In this special broadcast, Dr. Sudhir Krishna Former Secy, Urban Dev. Ministry elaborates and explains why Dharavi’s redevelopment is a revolution. He also elaborates on how the Mahayuti government is solely responsible for this transformative change. The role of Devendra Fadnavis and Eknath Shinde can’t be ignored.
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#Dharavi #SmartCity #Mumbai #DevendraFadnavis #EknathShinde #BJP #Mahayuti #Politics #maharashtraelections
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00:00How a standard size of 300 or 350 square feet of apartment will be provided to all the residents
00:07who are eligible and ineligible will also be settled in other places.
00:11EWS housing is developed, allotted and allotted, sell off the house and continue to remain
00:17in the slum.
00:18You know, is it not?
00:19It is a trend everywhere.
00:20All over the country, I am saying.
00:21I mean, the slum population has only increased despite the slum development and slum redevelopment
00:26improvement program being there for decades now.
00:30Hello and welcome to today's interview where we will be talking about Dharavi's transformation
00:35and how the landmark redevelopment took off with Mahayati's resolve and Adani's winning
00:40bid.
00:41Now, I'd like to begin by welcoming our guest for today, Dr. Sudhir Krishna, former Secretary
00:46Urban Development, Government of India and Chairman Committee of Standard Smart Cities.
00:51Welcome so much, sir.
00:52Thank you so much for joining us.
00:54Okay, so now we'll straight up jump into the questions.
00:59So how will the redevelopment of Dharavi impact the lives of local residents and what broader
01:04changes can it bring to the overall landscape of, you know, even Bombay and even making
01:09the city more modern and inclusive?
01:11I think it is a wonderful moment, not only for Dharavi and Maharashtra, but even for
01:17the whole country.
01:18I think one of the biggest challenges for urban development is the slums, informal settlements,
01:26which we could not handle all these years.
01:30I mean, the slum population has only increased despite the slum development and slum redevelopment,
01:36you know, improvement program being there for decades now.
01:39For decades, well over 50 years we have been having, and it was a frustration actually
01:45in the urban development sector to find the slums not going away, but only proliferating.
01:51And look at the number of houses for weaker sections that have been built over the years.
01:55In the last 10 years, 1 crore houses have been built under the EWS and MIG category
02:01under Pradhan Mantri Awas Yojana.
02:03In addition to that, many other, you know, EWS, state government's programs and so on
02:08will definitely be there.
02:09So despite all that, still slums have been there wherever they were.
02:13And this is only last 10 years I am saying.
02:15Even before that, if you see another 50 years, equal number, if not, maybe 40-50 lakh houses
02:20must have been built.
02:21There is no account, unfortunately, of how many houses have been built in the country
02:26over time.
02:27And it has been a very frustrating situation.
02:30So if the slums have to be redeveloped, you see, some part has to be cleared up.
02:35Where it is a low-lying area, it has to be cleared up.
02:38If it is a fall area where the water stagnates, low-lying areas have to be cleared and they
02:42have to be redeveloped in proper places.
02:45So this project is so very well designed.
02:48And it is, I mean, if it had not succeeded, there would not have been much surprise for
02:53me because hundreds of such projects have come in the country and not succeeded.
02:57So this is a project which is, which seems to be taking off well.
03:01It is well designed.
03:02Well, it takes care of all the issues, you know, that while it is only on the drawing
03:07board yet, I mean, just taken off.
03:09So I hope whatever is in the drawing board is actually, it gets implemented and it provides
03:14for social infrastructure like housing, I mean, the education, health, parks and playgrounds
03:22and so on and so forth.
03:23So we will come to that.
03:24And you are very rightly saying that, you know, finally, we are really hoping now that
03:30it will take off.
03:31It looks like it absolutely.
03:33Let's talk about why has such long delays been there?
03:36And given, of course, that the fact that these long delays have been there in this
03:40specific Dharavi redevelopment, what were some of the key challenges if we can talk
03:45about that hindered progress in the past?
03:47And how does a current approach represent a shift in priorities and vision for such
03:52a large scale transformation?
03:54I would say that, I mean, since I cannot, I would not like to confine only Dharavi because
03:59it is a malaise, it is a disease for public-private partnership projects, which has been impacting
04:04all similar projects.
04:05You see, urban development, urban infrastructure development.
04:06I think Dharavi will also speak about, because, you know, it simply is humongous and it's
04:07right in the centre of Bombay.
04:08That's right.
04:09That's true.
04:10You see, the Dharavi project is an example of public-private partnership project, right,
04:11where the government representing the people and the private entrepreneur, they join together
04:12in a partnership mode.
04:13Right.
04:14Now what happens in the PPP projects, we have had PPP projects in whatever sector in urban,
04:40you see, water supply, sanitation, solid waste management, and nothing worked.
04:45Nothing worked.
04:46Almost everywhere.
04:47Very few sparkling exceptions here and there, small one, not worth, you know, that could
04:51not be replicated.
04:52So, therefore, such a large project in PPP mode in urban sector, which is a core of urban
04:58sector.
04:59Slum redevelopment is core of urban sector, along with solid waste management and water
05:03supply and urban roads and street lighting, these are the core issues in urban development,
05:09you know.
05:10So, these all lead to clean air, these all lead to good health of people, good quality
05:14of living.
05:15So, it's a very fundamental project.
05:18It's a flagship project.
05:19I view it as a flagship project, not only for Dharavi or Mumbai or Maharashtra, for
05:24the whole country.
05:25I hope that…
05:26It's going to set an example also.
05:27Yes.
05:28In fact, you see, there, as I said that, you see, what is in a slum is hodgepodge kind
05:34of living, humbug living, you know.
05:36Yeah.
05:37So, standard size of 300 or 350 square feet of apartment will be provided to all the residents
05:43who are eligible and ineligible will also be settled in other places of the MMR, not
05:49exactly there.
05:50I mean, those who have come after 2000 and between 2000-2011, they will be given, you
05:55know, accommodation of 300 square feet elsewhere in MMR, at subsidized rate of two and a half
06:01lakh.
06:03Very, very highly subsidized, two and a half lakh is nothing, even for, you know, average
06:08country, per capita income, if you see, income of family will be more than that for one year
06:14and therefore, it can easily be paid off.
06:17And so, and those who are beyond 2011, who are totally ineligible, they will be offered
06:21rental housing scheme.
06:22It's also a very good idea.
06:23In fact, slum redevelopment should be focused on rental housing because often we have seen
06:31that EWS housing is developed, allotted and sell off the house and continue to remain
06:36in the slum.
06:37You know, is it not?
06:38It is a trend everywhere.
06:39All over the country, I am saying.
06:40Dharavi is no exception.
06:41That's the trend.
06:42So, rental housing means if you do not want to live there, you don't have to sell anything.
06:46Just go away.
06:47Somebody else who needs will live.
06:48So, rental housing is a wonderful thing that has been, and there are government of India
06:52and the PMAY, there is a component of rental housing, but it has not been taken up.
06:57And rental housing, we have been experimenting for a long time.
07:01It has not been working at all.
07:02Now, it has been, hopefully, under this project, where people who are not eligible will be
07:06allowed rental housing, which means if they are sincere, if they are really keen to live
07:11in the area, then there is no bar, you know, they can enjoy living there.
07:15Only thing is ownership.
07:16What is ownership issue?
07:17If you are getting a place to live at a reasonable rent, fair enough, live there, in course of
07:21time, you can probably buy also, I guess, in course of time, they can buy.
07:25So that is the second.
07:27One is, as I said, that social housing, social sector facilities like education, health and
07:33playgrounds and parks and things like that.
07:36And second is the housing, which is, of course, you can put one first and second.
07:40And thirdly, commercial spaces also, because Dharavi is well known, not as a slum, it is
07:45also an economic hub in its own right.
07:47Dharavi has a lot of economic activities.
07:49So economic space will also be given, you know, I think 250 square feet or something
07:53like that, minimum something given to people who are already having, eligible people having
07:58commercial spaces.
07:59And also they can buy more space also if they want bigger space.
08:03I think what more would be required.
08:05So on drawing board, this is a perfect project.
08:07It is a perfect project and it must take off, I mean, for the country's benefit.
08:12And this is a wonderful thing, you know, and you also ask why it did not happen before,
08:17right?
08:18Why did it?
08:19In the public-private partnership, government support is a must, in urban sector particularly.
08:24See, public-private partnership projects are happening in other infrastructure sectors
08:30also, like roadways, in national highways, EPP is a very, very common mode.
08:35But there also government support is required, but not so much, because intensity of activity
08:41is not so much.
08:42In urban area, it's like, it's like a cauldron, you know, happening, things are happening
08:47morning, evening is a full of social activity, economic activity, and, you know, environmental
08:52activities.
08:53So in urban areas, any private entrepreneur cannot work as conveniently as he can work
09:00on a national highway project, you know, or something like port project or something like
09:05a railway project.
09:06So there are challenges there, but not that kind.
09:09It's very, very difficult to work in a, in PPP mode in a urban sector.
09:14You see, so many I have seen.
09:15Because people are living there and it's, it's like a entire livelihoods will be shaken
09:20up at least for a little while.
09:23That is about the living part is definitely what you say is right.
09:26But in addition to that, the complexities are far more, you know, issues are at interplay,
09:31commercial economic activities and social activities, all are intertwined, all are intertwined.
09:37A person is not only living, he is also going for work, his family, children are going to
09:42school.
09:43And, you know, other family members are also busy here and there and social activities,
09:47marriages, and so many things are happening there, you know, in the same place as somebody
09:51in the, on the same day, so many births are happening in a small congested, you see, this
09:55area is how many square feet it is?
09:57I think it is 600 acres or something, 600 acres and 3 or 10 lakh people for a highest
10:03density area in the population density is the highest.
10:08And in that intense area, so many things keep on, if it rains heavily, there will be
10:13flooding.
10:14If it doesn't rain, there will be another mess.
10:15If waste is not removed properly, timely, then there will be another mess, danger of,
10:19you know, epidemic, pandemic, all kinds of happening there.
10:24Therefore, urban sector PPP project requires government support thoroughly.
10:29So to the extent, you know, people are complaining, I saw in newspaper, and there are allegations
10:35that government is going, you know, well beyond the normal extra mile in lending, helping
10:40hand.
10:41Now, my question is that, where, what has happened so far, you know, in the country
10:45as a whole, Dharavi is an example is one thing, but country as a whole, you see, then things
10:50will become clearer.
10:51If you only look at one particular project of Dharavi and go on analysing Threadware,
10:56what happened, what did not happen, you will get one picture.
10:59But if we see the overall fate of PPP projects in the country in urban sector, in urban,
11:05development itself, we can take up all right, if you don't have solid management, then nothing
11:10well, no, nothing worked anywhere, because it is not easy to relocate people without
11:15government support.
11:16You know, in this case, what happened is I have one clear example, what I read is that,
11:21you see, and you start the project, and there is no land, so where do you relocate the people,
11:25tell me that.
11:26As of now, you start the project, you relocate certain number of people to begin with to
11:30clear up the area.
11:31And a lot of them are working there, their livelihoods are there.
11:33So it just becomes all the more difficult to do that.
11:35There is no land, because it was all jam-packed.
11:39You see, people are living anywhere and everywhere, allowed or authorized or not authorized, anywhere
11:44and everywhere.
11:45And there may be one small piece of land of few hundred square feet, you cannot, you know,
11:49just build one person shift.
11:51You have to shift like something like 1000 houses or 500, to get a clear piece of land
11:56to develop.
11:57But where will those 500 houses, 1000 people, families go?
12:01So therefore, government has gone extra mile to, you know, acquire land.
12:06And I think they are paid something like 2000 crore or something to railways land and for
12:1150 acres of land they acquired to give, where otherwise, you put them in, it is theoretically
12:16we can say that, put them in tent houses and later, it doesn't work out, you know, that
12:20way.
12:21So therefore, I mean, I'm not going into the legal structure, whether the land transfer
12:26and contract agreement, what was written and all that, that is worth for the details.
12:33But concept-wise, if I have to go on the concept, it is a learning example.
12:37Suppose it was not built in the contract upfront, in future contracts, we must build this arrangement.
12:43We learn from this project, at least one project in the country must be successful, this some
12:49redevelopment.
12:50Otherwise, there is not much future for planned cities, you know, cities, Indian cities are
12:54in a mess everywhere.
12:56In Delhi, 40% of the population city is in slums, and instead of redeveloping the slum,
13:03it is being regularized.
13:04So which means that you are only changing the name, it is like you are having a temperature
13:08of let us say 100 degree, it is said to be you are having fever, but you declare tomorrow
13:13that 100.1 will be the normal temperature.
13:16And so therefore, you have no fever.
13:19So therefore, it is not like, you know, we have to take the, we have to accept the problem
13:24as it is.
13:25And the government is going extra mile, whether this extra mile is a part of contract or government
13:30is bending the contract to suit the contractor or the redevelopment agency is a matter for
13:37legal details.
13:38And I don't want to go into that.
13:40But I would say that we require.
13:41Right.
13:42So Dr. Prashanth also tell us now, with the Dharavi project focusing on as we've discussed
13:47better housing, improved infrastructure and economic development also, how does this initiative
13:55align with the broader efforts to enhance the quality of life for the people of Bombay,
13:59you know, Mumbai, Maharashtra, and as you said, probably even the rest of the country
14:03eventually.
14:04You see, such kind of vision is required for the city as a whole in terms of the master
14:09plan.
14:10The master plans prepared are, you know, somewhat inadequate, they do not focus on, they have
14:16got features.
14:17If you see the master plan of MMRDM, Mumbai Metropolitan Region Master Plan, or for that
14:23matter Delhi Master Plan, or any area, any region master plan, if you see, there will
14:28definitely be arrangements for, you know, social services and social sector benefits,
14:34housing, schools and playgrounds and so on, so forth.
14:38But this is all done on paper and not exactly implemented or implemented by numerous authorities.
14:44They may or may not do it.
14:45School with some school authority and playground with God knows which authority, sometime development
14:51authority will do it, sometime municipal corporation and so on, and playground, sometimes
14:56sports department might do it, sports authority, and similarly hospital will be, maybe by the
15:02municipality, maybe by the state government, and so, so it is all unclear, and as a result,
15:06you find at the end of the day, you know, the master plans do not end up providing all
15:10the infrastructure.
15:11So, there are very small projects of few hundred acres, you know, and if it is showing the
15:17way, we should take it that way also, as a planner, our planner should take note of this
15:23kind of redevelopment, you know, it is a redevelopment, please note that it is not a development of
15:28greenfield like Dholera, it's not a greenfield development like Naya Raipur or Gandhi Nagar
15:33in Gujarat.
15:34It is a redevelopment where intense livelihood activities were going on, people living for
15:39decades and kept on adding, or like in a dynamic fashion, very, without much data also, they
15:46data, how many are coming every day, could be known to us, but we don't know, but people
15:50are definitely, they must be coming.
15:52So, in such a situation, redevelopment of a dynamic, dense habitation is one challenge,
15:59which actually, why not be replicated?
16:02I would say that all states must take good note of this development, they should discuss
16:06the National Development Council meeting, if the, as I said earlier, that if the contract
16:11document has, because nothing is perfect in this world, you know, you draft any contract,
16:16document, after some time you feel there should be improvement, let us do that improvement
16:20for future, nothing wrong in that, you know, let us not stall this at all, because this
16:25is now or never kind of thing, and it should be done now, but only thing is, we should
16:30not stop at that, it should be replicated, multiplicated everywhere, in every city, not
16:36only in Maharashtra or Mumbai, but elsewhere, whole of the country must come there or watch
16:41what is happening in Dharavi.
16:43I think it is very, very important, and it is not beyond housing, if government has to
16:48go extra mile, I have seen solid waste management project in PPP mode, we gave under JNNURM,
16:53in many, many cities it was awarded, and within a couple of years, it fell flat, because there
16:58is so much complexity with the, for the private part, he is just an entrepreneur, he doesn't
17:03have police, you know, an entrepreneur doesn't have a police force with him, he doesn't have
17:07land records, access to land records, he doesn't have access to forest laws, he is a petitioner
17:12everywhere, he is a petitioner, a complainant everywhere, a private partner cannot work,
17:17if you really want to develop the urban sector, redevelop anything, I mean, develop anything,
17:22you want to develop roads, he wants your support, because there will be squatters on the road,
17:27if you want to redevelop road in public partnership mode, it is not possible for a private partner
17:32to do it, simply saying that all responsibilities will lie on the private partner, he is responsible,
17:38doesn't work, you know, then he collapses, he goes bankrupt, matter goes in court of law,
17:43and there the whole project languishes. So, I think we must support this project,
17:47it is a wonderful initiative, that it is taking off, it is a very good news.
17:53Absolutely. So, talking a little bit more on this, now Dr. Krishna, with the Fadnavis Shinde
17:58government also prioritizing this Dharavi redevelopment project, after nearly two decades
18:03of delays that we have seen. Now, in your opinion, how important is political will,
18:08though we have spoken about it, how important is the political will to ensure
18:13projects continuity and also shielded from future disruptions?
18:17Yeah, all projects of this nature, all urban projects require a strong political will,
18:22as it happens, you know, because we are noticing that olden time, this was the bureaucracy was
18:29ruling the, kind of, they were handling, controlling things, they were in control,
18:34like municipal commissioner, like district collector, they were like, just, I cannot use
18:39the word king or something, but something like they had control over everything, you can call
18:43a district collector as district controller, municipal commissioner as municipal controller,
18:48that kind of authority they had, and they used to talk also with a lot of confidence,
18:52it is my district, my city, I am, today people are losing that, you know,
18:56fervor, they are losing that confidence, yes, they are, because, and because they are now,
19:00they are confused, what political, because ultimately we are a democracy, so question
19:05of political will always has to be there, it is not a bureaucratic, bureaucracy ruled country,
19:10but then, you know, as things were there, earlier bureaucracy was having that kind of command and
19:15control and they were doing wonderful thing, today they are hesitant to do wonderful thing,
19:19because we are, democracy is coming at play in more intense manner, so therefore, in a democratic
19:24country, political will must drive, we should be proud of political will concept, you know,
19:28we should be proud of that, and really at all levels, not only at state level and national
19:32level, panchayat level, municipality level, we must see, I am not hearing much from the municipal
19:38mayor, there is no mayor in Mumbai, so there are other challenges, so the mayor should feel proud,
19:43the municipal commissioner should feel proud, that, you know, it is not only political will
19:46of chief minister or prime minister, why should not the mayor and the municipal commissioner also
19:50come forward and say that, my city, I am going to redevelop this slum, that slum,
19:54that is a solid waste, you know, where there is a heap of waste, I am going to clear up,
19:59should they not take challenge and say, but as things are, starting with political will,
20:03everything cannot come under, just broad based political will and rest of the bureaucracy must
20:08handle it, as is, because they are paid for it, they are there for that purpose only,
20:12because there is one mayor, one day he or she will come, there is one chief minister,
20:17but the bureaucracy is very large, when the thousands and thousands of fellows are there,
20:21they have, if they join together with that kind of, you know, mindset, so if the political will
20:25is given, gives a direction to bureaucracy, there are thousands and thousands of, you know,
20:31functionaries in the government, they become a formidable force to implement the project,
20:36you know, nothing will remain impossible, so Dharavi will show the way.
20:40Right, and the ownership needs to be taken at every level, of course.
20:44But then, you mentioned about, sorry, you mentioned about political will, if the political
20:48will gives the signal, then ownership will automatically come in the heart and mind of
20:52bureaucracy, then even they are normally confused, because one government says this,
20:56within no time another government, no, no, why did you do that, you fellows are aligning with
21:01this party, you did something wrong, and there's some, you know, mischief done by the previous set
21:05of officers, because the government has gone, so the people, they cannot be blamed, if you blame
21:10also, it will be only in newspapers, but officers will remain there for penal action, disciplinary
21:15rules, so therefore they become hesitant to do anything, you know, which is drastically new.
21:19And in certain cases, it becomes very important that probably the continuity of the government
21:25also becomes very important, so that the push to the bureaucracy, you know, continues.
21:30Well, yeah, this is the thing is continuity of, is a subject which is a matter of, because there
21:37are many things which allow things to continue, a government cannot continue only for one project,
21:41there are many other issues, that is one part, but as a concept, if country as a whole, if we decide
21:46that good projects, when they are taken up, you know, these projects should go to assembly for
21:50approval, once it is approved by the assembly in a proper manner, then any government comes,
21:55after all legislature is supreme in the country, you know, parliament is supreme, governments
21:58come and go, but parliament will remain parliament only, you know, it will remain parliament,
22:02resolution of parliament, resolution of state legislature remain as such, so all that has to,
22:07but only thing is, it should be like for such project, an awareness has to come at all levels,
22:12starting at political level and down below also. Now, the awareness is going away, awareness is
22:18being awareness about key issues, fundamentals is being taken away by partisan and narrow thinking,
22:24you know, and bureaucracy is losing its orientation, whether they have to work for long term
22:28vision or they have to only work for short term, you know, somebody said, some MLA said, do this,
22:33I have done that, you are a good guy, you know, or somebody said that you do, he did not do,
22:37you are a bad guy and you will be transferred, punished, this kind of things will not take
22:41Dharavi or any such project anywhere, if that kind of approach is there, you know.
22:45And it will just keep on stalling the development, which is the basic requirement for now.
22:50Absolutely, absolutely.
22:52Right. So, thank you so much, Dr. Sudhir Krishna, for joining us today and for sharing
22:56such valuable insights into the Dharavi redevelopment project. And your perspective
23:01has provided a very clear vision and of the understanding of the challenges and strategies
23:06that impact this transformative initiative. We also appreciate your time and expertise in
23:12helping us delve deeper into this landmark project and its significance for Mumbai's future.
23:16Thank you so much for joining us.
23:18Thank you very much. Thank you.