Science and Religion: Sadgun, Alex and Chris take a look at the relationship between science and religion.
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00:00Hi, I'm Dr. Chris Deasy.
00:02And I'm Sadgun.
00:03I'm an expert in the study of religion.
00:05And I'm a secondary school student.
00:06We're here to ask questions like,
00:08where does faith and religion come from?
00:11Why do people believe in a higher power?
00:13And why do a lot of people have no religion?
00:16Spirituality, science, conflict.
00:18Society and life after death.
00:20We'll be exploring all of this in...
00:22Generation Y!
00:30INTRO MUSIC
00:46In this episode, we're looking at the relationship between religion,
00:50spirituality and science.
00:52So do you think religion can be linked to our brain?
00:55Well, my research shows religious belief
00:57is heavily influenced by family and culture.
01:01And that there is currently no scientific proof
01:04that there's any part of our brain
01:06which makes us more likely to be religious.
01:09Personally, I think you're born into the religion that you're following,
01:12like I was born into Hinduism.
01:13What about people who say they've actually seen something
01:17which can't be fully explained by science?
01:18Well, something like a near-death experience,
01:21which is when your body is dead,
01:23but your mind is still active.
01:25People who say they've had one often have life-changing visions,
01:30sometimes claiming they've seen angels or spoken to a god.
01:33These experiences can also be linked to our dreams,
01:36and Alex has been to find out more.
01:44Could you tell me a little bit about yourself and your research?
01:47Yes, I'm Kate Adams,
01:48and I'm a professor of education at Leeds Trinity University.
01:52My research is into children and young people's spirituality.
01:56What do you think young people need to know about religious experiences?
02:00Well, from my own research,
02:02I've heard young people tell me about dreams they've had.
02:05For example, a Christian girl spoke about a big wall,
02:08and a wall in the middle.
02:09She described it to me saying,
02:11I was sitting on the side of the wall,
02:13which was a war zone with other people.
02:16Then I jumped over the wall.
02:17The other side of the wall was nice and peaceful.
02:20Then I sat down with God in a circle,
02:23and started praying while the battle carried on,
02:26on the other side of the wall.
02:27So I asked her,
02:28why do you think you have this dream?
02:30And she said,
02:31it was a special dream that I had to remember.
02:35So I asked her why she thought that she needed to remember it.
02:38And she replied,
02:40because it might be a prediction of the future
02:42that God would be trying to make this world peaceful.
02:45Now, in my research,
02:46I've also heard about imaginary or invisible friends,
02:51children seeing angels,
02:52remembering past lives,
02:54even when they don't come from a tradition
02:57which believes in reincarnation.
03:00And they've described encounters as well
03:02with deceased loved ones.
03:03But what does this all mean?
03:05Well, I think it tells us a lot about
03:09that there may well be more to life than meets the eye.
03:14I personally think that dreams can be really significant.
03:17I've had a few where I thought I saw something
03:20like an angel or something in my dreams.
03:22If for example,
03:23somebody has a very powerful spiritual dream,
03:26a neuroscientist would say,
03:30well, the dream you've just had,
03:32it's a result of neurons firing in the brain,
03:36and they're firing randomly.
03:38And then when we wake up,
03:40our brain automatically puts a story around that.
03:44Now, if you ask the same question to a psychoanalyst,
03:47they would say nothing you dream about is random.
03:51All these range of things which are embedded
03:54in many of the world's religions,
03:57both ancient and living,
04:00and yet so often just dismissed as imagination.
04:07So we can all have spiritual experiences unique to us.
04:10But does that mean all living, breathing things
04:12who think and feel have spirituality or even a soul?
04:16Well, there's certainly been research
04:17into chimps performing rituals
04:19and elephants coming together to mourn
04:22in a similar way to a funeral.
04:23To learn more, we met a spiritual healer
04:25for animals called Anthea
04:26before I had my very own animal adventure.
04:38These lovely ladies have been rescued
04:41from the illegal pet trade.
04:45And I'm...
04:47This is a sign from Barbary macaques
04:50of trust and peace,
04:52and I'm not threatening you.
04:54Within my healing work,
04:55there's lots of spiritual aspects,
04:57which starts from the foundation of energy.
04:59Science has looked into the cells and to the atoms
05:03and looked into protons and neutrons,
05:05and they just found that everything
05:06is just little swirls, cones of energy swirling.
05:10So it's kind of science and spirituality kind of combine.
05:15And when your intent is good,
05:16an animal will know.
05:18As a spiritual healer for animals,
05:20you can actually feel what they're feeling.
05:22It's called somatic feeling.
05:24You feel it within your body.
05:27We're now going to be meeting the Javan langurs.
05:30They're also known by some people as Javan lutens.
05:34We have a lead male who is Ginger.
05:36His name is Wheat.
05:37There he comes.
05:39There's a good boy.
05:41Last year they lost the second lead male in this troop
05:45who was Wheat's best friend.
05:48They would run around the enclosure
05:49and come together and have a big hug.
05:51He couldn't eat for seven days
05:53and he had nobody to hug.
05:54Now Treacle, she lost an eye in this time.
05:57Eventually they came together
05:59and they now are found hugging.
06:01These guys are really good example of primates
06:05showing love and sharing emotion
06:07and being supportive of each other.
06:11Horses are said to be spiritual creatures and animals.
06:14So I've come to a stable in Kent
06:15along with my brother Yashveer.
06:17Hi.
06:17To meet Lilian and Robbie the horse
06:19to talk about spirituality
06:21and the importance of animals in Hinduism.
06:25Robbie is 18 years old.
06:27We've had him here since he was five
06:29but his favourite thing is to eat
06:31especially apples and carrots.
06:33So do you think Robbie has a soul?
06:35As you can see, he's very, very calm.
06:37The horse's eye is the window to his soul
06:40and I would say from that,
06:41Robbie has a really lovely soul
06:43because he is a really nice horse.
06:45In our religion, in Hinduism,
06:47animals are very well respected
06:49and they have very great significance as well.
06:51They're just innocent beings in nature
06:52that God has created.
06:53In ancient texts, Lord Surya, our sun god,
06:57we believe that he rides in a chariot
06:59that is pulled by seven horses
07:00and we believe those seven horses
07:02are really strong and powerful
07:04and they signify the seven days a week,
07:06the seven chakras of yoga
07:07and the seven colours of rainbow
07:09showing their importance.
07:10So there's a god called Hayagriva
07:13who has a horse head.
07:15We worship Lord Hayagriva
07:17who gives us power for concentration
07:19in our studies
07:20and who lets us do a lot of stuff
07:23and remember a lot of things.
07:25Do you feel like you have a connection
07:26with Robbie which could be considered spiritual?
07:30I'm not sure about spiritual
07:32but I understand their body language.
07:34I can see when they move their ears,
07:37perhaps when they're in pain,
07:39when they're happy.
07:40My other horse that I had,
07:41I had a real connection with him
07:44and he would know when I arrived at the yard.
07:46When he died,
07:47it was one of the worst things in my life.
07:50Horses can be a little bit frightening
07:51because as you can see,
07:52he's rather large, isn't he?
07:53At first, I thought he was very large
07:55but now because we're talking to each other
07:58and I see how Robbie is,
08:00I feel like he's really kind and gentle.
08:03I also felt very scared at first
08:05because he's a humongous horse.
08:07I've never been close to a horse as well
08:09but now I feel much more relaxed
08:10because he's not really angry at all.
08:12You know, you give to them love
08:14and they give that love back to you.
08:18Something else is a supernatural and ghost.
08:20I think many people believe in their existence
08:23but again, it's very hard,
08:24almost impossible,
08:26to prove scientifically.
08:27I myself am quite superstitious
08:29and find ghosts very scary.
08:31Well, we called on Alex
08:32to investigate paranormal activity in Nottingham.
08:43What is it exactly that you guys believe in?
08:46We don't believe in the fact of the religious side
08:49or the spiritual side.
08:51We believe that there is something after.
08:54We don't just die and that's it
08:57because you can't kill energy
08:59and we are built up of energy.
09:02Energy can't be destroyed
09:03but we investigate by science.
09:06That's the way we investigate.
09:07We do it by the scientific side
09:09with the equipment and things like that.
09:11Yeah.
09:12So, I mean, we do have a lot of sceptics.
09:18We've come up to the doll room
09:20and we're going to try and get
09:22a bit more paranormal activity up here.
09:25I've got a REM pod
09:26but with this one,
09:28the spirit has to be touching the aerial.
09:33Yeah.
09:33So, if I put that there,
09:38they don't actually have to be touching it.
09:40So, shall we see if we can get the spirits to touch that?
09:42Sure.
09:44If there's anyone here with us
09:45wanting to communicate with us, come forward.
09:48I've seen something in the corner of my eye over there.
09:50Like when you said the shadow people before,
09:54how it shows like a shadow.
09:57I think that's what I've seen,
09:58like in the corner of my eye.
09:59And what would you say to people who are like sceptical
10:02and think, oh, well, it's just the machine.
10:05Okay, they were mad at you then.
10:06They were like, no.
10:07I think that was just proving a point is like,
10:09yeah, sceptical.
10:10Yes, it went to the purpose as well.
10:11As soon as you mentioned scepticism,
10:14it decided, hello.
10:16Yeah.
10:17I came here already superstitious
10:20but I feel like I definitely am leaving
10:22a lot more superstitious than I was before.
10:26As of right now, I feel
10:28like more attracted towards the side of spirituality
10:32and spirits being like real and around us.
10:36Yeah, I feel a lot more.
10:39They like that answer.
10:40Yeah, it likes what you've just said there.
10:43I'm feeling quite excited.
10:44And I love the fact that it's opened your minds up.
10:48We just got the words Harry in muscle and place.
10:51We've had Harry in here before.
10:53It's your own personal space.
10:56It's your own personal choice, just like your beliefs.
11:01Okay, that's you, Harry.
11:04Stop the lights if it's Harry.
11:07It's not Harry.
11:08It might be.
11:09Bit of a delay, that was all.
11:12It's kind of weird.
11:12I feel like there's something here,
11:14but I don't know what.
11:15I feel like a presence
11:17and I keep feeling it to this side of me.
11:19It's not touching, it just feels like...
11:21You can feel it.
11:22Yeah.
11:22That's where you saw the shadow though, wasn't it?
11:25In around the corner of the room, yeah.
11:27Are you going to say goodbye to us
11:29by lighting the lights for us?
11:33Please?
11:35Are you wanting us to stay?
11:36Oh, there we go.
11:45Pretty spooky stuff, Chris.
11:47Yes, but what's real and what's not?
11:49Are we programmed to believe in gods, spirits and ghosts?
11:53We're going to be discussing this and more in our group chat.
12:01Welcome back to Generation Y.
12:03In this episode's group chat,
12:04we went to Birmingham's Tilecross Academy.
12:06Where I was joined by AI expert Matt,
12:09Siberian shaman Baryshka,
12:11Carissa, who's a psychologist of religion,
12:13and our very own Alex was also on the panel.
12:16I then spoke to four students from the school.
12:19We talk about humans, but the role of animals,
12:21do we overlook the role that animals play in faith?
12:25It's hard to say whether even humans have souls,
12:31especially, particularly, you know,
12:33what is the definition of a soul?
12:35And I think you would say the same for animals.
12:37So is it just thinking that means that you have a soul?
12:41Or is it how you kind of have intelligence,
12:45how you kind of have intelligence,
12:48or how you interpret your experiences, right?
12:52So it's a really difficult question to answer.
12:56Baryshka, I don't know in terms of shamanism,
12:59you know, whether the role of animals plays a significance.
13:02Shamanism is an animistic practice.
13:05So it means that everything has a spirit.
13:08We don't use the word soul.
13:11Everything is made from energy.
13:12Being a shaman is being able to feel all those energies,
13:18all those spirits and deal with them.
13:20Alex, we were watching you in a haunted museum.
13:23Yeah.
13:24So that whole thing about being superstitious,
13:26are we allowed to be superstitious anymore?
13:28Does that kind of fit with a scientific kind of way
13:32of looking at the world?
13:33I've kind of always been a little bit superstitious.
13:36I've had stuff happen in my life where I've kind of believed
13:40in maybe there's like a higher power,
13:42or there's like spirits, or there's a ghost.
13:44But definitely going to the haunted museum
13:47and actually experiencing it in like the professional way
13:49of using like EMF readers,
13:52it was definitely really eye-opening.
13:53All this talk about ghosts and angels and dreams,
13:58you know, is this all a load of nonsense?
14:01I don't know if I would say that everything,
14:03like this is a load of nonsense.
14:04I think I'm really interested here
14:06in how we explain things to ourselves.
14:09Why are there these phenomena
14:11that we don't have a good answer for?
14:13And there are absolutely gaps in science,
14:16gaps in psychology.
14:17Alex, when you had your experience at the museum,
14:21that affected you.
14:22So that experience was real
14:24because it had an effect on you, right?
14:26So I'm not making any truth claims about what you saw,
14:29but I am able to say that your experience was real.
14:33I have to ask this question, Matt,
14:35about whether technology might be replacing religion.
14:39And could we end up with a kind of almost online afterlife,
14:44our souls being uploaded somewhere?
14:47Is that the kind of future we can envisage?
14:49I don't think that we've seen a correlation
14:51between the rise of the internet
14:52and the decline of religion.
14:54In fact, people are thinking more openly
14:57and are in touch with more communities
14:58around the world than ever before.
15:00As to whether we might then continue our lives online,
15:03it depends what we mean by life.
15:05If life is your sense of having a body
15:08and having a thought,
15:09and that is able to be described
15:11as the electrical impulses in your brain,
15:13and then we can also replicate
15:14those electrical impulses in a computer,
15:16sure, we can live forever
15:18because eventually we'll have computers
15:19powerful enough to do that.
15:20But is that really what makes us human?
15:23Is the kind of like wetware,
15:25the messy kind of brain stuff
15:26that we have inside a special in some way?
15:29And I think that that's something
15:30that we don't have an answer to yet.
15:31Please tell me your name, age,
15:32and the question for the panel today.
15:34Hi, my name is Fatima.
15:35I'm 12 years old.
15:36I wanted to ask something for Alex.
15:38Like when you were at the museum,
15:40did you feel like a cold presence
15:42or was it like an eerie one?
15:44It did feel a little bit cold.
15:46And at first I thought it was the window
15:48that was open because there was a window in the back.
15:50But I looked at the window,
15:52the window wasn't open,
15:53the heating was on.
15:54And the room is already cold in itself,
15:56but I felt like something cold on my shoulder.
15:59And then it also felt like a gust of wind go past me.
16:02And I thought it was nothing.
16:03And then Thomas said that he saw something.
16:06So then I kind of realised that I felt a presence.
16:08Hi, my name is Sky and I'm 12 years old.
16:10And can robots become religious?
16:12That question of why do we want robots to be like us,
16:15I think is a really important question.
16:16Why do we want to build artificial intelligences
16:18in our image rather than building them
16:20as being very, very good at doing something new,
16:23something that is unique?
16:24Why do we actually have to model them after us?
16:26That said, if we are going to make robots
16:29to be exactly like human beings,
16:31human beings have a tendency to be religious,
16:33therefore I presume that robots will have a tendency
16:35to be religious as well.
16:36Robots are currently being used
16:39in various religious practices.
16:41So it's hard to say whether those robots themselves
16:45are religious.
16:46Probably most people would argue against that,
16:47but they're being used in religious contexts,
16:49such as doing rituals.
16:52You have a phenomenon of robo-priests
16:54and things like this that you can kind of,
16:56and people chatting with AI about religious topics, right?
17:00So you have AI being used in that way,
17:04you have robots being used in that way now,
17:06but whether or not you actually would classify them
17:09as being religious,
17:10they're being used in a religious context,
17:12they're existing in that context.
17:14But it kind of depends on what we mean by them
17:16actually being religious.
17:18And who knows, maybe one day we'll have somebody
17:21on this panel who'll be an AI creation,
17:24or who knows?
17:26My name's Luke and I'm 12.
17:28All animals have spirits.
17:29Everything has a spirit
17:30because everything was created from energy.
17:33We are created as the table with atoms.
17:37And atoms, life is movement.
17:39Atoms, they move, so they create energy.
17:41Energy is a spirit.
17:43Having animals myself in the past,
17:46you can definitely see it in them
17:48that they feel something.
17:50And I also feel like they can kind of be with you
17:53in the afterlife and they're with you
17:57and they can guide you
17:58and they give you a lot of signs
17:59of like they're there and they're following you.
18:01So I definitely feel like they do.
18:02Amazon, I'm 12 years old
18:04and will AIs take over the world?
18:06It kind of already has.
18:07In the artificial intelligence
18:09is part of everything that we do every day.
18:12Takeover suggests some kind of malicious intent
18:14and also our not being in control.
18:17So it's really interesting that with the new kinds of AI
18:20that are emerging, things like chat GPT,
18:22the researchers that have made them
18:23don't really know how they work.
18:25And they call this a black box technology.
18:28They know the information going in.
18:29They know the information coming out.
18:31They don't quite know how it's getting there yet.
18:33And so this is an area
18:35that we might call AI security or AI ethics.
18:38And the worry here is if we don't know
18:40how these artificial intelligences are functioning,
18:43if they go out onto the internet,
18:45if they are able to self-replicate,
18:46and if you say, hey AI, I've got 10 pounds.
18:48Can you turn it into a thousand pounds for me?
18:51And then you just let it do its thing.
18:53Is there the potential then
18:54for it to start making copies of itself,
18:56to be replicating,
18:57to be going into different parts of our systems,
18:59and for us to not understand
19:00how it is working and doing these things?
19:02What if it becomes more intelligent than us?
19:05How are we then able to control it?
19:06If it becomes a superhuman intelligence,
19:09we are not there yet.
19:10And I think that's really important to emphasize.
19:11Most of us, we want an easy life.
19:14So robots, they're welcome just to do things for us.
19:17But my question is, what about the future?
19:20Do you want just to have some food
19:22and just to enjoy life, some holidays,
19:25but everything is driven by robots?
19:28For me, it's not funny.
19:29I'm kind of scared, to be honest,
19:31because I've seen stuff on the news
19:33about how AI can interpret people's voices,
19:37and it's being used to scam
19:39your family members out of money.
19:41And that just sounds terrifying to me.
19:43If AI can do that now,
19:45what can it do in 20 years?
19:46Can it impersonate a whole human?
19:50Do you think animals are capable of holding feelings
19:54and sharing feelings with humans?
19:56I think that animals sometimes have
20:00a certain connection with humans,
20:02and it's all based on how you treat them
20:06and how they feel about you.
20:08For me, I do believe that
20:10people have connections with animals
20:12and certain animals that people come close with.
20:15Animals definitely have some sort of connection to humans,
20:19because if you do something to make them happy,
20:20the dog obviously wags the tail
20:22or something to show their affection towards you.
20:25You see that animals get attached to their owners,
20:28and they also show affection for their owners.
20:30So we've been talking about ghosts.
20:32So why do you think we're scared of ghosts?
20:35I feel like some people believe ghosts have bad intentions,
20:38but then also you do have spirits
20:39that are either here for good or bad things.
20:42So I think some people just mix that,
20:44and then they will think that everything's just bad,
20:46that they shouldn't express themselves to that.
20:50I'm not sure what my religion thinks about a ghost,
20:52but since young, I've never watched a horror movie either,
20:55and that is the reason I've not gone to the haunted museum part as well,
20:58because I was just too afraid to go there.
21:00I think that ghosts are seen as bad
21:02because they're always perceived as bad creatures or bad beings.
21:06Some people may be scared of them
21:08just because they haven't experienced it for themselves
21:10and they don't know the full potential that they hold
21:12or what it actually is there.
21:15So one thing we've talked about is dreams.
21:20Have you ever had a dream,
21:21and do you feel like there's a connection and a hidden meaning?
21:24How far do you think that is correct?
21:26For me, I've had very many dreams
21:27that have actually been warnings or signs
21:29and that have actually come true to some extent.
21:33But yes, I do think dreams have very many connections
21:35because I've gone weeks where I've had really bad dreams
21:38or one week where I've had a completely good dream,
21:40and I think they're just warning or symbols.
21:42I think the dreams reflect your mood and emotions
21:45through how you were feeling the following day.
21:48I think that dreams could give us guidance on the day.
21:53So if you have a bad week,
21:54it would give you guidance for the next week.
21:57And another question that was asked on the panel
21:59was about artificial intelligence.
22:01Do we need to be scared or happy
22:03that artificial intelligence is growing?
22:05I think that to an extent,
22:06there should be some sort of awareness of it
22:10because of how strong or no one actually understands
22:13the full potential of artificial intelligence.
22:17But it's also a help for some.
22:19I think that artificial intelligence is helpful,
22:21but I think there should be a limit on how much it could do
22:24because it could overtake.
22:26I think we should be scared, but to an extent,
22:28because obviously it's been very helpful.
22:30And I think in the future,
22:31we'll be able to help with more things.
22:32But then again, there's the other side
22:34where people are not really sure
22:36how it's working and what's going on.
22:38Do you think at this point,
22:39science and religion work together
22:41or do they always conflict?
22:42Right now, I think science and religion,
22:44sometimes it's like obviously collides
22:46and it doesn't really work.
22:48But then also with the Big Bang Theory,
22:50I don't think everything can just happen like that.
22:52There has to be something that's created it.
22:54I think to an extent they do work together,
22:56but also they do conflict in some aspect.
23:00We've been talking about ghosts,
23:01we've been talking about AI,
23:02we've been talking about animals.
23:05So what do you think makes us human?
23:08I think obviously our energy we built up and our soul.
23:11But I think what good we've put out
23:13is obviously going to mix with our energies
23:15and create us to be who we are.
23:19We really could have kept going.
23:21And what wonderful thoughts too
23:22from students at the school.
23:23But that's it for now.
23:24We'll have more to talk about next time on...
23:26Generation Y!