The Verge's Victoria Song joins the show to talk about her year of testing smart rings, and which of the many new options is the one you should buy. Then Chris Welch takes us through his testing of the new hearing health features for Apple's AirPods, including the surprisingly intense hearing test you can take right on your phone. Finally, Andrew Webster helps us answer a question on the Vergecast Hotline: why doesn't Apple buy Nintendo, and what would happen if it did?
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TechTranscript
00:00:00Welcome to the Verge cast the flagship podcast of decades of listening to music too loud in your headphones
00:00:05I'm your friend David Pierce and I am sitting here at my computer doing what I call a feeds reboot
00:00:11I think I've talked about this on the show before but basically once a year
00:00:14I try to go through and just take all the stuff out of every single
00:00:19Feed or thing that I subscribe to on the internet and I define that super loosely
00:00:24So I try to go through all the people I follow on every social platform
00:00:28I go through all the email newsletters. I subscribe to I go through all the email newsletters
00:00:32I never subscribe to but I'm somehow on the list for all the channels. I follow on YouTube all the podcasts
00:00:37I subscribe to anything that just puts an ongoing list of stuff in front of me at any given time
00:00:44Once a year
00:00:44I try to go through it all look at every single source that stuff is coming from and get rid of all the stuff
00:00:49I don't want anymore over the course of a year
00:00:52You just become like a different person with different interests and a lot of the sources you care about
00:00:57Get better or worse or more relevant or less relevant and once a year to just go through the whole list
00:01:03Is really helpful
00:01:05It's super boring frankly and kind of tedious because most of these platforms don't make it easy to go through and sort of systematically
00:01:12unfollow things
00:01:13But it's so helpful. I cannot recommend it enough. I try to like put on a movie
00:01:18I've seen before or just a bunch of episodes of The Office in a row or when the weather's nice
00:01:22I'll go like sit at a coffee shop and just over the course of an afternoon
00:01:25Burn through all of the feeds that I have I find this actually most useful in an RSS reader where there's tons of things that like
00:01:33change a bunch or publish too much or publish not enough or go out of business or whatever and
00:01:38Going through and doing a full reset of all the stuff that is being pushed at me is so helpful
00:01:44Highly recommend it again. Not a lot of fun, but totally worth it
00:01:48Anyway, one thing you should not unsubscribe to by the way is the verge cast. This is a very good podcast
00:01:53I hope we're doing our best and we have a super fun show coming up today. Actually, we're gonna talk about two things first
00:02:00We're gonna talk about smart rings because I think smart rings are really interesting and this has been
00:02:04In a certain way kind of the year of the smart ring. We've gotten a bunch of new entrants
00:02:08We've gotten new models from some of the companies that have been doing this a while
00:02:12Vsaung has tested everything there is to test and has some thoughts. So we're gonna talk about it
00:02:17We're also gonna talk about the hearing health features on the new AirPods Pro 2
00:02:21Which I think are actually pretty cool and exciting but are also big promises from a company like Apple promising that your
00:02:29AirPods can act as a hearing aid and really make a difference in how you hear and operate in the world
00:02:35If that stuff works, it's awesome, and there should be more like it, but we're gonna see if it works
00:02:39Chris Welch has been testing it. He knows the answer. We also have a really fun question on the verge cast hotline
00:02:44So much stuff to do
00:02:46But first I have to finish this feeds reboot
00:02:48I normally do it in the summer, but this year just couldn't make myself sit down and do it and now I'm doing it
00:02:54I'm in it. I'm getting it done. It's gonna be awesome. This is the verge cast. We'll be right back
00:03:01Welcome back. All right, my podcasts have been pruned the RSS reader is just humming
00:03:08Everything is great. Let's get into it. So the first thing we're gonna talk about today is smart rings. I
00:03:14Don't wear a smart ring, but I'm fascinated by them because for years now they have been this really interesting
00:03:22Device kind of trying to figure out what it's for you wear it on your finger
00:03:26Which gives it access to some really interesting biometric data
00:03:28You also typically wear it all the time because it's a ring and it's unobtrusive and you just can wear it all the time
00:03:34So in theory, it has access to all this interesting information about you and the ability to do all kinds of interesting stuff
00:03:41But it's a tiny gadget with a tiny battery and not that much literal physical room to do stuff
00:03:47So, how do you make a smart ring? That's good. And what does it even mean to make one? That's good
00:03:53Like I said, I don't wear a smart ring
00:03:55but V song does she actually wore six like for months to do a test to see what the best one is and I
00:04:01Wanted to have her on both to see what she learned and whether she figured out what a smart ring is really for
00:04:07So let's just get into it V. Hello
00:04:10Thanks for having me gadgets so many gadgets. We just we talk about watches. We talk about rings
00:04:16We talk about things on your face
00:04:18This is just what we do you wear things and look ridiculous in public and then I ask you about it
00:04:22This is this is our lives. Yeah, this is you know, it's a burden
00:04:26I'm willing to take so no one else has to look stupid. It's beautiful. We appreciate it
00:04:30So the the thing I mostly want to talk about I confess is the new or a ring a device
00:04:36I have been fascinated by for a very long time and
00:04:39Both think is very interesting and not nearly as interesting as it should be but we're gonna get to that
00:04:44First I think I want to talk about this this battle royale of smart rings that you did and put yourself through some true
00:04:52Like a summer's worth of pain
00:04:56So first just like lay the stakes of this experiment for me because I think to some extent like most people even most people
00:05:02Listening to this have never given one second of thought to a smart ring in their whole lives
00:05:07So I'm very curious like how you go through the process of picking the best one and wearing six of them at a time
00:05:13Yeah, so I decided that I was gonna wear six smart rings all at the same time for about I want to say
00:05:21To about two and a half three months earlier this summer which six fingers by the way
00:05:27No, no pinky. No thumb because those are you know, two extremes
00:05:32So just the middle three, so you did like you did a brass knuckles. I did I did
00:05:37I was a smart ring mafia wife. I love this for you for
00:05:40For a solid three months ended up with six ring tans over the summer despite all my best efforts at sunscreen
00:05:48It just happened. You must look like you had some like unknowable disease just to have six ring tans
00:05:56Yeah, they've they've somewhat faded now because the experiment is over. I declared a winner
00:06:01but yeah, so, you know it
00:06:05This idea actually popped into my head a few months before the summer because I knew that the Samsung Galaxy ring was coming
00:06:13and that in order to review that I
00:06:16Needed to know about the entire
00:06:19Landscape, but you know
00:06:20I didn't want to subject all of our readers to a bunch of little smart ring reviews as I was testing stuff
00:06:27So what I ended up doing was taking a look at the market. What was currently available was coming out and I decided
00:06:35Let's do this gauntlet
00:06:37Where I test all of them at the same time and tell you which is the best at being a smart ring
00:06:42Can I tell you what's interesting about that to me by the way?
00:06:44And this is we're just I'm just diving into the results before I even let you finish your question
00:06:48But the thing that was so striking to me was that a there were six of these which I would not have guessed
00:06:52that there were like six actual viable competitors here and
00:06:56How much the same all six of these are in sort of what they are and what they are trying to be like
00:07:04God help you having to review this six times in a row
00:07:08It's like it's like I feel for the people who have to like review the the $500 Android phones because they're just all
00:07:16The same and and at some point it's really helpful to be like, okay. These are basically all the same
00:07:21Let's run through the like narrow ways in which they are different
00:07:24But even just reading through the thing I was surprised at how few
00:07:28sort of differences in ideas
00:07:31These six things had yeah
00:07:33So when smart rings first were a thing like ten years ago or so
00:07:36there were a lot of ideas as to what a smart ring could be you had something like ringly and
00:07:43Motive ringly was just a big fashion thing that didn't do too much very unobtrusive
00:07:49But just really there for people who wanted something fashionable that could also track stuff
00:07:53and then you had motive which had some really big ideas about two-factor authentication in a smart ring and
00:08:00Fitness tracking on top of that, you know at some point before they shuttered
00:08:04They were like we're gonna be able to authenticate you based on your gate
00:08:08So there was a lot of weird interesting ideas
00:08:10But the one ring that survived that first iteration of smart rings was the aura ring
00:08:15And so this second class batch of that had came after it in many ways
00:08:21They're just trying to do what the aura ring got successful at with a twist, right?
00:08:28So that's what I came up against with a lot of these competitors. I too was surprised
00:08:34At CES this year when I went I went oh my god
00:08:38Why are there like a half a dozen smart rings out there?
00:08:41I guess this popped up and has been a thing. Okay, cool
00:08:47I guess and then you know, the really big impetus was Samsung coming out in February going like hey, we're getting in on
00:08:54Smart rings and so I found myself in a situation where it was
00:08:58okay, we we gotta do a deep dive into this and see because
00:09:02Samsung's big Samsung
00:09:04Samsung if they were successful and smart rings, you know that had an opportunity to get other big tech to maybe copy them
00:09:12so
00:09:14That that was the whole thought process behind it and it was it was real fun to just go through all of them and go
00:09:21Like, oh you have ideas, but they are not even a quarter baked forget half-baked
00:09:26You are you know, if you watch Great British Bake Off and Paul Hollywood goes and he goes, oh, this is underdone
00:09:34There were some there were some
00:09:36Rings that were oh, this is this is extremely underdone
00:09:41It was the circular ring slim that was my least favorite of the bunch
00:09:45It just did not do what was supposed to do. It felt really cheap on the finger
00:09:49they have since reached out to me since I wrote this and they're like we addressed some of the issues and
00:09:55Which is the story we hear all the time all the time is often not the case
00:09:59Yeah often not the case, but like one of the things they said they addressed
00:10:04Was the fact that this is this was the only smart ring that had a haptic motor in it
00:10:08so I had high hopes because
00:10:10It's a smart ring that has ideas about what the smart part of a smart ring should be
00:10:16that haptic alarm was just the nightmare because you had to tap above a very
00:10:21Imperceptible hard-to-see logo and I just ended up smacking my hand most mornings being very frustrated why this thing wouldn't stop buzzing
00:10:28They said you can just tap the ring anywhere now and it's fine and we'll see we'll see
00:10:34Yeah, I confess that is one use case. I think could be very cool
00:10:37I I honestly like the whole reason I wear the Apple watch to bed is to use it as an alarm
00:10:44I just think it's a nicer thing to wake up to especially when you sleep next to someone then having like a big loud alarm
00:10:49So the idea of being able to do that on a ring and not have to wear the watch
00:10:52Super interesting and exciting to me. Also, neither of the options you just described sound like good useful reliable ones
00:11:01So remains to be seen also, we've already talked too much about the circular slim
00:11:05But notably neither circular nor slim. It's almost notably no and it's it was the least comfortable of all of them
00:11:13it felt 3d printed and that just was kind of ha
00:11:18Not cool
00:11:19I was on reddit and in some of the circular forums and there were a lot of angry people on there just because
00:11:25There's just a bunch of really cool ideas
00:11:28but
00:11:29Very underdone in terms of execution. So that was very easy to eliminate as like straight off from the get-go is like no
00:11:37Sorry, you are not the best
00:11:39Yeah, the next one. I think you probably had a harder time getting rid of if knowing a little bit
00:11:44I knew about this research process. I'm guessing this is a harder one. Yeah, I really have enjoyed the Evie ring
00:11:51I've been talking to the company behind at Movano for years because they just were really gung-ho about the FDA clearance process
00:11:59So that kind of sets them apart in terms of accuracy
00:12:02They had a very interesting idea in terms of design
00:12:05It has an open gap at the top which I I will say one of the most frustrating things about smart rings is sizing
00:12:13Uh smart watches have bands you can adjust them. It's very easy to adjust them
00:12:19Smart rings less so because it's on your finger. They're not adjustable
00:12:24Uh, there's a lot of tech inside so you can't get them resized
00:12:27you just have to get the right size that fits you and
00:12:31What most people don't realize is that you bloat
00:12:35You have you have a lot of pasta one night or the temperature rises your fingers swell
00:12:40So, you know, it can be very hard to get these rings off
00:12:44especially
00:12:45You know there you're supposed to wear smart rings on your index finger. That's going to be the most uh accurate but you know
00:12:52Maybe that's just not in the cards for you
00:12:54Maybe you want them to wear uh be worn on the middle finger or the ring finger
00:12:59so, you know, uh, just
00:13:01It can it can change the size that you need and you could gain weight
00:13:05You could lose weight that will also change how a ring fits on you
00:13:09Not so much of an issue with the evie ring because of that open gap design is always very easy to take off
00:13:14It's very comfortable to wear. I thought that was really clever
00:13:18Uh, it looked so nice. It was so pretty. Uh, but it's it's a first gen product
00:13:24And it had some very first gen quirks and again
00:13:28This is going to be a theme with some of the the rings on this list
00:13:31They have gone and they said we have addressed some of the feedback since the first run. Um,
00:13:38so yeah, we will see how how that how that goes going on, but
00:13:42you know
00:13:43I really loved the hardware design
00:13:45But it's not just the hardware that matters if you're using it as a fitness tracker the software how that data is presented to you
00:13:53Also matters and there was just some quirks here that i'm hoping will get smoothed over in a second iteration
00:14:00Yeah, agreed you I think my my only gripe with this part of your
00:14:06piece was that I think you
00:14:08If anything undersold how much better looking this thing is than every other one of the competition
00:14:13Like it really is you could put the six of them next to each other and it would be the other five in one
00:14:18Bucket and then this one on its own, right?
00:14:20Like it is it is yeah a full like order of magnitude more stylish and attractive than the others
00:14:27uh, so like kudos that doesn't
00:14:31Get you anywhere. Like, you know that that and a nickel buy you a coke, but uh
00:14:36It's that's a cool interesting start right and you ran into one of my favorite things about first gen products, which is uh
00:14:45My pet theory forever has been that if you make a product and it's hard to update the firmware your product probably sucks
00:14:51it's just it's a real like
00:14:53the the
00:14:54tiny details that matter right like if you haven't fixed that there are probably other things that you haven't paid attention to and
00:15:01uh, this is one of those things but it gives me great hope that there are a lot of things that ev can go get
00:15:07Right that are easier than making nice looking hardware and if it does those things
00:15:12That could be very compelling
00:15:13I I have a have a bit of faith in the company because i've talked to their ceo a bunch of times and
00:15:18This is a dude who is very well versed in the medical space
00:15:22and what it takes to make a fda cleared product, so I I
00:15:26I generally give that a lot of credit because it takes a certain level of dedication
00:15:31And resources to go that route to begin with
00:15:35So, you know, I I wanted to give them a little more
00:15:39You know cut them some slack but you know
00:15:41This is a battle royale. We can't be too nice. So they unfortunately were kicked out second
00:15:47Yeah, and yeah, all right
00:15:48We're gonna skip over the next one, which is the ring con because you barely even talked about it
00:15:53You're like this thing is thoroughly fine who cares moving on so this thing is fine who cares moving on?
00:15:57Uh, the next one was the galaxy ring. Um, I will say I would have guessed
00:16:02Probably those first three would have been the first three you would have gotten rid of this was the first one that surprised
00:16:07Me that it went here. Tell me why yeah, the hardware's great. I think it actually has the best hardware. It's the slimmest
00:16:14it's the most comfortable to wear, uh besides the evie ring, but you you know what you know what i'm saying and uh
00:16:20At the time it had the largest size range. Uh, it no longer does
00:16:24uh, but
00:16:25it just
00:16:27Doesn't stand alone the thing about the galaxy ring on its own
00:16:33Is that it doesn't do a whole lot. It's a fitness tracker it
00:16:37It's an okay fitness tracker. Um
00:16:40The battery life will be better if you get it with a galaxy watch because it does like some smart sensor trade-off
00:16:45As to like which one's going to be more accurate and that bore out in my testing
00:16:49Which is super cool, by the way, like it's very cool as an ecosystem player. I actually think that's really clever, but it does
00:16:56like if you're if you're narrowing it down to
00:16:58Only people have samsung phones and narrowing it down again to only people who have galaxy watches
00:17:03You've like the number of people who get the best version of this product is just very small
00:17:08It's very small. And then if you have the newest and you've already spent a ton of money
00:17:13If you have the newest right smart, uh, samsung galaxy flip 6 or the fold 6
00:17:19You know, you can also use it as a pinchy pinch gesture control for certain things on the phone
00:17:24And that's something they're interested in expanding very cool idea
00:17:28Awesome in terms of ecosystem play if you you know can
00:17:33Stomach ecosystems as a thing that we're being locked into but okay
00:17:38So you're gonna buy the the fold six
00:17:41You're gonna buy a galaxy watch on top of that and you're gonna buy a smart ring
00:17:45There's no discount bundle for getting all three of those things together. You are spending over two thousand dollars at this point
00:17:52close to
00:17:54Thousand dollars, uh doesn't matter if there's no subscription because you've just paid samsung
00:18:00$3,000 to get the full
00:18:02benefit range of this samsung galaxy ring and then also it is
00:18:08Very much tied to the android ecosystem only
00:18:11so
00:18:12You know, uh, i'm sure I I got so many angry samsung people by eliminating it this early
00:18:19And don't get me wrong. It's a great little ring. I love the little charging case
00:18:23I think the hardware is really excellent, but
00:18:27You shouldn't have to pay three thousand dollars to get the full range
00:18:32Of what it can do it's full to unlock its full potential like in some ways weighing that cost versus a subscription
00:18:40Yeah, they don't have to charge you a subscription if you're willing to pay three thousand dollars to get everything
00:18:45Yeah, and I think
00:18:46To me, it's just a totally different way of thinking about a smart ring and it's not necessarily wrong
00:18:51It's just really different right? Like this is a thing you buy after you have bought those other devices
00:18:57Uh, the the ring is not the entry point into samsung's ecosystem
00:19:01you're not going to go buy these other devices because you want the galaxy ring and
00:19:05If you already have those other devices
00:19:07Kick ass. I think there's a there's a decent chance
00:19:09This is the best choice if if you're like i'm coming to this shootout. Yes. I already own these two devices
00:19:15I think the galaxy ring probably wins or at least comes close
00:19:19uh
00:19:20But that's not most people and and you're not and you you're not and you shouldn't make those other choices just to get a smart ring
00:19:26Yeah, it's also not most people looking for a smart ring. Like the people looking for a smart ring is very kind of
00:19:34Uh, they're a defined set of people. I would say a lot of them are people who just don't like smart watches
00:19:40So immediately you're you're kind of losing that benefit of like using it with a smart watch
00:19:47And a lot of times they you know, uh, this is an interesting tip that that aura told me but their user base is majority female now
00:19:54So they started out as a company where you know as a majority men and now they're majority women
00:20:00So I think a lot of women who just don't want to wear these bulky smart watches
00:20:05Who don't who want something a little more sleek a little more understated?
00:20:09They they're the ones who are really kind of pushing the smart ring as as a form factor forward
00:20:14Like if you look at smart ring ads on social media because lord knows I get served a zillion smart ring ads
00:20:21On my cursed algorithm. It's all women. It's all women really kind of pushing the aura ring forward
00:20:26so
00:20:27you know, I think in terms of people looking for that samsung's great, but
00:20:33You know, the ecosystem play is kind of their greatest strength and their greatest weakness at the same time
00:20:38It's very interesting to see how that'll play out
00:20:40Yeah, I I totally agree so that leaves us with two speaking of the aura ring we have the the ultra human ring air
00:20:47Stupid name and we have the aura ring three
00:20:50Uh, which one came in second place?
00:20:52It was the ultra human ring air. Is it because of the stupid name? No, it's not because it's a stupid name
00:20:58It's because it's like way too
00:21:00Focused on training
00:21:02And it's like whoopee that way is it? It's like super intense. Okay. It's very whoopee
00:21:07It's like if garmin made a smart ring I feel like it would be very close to the ultra human ring and that's going to
00:21:13Be a plus for some people. Yeah
00:21:15Uh, but for others, I think it's just kind of too cluttered. It's too much. It's
00:21:22I thought it was really interesting because they you know
00:21:24They'll tell you here's your caffeine window and here are the drinks that you can drink during the day. Here's like a little
00:21:30Like widget plugin that you can use if you want sun exposure and just very hyper focused on optimizing
00:21:38And uh, I believe there are a ton of people who would love that. I I enjoyed it quite a bit. I liked it a lot
00:21:46But uh, I also felt that it was just a little
00:21:50Hyper focused on that aspect of it versus the aura ring, which is a little more holistic
00:21:56so if you look at
00:21:58Something that's really specialized versus something that is for everybody. I think something that's for everybody generally wins out which
00:22:07At the end of the day, that's why I picked the aura ring over the ultra human ring air
00:22:14Even though that name is a mouthful. It was it was quite a nice ring. I really like it
00:22:18What pained me actually about those two being the winners is that those two are the ones that use docs for charging?
00:22:25And I really like a charging case for a smart ring so
00:22:29It pains me that we have to give doc supremacy
00:22:32But it just boils down to the ring itself of the two
00:22:35The only one of those two that i've had is the aura ring and the number of times
00:22:40That it's little doc has just slid off my bedside table and fallen onto the ground because it's not heavy enough drive me nuts
00:22:46It's it's not great. Um, but I agree the charging is like, you know do better everybody
00:22:51But that's not it's not the the beyond and all of this whole thing and the batteries on all of them last long enough
00:22:56That like it's it's mostly fine. So that means the aura ring three was the winner. Uh, yes
00:23:02Kind of a boring outcome. I'm not gonna lie to you. That's not boring
00:23:05It's like it it's it was like aura versus a bunch of
00:23:09Aura imitators and or I was rooting. I just like if you can just imagine me as tyra banks with six ringtangs
00:23:16I was rooting for all of you to dethrone aura to be quite frank. I did not want
00:23:21I did not want it to be the winner and there was there was a point where I was like
00:23:25Should I give it to the ultra human?
00:23:27And just really my instinct was that you know, it's a little too training focused if it had been a bit more holistic
00:23:34then I would have
00:23:36Happily given it to the ultra human ring air. It gets what uh, also the name is i'm telling you
00:23:41It's really tripping me out, but I will say one of the things that really struck me about this is I think
00:23:46This is where aura having been in this game
00:23:49This long has been really useful because a lot of the things you just said about ultra human were true of aura
00:23:55In previous generations that it was really good at generating a lot of numbers
00:23:59And not that good at making any sense of it or helping you in any
00:24:02Sort of meaningful way unless you like really wanted to be somebody who was super intense about your sleep and over time
00:24:08They've just gotten better at this like they they do more like wellness content. It's much more of like a
00:24:14Thoughtful thing for how to live your life as opposed to just like a sleep score
00:24:18And yeah, I think a that's to aura's credit and b that is just a thing that takes time
00:24:23and so aura has just been at this for so long now that I think it has
00:24:27figured out how to turn all of that data into something that makes sense to lots of people instead of just the like
00:24:33Hustle bro body hackers who are served by some of these other devices
00:24:37Yeah
00:24:37so like one point i'm gonna make is that we are now on an aura ring gen 4 or aura ring 4 they
00:24:43Removed the gen from the name and that drives my ocd crazy
00:24:46But so we're on the fourth generation of aura ring
00:24:50Most of these other rings are on their first maybe second or like and when we talk maybe second
00:24:56Literally just announced maybe second version of of the rings. They announced it after you said the first one. Yes
00:25:02They said we have another basically. Yeah
00:25:05honestly, yes, so um
00:25:08So, you know
00:25:10It's very hard to kind of discount experience in all of this
00:25:14Uh syncing was a big issue for some of these competitors
00:25:18They it took a while like again with the circular. I I rage quit several times because it just would not sync
00:25:25Aura good at firmware updates now good at firmware updates now
00:25:28It does not take a lot to sync uh an aura ring when you open the app. You're like, oh, it's shiny and polished
00:25:35There's no like finickiness with it all the other ones. There's there's a bit of
00:25:40There's a little bit of a lack of polish. It's very either basic and some people just won't care about that and that's fine
00:25:46I'm, just saying you can tell there's a difference when you open up the app and it's smooth and there's no jitteriness
00:25:53Or there's no crashing or you know, it doesn't take forever to find a connection with the ring
00:25:58Even though they're all just using bluetooth. It's not that hard. So, you know, there's just a
00:26:04A degree of polish there that I can very confidently say after spending several mornings
00:26:10Waiting for all of these things to sync
00:26:13Uh that I can say that the aura was the best at it. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense
00:26:17So the aura wins
00:26:20And then immediately just to flex on them
00:26:23They drop a new version
00:26:25The aura three won this this shootout and then they drop to the four what's new in the four?
00:26:31So the four goes to an all titanium design and
00:26:35For most people what you're going to notice is that the inside of the ring is flat
00:26:40there's no like sensor bump the the old ring had three little bumps on the inside and
00:26:45That was there for a reason the inside was epoxy
00:26:48And epoxy is a type of resin where it diffuses light in a specific way. It can get a little bit messy
00:26:55So you really want the sensors to have good skin contact in that case to kind of mitigate that kind of factor
00:27:02Also rings will rotate during the day
00:27:04Ideally, you want the sensors to be on the underside of your ring because that's going to get the best, uh signal pathway
00:27:10Uh to your blood and all that nonsense. Uh
00:27:14So what this new ring does is that it recesses?
00:27:18The sensors so that it's more comfortable, you know when i'm bloated
00:27:21This is a lot easier and less painful to take off than the the gen three was I do appreciate that
00:27:27Um, and they have a new sensor algorithm which you know
00:27:31It just basically more than doubles the number of signal pathways that can be used. So if the ring is
00:27:37Moving around on your finger
00:27:39it's not going to matter quite as much for accuracy and
00:27:43data collection so
00:27:46It's it's so minute. It's very cool in terms of like an engineering perspective
00:27:50Oh, it also improves battery life. So it's very cool
00:27:53From like a oh, that's really nerdy. That's awesome. I love this for the engineers, but in terms of actually wearing it
00:28:03Not a huge difference not a huge difference. Yeah, that's fair, but I think that there
00:28:08there was a bunch of software like between the beginning of the three and the beginning of the four also that is like
00:28:14So much the three and again
00:28:16I think this is very much to aura's credit like the three is a much better device than it was when it shipped
00:28:21Which is not always true
00:28:23uh of these devices and the four gets all of that and then a little more like the one I was excited about was the
00:28:29the sort of expanded activity tracking, uh, yes because for me
00:28:34my problem with the aura rings for a while and granted it's been
00:28:38I think the last one I wore was like the very beginning of the three. Uh
00:28:43Was that it eventually got to a point where it was only sort of sporadically good at everything except sleep
00:28:48Which it was very good at but I didn't care
00:28:51Like I I just I have gotten to a point where sleep tracking just does nothing for me
00:28:55I I know when I sleep well, and I know when I don't that's pretty much all I got
00:28:59uh
00:29:00but there was a lot of the like
00:29:01standalone activity tracking that it wasn't very good at even then and I think now it seems like the the
00:29:08Three and especially now the four
00:29:10Are are pretty good at that actually that like as activity trackers, they're pretty good
00:29:16They've expanded the automatic activity detection
00:29:18Which was a big thing because like on a smart watch it is so easy to manually start a activity
00:29:24On a smart ring you have to take out your phone. You have to open up the app
00:29:27You have to do the thing which is like non-starter. Honestly, it's it's a non-starter for a lot of people
00:29:32But now they've expanded it to 40 activities
00:29:35Uh, and it's not just the aura ring four that's going to get that they've really not gatekept any of these software updates
00:29:41Like it might that all goes back. Yeah, it goes it goes all back
00:29:44Um, so it might take a bit to roll out to the three
00:29:47But you know, I asked aura and nothing is really gatekept software wise
00:29:53It's just that this is like got the new sensing algorithm. So it's more accurate
00:29:57That's the only thing that's really true of the four versus the three
00:30:01So not a huge incentive to upgrade for people unless their batteries are shot
00:30:05um
00:30:06but the automatic activity detection is
00:30:09you know
00:30:10I
00:30:11Don't track my walks on smart watches for a number of reasons
00:30:15But you know, it was actually quite good at picking up when I had done the walks. It includes gps maps
00:30:22It includes the heart rate. So it's like oh my little activity was
00:30:27It was still counted
00:30:28And I didn't have to worry about duplicates because I do track all of my runs on a watch and all of my strength
00:30:33Sessions on a watch and those it just imported from uh, the health api. So it was very clean
00:30:40It was a very clean experience
00:30:42Uh, I have yet to get housework
00:30:45counted
00:30:45Uh in the ordering so apparently i'm not cleaning
00:30:48uh, you have to clean more aggressively with vigor. Yeah, so
00:30:53We'll we'll have to see I would love to hear from people if it's catching their basketball sessions or whatever
00:30:59But i'm boring I mostly run walk
00:31:02And do strength training so i'd love to hear from other people how that's worked out for them
00:31:07Well, I barely do that. So you've got me on that
00:31:09uh
00:31:10but the reason aura is very happy to bring all of these new features back to their old rings is
00:31:15Uh because of the way aura makes money which I would say
00:31:18Caused a great amount of consternation in our comments and in your email inbox after you published
00:31:24Uh the battle royale in particular
00:31:27Which is the subscription fee um
00:31:30I should probably just lay my cards on the table here and say I don't think this is a problem and a six dollar a
00:31:35Month subscription fee for something like this is fine
00:31:38Um, it's fine
00:31:39If you don't want to have it don't have it like this is not I think if you're if if apple started to suddenly
00:31:45Magically charge you another six dollars a month to have an iphone
00:31:47I would have an issue with it because that is like a thing. Everyone needs to live modern life
00:31:52A smart ring is not that thing
00:31:54Six dollars a month to make your
00:31:56350 ring actually continue to be very good for as long as aura has done it. I think it's fine
00:32:02I'm gonna get a lot of angry people. That's just where you are going to get a lot of angry people
00:32:07I have some sympathy because what basically, you know aura did a marquez
00:32:12where they had a
00:32:15That's what they did
00:32:16That's what they did with the gen 3 even though they did it before marquez did it marquez
00:32:21Just catching strays on the first cast jeez
00:32:23No, I I mean like I think this is just like kind of a really easy recent example to explain why people are mad
00:32:30Did aura release a wallpapers app? No
00:32:33So, you know the the gen 2 had no subscription they introduced it with the gen 3
00:32:38so you had a thing that did not have a subscription that you then added a subscription to
00:32:44And that is why aura has been catching strays and has made people super angry about this for so long
00:32:52That is fair for something that didn't used to cost money sucks. I do. I do agree with that. I'm sensitive
00:32:58so I I
00:32:59Fully understand where people are coming from
00:33:02As to like why they were mad that aura has a subscription to begin with
00:33:07on the other hand
00:33:09I have to say
00:33:10That one-time hardware sales does not keep the lights on for most companies
00:33:16And it really doesn't when you have a company like aura who is investing quite a lot into research and development and science
00:33:23That stuff is expensive to have peer-reviewed
00:33:28Studies on your device, you know, just submitting to a journal a peer-reviewed journal. That's like
00:33:34$25,000 that's a lot of money and that's why
00:33:38You see a lot of dubious claims in the health tech space
00:33:41About algorithms about all of this stuff. They are they don't have to do this
00:33:46Really? They don't have to test their algorithm against polysomnography, which is the clinical gold standard
00:33:51They don't have to do any of this research
00:33:54None of it is required to just sell you a consumer grade device. They're choosing to do it and it is
00:34:00expensive to do this so
00:34:03In that sense you are paying for that you are paying for the science you are paying for
00:34:08That degree of research. Is that a good trade?
00:34:11I mean oro oro has won our contest and you just gave it a nine like is that
00:34:15Is that the right trade-off for aura to be making over time?
00:34:18It is it is a gambit that they are taking. I don't know if it's the right one
00:34:23They are betting that people are willing to pay for the best and so long as they are the best
00:34:29Okay. Sure go for it
00:34:31Uh, I do think it is worth noting that all of their competitors make a very big point about not having a subscription
00:34:38Right and samsung can afford to do that. Samsung is big. They have other revenue streams. They don't need
00:34:45to uh
00:34:46Charge a subscription for the galaxy ring, which is pricey. Yeah, because you have to spend two thousand dollars on a phone to get there
00:34:53Yeah to get everything you're gonna have to spend on all that hardware for some people
00:34:57They're not gonna think too hard about that because they already have it or whatnot etc. Etc. Sure. Love that. Um
00:35:04But for some of the other competitors like ringcon, which we completely glossed over because it's fine
00:35:09You know, it's it's they can undercut aura in terms of price and they can deliver
00:35:15a decent fitness tracking experience and
00:35:19Some people are just going to be super happy with that and they're going to be fine with that and that's that's great
00:35:23I just think if you want a decent
00:35:25Fitness tracking experience download an app on your phone. Like I I mean that i'm sort of serious, right? Like
00:35:32You you would be surprised not you v but most people I think would be surprised
00:35:37At the sophistication that you can get by downloading an app on your phone and then holding your phone in your hand. It's not
00:35:44remotely within range of these dedicated devices, but like if you just want a thing that does a
00:35:49Relative job of counting your steps and telling you how you slept. Those are apps on your phone. They exist download those things
00:35:55I think the people who want this dedicated hardware
00:35:59mostly want the best things and should and this is like
00:36:03It's it's why
00:36:04Ultra human and whoop and some of these companies are going so hard
00:36:07It's why garmin continues to go as hard as it does because these are this is the customer and I think
00:36:13To some extent the thing that apple did with smart watches was like pull that down towards
00:36:19everyday people in a way nobody had before
00:36:21And and had like taught google and samsung in a lot of ways how to make watches that appeal to regular people
00:36:26but also do some of those other things and
00:36:28Rings for me are still very much in the like unless you're serious about this. You don't even consider buying one face
00:36:35yeah, they're just very
00:36:37I really feel like it appeals the most actually to
00:36:41Wellness influencers and like that type of person who just does not want a bulky smart watch. They don't want smart there
00:36:49you know
00:36:50it's definitely not the average broadcast listener, but there I have been to parties where this very
00:36:56Well dressed well-heeled woman comes up to me and she's like, oh I see you have an aura ring
00:37:01I love my aura ring because I want to wear this designer watch. That is not a smart watch
00:37:06I don't want an apple watch. I don't want this and i've just been sitting there going like oh
00:37:11Okay. Yeah
00:37:13How how much is that air one salad that you're eating?
00:37:15Like, you know, I buy that entirely right like that and I think that is a really good case for smart rings
00:37:21But I think for most people if you don't want to wear a smart watch
00:37:25And you don't care deeply about the fitness side of things
00:37:29Like my point is there's no use for a casual smart ring user at this moment for most things for most things
00:37:35It's it's truly just people who do not care about like it's gonna seem foreign to techies. I think but they're just truly
00:37:43normal people who do not care about anything a smart watch has to offer because if we
00:37:48Compare a smart ring and a smart watch which are generally similarly priced value for value
00:37:53the smart watch is gonna give you more of everything and is
00:37:58In my opinion a kind of a better value proposition for a lot of people
00:38:03but there are just people who do not care about that and it's it's why I get so many people just
00:38:09Messaging me and dming me and being like I don't understand the whole point of a smart ring and I get it
00:38:14I get what they're where they're coming from
00:38:15But i've also talked to these other people who just are like I don't get the point of a smart watch
00:38:21so it's you're just serving two very different audiences in in that respect and
00:38:27You know, it's the kim kardashians who isn't or a ring user
00:38:30It is b. Gwyneth paltrow's the jennifer aniston's all of these people who are just
00:38:36It's a more discreet thing so you're really just paying for the discretion you're paying for the form factor
00:38:42um
00:38:43and we'll have to see because
00:38:46the the thing about other companies
00:38:49And if apple comes out with a smart ring, I think or is cooked. I think they are potentially cooked
00:38:55Maybe not right away. But you know because the first apple watch wasn't anything super
00:39:00Amazing. It was just oh apple's here. But like if apple was like, oh the apple ring for
00:39:07Uh-oh, and I mean if apple could take
00:39:10The decade of stuff that has learned about health and fitness and just pull it
00:39:14Out of the watch and into this different form factor
00:39:16Like I think there's reason to believe that thing could get much better much faster
00:39:21much better much faster and you know, if they kind of take some of what samsung's doing and pull it into the
00:39:27Ecosystem. Oh all of a sudden we got the smart part of the smart ring because right now
00:39:32We're just having a basic fitness tracker in a different form factor
00:39:36That is slightly more comfortable for people to wear especially for this one specific use case
00:39:41Which is sleep tracking and aura does that really well, but aura doesn't make phones or it doesn't
00:39:47It's it's a very like one trick pony kind of situation and they have to partner with other companies
00:39:52In order to kind of expand beyond
00:39:55That so
00:40:00Is this subscription plan gonna play out long term I say in my review i'm not sure
00:40:05As long as they're the best at this niche category. Yeah. Sure. I think it could it could
00:40:11Work for them, but other people are coming
00:40:14I think it's very telling that samsung came out and knocked it out of the park with the hardware in its first go
00:40:21The software is what needs work with samsung and you know
00:40:24Not gatekeeping it to very expensive phones and watches to get the best out of it
00:40:29Which to be clear is exactly what apple would and will do if it ever launches this one. Yeah, but you know
00:40:35The apple fans, they're really invested. I have already. Yeah, they got the money
00:40:40I have already heard from readers who are like if apple came out with the smart ring
00:40:44I would get it but I can't be bothered with this or a ring in its subscription and i'm like duly noted duly noted
00:40:50It's good to be apple. It really really really good to be apple. Yeah. All right v we gotta go. Thank you so much
00:40:57Here's hoping you don't have to do this again next year because apple launches a ring
00:41:00But also if you do we'll be back. I probably will I already have a straggler smart ring that I have to review
00:41:06So we'll see
00:41:08All right. Well, we'll see you for the next one
00:41:11All right. Thanks
00:41:12All right
00:41:13We gotta take a break and then we're gonna come back and we're gonna talk about the new hearing health features on the airpods
00:41:17Pro 2 we'll be right back
00:41:21So
00:41:25All right, we're back so when apple announced all of its new stuff in september
00:41:31One of the biggest announcements was about the airpods pro 2, but it wasn't new
00:41:37Headphones, it was just a software update for the headphones that brought among other things some new hearing health features
00:41:44And particularly an hearing aid mode that could actually be a really big deal for people with hearing loss
00:41:50We didn't get to try it at first, but chris welch has gotten to try the new features now. They're coming out soon
00:41:57I think there's something very exciting going on here
00:41:59If all of this actually works the way that apple claims that it does chris luckily knows the answer. Let's get into it
00:42:05Chris welch welcome back. Hello. It's a pleasure to be here as always
00:42:09This is we've gotten to do this so much recently. It's just it's like headphone season in a truly crazy way right now
00:42:15It is now we're here for a headphone reason, but something a bit different than usual
00:42:20That's true. It's like headphones adjacent. I would say uh, so
00:42:24This is a strange way to ask an initial question
00:42:27But what exactly have you been testing on the airpods?
00:42:30Uh, so i've been testing a suite of new hearing health features for the airpods pro
00:42:35Apple announced these at their event a few months ago
00:42:38And now they're rolling out with ios 18.1
00:42:42And some new firmware for the earbuds the week of october 28th
00:42:45And so everyone will be able to use their airpods as hearing protection as hearing aids, uh, and there'll be there's hearing tests
00:42:53You can test, uh your hearing because no one ever goes to the hearing doctor. Uh, I haven't been in years
00:42:59Yeah, so there's a lot to cover. Yeah, I am going to ask you to reveal some personal information
00:43:04I hope you're ready for that. I'm ready. But the reason I asked that question that way is it seems like
00:43:10My initial impression of this was that there was going to be like a hearing aid mode
00:43:14On the airpods, right that you would like go into settings and turn it on and then it would do a bunch of different stuff
00:43:19Or it would be sort of an accessibility feature. Yeah, and what it actually seems like is apple has baked
00:43:24this kind of
00:43:26Hearing awareness both of your own hearing end of the world into
00:43:30Kind of how the whole thing works like it's much more holistic than I expected
00:43:35Has that been has that been your impression too?
00:43:37Mostly, I mean there is a hearing aid mode like that is a separate mode that you turn on or off
00:43:40but the rest of like hearing protection is
00:43:42Always on by default in all modes now. Uh, so like it was there before like they had I think it was called loud noise reduction
00:43:47Uh, but this is much broader
00:43:48It's like people like wear their airpods to concerts before and apple's never really like said sure that's great
00:43:52They didn't tell you not to but they you know, weren't like thrilled about it
00:43:56But now you actually can use your airpods at concerts and like they've tuned the eq
00:44:00so you hear stuff better and
00:44:02So that's there and that's gonna be a huge deal for a lot of people who like don't wear earplugs at concerts
00:44:07Please wear earplugs at concerts
00:44:09Uh
00:44:10And so that's there. Yeah, it's like a lot of it just on by default and it's just gonna be
00:44:15There from now on. Okay. So the very beginning of this process is you take the hearing test, right?
00:44:19That's the like the first thing that happens. Yeah, tell me about this hearing test. Okay
00:44:23uh, yeah, it was very like emotional very nerve-wracking because I haven't
00:44:27Seen the audiologist since probably 2018, uh pre-covid easily
00:44:31So it's been a long long time and like I don't listen to like metal
00:44:34I like sad bastard singer-songwriters, you know that kind of genre
00:44:37So like thankfully i'm sure that saved me a bit over the years
00:44:39but like I grew up with like a sony discman at my hip and like then so many ipods and iphones and so like
00:44:44I was nervous taking it and so it's like five minutes and you hear like a series of beeps
00:44:48These three tone beeps just beep beep beep beep beep and like all sorts of frequencies
00:44:53And it lasts about five minutes. Uh first you do your left ear
00:44:57Then your right ear
00:44:59And the test is different for each like you hear tones like different times
00:45:03for both ears, so it's
00:45:04so you can't game it or like
00:45:06that kind of thing, um
00:45:08but yeah, it's just very intense like I had several people here at the office take it and they're all like
00:45:13Yeah, it's just very
00:45:14You know, it's a lot. Uh
00:45:16Also like hearing loss is super common like 1.5 billion people in the world have some level of hearing loss
00:45:22And so like it's nothing to be ashamed of or like stigmatized
00:45:24And so just you know part of life but like taking that test for the first time is definitely like a thing
00:45:29So the test is like it plays these tones and it's i'm sort of imagining the the thing
00:45:35That you do i've done this once that I can think of where you actually sit in a doctor's office with a giant pair of
00:45:40Headphones and they're like raise your hand when you hear the tone
00:45:44Uh raise the the hand on the side that it's on
00:45:46It's kind of it sounds like it's sort of a smartphoneized version of tap the screen whenever you hear a tone essentially
00:45:51Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so you tap the screen and like some noises are like super faint
00:45:54So you've got to like pay super close attention
00:45:55That's like that thing where like you think you heard something, but you're not sure
00:45:59They've like accounted for all that like the testing. Uh, and so yeah, it takes about five minutes
00:46:04It's a long five minutes and then you get your results charted out and like there are five tiers of hearing loss
00:46:09There's little to know which I fell in somehow, which is amazing to me. Yeah. Thank you
00:46:13uh, there's
00:46:14Moderate sorry, there's mild moderate
00:46:17Severe and profound is the last one and so those are the five levels
00:46:22And so the hearing aid functionality is for anyone who has mild to moderate hearing loss. So if you like
00:46:26More than that, then you're still gonna have to go see like a professional and get like that tier of hearing aid versus this
00:46:32Uh, but it's still like a big deal for so many people who
00:46:36Don't want to spend thousands of dollars. Uh, but yeah, the test itself is it's kind of fun
00:46:41I am sort of terrified just at the prospect thinking about this now because i'm sort of in the position that you are and
00:46:46I think about this with
00:46:47Uh vision too like i've I have 20 20 vision. Uh, I don't wear glasses. I'm very proud of that fact
00:46:52I am 100 sure
00:46:54That if I go to an eye doctor, they are going to make me wear glasses
00:46:57And so i'm never going to do it. I don't even have problems with my vision
00:47:00It's just one of those things that like I I bet it could be better and I don't even know
00:47:04But the prospect of that scares me and I think what's interesting about hearing is that we all sort of understand
00:47:11the massive scale of vision issues, right that like
00:47:15we understand prescription levels and they go all the way up and down and you can you can go all the way from like
00:47:20Barely needing glasses to being totally blind like yeah that spectrum. We all understand
00:47:24We don't talk about that with hearing at all. And I think
00:47:27there is like
00:47:28I don't know decades at this point of people
00:47:31Warning you about wearing headphones and listening to music too loud and I can still hear my parents being like turn the music down
00:47:38You're gonna you're gonna go deaf. Uh
00:47:40But I don't think i've ever had someone
00:47:42Quantify my hearing for me. So I am curious like what was that?
00:47:46What does it feel like when you you take the test it process and as you get the rd audiogram, uh being like
00:47:52You're mostly okay, like what is that?
00:47:55Strangely like gratifying feeling very strange and like for some reason like my left ear is a bit worse off than my right
00:48:01So that had me wondering like we're in life
00:48:02Like there's my left you're exposed to like much more sound than my right and like I couldn't pinpoint
00:48:06Like any phase of life or that would have been the case, but it's driving with the window
00:48:10That's what it is. It's just the wind coming. Very well be crushing your ears. Yeah
00:48:14Yeah, so that was my main takeaway, uh
00:48:16But I could see this going like viral on tiktok and like having like a moment which would be good for like awareness
00:48:20I think you know, it is like private obviously it's health information
00:48:22So not everyone is going to be comfortable sharing
00:48:24but I think
00:48:25you know, it could have a moment on like social media of just people like raising awareness and sharing their results and
00:48:30You know, i'm sure like the ipod generation is going to have a reckoning of some sort. Uh, but yeah, it's gonna be something
00:48:36Okay. So just to go back to one of the things you said a minute ago the the there are the five different
00:48:41Scales of hearing loss and you said the airpods are only designed for the first three
00:48:47Basically, right little to no mild and moderate like that's and for the rest that is you require
00:48:53Something different still have to see a doctor and you have like a professional hearing aid equipped
00:48:58Yeah, this is like more this is like apple's counters like all the all these new like over-the-counter hearing aids
00:49:02This is their take on that
00:49:03and so yeah, it's gonna be like a super super powerful thing like we talk about like
00:49:07Ecosystem lock-in and like this is like a whole new whole new level of that if you think about like your hearing aid is
00:49:12like an apple device now and so like
00:49:14What are the odds you're ever gonna like leave the iphone at that point?
00:49:18Like on the whole I think it's a very good thing
00:49:20I think there are some concerns about like smaller companies
00:49:22like why would you bother making your own hearing aid and
00:49:24Trying to compete against apple like the biggest tech company in the world like once they come into this space
00:49:29But on the whole people are going to save a ton of money, which is I think a huge deal totally
00:49:33So once it's set up and once it's tuned to you specifically
00:49:37What does it do like it? It's it's easy to say, you know
00:49:41It just it makes everything louder so that you can hear it
00:49:43But I have to imagine it's more complicated than that like what are what are the actual features inside of this hearing aid stuff?
00:49:49Uh, you can tune like how loud it is. You can tune like how
00:49:52Sharp the sound is and how crisp like there are a lot of customization options once you actually have your results
00:49:56And so like that's important if you want to make it sound
00:49:59right, uh
00:50:00And uh, yeah, so apple says it takes like a few days to adjust how it sounds like for me
00:50:04I barely did anything because I have little to no hearing loss
00:50:06So I didn't really notice much of anything but they say like that can still help people who like need certain frequencies boosted
00:50:11Um, and so I just haven't noticed it myself, but uh, but it's there if you want it
00:50:15Uh battery life is about six hours with the hearing aid mode turned on which is about the same as the air pods itself
00:50:20So yeah, that's pretty nice
00:50:22And uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know not sure what else there is to say about like i haven't tried it myself
00:50:27Uh, i'm sure there are going to be like a deep dives about like how well it works versus like over-the-counter options
00:50:31Was there a little part of you as a reviewer who wished that I wish I didn't have worse ears
00:50:36So I can actually do this to myself. Yeah in some way, uh, but for now, i'm just glad that I should concerts and still
00:50:41uh still have mostly uh
00:50:43Good hearing intact. Yeah, I think it nets out it nets out. Okay
00:50:46Yeah, uh, the concerts one I think is is interesting because there do seem to be
00:50:50sort of two sides of
00:50:52What a device like this does to your your hearing right on the one hand it's enhanced things you want to hear and I think
00:50:58to me the the best
00:51:00Sort of existing thing i've heard a bunch of people mention is like the the voice isolation feature that you can get on calls
00:51:05and stuff that it's just that's a that's a certain bit of processing just designed to make it easier to hear the thing that you
00:51:10Want to hear and it's like take that
00:51:13idea
00:51:14and sort of expand it across all the audio on your phone and that is
00:51:18One version of what it's trying to do. Does that does that seem about right to you having used it now?
00:51:22Yeah, okay
00:51:23But then the flip side is all the all the hearing protection stuff, which is like these things are
00:51:27Designed to protect your ears from getting worse. Uh, and that strikes me as something that that
00:51:33May actually be just as interesting to just as many people even people like you who aren't photographing concerts all the time, right?
00:51:40I I realized in just reading about this that I have no idea how that would
00:51:44Work, like what what is what is it doing in the hearing protection mode?
00:51:48Uh, just avoids loud sounds beyond like a certain threshold
00:51:51I think i'm not sure what the number is offhand
00:51:53But like once things are like over that level it'll just kind of like down
00:51:56You know just bring things back to a safer level
00:51:58And so that works in like all modes like noise cancellation mode transparency mode and also
00:52:03The adaptive audio mode and so like each of those like you'll hear
00:52:07Like certain amounts of like a concert like just like noise cancellation mode
00:52:10You're still not going to hear like much of anything. So just still trying to like cancel out everything
00:52:13It's like that's not the most enjoyable concert experience. I would say
00:52:17Uh, but you can use like transparency mode and hear pretty much everything
00:52:19It's still going to be fairly loud in your ears
00:52:21but it's going to be like a much safer level of loudness versus if you didn't have them in at all and so
00:52:25That makes all the difference got it. So it's it's basically there to just say
00:52:30Uh, it is going to sort of brutally suppress the worst noises
00:52:34no matter the cost like forget the smoothing it out trying to make it sound natural thing like we are going to just
00:52:40Just demolish any of these really loud damaging sounds
00:52:44I mean, it's tuned to make some
00:52:46Things sound like natural and crisp and like detailed
00:52:48it's like you don't lose much by having it on like I was at this open mic night a few nights ago and
00:52:52Didn't feel like I was like really missing out much in terms like frequency range or anything like that
00:52:56So like I was impressed. I haven't used it like a big arena show yet
00:52:58hopefully this weekend i'll get a chance to do that, uh, but
00:53:02yeah, no, it's like a it's just
00:53:04Strange to have them in all the time now like for these tests that i've been doing. I think that's like a whole different
00:53:09Thing to talk about like people are going to be wearing air pods
00:53:12All the time now, which is kind of unusual versus where we've been before. I wonder about that though. I mean, I and i'm i'm
00:53:18I'm still sort of struck by you just saying so casually lots of people wear air pods at concerts and like
00:53:24At first I was just like oh, yeah, sure. Of course. I'm like wait, why on earth would you wear air pods at concert?
00:53:29uh
00:53:30but
00:53:31To some extent I think we have really normalized the idea of wearing air pods all the time
00:53:36Yeah, I think we you can argue about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think
00:53:40By and large it's actually it actually sucks because like the social cues are a problem like right if people think it's rude
00:53:46but now you really can't have that like assumption like usually when I have my air pods and people probably assume like I have like
00:53:50Half they have like half my attention
00:53:52Whereas now like someone could be using it as a hearing aid and like you could have their full attention
00:53:55And so it's not you can't just assume like what someone is using them for I think that's going to be the big like sea
00:53:59Change here totally. So yeah
00:54:01What how how do you see that?
00:54:03Playing out like is this just going to push the i'm wearing headphones from the minute I wake up till the minute I go to
00:54:07sleep
00:54:08Thing to kind of the nth degree forever like for me. It's always
00:54:13What do I do when i'm wearing headphones and I walk into starbucks right and I think about like if i'm wearing
00:54:19Over the ear headphones. This is the thing i've thought about too much if i'm wearing over the ear headphones
00:54:23I will take them off around my neck because i'm like you should assume i'm wearing noise cancelling headphones and legitimately cannot hear you
00:54:29If i'm wearing
00:54:30Airpods, i'll usually just take one out. Okay, and sometimes even like take one out
00:54:37While the person is looking at me as a way of being like hello. I have I am now paying attention to you
00:54:43But again, like you're saying there are now going to people who have an actual medical purpose to be wearing these things in order
00:54:48To be able to hear people better, right? And if i'm the person behind the counter at starbucks
00:54:53That's just it's going to be tricky to figure out what to do about that
00:54:58but it also just seems like maybe the only correct assumption is just going to be just
00:55:02Talk to the people and hope to god. They're not playing really loud music and I don't know. Yeah
00:55:06Yeah, I think it's going to take time
00:55:08Obviously, uh, I think it's going to like just kind of like have that
00:55:12Thought of like people are being rude or like trying to ignore you kind of fade away
00:55:14I mean that'll still be the case in certain like I put my airpods in to avoid people at times like
00:55:19That's going to keep going i'm sure but like there's like that assumption of like why someone has their ear pod
00:55:23Airpods and or earbuds in it's gonna have to change over time. It's gonna be a while
00:55:26I think and I think like this is gonna put a lot of pressure on
00:55:29Samsung and google google it's like we're all their own like versions of these features and like once that happens then you know
00:55:34And then it's really on and so yeah
00:55:37But yeah, it's been like a surreal experience like the test is very intense
00:55:40Hearing protection stuff is a lot of fun
00:55:42It's good
00:55:42I think for everybody because you don't realize like how loud daily life is like i'm down in the subway hearing like screeching trains go
00:55:48by sometimes and i'm just like
00:55:49Covering my ears when I have nothing else available to me. So stuff like that is yeah
00:55:54You never go back
00:55:55Once you wear something that is is really good at doing that kind of work like it it ruins a lot of things for you
00:56:02Uh, but to that point actually i'm curious
00:56:04how you're feeling as a as a headphone guy about all of this because the I think
00:56:10The the stuff that apple is doing for hearing health. I think is like unequivocally a good thing, right?
00:56:14The question is how well it works and for how many people?
00:56:18And and that's going to be tricky because people are complicated and ears are different and everybody's hearing is different
00:56:22but whatever I think that is mostly
00:56:25Agreed upon a good thing to be working on
00:56:28But we're also in this phase and I think apple is out in front of this of
00:56:33trying to
00:56:34perfect every sound in every instance all the time, right and like
00:56:38The the airpods pro 2 are probably the best example of this, right? There's the there's a gaming mode
00:56:44There's a there's stuff dedicated to just siri working. Well, there's voice isolation spatial audio head tracking
00:56:50Yeah, there's spatial audio head tracking like god help us if the head nod thing ever starts to take off like that
00:56:57that sounds like a nightmare, but I just think we're headed to this place where
00:57:00step one is like build a nice pair of headphones and then step two is like
00:57:05try and
00:57:07Process it perfectly for every imaginable situation
00:57:11And I just wonder if that's the right road to be going down with all of this stuff. Like we're headed towards such a weird
00:57:18Everything is ar audio
00:57:20Universe and what does that make you feel as a as a music guy?
00:57:24I think I feel much better about like these use cases versus like the other stuff we've seen previously
00:57:28Like we've made a lot of noise about like, you know
00:57:30Giving up the headphone jack and like the phone you buy like decides what earbuds you get basically and like that's where we're at now
00:57:36So to see like health benefits like that's where i'm like, okay
00:57:38This is the payoff to like where we've been going for all these years and that's great
00:57:42Like although like head nods and like those gimmicks or you know, they are what they are
00:57:45You know people are going to use them or they won't but like this is like the argument where it's like, okay
00:57:49This is worth like giving up the headphone jack going wireless only because these are not like just earbuds anymore, obviously
00:57:55And so that's good. I think for the whole industry
00:57:58uh, but as far as like, you know, just music is still there, you know, I love my music I can just settle in and
00:58:03You know and just vibe and that's not gonna change anytime soon
00:58:06Uh, but they do do so much more now. And so yeah, it's just a lot to think about to process and so
00:58:12This is like a huge moment obviously, but we're gonna see the same from samsung and and those companies i'm sure it's like
00:58:17How could they not you know try and copy this it does seem like pretty clearly the next thing for all of these companies
00:58:23Yeah, um, and again, I think it's mostly a good thing and I do think one thing it seems apple has done
00:58:28Well, and I want to hear more about your experience of this is kind of after that initial setup
00:58:32It doesn't seem like you have to do all that much like you you take the test and it learns about your ears
00:58:38and yeah, I expected there to be
00:58:40Tons of you know buttons and knobs and you're constantly having to going in and and like the the voice
00:58:44Isolation is another one for me. It has always driven me crazy that that's not just on like
00:58:48That's it just makes your calls sound better. Just turn the thing on. I don't understand what the problem is
00:58:53Yeah, uh, but apple has always sort of hidden it underneath a setting and
00:58:57My assumption would be that a lot of this would be hidden underneath the setting but it sounds increasingly like
00:59:02It's not and that once you take the test and it understands your ears. It just kind of happens. Yeah
00:59:07Yeah, that's pretty true
00:59:08So like there's the hearing aid mode
00:59:10There's also this media assist half of it to where it tunes like your music and your phone calls and videos
00:59:15Based off like all your data from your hearing test. So all those things sound clear as well. So that's nice
00:59:20Uh, so yeah, it's like a very comprehensive
00:59:22All-encompassing feature that's just kind of there
00:59:25Just always there in the background just working
00:59:27And so yeah, there's not much to do like you can turn it all some of it off
00:59:31Hearing aid obviously can turn on or off
00:59:33Like the hearing protection is just there which should be the case obviously
00:59:37uh
00:59:38and so yeah
00:59:38There's not much to like do or tinker whether I get wrong or mess up yourself, which I think is super important
00:59:42especially because like
00:59:43You know
00:59:43They're going to be older people using these features who like don't want to like dig through settings when you used to
00:59:47You know tinker with stuff and so that's a big deal
00:59:50Yeah, I don't know. It's just there. It's simple. You know, it is very apple. We say that a lot. It just works
00:59:54This mostly has just worked. Uh, i'm very curious to see like how it compares like other options on the market
00:59:59Like people's deep dives and like the hearing aid functionality and and all that. Yeah
01:00:03What do you have you heard anything from the the kind of hearing aid community so far not much?
01:00:08I've been trying to chat folks up, but I guess
01:00:10You know, they're a busy bunch these audiologists. So
01:00:13So hopefully pretty soon i'll be able to stay on somebody and get some context
01:00:16But it seems like people are pretty optimistic and hopeful that this is going to be at least
01:00:19You know push the whole industry forward towards like making all this, you know more affordable
01:00:23And that whole uh trend so yeah, I mean we've been waiting for a few years now
01:00:28Since that bill passed
01:00:31for this
01:00:32kind of over the counter hearing aid revolution that we were expecting and I think
01:00:36Years ago people were expecting
01:00:38Ultimately this right like which I think is actually very cool apple sort of delivered the thing
01:00:43People have been asking for which is give me something that looks like a pair of headphones that doesn't scream
01:00:48medical device
01:00:49but gives me some of the help that I need and I think
01:00:53I'm going to be fascinated to see how apple communicates that line between here is who they're for and here is who they're not
01:00:59uh that like
01:01:01Even where you fall on the audiogram test if it's going to like throw up a thing
01:01:05That's like go see a doctor immediately about your hearing or if it's just more gentle about it
01:01:10Like we can help but only so much. It's pretty gentle in my experience. Like the test is very like low stress
01:01:15It's like this is all normal hearing loss is normal. These are your results
01:01:19Everything's fine, but we did call 9-1-1 on your behalf just now talk to a doctor if you have any questions. Yeah
01:01:25but and it makes me wonder if
01:01:27this is going to be the beginning of that movement that we've been seeing because I think
01:01:33there is
01:01:34one version of the outcome here that says apple is actually way ahead of some of these other companies and health stuff and has
01:01:39been working on this a lot longer and has a lot more the expertise and a lot more the
01:01:43You know corporate lock-in to make some of this stuff work. And I think there's truth to some of that
01:01:47but also
01:01:48Google and samsung ought to be able to do this kind of thing pretty well pretty quickly. Yeah
01:01:56Is there any reason you think apple might have some insurmountable lead here?
01:01:59Or is this just going to become the next feature of of all of these headphones?
01:02:03I think it'll be the next feature in time
01:02:04I think apple got a head start just because they've like focused on this
01:02:06Vertical integration of like all their hardware for so so long that like they've had to jump on like these features
01:02:12But i'm sure in time like samsung and google
01:02:13i'm, not sure how like other companies like get involved like sennheiser and sony like what are they gonna do like being
01:02:19Just like third-party sony has something like over-the-counter hearing aids
01:02:21but like that's not quite the same thing as like
01:02:23This thing that's tied to your phone like knows what you're listening to and like how to
01:02:27Make that sound better at all times. Um
01:02:30So it's curious like i'm curious if apple's gonna like run ads about these features like on tv
01:02:33Like that'll be fascinating, but I think there's just gonna be like a big push of like awareness
01:02:38hearing health because let's you know,
01:02:40Very easy to take for granted until you know, you start losing some of it over time. Uh,
01:02:46Thankfully i'm still in good shape. I've got random bouts of tinnitus tinnitus
01:02:50However, that's pronounced random bouts of that like once or twice a month where I hear just a little like
01:02:54Ringing in my ears, but if that's the worst that i've had
01:02:57Through 40 years so far then i'll i'll take that. Yeah, it's not so bad
01:03:01You gotta you just print out and frame the audiogram results there. That's pretty good. Yeah
01:03:05Uh before I let you go anything else in the the software update here, I mean apple
01:03:11Basically announced these things like they were a brand new product
01:03:15Yeah, it's just being a software update to a set of existing headphones. You've been using the software update for a while now
01:03:21Anything else to report?
01:03:23I mean, that's the reason that I would update to ios 18.1, you know
01:03:27If you don't care about all the ai stuff and apple intelligence, uh, this is a great reason to like get all these new features
01:03:32You can't do it on ios 18.0 or like any previous version
01:03:35So you have to update if you want all these airpods features
01:03:37So if you don't care about the ai stuff, which I do like the summarized notifications on ios 18.1, they're they're pretty handy
01:03:43Um, but as far as like other like airpods stuff, you know, the head nods are there. They work fairly well
01:03:48Do you use them? Be honest. I've tried them. I turn them off pretty quickly. They worked, you know
01:03:52i'm sure i'm sure there are people who love like all these like very niche features and so, you know
01:03:56People like love having siri like read their notifications out loud. I would never want that to
01:04:00To be my situation. No to me. It's just the the
01:04:04Penalty for having the nod and head shake on and get it wrong
01:04:09Is that like I answer a phone call that I don't want to in the wrong that you very clearly like shook your head
01:04:14Vigorously not to answer. Yeah, exactly like
01:04:17That is uh, I know enough about this technology to know that that stuff is imperfect and just the penalty for being wrong once
01:04:24Terrifies me like even now when i'm in the car or whatever and it's like so-and-so is calling
01:04:28Would you like to answer I I have I never have said the word no more clearly than I do in those moments
01:04:34Yeah, uh, and still i'm afraid that something is going to go wrong. So I think making that stuff even
01:04:40Simpler seems like a good idea. But also I feel like raises the stakes for what could go wrong. Uh,
01:04:46So we'll we'll we'll see how all of that turns out
01:04:49But I I do think there is probably a long road of interesting stuff to do there
01:04:54I'm, just not convinced. It's yes and no, right? Yeah, there's some way to like
01:04:58Uh do like head nods and ar i'm sure you know
01:05:00They're all these rumors of airpods with cameras on them, which seems so bizarre to me
01:05:04But i'm sure there's a purpose for that. I just want to be able to like
01:05:08Quickly do a double shake of my head to skip songs. It's just like no no, not this one
01:05:12Go to the next one. Yeah, exactly or just like make it like a face and it just skips
01:05:17Like add immediately add that to my not interested list on spotify and go to the next one. That's all I want exactly
01:05:24Uh, all right, chris, thank you as always. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thank you david
01:05:29All right
01:05:29We gotta take one more break and then we're gonna come back and do one of my favorite vergecast hotline questions in a while
01:05:35We'll be right back
01:05:44All right, we're back let's get to the hotline as always the number is 866 verge 1-1 the email is vergecasts at the verge.com
01:05:51We love all of your questions and we try to answer at least one on the show every week
01:05:55I've been promising a full hotline episode for a while and that is coming
01:06:00We just there's too much going on if they could just stop with the news for a minute
01:06:04I'd love to do a hotline episode, but I think that's coming. I'm very excited about it
01:06:07So get all your questions in all of your weird tech mysteries all the things you want us to just ruminate endlessly on
01:06:13And we'll get to them all this week. We have a very fun question about video games
01:06:18Oh
01:06:19Hey vergecast. My name is brian. I'm in north carolina nearish epic and limited run games for context
01:06:25I've had this question ever since you had riley tested on the show about delta and emulation on ios
01:06:31It came up again at the tail end of your origins of podcasting episode
01:06:35Apple has a gaming problem
01:06:37Why don't they just buy nintendo?
01:06:39I know they have enough liquid capital sitting around that they could purchase the entirety of that company like you or I could go buy
01:06:45a switch
01:06:47So what's stopping them?
01:06:48Is it lena con? Does that matter if the company isn't american?
01:06:53Is it that they don't actually care about games?
01:06:56Would nintendo say no to a scrooge mcduck sized pile of apple cash?
01:07:02So that's my question
01:07:03Why doesn't apple solve its problem with gaming by eating nintendo?
01:07:07What stops it from doing that and just for fun? What would the world look like if it did?
01:07:12Thanks for talking about this. I've been sitting with this in my head for literal months
01:07:17And i'm more than happy for it to sit in your heads instead
01:07:20I need to go do other things now. Thanks. Bye
01:07:22All right. I have brought the verges foremost nintendo expert andrew webster here to help me with this andrew. Hello. Hello
01:07:29So I caught you in the middle of writing a piece
01:07:31uh
01:07:32Would you just briefly describe the piece that you've you're working on because I think it's a useful setup for what we're doing here
01:07:37oh, well now I have to write it but the uh,
01:07:40The working headline is I have given up on guessing what nintendo is going to do
01:07:45Which is a conclusion i've come to after covering them for like, I don't know 15 years or so
01:07:51so
01:07:52I want to separate this into two pieces. There is the why does an apple buy a nintendo piece of it?
01:07:56and there is the uh, what would the world look like if nintendo were owned by apple and I feel like
01:08:03in the first case
01:08:05The answer seems very straightforward, which is that anyone would seems like they would want to buy nintendo, right? Like
01:08:11everyone
01:08:12Given the opportunity would including apple I assume would leap to buy nintendo. Do you think that's true?
01:08:18Yeah, I think what's stopping them is obviously nintendo
01:08:22Nintendo has scrooge mcduck piles already and they just keep getting
01:08:27uh more and more, um
01:08:30So there's not really any reason for them to sell and I do think that that point about um,
01:08:36Apple not caring about gaming is very true. I'm like in addition to being the verge's foremost nintendo expert
01:08:42I'm also our only apple arcade expert and it is a great service. Yeah, that is just nobody knows about um,
01:08:50because apple does not care and I also don't think apple thinks it has a gaming problem because
01:08:56it
01:08:57Makes a lot of money from games
01:09:00And not the kind of games that nintendo makes
01:09:03Yeah, I think the question of like would apple be interested in making
01:09:08The next zelda game is actually really interesting. I think apple is very happy
01:09:13Running a store in which it gets cuts of the work that other people do
01:09:17And if we've learned one thing about the gaming industry in the last couple of years, it's that you spend an awful lot of money
01:09:22Making things that may or may not work and I guess the appeal of nintendo is that mostly it makes things that work
01:09:28Its hit rate has got to be better than anybody's right?
01:09:31Yeah, and I mean they tried this I
01:09:33Am one of the few people who will say super mario run was an excellent game
01:09:38And it was downloaded. I don't know 200 million times, but not enough people bought it for nintendo to consider that success. So like
01:09:46you've already had shigeru miyamoto make a game for the iphone and
01:09:50They never followed it up. So, um
01:09:53And you know apple arcade already has a very good zelda clone. So I think uh, apple's pretty happy
01:09:58Yeah, so before we pivot to the what would it look like thing, uh, I just want to I went back after we got this question
01:10:04and found
01:10:05uh
01:10:06From last summer the summer of 2023
01:10:09There were all those emails from 2020 that leaked out in the microsoft case
01:10:13Uh, and one of them was from phil spencer to a couple of folks on his team about nintendo
01:10:19And I think he pretty neatly I think sums up
01:10:21Everyone's feelings about nintendo in general and he says I totally agree that nintendo is the prime asset for us in gaming
01:10:27And today gaming is our most likely path to consumer relevance. This is they're talking about xbox
01:10:31Obviously i've had numerous conversations with the lt of nintendo about tighter collaboration and feel like if any u.s
01:10:36Company would have a chance with nintendo. We are probably in the best position
01:10:39This is the best part the unfortunate or fortunate for nintendo situation is that nintendo is sitting on a big pile of cash
01:10:45They have a board of directors that until recently has not pushed for further increases in market growth or stock appreciation
01:10:51And his basic thing is like I don't know what to give nintendo. They don't want our money
01:10:55They don't want our resources
01:10:57They're very happy being nintendo and I feel like that is why no one has bought nintendo because nintendo is super happy being nintendo
01:11:05Yeah, we think of nintendo as this playful company, you know, miyamoto is like happy-go-lucky guy, but they're
01:11:12a ruthless corporation that
01:11:15Extracts as much money from everything as they can. Yeah. Good luck finding zelda on sale ever
01:11:20Right, right. I mean what the switch is eight years old now and still doing just fine like nintendo knows exactly what it's doing
01:11:27uh, and yeah, I I like to the
01:11:31Would they accept any offer? I'm sure there's a number everybody always has a number but at some point
01:11:36nintendo's market cap, I think I was looking this morning is like 62 billion dollars and
01:11:41That's a that's a big number and at some point i'm sure there is a number
01:11:44But I bet that number is substantially higher than anybody thinks it is for what it would take to actually get that done
01:11:49uh
01:11:50But since you brought up apple arcade, I just I just want to fantasize for a minute here
01:11:54Let's let's say apple decides to write a check for you know, all of the cash. It has 250 billion dollars and it owns nintendo
01:12:02What do you think apple would do with nintendo?
01:12:04That is like i've been thinking about this and I feel like there's two avenues
01:12:08One of which is good and will not be successful and one of which is bad and will make a ton of money
01:12:14That sounds right. The one is the apple arcade route, which is like yeah, you can play like
01:12:20mario 3 and the mario wonder and like all these games on your phone and
01:12:25Nintendo has access to the hardware in a way that they do
01:12:30When they make their own hardware and can make things that are perfectly suited for it again. Mario run is good
01:12:35It's a game designed for a touchscreen. They know what they're doing. That's like a dream scenario
01:12:39But that's the dream snare a lot of like you get to emulate all the games on your apple devices
01:12:43It becomes this like incredible
01:12:45place for nintendo to put everything it's ever made including all the new stuff like
01:12:49That sounds awesome. Yeah, and that's what people say they want but not enough people most likely would actually pay the money for it
01:12:56and what's more likely to happen is um, so mario run
01:13:00I keep bringing it up. It was generally a failure for them, but they have had several successful mobile games
01:13:06Which are there's animal crossing one there's fire emblem one and they are just filled with all of the free-to-play
01:13:12Bullshit that everyone hates but they make so much money. They're still running and
01:13:18even though nintendo has forgotten about
01:13:20Mobile gaming they don't turn those switches off because they get money. Um, and that is how
01:13:25Apple makes its money from gaming. So, um, I think the dire scenario is, you know
01:13:31Loot boxes and animal crossing right or loot boxes in tears of the kingdom, right?
01:13:36Like that's that's that's where this starts to get really dark. Yeah, which of course
01:13:41ruins tears of the kingdom in a lot of ways
01:13:42And so it's like maybe there is something about the way that nintendo works right now
01:13:46That is the reason it's able to do the things that it does like maybe it's stick it inside of a corporation
01:13:50That is much more worried about maximizing growth and it changes
01:13:54All of the incentives here like maybe the way we have it is actually the correct way to have it
01:13:58Yeah, mario wonder exists, um when I was talking to the directors because
01:14:03They were like we're not gonna have a deadline
01:14:05We're just gonna let people come up with ideas and when it's ready, it's ready
01:14:09And then it was you know the best mario in a decade. So
01:14:13That's how it happens. Yeah. Yeah, so do you do you?
01:14:17Think there is a world in which?
01:14:20This ever happens in in the time that we're doing this like nintendo's been around forever
01:14:25We've given up guessing what's going to happen with nintendo
01:14:28Is this just nintendo's out here making alarm clocks not worrying about like live service games?
01:14:33You know what? I mean? Like is this is this just nintendo forever?
01:14:36Do you think if you can turn it around after the wii u I think like you're safe there
01:14:41They don't have to worry about it. Oh, they're nintendo. Fair enough. All right before I let you go
01:14:45Do you know anything about the switch 2? Can you blink twice if you know what's going on with the switch 2?
01:14:49I got nothing. Yeah, fair enough. All right, andrew. Thank you. Appreciate it
01:14:56All right, that is it for the verge cast today
01:14:58Thank you to everybody who came on the show and thank you as always for listening
01:15:01There is lots more on everything we talked about v's smart ring battle royale
01:15:06Chris's story about all of the hearing health stuff in the airpods
01:15:11All of our coverage of what's been going on with nintendo and apple and gaming and everything
01:15:14We'll put a bunch of links in the show notes, but there's lots more going on on the burst.com
01:15:18It's a good website. We like it a lot as always if you have thoughts questions feelings or a price
01:15:24You think is fair to buy nintendo?
01:15:26You can always email us at verge cast at the verge.com call the hotline 866 verge 1-1
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01:15:36Luckily liam and the other folks on our team do it better, but I want to be in that inbox more
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01:15:52This show is produced by liam james will poor and eric gomez
01:15:55The verge cast is a verge production and part of the vox media podcast network
01:15:58Nila and I will be back on friday to talk about more gadgets more ai stuff
01:16:04Continuing craziness at open ai and lots more. We'll see you then rock and roll
01:16:16You