Nowhere to run as Sudan civil war pushes Darfur to the brink
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Far from the war in Ukraine and multiple fronts in the Middle East, a power grab between feuding
00:05coup leaders rages on.
00:08Since April of 2023, Sudan's descended into a full-blown civil war, where the momentum
00:14swung several times.
00:16And maybe again, what with the government forces of Abdel Fattah al-Burhan trying to
00:20recapture the whole of the capital, and a senior general switching sides, defecting
00:25from the rapid support forces of Mohammed Hamdan Dogolo, a.k.a. Hamedi, who's laid siege
00:32to the last major city beyond his reach, inside of his native Darfur.
00:37We'll ask about the dire situation there, the spillover effect everywhere from the Sahel
00:43to the Horn of Africa, and the discreet backers who make this nightmare possible to a degree.
00:50Several sides found themselves at the same table at this week's BRICS summit in Russia.
00:55With the West helpless elsewhere, what can be done to stop Sudan's wanton destruction
01:01and put its revolution of 2021 back on the rails?
01:05Today in the France 24 debate, Sudan on the brink.
01:09With us, two guests who've had a firsthand look from Cairo.
01:16International analyst and commentator Dalia Abdelmonem.
01:20Thank you for being with us.
01:24Thank you for having me.
01:25Human rights activist Gaffar Mohamedou Sainin is with us as well.
01:29Good to see you again.
01:31Thank you for having me.
01:32Historian Gérard Prunier, the author of Darfur, a 21st Century Genocide.
01:37Thanks for joining us.
01:40And from Brussels, Claire Sanfilippo, emergency coordinator for the humanitarian aid group
01:48Doctors Without Borders, MSF.
01:51Welcome to the show.
01:52Thanks for having me.
01:54Your reactions on the hashtag F2 for debate.
01:58Let's begin 1,000 kilometers away from the capital in Darfur, a vast multi-ethnic expanse
02:05that endured a genocide two decades ago, where Hamedi's RSF has laid siege to the only
02:13regional capital still in government hands.
02:15You can see on this map, El Fasher.
02:17This was on the one side, how it looked back in May, and how Sudan looks and the part you
02:26see in the west, the Darfur parts, as of October the 8th.
02:34Around North Darfur's capital, evidence of war crimes, with researchers at Yale University
02:39in the United States earlier this month publishing satellite imagery that shows the torching
02:43of at least 14 villages.
02:47Two weeks ago, MSF issued a plea for help after suspending services at the Zamzam refugee
02:54camp due to a blockade by fighters.
02:59Claire Sanfilippo, tell us about that blockade.
03:05Thank you very much.
03:06Well, I think, you know, the situation in Sudan is absolutely dire, generally, and that
03:12applies as well to Darfur.
03:15And there we see really multiple health crisis, day in and day out, and terrifying malnutrition
03:23rates.
03:24I really don't have any other words to describe what is happening, particularly in Darfur.
03:30In Zamzam camp, we screened over 30,000 children in the camp, and we found horrifying rates
03:40of acute malnutrition of 34%.
03:43Just to give you a reference, 15% is what the World Health Organization considers the
03:49emergency threshold.
03:51So at this stage, we're not talking about emergency.
03:54We're really talking about a nightmare, twice over the emergency threshold.
03:58And just to update us then, it was October the 10th that you had to suspend supplying
04:06the Zamzam camp.
04:09What's been the situation since?
04:11Well, you know, it's always heartbreaking when we have to suspend activities.
04:18And in this war, in Sudan, MSF has had to suspend medical activities on multiple occasions
04:26because of obstructions that we've seen were systematic from the warring parties.
04:34In Zamzam, what we have seen is indeed a supply blockade.
04:38Essentially, most supply roads to Zamzam camp are controlled by the rapid support forces.
04:45And for weeks and months, they've made it all but impossible to bring essential supplies
04:50since the intensification of fighting around Al-Fashr in May.
04:55And as supply routes ran low, end of September, we've been forced to stop care, as you said,
05:00for 5,000 children, and that included 2,900 children with severe acute malnutrition.
05:07As you know, children can die if they're not supported and they are severely malnourished.
05:14So we continued to have a hospital in the camp, 80 beds.
05:19It remains functioning, but it's basically to treat the children at the greatest risk of dying.
05:25After almost months of complete blockade, we've seen positive signs in recent days,
05:31with only a handful of trucks arriving.
05:34But what I'd like to emphasize is that the quantities are vastly, vastly insufficient.
05:40To give you an idea, the United Nations have managed to brought from Chad about 200 trucks
05:46since August 15th, 200 trucks, that means around three trucks per day.
05:52According to our nutrition experts, just to feed the people of Zamzam camp, that is one
05:58camp in one town in North Darfur, which is one of the five states of the Darfur, we would
06:04need at least 13 trucks per day.
06:07And let me ask you about this, Claire, because you were on the border in Chad just up until
06:12a few days ago.
06:15Is the fact that there's not enough aid getting in because the international community is
06:19not sending in enough or because it's being obstructed?
06:23Well, I think, you know, let me tell you what women and children told me.
06:29When I was in Eastern Chad, I was at Tine, which is right at the border between Chad
06:36and Sudan, and they're virtually at the border crossing transit camp.
06:41All the people are women and children.
06:44I talked to quite a few women and what they described to me was a harrowing trip.
06:50They all came from al-Fasir.
06:52It took them a month to come.
06:56During this trip, what they told me about was uncertainty, fear and deprivation.
07:02They didn't have food.
07:03They had to rely on the generosity of people.
07:06They didn't have access to water.
07:08So they drank stagnant water.
07:10And what you can see when they arrive is you see jerry cans of water.
07:14The water is brown and sometimes there's even algae in it.
07:19So as you can imagine, as a result of this trip, when they come up, very often we see
07:25malnourished children and we see pregnant and lactating women who are malnourished.
07:30So this is, you know, very, very serious situation.
07:35My question is about, you're saying not enough trucks are getting in.
07:38Are not enough trucks getting in because the international community is not sending enough
07:43aid to the region or because those trucks are being blocked by fighters?
07:50So there is a key issue in terms of obstruction.
07:55As I mentioned, there really was, you know, a supply blockade on Zamzam.
07:59This is something we've seen since the very beginning of the conflict and that we're not
08:04only seeing this area in Darfur, we're also seeing this in the areas controlled by the
08:11Sudanese armed forces, where we as Doctors Without Borders have been prevented systematically
08:17from sending supplies from Port Sudan, that is an area controlled by the Sudanese armed
08:24forces, into Khartoum in areas controlled by the rapid support forces.
08:31So this is a key obstruction that we continue to see and we really need immediate, unhindered
08:39humanitarian access.
08:40We need to be able to do our job to improve the situation in Sudan.
08:45Ghaffar Mohamed Sainin, you're Darfuri.
08:48You have family in El Fasher in North Darfur.
08:52What are they telling you?
08:53Well, what they are telling me is shocking, disturbing.
08:59The situation has reached beyond critical stage since as early as February when MSF published
09:10that report of every two hours, a kid dies.
09:15And that number has tripled today.
09:17We're talking about every three hours, every two hours.
09:21Because how long has the siege of El Fasher been going on?
09:24The siege of El Fasher has been going on as early as October 2023.
09:30And it's still going on now?
09:31It's still going on, but the siege has been intensified after May 2024.
09:39The siege started immediately after a joint force of armed struggle movement declared
09:46that they will depart from the neutrality position.
09:50So the siege was, you know, started from that point.
09:54And immediately after the siege began, those humanitarian convoys used to come from all
10:01the way from the port of Sudan were prevented.
10:04From the Red Sea?
10:05Yeah, from the Red Sea all the way through the Sudan and reach El Fasher were deliberately
10:15prevented by the rabid support forces.
10:18Few humanitarian convoys that used to come through Chad and all that as well was deliberately
10:23prevented by the rabid support forces.
10:25And the siege has been intensified after May 2024.
10:31This is where the things start, you know, became very complicated.
10:36Nothing is getting out of the town and nothing is coming inside the town.
10:41And what about what's the situation since the end of last month?
10:44Because General Al Buran, he was in New York for UN week.
10:48And that's when he launches this offensive in the capital Khartoum and in other places,
10:55claiming that he's going to try to have a link between, he's going to try to break the
10:58blockade.
11:01It's been nearly a month.
11:02What's happened?
11:03What's happened is because when the war started on April 15, the army was not really-
11:10Of last year.
11:11Yeah, of last year.
11:12Army was really, was not ready.
11:15So all these, the past 15, 16 months, the army was in preparation to launch, you know,
11:21I mean, last offensive, at least to take the control of the area of the greater Khartoum.
11:27And in the last month, what's happened?
11:29Last month, they managed to break that, you know, I mean, the deadlock in Khartoum.
11:35They managed to cross the border, the bridges to Khartoum from the Omdurman to Khartoum.
11:40So they are now closing in the Arab support forces in the southern part of Khartoum.
11:47It's only a matter of time before we hear the full liberation of a greater area of Khartoum.
11:53So that will leave.
11:55And at the same time, what's taking right now place, the other offensive fronts taking
12:00place in Al Jazeera State, in the central-
12:02Yeah, before we talk about Al Jazeera State, let me ask Dalia Abdelmonim, because you're
12:07from Khartoum, originally.
12:12What are you hearing as far as this offensive crossing the Nile inside of the capital?
12:17And I mean, it's been nearly a month.
12:19What do we know?
12:21Well, according to the reports that I read today, you know, Bahri, which is the north
12:27of Khartoum, Khartoum is divided into, like, three mini-cities, Omdurman, Khartoum, and
12:31Khartoum North.
12:33And the army offensive in Khartoum North, Bahri has, you know, taken ground.
12:39But it is a slow process, simply because Khartoum is very densely urbanized, and the RSF embed
12:46themselves within these urban areas.
12:50So and the SAF strategy, war strategy, is aerial bombardment.
12:55And most of the time, that aerial bombardment is very indiscriminate.
13:03So what you get is a lot of- But I'd like to go back to your point about the obstruction
13:09of aid.
13:10The obstruction of aid is being used as a weapon by both sides, both the RSF and SAF.
13:15SAF, before, previously, was not allowing any aid to enter RSF-controlled areas.
13:21And same thing was being applied by RSF.
13:23And at the same time, funding for Sudan aid is really slow.
13:29I think the budget, the fund that the UN put up was like $2.9 billion.
13:33And so far, I think only 18% has been pledged or given.
13:38So aid is trickling, it is beyond trickling, it is worse than trickling down to Sudan.
13:44The floods, the rainy season did play a part.
13:47Both sides are a major factor in the obstruction of aid reaching to the civilians.
13:54And unfortunately, the protection of civilians is not a priority for either side, nor does
13:59it seem that the protection of civilians is a priority to the international community
14:02as a whole.
14:04Because the outcry for what's happening in Sudan is very muted.
14:09For a war that's been going on for more than a year and a half, we don't get much, you
14:14know, from the international community, where it's like we're a side topic, unfortunately.
14:22But it's the worst humanitarian crisis in the world right now.
14:25We have the largest number of displaced people in the world.
14:28The number of people who are becoming refugees is increasing by the day.
14:33And just in the past 72 hours, I think the number of deaths in both Fashr, Khartoum,
14:39and Jazeera, and several in Kordofan, has hit more than 300 civilians, including children.
14:47That's just within 72 hours, because the RSF is on a vengeful campaign, simply because
14:52of the defection of their former RSF lieutenant.
14:57So the situation is beyond dire, it is, and there's no, that sense of urgency is not there.
15:06And that's something that, you know, agencies like MSF and the Norwegian Refugee Council
15:17have been calling out for since day one of the war.
15:22But their calls have fallen on deaf ears, unfortunately.
15:24Yeah, because there's several factors here, Dalia.
15:27There's, like you say, there's, so there's the offensive.
15:30There's this major defection, Abu Akhlaq Khakil, a rapid support forces commander in Al Jazeera
15:38State.
15:39Sources telling the Sudan Tribune news site that the surrender, that his change of camps
15:45followed intensive negotiations.
15:48That in turn, as you say, has sparked reprisal attacks.
15:52Several media reporting the killing of civilians, the torching of fields and villages in Jazeera
15:58State.
16:01This was billed as a turning of the tide, this offensive by the government.
16:05It just feels like a forever war from what you're describing, Dalia.
16:13All right, may have lost the connection there with Cairo.
16:20We'll try to get back to that in a moment.
16:23Gérard Preunier, you think back to 2021, the overthrow of longtime strongman Omar al-Bashir.
16:31We saw civil society coalesce in Sudan.
16:36And now we're watching this argument between two generals turn into descendants.
16:45Well, this is the way the media pictured it.
16:49You have two apprentice dictators who want to grab the power for themselves.
16:57I'm afraid it's a little bit more complicated because the Sudan never existed.
17:04It was an empire, which was a projection of the Ottoman Empire.
17:09And the British, when they came in in 1898, just took it as it was.
17:15This was, you know, the British never had a colonial policy contrary to the French.
17:19The French wanted a unified colonial view, whether it was Indochina, Madagascar or Algeria.
17:27The British never did that.
17:29They took what was there.
17:32And in 1898, when they reconquered the Sudan, which they had lost at the time of Gordon,
17:39they decided to just take it to buy the whole thing lock, stock and barrel.
17:46And the important thing is that a lot of people think that Africa was colonized by Europeans.
17:53Some, the majority.
17:56But in that case, it was colonized by the Ottoman Empire, which, of course, built a
18:01system which had nothing to do with the European systems, whether it was the Belgians, the
18:08French or the British.
18:10And so fast forward to today, we've already seen in 2011 the lopping off of a territory
18:16becoming the independent nation of South Sudan.
18:19Are we about to witness another partition?
18:22It could be.
18:23That probably would be a way to some kind of peace, because the southern Sudan was always
18:30something which was a marginal, you know, first of all, it was not Muslim.
18:35Second, it had very little Arabic influence.
18:40It was.
18:41OK, so that's done and dusted.
18:43But now are you suggesting that there's going to there could be a partition with Darfur?
18:48Of course.
18:49Now, the problem is, will the partition with Darfur stop the war?
18:54Because there could be a partition.
18:55It wouldn't stop the war.
18:58Well, I think the idea of partition is part of this.
19:04The other camp that was waging war against the Sudanese population and state was a part
19:10of their P plan.
19:12You're saying that's what Hamedi wants?
19:13Yeah, that's what Hamedi wants, what their regional and international sponsors want,
19:19because they first, when their A plan failed, they came to P plan.
19:24And this, what we have witnessed, aggression, you know, this against al-Fashr is indication
19:32of because they think the only area that left was free under the influence of the SAF or
19:41government of Sudan and the joint forces is al-Fashr and North Darfur, capital of North
19:46Darfur, which is the largest region in Darfur.
19:50So these are the indicator of they are going for that plan.
19:55But the fierce resistance that was faced by the Darfuris, this indication of, no, this
20:03P plan is not going to work out no matter how long.
20:07So you're saying, just to be clear, that Darfuris believe in the nation of Sudan?
20:12Yes, we believe in a unifying nation of Sudan.
20:15We believe that even though Darfur was attached to Sudan after 1917 by the British as a punishment
20:25for the sultanate that who sided on the losing camp in the First World War, but Darfur always
20:32remain and want to remain part of the unified Sudan, because this, I mean, the separation
20:39is not the solution for us Darfuris.
20:42Yeah.
20:43Abdelmanem, is there a risk of partition with the current civil war?
20:49I have to agree with Jaffer.
20:50I think it's a plan that outside actors would like for it to come to fruition.
20:57But you know, there is complete, there's a lot of, there's high resistance towards Hemeti,
21:02and he is from Darfur.
21:04So when the people of Darfur even, you know, fighting against him, that says a lot about,
21:08you know, how they feel.
21:10I personally do not subscribe to that.
21:12I think it's an ulterior design by certain elements, whether they're from Sudan or outside
21:17of Sudan.
21:18Who are those outside elements?
21:22Outside actors, you know, countries that have a vested interest in creating new territories
21:29within Africa for the resources, Sudan is a very rich country in resources, whether
21:38it's water, minerals, gold.
21:41The smuggling of gold has not stopped ever since day one of the war.
21:46It's a fruit, it's the war economy is booming for certain actors.
21:51And at the same time, you know, they would love to have the port, the Red Sea, you know,
21:56very, how do you say, desirable factors about Sudan that would make certain actors, especially
22:04within the region and within the outside, you know, extended region of this part of
22:10the world, that they could have a partition or they would have more of a say in how the
22:15government or any future government of Sudan would be so that their interests are not,
22:20you know, come, you know, their interests remain high and that they have, you know.
22:28I reaffirm that we as Sudanese, we do not subscribe to that partition of Darfur.
22:35Darfur is part of Sudan, as is the rest of the country.
22:38Gérard Prunier, is it down to outside players to a certain degree?
22:45It is true that the things documented-
22:47I think the lady is very diplomatic.
22:49The answer of the question you fielded is very clear.
22:54It's the United Arab Emirates.
22:57They are the ones who are backing Hemeti.
23:01They are delivering weapons, which are mostly supplied by the Russians, and the weapons
23:08then are taken to Dubai, and then they are flown to Chad, or at times they are sent by
23:17ship when it's heavy equipment to Benghazi, where it is, you know, the, oh, I forget his
23:24name, the guy who is Khalifa Haftar, who takes delivery and then takes them by truck
23:30across the desert.
23:31Because there's been, this week, the news has been dominated by a curious case of a
23:36Russian-made military transport plane shot down in North Darfur, each side claiming the
23:43plane was supplying the other side.
23:45The RSF says the plane took off after a delivery, an airdrop to a delivery to the army in the
23:53besieged city of Al Fasher.
23:56But until recently, it was documented that this plane was supplying the rebels with flights
24:01via Chad.
24:03Among the documents found on the deceased, the expired passport of 67-year-old Victor
24:10Granov.
24:11It's not confirmed that it's him, but there's a suspicion it may be.
24:15A 2005 report by Amnesty International identifies Granov as a South Africa-based businessman,
24:21formerly associated with Russian arms trader Victor Boot, who was recently swapped for.
24:30Not so recently.
24:32And who's back in business, by the way.
24:36It's a wonderful situation.
24:37I mean, the crazy world we live in.
24:39Yeah, but hold on.
24:40Arms dealers, they deliver, it's plausible they could deliver to either side?
24:44The Russians are delivering weapons to both sides.
24:47Yeah.
24:47Both sides.
24:49Yes.
24:49And actually, the drones that were delivered by the Iranians to Burhan are countermanded
24:58by the artillery that is delivered to Hemeti through Khalifa Haftar and by the way of Benghazi.
25:06And these guys go through Chad.
25:09You know, the Russians don't give a damn.
25:11The only thing that matters is gold.
25:14And they are getting a lot of it from both sides.
25:17And you know, it was interesting that Hemeti flew to Moscow as soon as Putin attacked the Ukraine.
25:25He flew the next day.
25:28And he was asking Putin, because that I know from inside sources.
25:33He was asking Putin, does that change anything to our arrangements?
25:37And Putin said, no, no, no, no problem.
25:40Because Putin actually has a lot of the Sudanese gold under his own hands.
25:46And they are used to bypass various instances in the Russian government.
25:51Because Putin, of course, is the boss in Russia.
25:55But that doesn't stop the fact that there are structures and ways of doing things.
26:00And that unmarked money is wonderful.
26:05And so the result is that Russians are working for both sides.
26:09And they don't care.
26:10They couldn't care less.
26:10But I think, Jafar Mohamed, concerning this particular incident of the plane,
26:15I think Russians, yes, before the war, Russians were there.
26:21They're providing both sides arms and all that.
26:24But when this war intensifies and has reached a highest level, I think all this movement,
26:31suspected, you know, suspicious movement around Sudan on delivering weapons and all that,
26:38the Emiratis are behind this.
26:40The Emiratis are the ones who are paying anyone that can be able to deliver weapons in Darfur.
26:47Because what we have, you know, also we have here several reports that, you know, I mean,
26:53there are, you know, the Russian experts and all that in Darfur.
26:58But when you trace back, I think you'll see the footprint of Emiratis are all
27:05everywhere in Darfur.
27:07All right, just a word, because the BRICS summit concluded this Thursday.
27:10The elephant in the room was Ukraine, with participants backing rival sides at times.
27:15But it could have just as well been Sudan, what with Egypt squarely behind General Buran,
27:20while Russia, he is more on the side of the RSF, says our panel.
27:28By the way, the gold that goes to the Gulf, well, you can think about it when you see
27:35these images on the eve of the summit, Putin hosting a dinner for Emirati President Mohammed
27:41bin Zayed al-Nayyam, M-B-Z, as he's otherwise known.
27:50Dalia Abdel-Moneim, a question for you on, again,
27:55what does this story about the plane that was shot down tell you?
27:59Like members of this panel both said, Russia is playing both sides.
28:04But seeing these pictures of M-B-Z with Putin, the United States released a statement,
28:10joint statement with the UAE talking about their partnership.
28:14And Sudan was given two paragraphs, seeing that they will endeavor with their humanitarian aid.
28:19And like it's been well reported and documented by the likes of the Washington Post, New York
28:24Times, and even the United Nations, the UAE is supplying the RSF with weapons.
28:29So they want to help us with one hand and kill us with the other, so to speak.
28:34So M-B-Z meeting with Putin, it's just, this is the world, you know, politics at play.
28:41You know, you go for what's in your best interest.
28:44And unfortunately, what's in their best interest is not in the best interest of Sudan,
28:49nor of its civilians.
28:50And unfortunately, we are the ones who are paying the price.
28:52It's neither Hamid Dino Burhan who are paying the price of this war.
28:55It's us, you know, civilians, Sudanese, who've been forced to flee,
28:59they're forced to leave their homes and leave everything behind.
29:03And we're basically in no man's land.
29:05We're just, we can't go anywhere.
29:07We can't move.
29:07And some of us who couldn't leave Sudan are facing the barrel of the artillery weaponry.
29:14They're being killed.
29:15And so this, you know, this video, this meeting, the shooting down of the plane,
29:21you know, it will continue.
29:22They will continue to supply arms.
29:24They will continue to give assistance to both sides,
29:28and both sides will continue killing the civilians.
29:30And like I said-
29:32Sorry, yeah, I was just going to put to Gérard Preunier, because, again,
29:36the route for these planes to get into Darfur is to go via Chad.
29:41That's according to what's called the Sudan Conflict Observatory out of the United States.
29:49What's Chad's role in all of this?
29:51Chad is trying to stay, keep in one piece.
29:56Because, you know, since Debbie's father died in mysterious circumstances-
30:02Officially in battle.
30:04Officially in battle.
30:06I'm not sure at all he died in battle.
30:07Actually, you should know that more, because-
30:10I don't know.
30:11There are enough Zahrawa around in the neighborhood to know what actually happened.
30:17And, you know, this country is on the verge of disintegrating.
30:22And because the Zahrawa who control that country represents 3% of the population.
30:29And, you know, it could fall apart very easily.
30:34You know, it could fall apart very easily.
30:38So Debbie is trying to survive.
30:45So he's giving openings to the Russians one way or the other.
30:51And if they want to send something to Hemeti, good.
30:55They want to send something to Burhan, good also.
30:59Because actually his problem is not there.
31:02He's not Chadian.
31:04He's- I'm sorry.
31:07He's not Darfurian.
31:08And so he's trying to survive in a very difficult situation.
31:13And the Russians project a shadow over the whole show.
31:18Claire Saint-Philippine, I'm not going to draw you on politics.
31:20You work for a humanitarian aid organization.
31:23But tell us what it was like on the Chadian side.
31:29How tense it felt and how much of a strain it was on the local population.
31:35Maybe just before, I can't talk about politics or about guns,
31:39but I just wanted to talk about what guns do to people.
31:43And really, in Sudan, people continue to die due to violence-related injuries day in and day out.
31:51And here I want to talk about what our teams are witnessing in Omdurman and in South Khartoum,
31:58where we continue to support hospitals.
32:02In Omdurman, we have hit the very sad mark of over 10,000 war-wounded treated since August 2023.
32:11So that's an extremely high number.
32:13And in South Khartoum Hospital, we support Al-Bashir Hospital.
32:17Since the beginning of the year only, we've treated over 3,000 trauma cases.
32:23And just two days ago, we received 39 patients coming to the hospital
32:29after an airstrike that hit less than a kilometre away from the hospital.
32:34And some children were already dead on arrival, and 11 more were severely burnt.
32:40We're seeing, since the beginning of the offensive,
32:43increased number of violent cases, gunshot wounds, and bomb blasts.
32:47So it's important to bear that in mind, that on a daily basis,
32:52people continue to be hurt because of violence.
32:57And that's very much because of that violence,
32:59that people flee to Chad, where they hope to seek safety.
33:04So at the border, the women I talked to were really in a very, very difficult situation.
33:12And it was very clear that they didn't leave their country because they wanted to.
33:17They left their country because they had no other choice,
33:20particularly because of the excruciating violence
33:24that has been going on for months now in Al-Fasher.
33:28And one of, you know, our local doctor was telling me and was very moved
33:33that one of his patients who had diabetes couldn't stop crying,
33:38was an elderly Sudanese woman, and she never left her village in Darfur near Al-Fasher.
33:44She never wanted to leave.
33:45And she had to leave because her entire family left.
33:49So very difficult stories there and people really who suffered violence in Sudan,
33:55but then also came to for safety.
33:58And unfortunately, a lot of them were malnourished.
34:03And again, how much of a strain is it on,
34:07what did you witness in terms of the strain on the Chadian side of
34:12all these arrivals, all these refugees?
34:14Well, I can't really necessarily, you know, talk to that.
34:18But what I can tell you is that the health services, we have a mobile clinic
34:22and the services that we offer are both, you know, for people who come from Sudan
34:26and also for the Chadian community who lives there.
34:31And so the situation in Chad is obviously challenging
34:34as far as the humanitarian situation is concerned.
34:38So we're very much aware of that.
34:39And that's why, Tina, the health services,
34:42the health services that the mobile clinic that we offer is open to both.
34:47The majority of the people who come are Sudanese,
34:49but we also treat some Chadian.
34:52And we've just started a vaccination campaign
34:54that is both for refugees and also the host community.
34:58All right.
34:58So Claire pointing out that guns getting in easier than a humanitarian aid, it seems.
35:05And while MBZ was in Russia over in Riyadh, MBS hosting the U.S. secretary of state,
35:13Mohammed bin Salman, who, along with Washington, have been trying to co-sponsor
35:19some kind of a mediation to get peace talks off the ground.
35:25It was kind of interesting in that respect to see those images.
35:30And Sudan did get a mention in the statements from there, a passing mention, at least.
35:37Is it more than a passing mention, Dalia Abdelmoneim?
35:40Are there serious efforts being undertaken?
35:45I don't think so.
35:46I think they're trying or they pretend to be trying, but not much effort.
35:52Because if they wanted to, you know, levers can be pulled
35:56and they can apply more pressure on both sides to somehow end the war.
36:00But they're not.
36:01So what we're trying to do right now in the civic society
36:05side is to push for more attention to be given to the protection of civilians.
36:11Because if we can't get a ceasefire, then at least we can try and work and
36:16get protection for the civilians, because, you know,
36:19they're the ones who are bearing the brutal brunt of this war.
36:23And the protection of civilians should not be contingent on there being a ceasefire reached.
36:28Because it's obvious, neither Burhan nor Hamidi have any interest in ending this war
36:33without one of them emerging victorious.
36:35And by the looks of it, you know, neither side is going to give up or give in anytime soon.
36:40So the next thing that needs to be the top of the agenda is the protection of civilians.
36:45And I think this is where-
36:47How do you do that?
36:49You can create safe zones, you know, create, you know, make sure, you know, create safe zones.
36:55You can send in a hybrid protection unit made up of African Union troops, for example,
37:02like they did for Darfur back in 2007, I think, after the Darfur War.
37:07You can do the same thing this time, because it's not just one area of Sudan that's being,
37:12you know, pummeled by, you know, war.
37:15It's the whole country that's being pummeled by war.
37:17And civilians need protection.
37:19So you can create safe zones.
37:20You can, for example, declare that areas like schools, churches, mosques, you know, and,
37:26you know, safe-
37:27These are safe areas, playgrounds, you know, don't attack, no indiscriminate bombings.
37:33Protect them.
37:34Don't make it contingent on there being a ceasefire.
37:37And then you go in and try and protect the civilians,
37:38because by then there might not be any civilians left.
37:40We're a population of 44 million, and more than half of us have either-
37:45more than 10 million of us have already been displaced,
37:47and more than half of us are facing famine.
37:50So where's the protection for that?
37:52You know, if the idea that people are dying from lack of food in this day and age is not shocking,
37:58I don't know what else can shock people into taking action,
38:01into actually having a sense of urgency about what's happening in Sudan.
38:04Jafar Mohamed Sainin, it's due to come up, by the way, next week
38:08at the United Nations in New York,
38:10but they're already pouring cold water on the idea of any kind of peacekeeping force.
38:14So the idea of some kind of hybrid force to protect civilians,
38:17that's a dream deferred at this point, it seems.
38:19Well, let me firstly disagree with you, with Dalia,
38:23because this is, you know, one of the reasons
38:26what is prolonging this war is this false narrative of two sides.
38:32There is only one side that is creating all this suffering,
38:37tragedies, and all this problem.
38:40Today, for example, who is fleeing from Darfur?
38:43The citizens.
38:44Who's attacking them?
38:46Who's burning villages in north of Darfur,
38:49where there are no presence of the SAF?
38:53Who is burning villages and killing civilians,
38:56pushing them towards Chad, in west of Darfur, not the SAF?
39:00Who is today taking revenge, campaign of revenge,
39:03in places like on 45 villages in east of Al-Jazeera?
39:10We're hearing-
39:11Al-Jazeera state.
39:12Yes, shocking report of killing-
39:15I'm sorry, what's the job of-
39:17Please, please, please, please, please, please,
39:19let me finish my point.
39:20The army is protecting us.
39:21Let me finish my point, let me finish my point.
39:25I did not disturb, let me finish my point.
39:28You see, who's killing them?
39:30So if we want to stop this war, the solution of this,
39:34you know, the international peacekeeping forces,
39:38and these ideas are propagated by the political wing,
39:44what they call the taqaddum, the civil,
39:47you know, the political parties.
39:50That's who became, for the Sudanese,
39:51became the political incubator of this militia,
39:55who is committing the heinous crime in history.
39:58So to stop this war, you have to address,
40:01there is an aggressor and there is a defender.
40:03Who's attacking al-Fashir?
40:04This is the question people need to answer.
40:07And instead of going around and trying to just create
40:09this false narrative and propagate their political agenda
40:13on our expense, our people are dying.
40:15Who is shelling the hospitals?
40:18Okay, so you're saying one side is to blame,
40:19Dalia Abdel-Moneim.
40:21Yeah, can I just-
40:21It's only one side to blame.
40:23I am not taqaddum.
40:24I have never been taqaddum.
40:26I'm not accusing you to be a taqaddum,
40:27but you know, your language, your language, your language.
40:30One at a time, one at a time.
40:31Your language.
40:32Dalia Abdel-Moneim.
40:33So what you are, you know,
40:34what you are saying is indicative of taqaddum.
40:39The people of Fashir, the people of Al-Jazeera,
40:41the people of Kordofan, they're all being killed
40:43and they're being killed by both sides.
40:45We need to protect them.
40:46I am not saying the RSF is an angel
40:49and I am not saying SAF is an angel.
40:51But what I am saying is that the civilians
40:53are the ones who are paying the price
40:54because they are the ones who are being killed by-
40:56The latest report, the latest report,
40:58the latest report coming from local sources
41:02in Al-Jazeera state.
41:03You are talking about 45 villages
41:06have been run over by Rabi support forces,
41:09killing, mutilating-
41:11That's this week's news cycle.
41:12We do have, we have seen those indiscriminate
41:15airstrikes on the capital
41:16and that's been done by government forces.
41:17We don't want to justify what is taking place
41:20from the other side,
41:21but there is an aggressor and there is a defender.
41:24This is how the thing should be.
41:28Gérard Preunier, this change of allegiance
41:32of that RSF general in Al-Jazeera state,
41:35what does that tell you?
41:37What it tells me that, you know,
41:39there are three wars going on at the same time.
41:42It's a territorial war, it's an ethnic war
41:46and it's a social war.
41:49The social aspect was you could expect
41:51that some poor Arabs would side with the RSF.
41:56So this was a kind of example,
41:58although I was told that the guy in question
42:00was a common criminal, but that's all right.
42:03Common criminals are part of civil wars.
42:05This is normal everywhere.
42:08And, you know, he was a guy who joined the enemy,
42:14you know, because he was an Arab,
42:15he was a Shukria and, you know,
42:18so he should not have been on that side.
42:21He should have been on the government side
42:23with what we call the sons of the country.
42:30These are the people from the Nile Valley.
42:33This should have been his side.
42:35But he came from an Arab tribe
42:39that was considered to be a carpet,
42:42you know, to be used by other Arabs
42:44for whatever they wanted,
42:46like agricultural work in the farms and so on.
42:50So he joined the rebels, fine.
42:52And then he probably realized,
42:54oh, no, there is more money to be made on the other side.
42:57So he went back to what he was.
42:59He was a major general in the government's army.
43:02He joined the rebels.
43:03Now he joined back to government.
43:05This is civil war.
43:07Right.
43:07I think it shows the complexity.
43:09We're out of time.
43:10Dalia Abdelmonim, just a quick question
43:12because we're really out of time.
43:14Have you any news of your home in Khartoum?
43:18No, nothing.
43:20I have no idea what's happened to our house
43:22or what's happened to our neighborhood.
43:25No news from any neighbors?
43:26You haven't been able to contact anyone?
43:29Nothing.
43:30Our area is still under control by the RSF.
43:35Well, we wish you the best.
43:36And we thank you so much for joining us here from Cairo.
43:38I want to thank Jaffar Mohamed Hussainine,
43:41Claire Saint-Philippot from Brussels,
43:44Gérard Prunier.
43:45Thank you for being with us here in the France24 debate.