#fazalurrehman #constitutionalamendments #muhammadmalick #BilawalBhutto #ptiprotest #supremecourt
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NewsTranscript
00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, you are watching Khabar Lahariya, I am Muhammad Malik.
00:03There is only one problem in the whole of Pakistan.
00:06One small problem was what will happen to the cricket test match.
00:09Right now Pakistan is in a good position.
00:11Let's see if they play a game in the morning or not.
00:13Anyway, the second serious problem is the constitutional amendments.
00:16Yesterday we gave you the basic news that PMLN has backed off from the Constitutional Court.
00:24And now we are talking about the Constitutional Benches.
00:27They have used the word Constitutional Division in the bill that has been submitted to the committee today.
00:35Now the issue is what is left to fight about.
00:38Two or three big things.
00:40As we speak, the JUI has started its meeting.
00:43After that, there is a meeting with the PTI.
00:46And what are the two or three big fights?
00:49Maulana Falcon Rahman thinks that the current Chief Justice, who is to be appointed immediately,
00:54should be according to the old principles.
00:56That is, the senior most person, i.e. Justice Mansoor, automatically becomes the Chief Justice.
01:02According to the draft of the PMLN, the Special Parliamentary Committee will forward one name from the three senior most judges.
01:12And that name will be binding and the President will name it.
01:17Now the senior most judges are also in a very interesting situation.
01:20Justice Mansoor Ali Shah is there.
01:23Then Justice Muneeb Akhtar is there.
01:25Justice Muneeb Akhtar has no doubt that the government will also recommend him.
01:29And Maulana's own formula will also work.
01:32Third number is Mr. Yahya Afridi.
01:34Mr. Yahya Afridi's reputation is very strong.
01:37Straight as an arrow.
01:38Neither right nor left.
01:40He follows the letter of the law.
01:42Justice Mansoor Ali Shah's reputation is also the same.
01:44But the experience of PMLN and his allies,
01:48they probably count him as from another camp.
01:53And especially the decision of 63A, the decision of reserve seats,
01:58after all these things, they think that maybe he is not.
02:02One thing will be resolved between PMLN and Maulana that what is going on here.
02:08Maulana gave another concession to the People's Party after his meeting
02:12that the constitutional benches that he was talking about,
02:14the People's Party used to call them courts.
02:16So he has also talked about the same benches at the provincial level
02:21So the bench is now done.
02:23And the court within the court is being formed.
02:26Now we have to see that if this constitutional court,
02:30which is the document of the government,
02:32is a draft,
02:33within this, the Judicial Commission of Pakistan will recommend him.
02:38The current existence of the Judicial Commission of Pakistan,
02:41if it is according to this,
02:43then I think all the exercises will fail,
02:45which are the government's own intentions.
02:47Because that does not go in their favor.
02:49So clearly there is a change coming in it.
02:51And it will come.
02:53These are 3-4 sensitive subjects.
02:55We will talk about them in today's program.
02:57I have been joined by Barrister Aqeel Malik.
02:59He is an advisor, MNA of the Ministry of Law and Justice.
03:02You became an independent elect and then came to the party in PMLN.
03:06Yes.
03:07So you put your freedom here.
03:09No, I was a non-league from the beginning.
03:12So obviously.
03:13Okay.
03:14Contested independently.
03:15Why?
03:16There was a seat adjustment.
03:17Okay.
03:18And we are joined by Salman Akram Rajat,
03:20General Secretary of PTI and a senior lawyer.
03:23First, I will ask a few questions to Aqeel.
03:26Because I have spoken to Salman a while ago.
03:29I recorded the segment because he had to go to the JUI meeting.
03:33So we said, let's see what he does there.
03:35But Barrister, let's start with you.
03:37First question.
03:38There is a difference.
03:41First question.
03:42There is a difference.
03:44If the committee has to appoint someone,
03:47and they come to the Constitutional Court first.
03:50You have come to the bench.
03:51You have left the court.
03:52You have given it a name.
03:54Constitutional Division.
03:55Maybe you are giving it a name.
03:57If the Judicial Commission of Pakistan has to recommend
04:00and make a bench and do everything,
04:02then you are free in the current condition of the bench commission.
04:09So are you changing that?
04:11Thank you very much, Mr. Malik.
04:13Look, nothing has reached a final stage yet.
04:17Let's talk about your intentions.
04:19What are your intentions?
04:20Definitely, for the appointment of judges,
04:24we said that the Parliamentary Committee should have a meaningful, purposeful role.
04:29Two MNAs and two Senators.
04:31They should have equal representation from the Senate and National Assembly.
04:35There should be a Constitutional Bench.
04:40Because obviously,
04:41there should be representation from all the provinces.
04:45If Mr. Maulana's suggestion was that
04:47the five Senators, including the Chief Justice,
04:51should have a Constitutional Bench.
04:53Of course, we are considering it.
04:55And this is not a big deal.
04:57We have taken the lead on the People's Party.
05:01Whether it is a Constitutional Court or a Constitutional Bench,
05:03it doesn't make any difference.
05:05Actually, the trickle-down effect should be beneficial to the public.
05:11Because most of the time,
05:13the cases of politicians,
05:15the cases of political minorities,
05:17which come under the ambit of the Constitution,
05:19those cases eat up 90% of the time.
05:23And of course, if appeals are not being made…
05:25The question is very simple.
05:27Are you changing the current condition of the Judicial Commission of Pakistan?
05:31Entirely possible.
05:33It can be done.
05:35I gave you an example.
05:37For the appointment of the judges,
05:39which was the government's recommendation,
05:41we played a meaningful, purposeful role
05:43and gave input that we should not be used as a rubber stamp.
05:46Now, if a Constitutional Bench is formed,
05:48and all the provinces are also being talked about as representatives,
05:51then obviously,
05:53there should be ad-hoc judges
05:55because there is no representation from any province.
05:57What did Mr. Maulana do in this?
05:59You said that the Judicial Commission…
06:01We accept the bets.
06:03And you should reconstitute the Judicial Commission.
06:05Is Mr. Maulana ready to do that?
06:07Mr. Maulana said on the floor of the House,
06:09even for the appointment of the Chief Justice of Somos,
06:13he said on the floor of the House
06:15that we should not just look at the Seniority Principle.
06:19But in this draft, they are saying
06:21that this time, we should put three people on the bench
06:23and change things from the next bench.
06:25No, these things are still under discussion.
06:27And it is not final that
06:29three senior posts should be included
06:31or five should be included
06:33as per the Chief Justice's recommendation.
06:35If we take your formula of three senior posts,
06:37then between Mr. Mansoor Ali Shah,
06:39Mr. Muneeb Akhtar,
06:41forget Muneeb Akhtar,
06:43between Mr. Yahya Fareedi and Mr. Mansoor Ali Shah,
06:45who do you think has a better chance?
06:47Look, for us,
06:49all the judges,
06:51the Honorable Judges,
06:53should be included.
06:55You should know that
06:57whatever you say about the judges,
06:59you say that we have to do judicial reform
07:01because all the judges,
07:03some are their judges and some are theirs,
07:05you have removed the limits of the judges.
07:07No, we have not claimed that
07:09this is ours or theirs,
07:11we have never said that.
07:13We have always said that
07:15decisions should be made
07:17according to the law.
07:19Mr. Bandyar, he was your judge.
07:21Look, I am not saying that.
07:23Decisions should be made
07:25according to the law.
07:27Who was a better Chief Justice?
07:29Let me ask you a simple question.
07:31Was Umar Atta Bandyar
07:33a better Chief Justice or
07:35Faiz Isha was a better Chief Justice?
07:37Look, I will not comment on this
07:39because they have their own judgments.
07:41I will judge them.
07:43Generally speaking,
07:45both are good and both are right.
07:47Who is better?
07:49There is no debate about
07:51who is better.
07:53I will judge them
07:55according to their judgments.
07:57I have seen their judgments
07:59and I think both are right.
08:01Till now you have not issued
08:03a notification.
08:05We have a deadline of 24th
08:07of the Ministry of Law.
08:09Some have a deadline of 3 months,
08:11some have a deadline of a month,
08:13some have a deadline of 20 days.
08:15Some have a deadline of 4 days.
08:17Some have a deadline of 4 days.
08:19I have announced the full reference
08:21of the person who will be going.
08:23You have not mentioned the person
08:25who will be coming.
08:27If these constitutional amendments
08:29are passed, if there is a change
08:31then we will have to see.
08:33Let us listen to some of the
08:35questions I have received from
08:37Salman Akram Raja.
08:39I want your opinion on the same
08:41questions.
08:43Let us listen to what
08:45PTI Secretary General
08:47has to say.
09:17I will tell you why I asked.
09:41I am asking because
09:43there is a front page story
09:45in Don.
09:47There are stories in different
09:49publications.
09:51There are a lot of differences
09:53in your party.
09:55There was a very severe
09:57verbal clash between
09:59Hamad Azhar and Ameen Gaddapur.
10:01He said that you have disappeared
10:03and you are talking about Punjab.
10:05He said that you are not doing it.
10:07Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:09that you have disappeared.
10:11He said that you are not doing it.
10:13Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:15that you are not doing it.
10:17Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:19that you are not doing it.
10:21Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:23that you are not doing it.
10:25Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:27that you are not doing it.
10:29Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:31that you are not doing it.
10:33Gohar, the chairman, did not deny
10:35that you are not doing it.
10:37Sometimes it happens that
10:39the threat of protest is better
10:41and if the protest is weak,
10:43the loss is the opposite.
10:47As far as the differences are concerned,
10:49this is a big issue.
10:51This is a big issue.
10:53There are a lot of people
10:55who understand why they want
10:57to spread this story.
10:59There is a discussion.
11:01There are different opinions.
11:03But to say that there is a group
11:05that is not comfortable
11:07is not a good thing.
11:09The group is not a good thing.
11:11The group is not a good thing.
11:13It is a matter of choice of words.
11:15It is a matter of choice of words.
11:17It is a matter of choice of words.
11:19The kind of sentences that were exchanged
11:21were very threatening.
11:23It is a conversation.
11:25It is a discussion.
11:27There is nothing else.
11:29It is a discussion.
11:31After that, it is decided
11:33You can criticize on that, that the decision should have been like this or like that.
11:37Here also you can see that some people who have no relation with PTI,
11:41in fact if you look at the journalistic level, they continuously write against PTI.
11:47They suddenly become sympathizers of a point of view that that point of view was right,
11:52the rest are all traitors.
11:54So I understand that the narrative of treachery, who spreads it, where does it come from?
11:59Some people unfortunately fall prey to that narrative.
12:03That's all I have to say in this regard.
12:05Okay, tell me, two things have become clear in front of you.
12:09Yesterday we also broke this news that the decision has been made that
12:12the Constitutional Court will not be formed, but the Constitutional Bench will be formed.
12:16Today the draft of the government came to the committee,
12:19in that the word used was the Constitutional Division of the Supreme Court.
12:23In the draft of the Constitutional Court, they are saying that you are the Chief Justice,
12:30you are the five most senior judges.
12:32In the draft of the government by the PMLN, it says that the Judicial Commission will decide
12:38how many judges will be there and what will happen, how it will happen.
12:42So if we are talking about the Judicial Bench, you can call it a division or a bench,
12:47what stance does PTI have in this?
12:52Look, our big stance is that this Parliament does not have any right to a constitutional amendment.
12:58A constitutional amendment should not be made at this time.
13:01Secondly, the way in which a constitutional amendment is being made,
13:04everything is being kept secret, and along with it,
13:07coercion is being done, daughters, daughters-in-law, wives are being abducted.
13:11This is an extremely despicable act, we do not want to be a part of it.
13:15But since Maulana Sahab has taken a stand against this very bad package
13:21which came from the government and has asked us for advice,
13:24we have reached out to him, we have given him advice,
13:27so that if there is going to be a disruption, it should be less of a disruption.
13:30The constitution of Maulana Sahab's JUI is correct.
13:34Now if it is being said that the Commission will decide the bench,
13:39their intention from day one was that the judges in the Supreme Court
13:43who have shown courage against the injustices of Muqtadara,
13:47who have stood up, who were attacked during the election,
13:50who had a strong judgement, after which whatever happened,
13:53they negated it in a way, the decision of the reserved seats,
13:57which was made by 8 judges.
13:59To punish those 8 judges, to remove them from the path,
14:02is the main objective of this entire constitutional package.
14:05If to achieve that objective, they make a commission,
14:09which will have a majority of government officials,
14:12and by sidelining them, they make the judges of their choice sit in that division or bench,
14:17which will be called the Reserved Bench or Reserved Division,
14:20then the matter comes back to where it was tried to be taken through a Reserved Court.
14:26We will oppose that.
14:28In a while, I will meet Maulana Fazlur Rehman Sahab and his team.
14:32Then it will be clarified, what is the position of the government,
14:35and what is the position of the JUI.
14:37Secondly, what they are talking about,
14:39the government draft is being discussed by the Parliamentary Committee,
14:42and it will recommend one of the three most senior judges.
14:45If we look at the game right now,
14:47then there is Mansoor Shah, Justice Muneeb, and then there is Justice Jaya Afridi.
14:52Justice Muneeb will definitely not be recommended if a committee is formed.
14:57And the other two may be Mansoor Shah or Jaya Afridi.
15:03If Jaya Afridi's name is mentioned, will the PTI have an objection?
15:11Look, the objection will not be on any name.
15:14If this package is passed in this form,
15:18and as a result, a judge is appointed as a CJP,
15:24then that will be done.
15:26We will definitely object to this recommendation to the extent of the package.
15:31This will mean that the three senior judges will always be bowing their heads,
15:36will try to be obedient and obedient,
15:39so that the government of Muqtadara comes to our name.
15:43This will be a very dangerous and destructive thing for justice.
15:47It should not be done at all,
15:49that you hang the greed of a position in front of three.
15:54No one is better than the greed of this position.
15:57Therefore, we will oppose this recommendation.
16:00Let's see what happens.
16:01And Mansoor Ali Shah has a right to become the CJP on 26 October.
16:07He should get this right.
16:09Any amendment should be made for the future.
16:12Okay.
16:13Secondly, if you like Maulana's draft so much,
16:17then he has made an amendment in a form.
16:20That is Article 70 clause 1.
16:25In that, he has said that now this will also be a condition
16:29that whatever law, whatever bill is brought in the parliament,
16:34it should be immediately sent to the Islamic Ideology Council
16:38and asked from them to cover Islamic or whatever.
16:44This will then establish Mullahism,
16:46because then the parliament will be controlled by Mullahs.
16:50Because on the Islamic Ideology Council,
16:53in the past, we have seen such decisions of the IDC,
16:56that it is mind-boggling.
16:58When Shirani Sahib was its chairman,
17:00the views about his women and the cave mentality that he used to talk about,
17:06do you support that the Islamic Ideology Council
17:10should first tick-mark every bill and then go ahead with the process?
17:17Look, our focus right now is on the matter of the Constitutional Court or the Constitutional Bench.
17:23The rest of the things are not of that importance for us right now.
17:30We will not support anything.
17:32I have said that we will not vote on this package.
17:36Whatever package comes, whether it is Mr. Murana's, Musab-e-Da, or someone else's,
17:41we do not believe in the validity of this parliament,
17:44we do not believe in this entire process,
17:46we stand against this compulsion, so we will not vote.
17:49No, we do not even want your vote.
17:52You do not even have a vote in this,
17:54so the government has to bring numbers and tell them.
17:56Okay, okay, so your question is,
17:58you see, the question would have been asked if we had taken a decision.
18:01No, I am taking your opinion.
18:03I want to know what you all agree on with the JUI.
18:08Who are you agreeing on?
18:10Because this is not an isolated issue.
18:12This is a matter of changing the entire country's system
18:16if you give absolute veto to a religious group.
18:21No, I am saying that this issue is not a part of our discussion or debate.
18:26Our discussion with the JUI is about the Constitutional Court or the Constitutional Bench.
18:32What other suggestions do they have?
18:35Of course, they are a community, they have their own views.
18:38It is up to them, it is up to them.
18:41As far as this is concerned, if we talk on an academic level,
18:46our Constitution says that the Council of Islamic Ideology
18:50can give an opinion on any law.
18:53See, even now, if they want, they can give an opinion.
18:56And it is written in the Constitution that their opinion will not dominate the parliament.
19:01The parliament will look at their opinion and decide.
19:04But this amendment will dominate.
19:07This amendment will be a prerequisite.
19:10No, it is not.
19:11It is being said that they will be sent.
19:13It is not being said that their opinion will be restricted by the parliament.
19:17What I have read in the Constitution, it is not like that.
19:20The only difference is that earlier it was that the council should look at it.
19:23Here it is being said that you should send them.
19:25This is a procedural change.
19:27And it is not written that it will dominate.
19:30In fact, I spoke to a member of the Council of Islamic Ideology,
19:34who is a part of this process.
19:36He told me that we did not talk about dominating.
19:39We just said that you should take their opinion.
19:42After that, the parliament will decide.
19:44This is still the case.
19:45This means that it was not so unnecessary for you.
19:48You have discussed a particular clause.
19:50See, this is not an issue.
19:51We do not have to vote.
19:52If we had to vote, then we would have said that we will not vote on this issue.
19:57Sir, tell me one thing.
19:58We will vote for anything.
20:00Let's come back to the Constitutional Bench.
20:02That is your primary concern at the moment.
20:04Maulana's formula is very simple in his draft.
20:07He says that Chief Justice plus five senior judges.
20:10That is very good.
20:11The government has said that the number…
20:13There is no pick and choose in that.
20:15In the draft that has just come out of the government,
20:17they have said that the number and terms to be decided by the Judicial Commission of Pakistan.
20:22If the identity of the Judicial Commission is not changed,
20:25because it is not written in the draft that we are changing the Judicial Commission,
20:30then you should not worry about that.
20:32Because there are Chief Justices, four senior judges,
20:36then there will be a former Chief Justice or Judge who will nominate the Chief Justice.
20:40There is a Law Minister, Attorney General and a representative of the Pakistan Bar Council.
20:44If we look at the current composition of the Judicial Commission,
20:52then there are six or two.
20:54If you do the maximum, then there is a majority of five or three like-minded people
21:00from whom you should not worry.
21:02So if they do not change the Judicial Commission,
21:05then do you have any objection to the formula of the government
21:09that the Judicial Commission should decide the terms and numbers of the judges?
21:12Because the Judicial Commission is very favourable for you at the moment.
21:15No, because it is not favourable in front of me,
21:20when I will meet Mr. Murana, he may share this with me.
21:25But in principle, if the Judicial Commission is the same as it is now,
21:31then it can be a livable proposal.
21:35But if we look at the history of the Judicial Commission,
21:39then it is like this that sometimes the Judicial Commission meets with the government.
21:44The Chief Justice and Senior Judges meet with the Law Minister and Attorney General.
21:50Similarly, the representatives of the Pakistan Bar Council are also a political party.
21:55If they belong to the same group as the government,
21:59or the government is supportive,
22:03then they meet with the government's opinion,
22:06that is, with the Minister of Law and Attorney General.
22:09And if these three people get three judges who agree with them,
22:15then the government gets what it wants.
22:18If we look at the past 12-13 months,
22:20which is the time of Qazi Sahib,
22:22in this, every wish of the government has been fulfilled.
22:26But Mr. Salman, because we are talking about a specific situation,
22:32so let's go by a thing.
22:35This is not a very bad thing.
22:38Look, it is possible that the Constitutional Division will be appointed in a dispassionate manner.
22:47This is not a very bad idea.
22:49But I will have to see the extent of this.
22:51Because if the government does not change the identity of the Judicial Commission,
22:57then if Mansoor Ali Shah becomes the Chief Justice,
23:00Muneeb Akhtar will not go with the government,
23:03or even Mr. Faridi.
23:05They are people who go straight and narrow.
23:07A lot of people may have objections to Amiruddin Khan Sahib,
23:10Mandu Khil Sahib's right or left, whatever.
23:14So, the rest, the judge to be appointed, CJ has to do it himself.
23:19So, numerically...
23:21This is a livable thing.
23:23You are right. This is livable.
23:25Let me see what the details are.
23:28I will go after your program ends.
23:31We will have a meeting.
23:33We will talk about all these things.
23:35Let's see what the details are.
23:37One more thing.
23:38I was surprised when I saw Maulana's draft,
23:41and I was also seeing the draft of the government.
23:43I saw a lot of concern about Article 243.
23:46And in Maulana's draft of the party,
23:49it is written that if any army chief,
23:52if you are appointed in the standard way,
23:56after the appointment,
23:58if there is an extension,
24:00or re-employment,
24:02or some other status,
24:04if that status has to be changed,
24:07then the Prime Minister will not do it,
24:10but a committee, a parliamentary committee,
24:13will decide and send their recommendations to the President,
24:17and they will follow it.
24:19The Prime Minister left in the middle.
24:21The draft of the government is similar to this.
24:24Why did this come in the middle, out of the blue?
24:28Do you think you are understanding the context of this?
24:33Absolutely.
24:35See, the whole issue is this.
24:37In our country,
24:39every two and a half years,
24:41there is an uproar.
24:43This is because any army chief
24:46starts running for the extension,
24:49and the government and the opposition
24:52start contacting each other.
24:54So our country is surrounded by this extension.
24:57The entire political system is subject to the extension.
25:01So either you reject this extension,
25:04completely end it,
25:06people think that they can't do such a thing,
25:10that something else should not happen.
25:13So it seems that
25:15assurance should be given,
25:17a guarantee should be given
25:19that once you get the extension,
25:21even if there is a change in the government,
25:24it will not be ended.
25:26And it will be very difficult to end it.
25:29So that the people sitting here,
25:31whoever they are,
25:33whether it is today or three or four years later,
25:36at least after getting the extension,
25:38there should be assurance.
25:40And the uproar and uproar that is done in our country,
25:43should stop.
25:44So we will have to understand the matter of this extension.
25:47Our entire legal system,
25:49our political system,
25:51revolves around this extension.
25:53So will you support Maulana Sahab on this?
25:56Will you support him on this?
26:01Look, again, I am saying that
26:03we don't have to vote on anything.
26:05No, I am asking for support,
26:07I am not asking for a vote.
26:09Look, I see a clarity in this.
26:11The thing is that
26:13whoever is in office,
26:16he is getting some kind of assurance.
26:19That if you get your extension done,
26:22or your application is done,
26:24then it will not be easily rejected.
26:27You will not be denotified
26:29at the request of a Prime Minister.
26:31So it is okay to give assurance to people
26:33in terms of office.
26:35If in the entire system,
26:37the atmosphere of uproar is reduced,
26:39then it is okay,
26:41one can focus on this.
26:43And 184, the government draft,
26:45the powers of 184,
26:47will then go to the Constitutional Bench.
26:50Okay, okay.
26:52Is there any difference in this?
26:54There is no difference in this.
26:56If this Constitutional Bench
26:58has to look at the legal matters,
27:00then 184.3 says that
27:02it is a matter of public importance,
27:04and the basic rights that are given in the law,
27:06if it is a matter of those,
27:08then it is a legal matter.
27:10When you have made a legal bench,
27:12then this matter should go there.
27:14If there is a legal bench alone,
27:16do you think a court within court
27:18is not being made in the name of a bench?
27:20Because its head is also…
27:22No, look, no, it is not like that.
27:24Look, if you can also put through the rules
27:26that the members of that bench
27:28will work for a year,
27:30then you give space to other people
27:32so that it is a revolving thing,
27:34so that all the judges
27:36get a chance to look at the legal matters.
27:38So this has been happening in India
27:40for the past nine years,
27:42and it has proven to be a good experience.
27:44And this bench,
27:46there is no clarity on this
27:48that if this bench makes a decision,
27:50then does it,
27:52let's say if it is a five-member bench,
27:54if someone makes this decision,
27:56then will there be an appeal
27:58of the Supreme Court,
28:00that what happened is just the finality of it?
28:04Look, if they have to give an appeal,
28:06it is obvious that
28:08they have given an appeal
28:10through an act,
28:12then they will have to keep this space
28:14that if an appeal has to be made
28:16against the decision of a five-member bench,
28:18then there will be a big five-member bench,
28:20an appellate five-member bench,
28:22this will have to be kept,
28:24or the appeal will be terminated.
28:26But there was no appeal
28:28against the Supreme Court's decisions
28:30last year.
28:32This is a complete invention
28:34that an appeal should be made
28:36in a bigger bench than
28:38the Supreme Court.
28:40When you have established
28:42that bench with so much hesitation,
28:44then its decisions should be considered
28:46to be final.
28:48This is the Supreme Court.
28:50There is no better appeal
28:52in the Supreme Court
28:54than the Supreme Court.
28:56Then let me ask you
28:58a scenario.
29:00Tomorrow, as we are hearing,
29:02there is a very serious possibility
29:04that Imran Khan's case
29:06will be challenged.
29:08If it was a normal Supreme Court,
29:10then you would have been asked
29:12to sit in the full court
29:14and decide whether
29:16there could be a trial or not.
29:18If this five-member bench
29:20makes a decision in that matter,
29:22then you yourself are saying
29:24that there should not be an appeal.
29:26Look, some cases get terminated.
29:28I am saying that there was no appeal
29:30before last year.
29:32It was the same case before 2023
29:34that was terminated.
29:36The decision of the five-member bench
29:38was also terminated.
29:40So, we will go to the same place
29:42where we were in 2022
29:44or in the first 3-4 months of 2023.
29:46So, this will not be
29:48a very surprising or
29:50inauspicious thing.
29:52What is your assessment?
29:54Do you see Imran Khan's case
29:56in the military court?
29:58Yesterday, Mohsin Beg came to my program.
30:00He gave the news that
30:02General Faiz Ameer's case
30:04has been terminated.
30:06In that, you will see
30:08where these things go.
30:10And he claimed that
30:12they are going there.
30:14What is your assessment?
30:16Do you think that his case
30:18will ultimately go to the military court?
30:20Yes, it is definitely a danger
30:22and we can understand
30:24that it will happen.
30:26But look, right now,
30:28a bench of the Supreme Court
30:30cannot be used
30:32in the military court.
30:34The appeal of the government
30:36against that decision
30:38is being held
30:40in front of the bench
30:42of the seven judges.
30:44So, this will also
30:46have to be brought
30:48in this amendment package.
30:50Where will that appeal
30:52go?
30:54It will go to the same
30:56seven-member bench
30:58of the Supreme Court.
31:00So, we will have to see
31:02what the current appeals
31:04have to do.
31:06In my opinion,
31:08that appeal should stay
31:10where it is.
31:12Salman, thank you very much
31:14for giving us your time.
31:16Mr. Rajat has said
31:18that if the Judicial Commission
31:20is not changed,
31:22then the constitutional benches
31:24and the judges
31:26will be changed.
31:28This is a livable formula
31:30that can be used
31:32by the PTI.
31:34This is indeed a big statement.
31:36Yes, you heard
31:38what Mr. Salman said.
31:40When you were listening
31:42to the recorded part
31:44of the program,
31:46I came to know
31:48about two or three
31:50latest developments.
31:52The Judicial Commission
31:54and the next
31:56Chief Justice,
31:58I heard that
32:00there is a rethinking
32:02going on.
32:04Let's take a break.
32:06After the break,
32:08I will share more
32:10with you.
32:12Confusion keeps compounding
32:14itself.
32:16Welcome back to the show.
32:18Before the break,
32:20I told you about
32:22PM Allain's suggestion
32:24that the Parliamentary Committee
32:26will recommend one of the three
32:28most senior judges
32:30to the President.
32:32Now,
32:34from a highly reliable source,
32:36I have come to know that
32:38they are taking this number
32:40to five.
32:42The second question is
32:44whether the Judicial Commission
32:46of Pakistan will remain
32:48the same as it is now.
32:50The government
32:52gets a close call.
32:54There is a difference
32:56of two people.
32:58Unless the Chief Justice
33:00is of their choice,
33:02then the equation can change.
33:04If the Chief Justice is neutral
33:06or not of their choice,
33:08then the Judicial Commission
33:10will not work.
33:12The draft says that three top
33:14senior judges will be considered
33:16for the Chief Justice.
33:18We are talking about five.
33:20What number are you thinking?
33:22I can tell you that
33:24there has not been
33:26a final decision yet.
33:28Whether it is three or five,
33:30I gave you an example.
33:32So, five is not wrong.
33:34It is under consideration.
33:36Absolutely.
33:38I think that when they said
33:40not to look at the seniority
33:42principal,
33:44whether it is three or five.
33:46You should have removed
33:48the notification.
33:50Muneeb Akhtar,
33:52we know that you do not like him.
33:54Yaya Fareedi,
33:56he is not with anyone.
33:58Justice Ameenuddin Khan,
34:00he was a hot favorite
34:02of yours in the Constitutional Court.
34:04Muhammad Ali Mandokhil,
34:06you like them a lot.
34:08So, I understand that
34:10you should give names
34:12from the panel of five.
34:14When a consensus is developed
34:16whether it is three or five,
34:18it will be revealed.
34:20There is nothing wrong in it.
34:22If we say that
34:24someone is a favorite
34:26and someone is not,
34:28then it is a sin.
34:30No, there is no sin in it.
34:32All the judges are equal for us.
34:34Whenever you say that
34:36all the judges are equal for us,
34:38then why do you smile?
34:40It is a cynical smile.
34:42I am actually enjoying your analysis.
34:44Judicial Commission.
34:46Yes.
34:48If there are five judges,
34:50then you should do the same.
34:52If there are three judges,
34:54then this judicial commission
34:56will remain the same.
34:58Look, it can be said
35:00that it should be tweaked
35:02and it should have
35:04a better face.
35:06It should have
35:08a better approach
35:10and it should have
35:12a better approach.
35:14I have already told you
35:16that in the first consensus,
35:18it was about the appointment
35:20of judges.
35:22Earlier, when there was
35:24a judicial court,
35:26the formula was very simple.
35:28You had to have a special committee
35:30of 12 members,
35:328 MLAs, 4 Senators.
35:34They had to follow the procedure.
35:36If you make a bench,
35:38how will you select the bench?
35:40Who will decide
35:42who will sit
35:44on the constitutional bench?
35:46Look, I think
35:48if the constitutional division
35:50is based on the bench
35:52and the bench is under consideration,
35:54then of course,
35:56the bench...
35:58Judicial Commission won't do it.
36:00No, we will have to look at it
36:02from the perspective of fresh appointments.
36:04Fresh appointments in the sense
36:06that if the representation
36:08is not complete,
36:10then you have to take
36:12ad-hoc judges.
36:14You have to increase the number
36:16of judges, right?
36:18Yes, the legislation is pending.
36:20Who will select the judges
36:22to increase the number of judges?
36:24Who will select the judges
36:26to increase the number
36:28of judges?
36:30The parliamentary committee
36:32will do it.
36:34It is also true
36:36that if you want to stack
36:38the judges of your choice,
36:40then you have given
36:42a noble idea that
36:44there should be representation
36:46of every province.
36:48If the JUI says that you are
36:50creating a division,
36:52then you can easily
36:54pick and choose
36:56the judges of your choice.
36:58Did you bring judges
37:00of your choice under
37:02the constitution?
37:04No, I don't agree with this.
37:06The reason is that
37:08the representation of the provinces
37:10is important.
37:12If there is a constitutional
37:14dispute between one province
37:16and the federation,
37:18or between the provinces,
37:20then the judges will not
37:22split on the provincial lines.
37:24I am the judge of the
37:26Balochistan Kote.
37:28Will Balochistan expect me
37:30to be the judge of Punjab?
37:32This is the
37:34unsaid principle in the Supreme
37:36Court.
37:38I think it is better
37:40because there should be
37:42representation of the provinces.
37:44Welcome back to the show.
37:46I was looking at the drafts
37:48of the JUI.
37:50Two things are very clear.
37:52If the Chief Justice
37:54has to be recommended
37:56from the top batch,
37:58then you will have to
38:00submit it 14 days in advance.
38:02But this time, you will
38:04have to submit it 4 days in advance.
38:06If the Chief Justice has to
38:08sit in the committee
38:10and make a name for himself,
38:12then you will have
38:14maximum time till Tuesday.
38:16If your amendments pass by
38:18Tuesday, then you will
38:20submit it by 24th.
38:22Otherwise, you will automatically
38:24submit it by 25th.
38:26Our deadline for the
38:28Ministry of Law is
38:3024th.
38:32If the constitutional amendments
38:34do not pass by 24th,
38:36then we will have to
38:38submit it by 24th.
38:40Everyone gets on the plane
38:42with a parachute.
38:44I have heard that you have
38:46a parachute for the Election Commission.
38:48I have heard that on Monday,
38:50the Reserve Seats will be
38:52notified.
38:54Do you have any information
38:56that the Election Commission
38:58will decide on your behalf?
39:00No, I don't have any information.
39:02I think that the Speaker
39:04has also written two letters.
39:06The Election Commission
39:08will have to take a decision.
39:10Considering all the decisions
39:12and our amendments,
39:14we have to complete the
39:16composition of the House.
39:18We don't know
39:20what the Election Commission
39:22will decide on.
39:24I think we should complete
39:26the House by Monday.
39:28Otherwise, there will be
39:30a lot of problems.
39:32People say that everything
39:34is a quid pro quo.
39:36You are removed from the
39:38court, you are removed
39:40from the bench,
39:42you are removed from
39:44a lot of things.
39:46The rest will be known
39:48later.
39:50If the seats are empty
39:52and someone from the
39:54JUI gets elected,
39:56will this be a coincidence?
39:58Will there be a quid pro quo
40:00payback?
40:02I think that
40:04it will be a vacate.
40:06It will be a vacate
40:08because the reference
40:10is against them.
40:12I think that
40:14it is everyone's right
40:16to contest the elections.
40:18If the JUI removes
40:20their candidate and
40:22their position is on the ground,
40:24they will win.
40:26He was with you.
40:28Yes, he was with us.
40:30He joined us in three days.
40:32If the JUI's candidate
40:34is removed,
40:36will the JUI win?
40:38We have given our
40:40reasoning.
40:42We have given our
40:44reasoning that
40:46they did not vote
40:48and abstained.
40:50Let's see.
40:52The name of life is a coincidence.
40:54We don't cast
40:56a question on anyone.
40:58The possibility is that
41:00a bill will be introduced
41:02in the Senate tomorrow.
41:04All the parties will work
41:06till late night.
41:08Burning the midnight oil.
41:10But again, like I said,
41:12if nothing happens,
41:14if the Election Commission
41:16makes a decision on Monday,
41:18the issue of National Assembly
41:20will be solved.
41:22There are other ways in the Senate.
41:24Allah Hafiz.