Exclusive: In the first part of an interview with The Independent, Kemi Badenoch
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00:00This is David Maddox, political editor of The Independent here. I'm delighted to be joined by
00:06Kemi Betanok, the frontrunner in the Tory leadership election, which we'll see if she
00:12emerges as winner in a few weeks' time. Kemi, if you don't mind if we just start off with
00:20some of the stories of the day or of the week. We had overnight the issue with Donald Trump
00:29accusing Labour of election interference in the United States, which, you know,
00:37it's been the usual accusations of kind of student politics on Labour's side. But of course,
00:41it's a tradition of Conservative and Labour and Democrats and Republicans crossing the Atlantic.
00:48What are your thoughts on this? Do you think they've overplayed their hand?
00:52Well, I have been saying for a long time that this Labour government is full of student
00:57politicians. The way they talk, the things they say, it's as if they have not evolved since they
01:03were at uni. David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister, are on record
01:10as being very, very critical of President Trump. So I think that is the backdrop to what we have
01:16seen. If they had behaved as statesmen, if they had been statesmen-like and measured in their
01:21comments, then the actions of a few Labour activists, a hundred or so, would not look so
01:27problematic. It's because of how they have behaved that this has become news. People do go abroad to
01:34help other people campaign, but it's quite often a lot more subtle. It's, you know, one person going
01:41in because they have a friend. The organising of big bands of people, I think, is unusual,
01:47but it is worse because of what Labour have been saying about our allies in the United States. They
01:53have not been statesmen-like or diplomatic. So if you were leader, would you allow large
01:58numbers of Conservatives to do the same? Well, I certainly wouldn't be organising it,
02:04but I believe that you should trust people. I believe in personal responsibility. No one should
02:09be doing anything illegal, so that we would certainly discourage and try to stop. But what
02:15I really want us to see is people building links with Conservatives in other countries. I had a
02:21great endorsement, for example, from Ron DeSantis, who's the government of Florida. No one else in
02:26the campaign has had that. I had Tony Abbott, the former Prime Minister of Australia, endorsing me.
02:31It's because we have good relationships, because we've worked together. So it is not unusual for
02:36people to do stuff for those they have relationships with, but how you do it is important. Being
02:43positive about something that you want to work for is better than trying to get somebody out
02:47or being critical of another side. Okay, just on the subject of Mr Trump,
02:54because he's had a very well-publicised stunt this week of going and working in a McDonald's,
02:59I was just thinking, as a former McDonald's employee yourself, do you think that had value?
03:05There was people mocking him for it, but there were also people saying that, you know, it's put
03:10him in touch with ordinary voters. What was your impression of that? I think that if the potential
03:17leader of a country, or former leader, which he also is, is going to places like McDonald's,
03:23it is a good thing. It is showing that you understand that not everybody works
03:28in a high-flying corporate career or in a white-collar job, and it is signalling that you
03:33understand their lives. It is signalling that you understand their concerns. Anyone who is mocking
03:38that is the problem. And I had a lot of mocking when I said that I worked at McDonald's. People
03:45who sneer at these jobs often don't understand what others' lives are like, and they don't even
03:50understand how those jobs actually set a lot of people up for the future. I'm not the only
03:54politician who has worked at McDonald's, and I did go back there when I was a minister because I know
03:59what I learned there, and I'm proud of the experience that I got there. You weren't tempted
04:04to put an apron back on when you saw that? I did. Well, I put an apron on a couple of years ago,
04:09but no, not right now. Not right now. I'm on the campaign trail, not in the kitchen.
04:15Would you, if you were American, vote for Trump? So I don't answer this question. I think that
04:22if you are somebody who is looking to be a world leader, looking to lead your country at some point,
04:28that you need to be very diplomatic. And I learned this because when I was Trade Secretary,
04:32I had lots of complaints from other countries who said, why do you keep interfering? Not me
04:37personally, but people in the UK, why do you keep commenting like this? That it's not helpful. We're
04:42all trying to do the right thing. And what I want to do is give myself the space to be able to work
04:48with whoever wins. So I'm not an American citizen. I'm not voting there. It is for Americans to
04:52choose. I would be happy to work with whoever's leader of the United States. The other story
04:59this week has been the Chris Caba case. Obviously, another complicated issue, which has brought up
05:10the whole kind of idea of institutional racism again. Do you have any thoughts on that?
05:16I think my views on institutional racism and the police are actually quite well known. I think that
05:24this is an issue, as sensitive as it is, I'm actually going to, I want to write about it,
05:28if I can get some time on the campaign trail to set out more thoughts. But we need to back the
05:32police. What they do is extremely difficult. I remember when that case came out and the uproar.
05:39And, you know, some of the fallout from the Black Lives Matter protests, which I was very much
05:43against, I didn't like what they stood for. I think we need to be very careful to ensure that
05:49the police are able to police properly. I don't agree with these comments that communities or
05:54the black community is traumatized. I think that most black people do not want gang members
06:01running their communities, and anything that can be done to make their lives safer, they will welcome.
06:07I mean, you've spoken many times very eloquently on identity politics,
06:13and including in your speech at the conference, actually. And
06:21is it, do you think this is a real issue, that the actual use of identity politics in the
06:28mainstream political discourse? Or, you know, is it that this is a racist country, perhaps?
06:34I mean, there seems to be, it seems to be coming much more of a dividing line in recent years than
06:42it was, maybe, you know, when you were first elected, actually.
06:46I could see it becoming worse, even when I was first elected. Identity politics is a scourge,
06:53we need to get rid of it. And different groups practice it. There's identity politics on the
06:57left, there's identity politics on the right. I hate both of it. We need to talk about the
07:02shared identity, which we all have, which is being British. Labour likes to whip up identity politics.
07:09They think that it helps them with minority groups, and it adds to their vote. I lived in
07:14a place where everybody looks the same, but had different cultures, 300 different cultures and
07:18languages. Human beings will find conflict if you create difference. So I am determined to fight it.
07:25I did that throughout my career as a minister. I spoke out my first maiden speech, my very first
07:29speech in Parliament, talked about how I hated identity politics, and how this was not a racist
07:34country. This is one of the best places in the world to actually be an ethnic minority. But we
07:40are a multiracial country. But I want us to work towards more of a shared culture. Multiculturalism
07:46is different from being multiracialism. And some cultures integrate, others don't. The more diverse
07:52you are, the more complicated it is. We are already a multiracial country. We're not changing
07:57that. We cannot change that. Let us start to work on what binds us together. I suppose the other big
08:04issue which you've been very much involved in has been the trans debate. Do you understand why
08:12people have been offended by some of the things you've said? You know, saying that trans women
08:18are men, for example. Or is this just a line that we need to draw? It is a line that we need to draw.
08:27We cannot start our politics by thinking what is not going to offend anybody. Everything will
08:33offend someone somewhere. We have to start from principles. This is one of the reasons why I'm
08:38standing. I want a principles first approach. Biological sex is a reality. Some people want to
08:45be treated as if they were the other sex. We understand that. And there can be rules around
08:50that. But a line has to be drawn somewhere. Saying that you can do whatever you want, you can go into
08:55women's spaces as long as you personally believe you're a woman, or even just say you're a woman,
09:00is wrong. And politicians need to be strong enough to say that. We have a Labour government
09:05now that was too scared to say that biological sex is real. Keir Starmer saying 99% of women
09:12don't have a penis. This is nonsense. If you cannot speak the truth about something that
09:17even a little child understands, how will you speak the truth about what is more complex?
09:22Okay, well, talk about children. My son is a big Doctor Who fan. He saw a headline, you know,
09:33about you having an argument with Doctor Who. And he said, you know, why is Kemi
09:38attacking Doctor Who? But I mean, obviously, it was on this issue. Obviously, he made the comments,
09:44David Tennant made those comments first at that awards evening, I believe. Were you surprised
09:52by that? Were you surprised by the kind of vociferousness? I was surprised by it. And it
09:59was very important that I spoke up. One of the things that I have found is that there are a lot
10:05of women who feel voiceless. There are a lot of women who have been told to shut up. There are a
10:10lot of women who have been sacked from their jobs for asking for single sex spaces, for women-only
10:15toilets, for saying the biological sex is real. If I, the Minister for Women and Equalities, as I was
10:21at the time, also shuts up because a TV actor tells me to, what signal am I sending to them?
10:27It was very important that I spoke up. And I think it's sad that it was written up as Kemi attacks
10:35Doctor Who, because what I was doing was actually defending women's rights. And this is what always
10:40happens to strong women. If you don't do as you're told, if you don't play ball, then they will come
10:46after you. And what I want people to know is that I'm pretty tough. I'm not scared. I will always do
10:52the right thing. And I won't be quiet when it is time to speak up. That is why I don't need to make
10:57promises about promising to do this and that. People have seen my record. They know that when
11:03things are tough and when things are bad, I will speak up. I have nothing to prove on that front.
11:07Well, I'm glad you made that point about strong women, because over my time covering politics in
11:14Westminster, one of the things that has always astonished me is the way that strong women,
11:21particularly in the Conservative Party, and not just you, but, you know, you could say Suella
11:26Braverman and a few others as well, are treated very much like Marmite characters. You know,
11:34there's this love, either love adoration or this kind of complete hate. What is it about strong
11:45Tory women that provokes this sort of reaction? I don't know. This is a tough question. I mean,
11:51you tell me, David. We're just being ourselves. And I think that the stronger the personality,
11:57and the more unusual the politician, the more likely they are to get very strong reactions
12:04from people. And actually, I think that that's something that's going to be very helpful
12:08for us to cut through in opposition. We need a leader who's going to cut through. We need a
12:13leader who stands out for the right reasons, somebody who can communicate, somebody who has
12:19values that people will instinctively and immediately understand. Okay, because your
12:25critics will often describe you as abrasive or a difficult person. Of course, famously, Margaret
12:32Thatcher was called that difficult woman. You know, I suppose the question is, with that sort of,
12:41I'm not saying that's your personality, but with that sort of reputation,
12:45are you able to unite the party? Or does that really matter?
12:49I can definitely unite the party. And it's interesting that these critics never come out
12:54in public. Or when they do, I was criticised for spending too much time with my children,
12:59it immediately becomes obvious who is in the right. So let's put aside the anonymous sources.
13:05Let's look at who is actually coming out to support me. I have support from across the spectrum.
13:11Former chair of the TRG, that's the left wing One Nation group, Damian Green is supporting me.
13:16Former chair of the ERG, the European Research Group, Steve Baker is supporting me. I have two
13:21former party leaders, William Hague, Ian Duncan Smith. These are not people who are left wing.
13:28These are people who are just left wing or just right wing. These are people who are coming from
13:34across the political spectrum. I am firmly on the right of the party. But I understand that
13:38not everybody is going to agree with me on everything. And I think the way to unify the
13:43party is not to say, here are my policies, and if the majority of the party membership vote for it,
13:49it's my way or the highway. That is a recipe for disaster. That is a recipe for more infighting.
13:55And the one thing that members have said, everywhere I've gone throughout the country,
13:59is that they are sick and tired of infighting. No one votes for divided parties. They have various
14:05views about policies. They understand why we may have done some things they didn't like,
14:09and so on. But the one thing that unites all the members is just a fury about how we just kept
14:18attacking each other. And that is why I have made it a requirement of my campaign. We're not
14:23attacking any other candidates. We don't care if they attack me. There are all sorts of people
14:28who are supporting my opponent right now, who are attacking me. This blue on blue is what destroyed
14:34us. I think the members will see who are the people who are bringing peace and harmony, and
14:38who are the ones who are going to carry on the infighting. But there's only one unity candidate
14:42in this election. So you take a more collegiate approach than to policy? I always do. And that
14:49is why all of the ministers who worked with me in the Department for Business and Trade are
14:54supporting me. Whether they're ex-MPs or current MPs, ministers like Kevin Hollenrake, Nigel
15:00Huddleston, Andrew Bowie, Alan Mack, Greg Hands, former party chairman who was in the department.
15:06If I was so abrasive, if I was so rude and terrible, all of those people would disappear.
15:11And actually, if you look at other candidates, they didn't have their team supporting them.
15:15They had their teams running against them. And I think that that's quite an important fact.
15:20So what do you say to people who say that this final shows that the party has moved to the right
15:25with you and Robert? Because, you know, I mean, we'll get on to policies or lack of policies in
15:33your campaign in a moment. But you know, he's certainly promoting leaving the ECHR, for example,
15:39you're very much, I mean, we've discussed what you've said about the kind of culture wars issues.
15:46Do you think that represents the party itself, the feeling within the party, or is it a reaction
15:53to reform? So I tell people that it's not about left or right anymore. It's about right and wrong.
16:01And if we focus on that, we will see what is happening, that the party has created these
16:06false binaries. Well, if you leave your rights, and if you will remain your left wing, which
16:12wasn't true. Boris Johnson was on the left of the party, he was very liberal on immigration,
16:16more high spending, you know, he called himself a one nation conservative. And yet he was portrayed
16:21as being on the right because of Brexit, we need to stop these false labels and these false binaries.
16:26Let's talk about the common ground, where we can get the majority of people to support us,
16:32where we can show a vision and direction for how we are going to take the country forward.
16:37So how does that deal with the threat of Farage and reform? Because let's be honest about it,
16:43you lost votes to the Lib Dems and Labour, but actually lost more votes from people staying at
16:49home and going and voting for reform. And how do you get conservatives back from those positions?
17:00So I do think the first step back in winning a coalition that is of the centre right,
17:06is to go to those people who are former conservative voters who went to reform.
17:10And that is why I never attack reform voters. I think that it is important that we remember that
17:16they were our people, and I hope that they still are. When I was knocking on doors in my constituency,
17:21I wasn't finding Labour people going to reform, it was former conservatives who were going to reform.
17:26And why did they do that? It was because we broke promises on things like tax and immigration.
17:33They're not going to come back if we just have some more promises. They will come back if they
17:37can trust us. That is why I am starting with rebuilding trust. No one trusts a divided party.
17:43Let's unify the party, not just for its own sake, but behind something. That is why my campaign is
17:49about renewal and first principles. What do we all agree on? Freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of
17:55association, equality under the law, whatever you look like, no two-tier policing. Let's talk more
18:01about family, it's critical. Let's talk about what real citizenship means, not just having a passport.
18:06These are the things that we need to go back to first principles on. It doesn't mean that we're
18:10not going to have policies. It doesn't mean that we don't even have policies right now. We have a
18:14policy on the winter fuel payment, for example. We will be able to react to what Labour is doing,
18:19but we are not the government. This is not a general election. The policies Keir Starmer had
18:25in 2020 have all fallen by the wayside. I could give you all sorts of policies now. How do you
18:30know that I'm going to deliver them? You need to look at the character and the conviction
18:35of the person you want to vote for, not just what they're promising today. And that is how
18:40people get reform voters back. If they think this woman gets us, she understands our concerns,
18:45and actually on her record, she's done well. There's no scandal here. She wasn't sacked from
18:50any job. There's no integrity issue, no weird, funny donor. Everything's transparent. This is
18:55somebody with character. This is somebody with integrity. We will put our trust in her. She's
19:00unifying her party. All right, let's hear what she has to say. It isn't me forcing myself through
19:05here are my new policies. What do you think? They're not going to listen to that. Let's get real.
19:09Would you then rule out leaving the ECHR? No, I have never ruled it out. I think we will
19:16probably have to leave the ECHR. But leaving the ECHR isn't just us saying we're leaving by.
19:23It is a complicated process. If we left today, we would not deport any more people, because that
19:29wasn't the only reason that was given for the Rwanda plan working. There are other things like
19:33the Refugee Convention, Modern Slavery Act, the Human Rights Act, and so on and so forth.
19:37We also have a problem with legal activism, where there are lawyers. Keir Starmer is one example of
19:42them. There are lawyers in this country who work actively to undermine our immigration policy. He
19:48wrote letters asking us not to deport people who went on to commit more serious crimes. That is
19:53what we have in our government now. We need to look at ourselves first. Let's look at the domestic
19:57legislation. If we need to leave the ECHR, yes, we will, but it is not a silver bullet. And that is
20:02why I wrote very strongly about what a wholesale immigration plan looks like. If you think that
20:08one thing is going to fix it, then you're only going to be disappointed. I will not make any
20:13promises unless I know exactly how we will deliver them. You mentioned two-tier policing. Do you think
20:20we have two-tier policing? Well, it's an accusation that has been around for a long time. Stop and
20:25Search is accused of being two-tier policing. We need to make sure that we show that we are treating
20:31everybody equally. This equality under the law principle is absolutely key. And I think that
20:36Keir Starmer got his response to those Southport riots wrong by focusing on the mistake that the
20:43people made in terms of identifying the perpetrator, rather than focusing on a huge tragedy has
20:48happened. We know people are concerned. We are going to do what we can to make sure these things
20:54aren't happening in our country. We understand that. Saying that first, before calling everybody
20:59far right and the way we're going to lock them up and throw away the key. And also, I do think
21:03we need a better understanding of how sentencing is working in this country, where some people who
21:09commit significant crimes look like they're let off, and others who commit minor crimes look like
21:13they go to prison. It is very complicated. It depends on, you know, is it a magistrate's court?
21:19Is it a crown court in terms of how speedily justice is served? People don't understand it
21:23anymore. And we have to start talking in a way that the people understand and not get bogged down
21:30in managerialism. One of the things, I think you referred to the Christopher Chope
21:38business about, supposedly, you need to be spending more time with your children.
21:45All I want to do is spend time with my children, which my husband is actually
21:49doing most of the childcare right now. And he heard that and thought, what on earth is this?
21:54Because, you know, we referred to the, you know, the difficult woman type thing on one side. But
22:01then we get the other side, which again, only seems to be ever levelled at female politicians,
22:07which is that you're the puppet and Michael Gove. And I appreciate most of the people who watch this
22:13won't know this name, but Dougie Smith is always a name that comes out and all this sort of business.
22:17It is very strange, but it hasn't just started. It's been happening since I first became an MP,
22:23but the criticism wasn't coming from the right then, it was coming from the left.
22:27When I gave my maiden speech, I won an award for speech of the year. And a lot of people on the
22:33left, a lot of the black Labour MPs said, I won't name the specific ones, someone wrote that speech
22:38for her, couldn't possibly be her, nobody would write that. When people can't do something
22:43themselves, and they see someone else who they don't expect to be able to do it, doing it very
22:49well. They don't want to feel like, oh, this person can do this better than me. They want to
22:55find a reason, or someone must be helping her. Otherwise, she could never have done this. The
23:00idea that I, a junior minister, just ran for leader two years ago, and did so well, former
23:08chancellors, former Home Secretaries, was very strange for a lot of people. They just couldn't
23:13understand it. How did she do it? And of course, he supported me in that contest, he's not around
23:18anymore. So they looked for a reason, oh, well, we don't like this guy. And he's supporting her,
23:23he must be behind it all. And I think that's sad, that when people are successful to look for a
23:28conspiracy theory, to explain their success, instead of just saying this person has done well,
23:34what can we learn, or just acknowledging that. But it does happen to a lot of women.
23:41But most people don't believe these things, because they have seen me being consistent for
23:45a long time. I'm not saying anything new. Because I've been talking about these things since before
23:50I became an MP. And people know where I stand. They know where I stand on women's rights. They
23:55know where I stand on gender ideology. They know where I stand on net zero. When everybody else
24:00was clapping net zero, I was in the parliament saying, why are we doing this? What does this
24:04mean? So I don't need to prove myself. What is interesting is that when someone else comes in
24:09with new views that they never had before, no one's asking, well, where did this come from?
24:14But whatever happens, people are always going to challenge my beliefs. I need to show that I have
24:22that conviction. I'm not worried about what they say. There will always be criticism, I need to
24:26make sure that I'm always doing the right thing. I mean, is it misogyny?
24:31I don't know. So I don't like using the isms, unless I have gone through every other possibility.
24:41So I never say, oh, this person is doing this because of race, racism or sexism,
24:46until there is genuinely no other explanation. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
24:52I like to look for the best possible interpretation of their motives. And this often
24:57means that people think that I'm excusing certain behavior, but I just actually think
25:01that it creates better trust. So is it misogyny? I'm not sure. I think that there are better
25:06explanations. And one of them is that there are certain people who want to be, they feel they've
25:12been overlooked. They want to be the ones in charge. They want to be the ones who do the
25:16picking. And anyone who comes in from left field, who they think is breaking the rules they don't
25:21like. So we mentioned the parallels made to Margaret. Do you feel that you are a kind of
25:29Margaret Thatcher for the 21st century? I mean, certainly some people do. And what would,
25:36I mean, you've talked about re-engineering the Conservative Party. It's a lovely phrase.
25:42What does that mean, though? So people make a lot of comparisons. And to be honest, you can
25:48find things in common. You pick any two politicians, you can actually often find a lot
25:53in common. The comparisons with Lady Thatcher are flattering. But I am Kemi. I am not her.
26:00We have similarities. She was a scientist. I was an engineer, for example. And she set out,
26:07you know, with that stepping stones document, which she worked with Keith Joseph on, just a
26:11framework for the future. That is what I want us to do. What has been amazing is that the people
26:17who have been making the Margaret Thatcher comparison the most are the ones who knew her.
26:21People like Michael Forsythe, David Davis, Rocco Forte, who was a businessman, who knew her very
26:27well. Charles Moore, her biographer. The people who knew her say they see a lot of her in me.
26:36That is very flattering. But I am Kemi. I'm not Maggie. I'm Kemi.
26:40So if a handbag was Margaret Thatcher's kind of symbol, what would Kemi's symbol be?
26:46I don't know. Maybe the glasses, which I'm not wearing now.
26:51Maybe the braids, the headphones, my wireless headphones. I'm trying to think of what do I
26:58always have with me. I'm not sure other than that.
27:03Just to wrap up, let's just look at another issue that's coming up. Assisted dying,
27:10which obviously is a free vote. It's not a party political issue. Where are you on that?
27:19What are your instincts on that? I have been, in the past, a patron of
27:26conservatives for choice at the end of life. So I do support the principle of very limited
27:33circumstances where somebody wants to choose how they go. They can do so because of what I saw
27:42happen to a family member. She died in the most awful way. I just thought, how could we have let
27:48this happen? We knew that was what she wanted. We couldn't help her. Even now, just thinking about
27:56it, it's very upsetting. I support the principle, but this is where a lot of people think that I'm
28:04overly nuanced. I think that a lot of the systems in this country are broken. NHS needs reform.
28:10We can't deliver social care. Can we actually handle assisted suicide on top of all that?
28:17This is where my biases and political prejudices come in. If it was a conservative government,
28:23I would feel more confident that we are better at this. It's a Labour government. It's a private
28:27member's bill. They're rushing it through. What's it going to look like? So I don't know how I'm
28:31going to vote on this bill. I know what I believe. I think that there are limited circumstances.
28:36I don't think Labour can deliver. But I also know that we are very bad at safeguarding in this
28:42country. There's a lot of tick-boxing and process. But I am still scarred by how so many children
28:48were sterilized. They had their organs, their reproductive organs removed. And there were
28:53safeguards there. And they weren't trans. They were just gay children. A lot of them with autism.
28:59Where were the safeguards for them? So if you couldn't have safeguards for those kids,
29:03are we going to have safeguards for the people who have a terminal illness? Because that's the
29:08only circumstance I think it should be allowed. Who have a terminal illness and just want to make
29:12sure they go away or they pass away as peacefully as possible? I'm not sure. This is what I will be
29:18testing. The other non-political kind of ethical issue that's likely to come up in the next year
29:26or two is also the decriminalization of abortion, which has similar sort of splits, obviously,
29:36different end-of-life issue. But where are you on that? The law is fine as it is. I don't want us
29:46to get into the sort of arguments they have in the US. They are so toxic. We had laws put in place
29:53which are working fine. I've had three children. I know of people who have had abortions. I know
30:01how tough it can be. We need to give people the space to do so if it is not right for them. But we
30:07also know that after 24 weeks, babies can survive. And we need to be very careful about just pushing
30:14the boundaries into places that are just unethical. Let's leave the law as it is. The things that are
30:20causing problems in this country are not abortion. So let's leave that alone, leave the law as it is.
30:26Just on a broader point on this, do you worry that some of that Americanization of politics
30:32is coming into this country on these issues? It already has because of social media. There's no
30:38information border anymore. Just to finish off with, we always like people we interview to
30:47tell us their choice of books. What are you reading at the moment? I'm reading WhatsApp,
30:52David. That's all. I read information. The idea that I have any time to read fiction
31:00is for the birds. I am so, so busy. And it's one of the most frustrating things when you can't be
31:07anywhere in a campaign. Yesterday, I had multiple clashes. I tried to do as many as possible.
31:11And people saying, oh, you're not here. You're not there. Why aren't you doing this? Because
31:16I'm doing something else. Many people forget that I'm still the shadow housing secretary.
31:21And I have to look at what Angela Raine is putting forward. So I have to read all those policy
31:24documents. We have a bill that's going through Parliament. I have to make sure we know what
31:29the amendments are, what the position is. I'm still doing the COVID inquiry. I'm still doing
31:33the post office inquiry. And my opponent is not doing those things. So he does have more time
31:38to go out and do media. I am doing my job as well as running for leader. And it just goes to show
31:43how many things I can juggle at the same time. But sacrifices need to be made. One of those
31:49sacrifices is books. Excellent stuff. Well, thank you very much, Kim Badenoch. We will
31:56find out on November the 2nd if you've been successful or not. But it's been a pleasure
32:02meeting you today. Thank you, David.