic experience.
01:55Not only that, but it is also a reflection of your memories and feelings
02:00according to a special perspective and a personal view of your relationship with this country,
02:05which you also have love for.
02:08Of you and your relationship with this country that you also love.
02:13Yes, allow me first to thank you for this invitation
02:19and for the introduction that you have preferred.
02:23The book, the Algerian enigma, the memory of my embassy in the capital of Algeria
02:29is not a book of my diplomatic experience at all.
02:32It is not a book of memory either.
02:35On the contrary, the book is the image of present-day Algeria
02:39because there are many books written about the colonization,
02:43the Algerian war, and the war of independence.
02:47But I realized that there were not many books about Algeria
02:51as they are in the present time,
02:53and the complexities of Algeria,
02:55and the complexity of the relationship with France.
02:59And for this reason, I wrote this book.
03:04We will actually talk about these complexities
03:08and this complicated relationship with the Algerian authorities
03:12and the regime as you described it.
03:15Your book consists of 14 chapters on the issues of the Algerian society.
03:19It is an analysis of the Algerian-French relationship,
03:23but also, first of all, of the political system in this country.
03:27The regime is the term you chose to describe the mechanisms of decision-making
03:33and the work of the Algerian authorities.
03:37Did you not tell us about this term?
03:41This is the term used in Algeria.
03:45I used the term regime or decision-makers,
03:49as they say in the capital of Algeria,
03:53and it is a somewhat specific matter
03:57as to the complexity of the regime in Algeria.
04:02I used it because it is a very common term in Algeria.
04:13In your book, you talk about principles that have not changed since 1962.
04:19You also talk about the impunity and important role of the army in Algeria,
04:24as well as the opposing speech to France,
04:27the speech that denies legitimacy to the regime.
04:31What remains in your view of this political extremism
04:34that is alive and well in Algeria today?
04:42What amazes me as a Frenchman, as a citizen, and as an observer,
04:46is to see that after 62 years of Algeria's independence
04:50and after 62 years of the Evian agreement,
04:54Algeria failed to turn the page of its past with France.
05:01We saw that again a few days ago,
05:04in the first of November,
05:07which marked the 70th anniversary of France's war of independence
05:11in 1954.
05:17We still see this opposing speech to France,
05:20and I find it shameful that after 70 years on this path
05:24and 62 years of independence,
05:27we are still in this conflict,
05:30in which our relations are divided.
05:33Usually, there comes a time when you look to the future,
05:36where the past remains the past.
05:39We must move forward and overcome these things.
05:47We will talk about the nature of this relationship through the past,
05:50but before that, Mr. Xavier Driancourt told us about this.
05:54When you were in the capital of Algeria,
05:57how did you manage this situation,
06:00this complication and these harsh criticisms towards the French state,
06:03which you also talked about in your book,
06:06especially in relation to the Algerian elite,
06:09and the services related to visas,
06:12diplomatic travel passports,
06:15as well as the health institutions, for example.
06:18Then the senior Algerian officials in France.
06:21How does an ambassador from France manage this on the spot?
06:33It was a result of our experience and patience,
06:36then we continued to move forward.
06:39I remember when I arrived in Algeria for the first time in 2008,
06:42the Secretary General of the Algerian National Liberation Front
06:45and the former president of the government
06:49Mr. Abdelaziz Belkhadem told me during the interview
06:52that I had with him about a strange matter.
06:55He told me,
06:58Mr. Ambassador,
07:01you must know that in Algeria
07:04there is a trap behind every tree.
07:07Then I said to myself,
07:10it will be difficult here,
07:13so we had to manage all these contradictions.
07:19It was not easy at all.
07:23We imagine that.
07:26Is it true that the issue of memory is at the core of this relationship?
07:29Yes, the issue of memory is at the core of this relationship.
07:32The issue of visas and the issue of memory
07:35are in fact the two most sensitive issues
07:38in the French-Algerian relationship.
07:41As for the French side, for example,
07:44there are a large number of things
07:48that have been evaluated for ten years,
07:51whether by Nicolas Sarkozy,
07:54or by François Hollande,
07:57or by the current president, Emmanuel Macron,
08:00where he was recognized a week ago
08:03for the assassination of the Arab Ben Mahdi.
08:06There were many initiatives
08:09that were carried out by the French side
08:12and the issue of memory
08:15until a certain moment,
08:18until a certain date,
08:21it was just a question of memory.
08:24I think that until a certain date
08:27it was still a matter of memory
08:30and the recognition of the facts related to colonization.
08:33And since the meeting on the issue
08:36of the evaluation of memory,
08:39we have moved to the Algerian side
08:43and we have remained somehow attached
08:46to the issue of memory,
08:49despite all the constant efforts
08:52made by the French president.
08:55All the actions that have been made,
08:58especially by the President of the Republic,
09:01have not led to much.
09:04Especially when he went to the capital of Algeria
09:07in 2022 and talked about the subject,
09:10he went far after talking
09:13about the issue of the evaluation of memory.
09:18In France in 2021,
09:21he spoke to some of your colleagues
09:24in Le Monde newspaper.
09:27He talked about the fabrication of history
09:30by the Algerian military political system.
09:33He went very far in his criticism of this fabrication.
09:37Is this a new direction
09:40for the ruling class in France
09:43in relation to the relationship with Algeria?
09:46When President Macron takes this choice
09:49and addresses these words
09:52and chooses this term
09:55about the issue of memory,
09:58is there anything that can direct
10:01the relationship with Algeria forward?
10:05It is often said that the French authorities
10:08do not dare to do in Algeria
10:11what they dare to do in other countries.
10:14Here, President Macron has gone
10:17as far as possible.
10:20Isn't that so?
10:25President Macron has gone
10:28as far as possible since 2017.
10:31He has achieved in a way
10:34that the Algerian people
10:37have started to bet on Algeria
10:40when he said that colonization
10:43is a crime against humanity.
10:46Then there was a whole series
10:49of initiatives that concerned
10:52the issue of memory,
10:55such as the recognition
10:58of the case of Maurice Audin
11:02Recently, a committee of historians
11:05was formed under the presidency of Benjamin Stora,
11:08but there was no response
11:11from the Algerian side.
11:14This in itself is a problem
11:17and it is also the matter
11:20that explains a lot about the relationship
11:23with Morocco now,
11:26because the bet on Algeria,
11:29the bet on Algeria
11:32did not work out
11:35as it seems in the current time.
11:38This bet has turned
11:41into a kind of trap.
11:46What does the Algerian system
11:49keep in your opinion?
11:52What does the Algerian system
11:55keep in your opinion
11:59in the face of this disgrace
12:02and this desire to not give up
12:05no matter what the situation is?
12:08Even if that leads to opposite results
12:11for the Algerian people
12:14who remain at the end of the rope
12:17trapped in these situations
12:20and these political directions?
12:23Yes, I think that the opportunity
12:27was appropriate for Jacques Chirac
12:30who was 7 and 5 years old
12:33because Jacques Chirac
12:36was the president of the Republic
12:39for 12 years.
12:42First, he had a very strong relationship
12:45with Morocco, with King Hassan II
12:48and with King Mohamed VI.
12:51He also had a very strong
12:54relationship with Algeria
12:57in 2002, 2003 and 2005
13:00after Algeria did not seize
13:03the opportunity for this historical reconciliation.
13:06Jacques Chirac also had
13:09very strong words about colonization
13:12and after that Algeria did not seize
13:15this opportunity
13:18then things deteriorated gradually.
13:22The Algerians have not held
13:25the hand that Emmanuel Macron
13:28extended towards them since 2017.
13:37Let's continue the talk about France
13:40but this time from the point of view
13:43of Morocco, where France recognizes
13:46the Moroccan self-government
13:49as a political, just and permanent solution.
13:52What is the impact of this
13:55on the relationship between France and Algeria
13:58but also on the relationship
14:01between Morocco and Algeria?
14:04We have seen the reaction
14:07of the Algerian authorities
14:10since July 31, 2024
14:13after the French President sent
14:17the Algerian ambassador to Paris
14:20recently as an ambassador
14:23to Portugal.
14:26This indicates that there will be
14:29no Algerian ambassador in Paris
14:32in the near future
14:35and that we have entered
14:38a long phase of cleansing.
14:41Then there were other measures
14:45that the Algerian authorities
14:48have taken, such as sending
14:51the French embassies to France
14:54from Algeria.
14:57There are many decisions
15:00that Algeria has made
15:03that reflect its bad mood
15:06and lack of understanding
15:09of this change that is taking place
15:12in the region.
15:15Algeria has always been a land
15:18of Morocco throughout history,
15:21as is clear from the archives
15:24and the facts, but also
15:27from the international law.
15:30Nevertheless, the Algerian regime
15:33continues to speak in a mixed way.
15:36Did you not tell us about this?
15:40I think that the contradiction
15:43on the side of Algeria
15:46is not only what you said
15:49to the right.
15:52Algeria has always claimed
15:55that it is not interested
15:58in the deserts
16:01and that it is not a matter of concern.
16:04But at the same time,
16:07it is a matter of the end of colonization
16:10and the right of the peoples
16:13to decide their fate.
16:16But if Algeria is not interested,
16:19why are you interfering in this file?
16:22Why did they make these decisions
16:25towards France after Paris
16:28acknowledged the cancellation
16:31of the Moroccan desert file
16:35in Algeria?
16:38How can we understand
16:41this other paradox
16:44on the side of Algeria?
16:47How can we understand
16:50this other paradox
16:53on the side of Algeria?
16:56Yes, it is indeed a paradox,
16:59but the old paradox
17:03is the one that goes back
17:06to the long period between 1962
17:09and 1963.
17:12Then, during the years 1954-1962,
17:15Morocco hosted Bouteflika and Boumediene
17:18who were part of the Algerian National Desert Army.
17:21Then, in 1962,
17:24the first skirmishes or wars
17:27took place with Morocco.
17:30This very strong paradox
17:33was born in 1962.
17:40Today, in light of everything we have said so far,
17:43Mr. Xavier Driancourt,
17:46how do you see the development of this country?
17:49Because you have seen the movement
17:52after three years of this popular uprising
17:55and then in light of this big change
17:59what are the challenges you face today
18:02at national and international levels?
18:05You asked me about my feelings.
18:08I will not hide that I am very disappointed.
18:11I do not see any developments
18:14in the short or medium term
18:17on the Algerian side
18:20in the Algerian-French relationship
18:23or in the Moroccan-Algerian relationship.
18:26However, in light of the international context
18:29and what is happening in Ukraine
18:32and the general development in Africa
18:35and the relations between Europe and Morocco,
18:38no, I am not optimistic at all.
18:51Let's end this interview with this question.
18:55President Macron, when he came to Morocco,
18:58said that Morocco is the land of literature.
19:01Algeria is also the land of literature,
19:04as evidenced by the French Gancourt Award
19:07in its latest edition,
19:10which was awarded to the author Kamel Daud
19:13for his novel Hurriyet.
19:16What do you think of this award
19:19that the Gancourt Academy has awarded
19:23Indeed, it is a very prestigious award.
19:26Kamel Daud, whom I know well in Algeria,
19:29wrote this book about the black community,
19:32but it is also a re-presentation
19:35of the subject of memory and history
19:38and a re-presentation of the subject of civil war
19:41in the Algerian black community.
19:44It is also in literature,
19:47and we see the success of his book Hurriyet
19:50all over the world.
19:53The Algerian reaction
19:56to the social media network
19:59was very violent and critical
20:02towards Kamel Daud and France
20:05and the Gancourt Award Committee
20:08and the Gallimard publisher
20:11who were prevented from attending
20:14the book fair in the capital of Algeria.
20:18I did not ask you the question yet,
20:21what is the future of your book in Algeria?
20:24It has been widely read in Algeria
20:27as well as published there.
20:30But it was published in Algeria.
20:33It is still surprising.
20:36It was published in Algeria
20:39Another contradiction
20:42Yes, another contradiction
20:45It has been widely read
20:48and there was no reaction
20:51to the subject at all.
20:54This means that I have never been
20:57criticized, why?
21:00Because you said before
21:03that I spent almost eight years in Algeria
21:06and this is not like going to Algeria
21:09for eight days and writing an article
21:13about Algeria.
21:16I spent almost eight years
21:19and therefore I cannot be criticized
21:22as I used to be.
21:25Thank you very much, Mr. Xavier Driancourt
21:28for being with us.
21:31It is a great honor.
21:34I remember that you are the author
21:37of the book Al-Oghz Al-Jazairi
21:40Thank you for watching