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00:00:00Quand j'ouvre cette réunion, il y a plusieurs points que j'aimerais mentionner
00:00:07afin que ceux qui ne sont pas au courant des procédures de ce comité
00:00:14puissent suivre les procédures plus facilement.
00:00:18Et il y a d'autres sujets qui doivent attirer votre attention
00:00:22en vue de l'intérêt extensif des médias dans les procédures du comité.
00:00:30Lorsque j'ouvre la réunion, j'inviterai le rapporteur
00:00:36pour faire une petite introduction au comité.
00:00:40J'inviterai ensuite M. Julian Assange
00:00:44pour adresser le comité pendant 12 à 15 minutes.
00:00:49Ensuite, les membres du comité peuvent poser des questions à M. Assange.
00:00:55Ceux-ci devraient être des questions, pas des affirmations.
00:01:02D'abord, les membres du comité peuvent poser une question.
00:01:06S'il y a du temps, j'inviterai les membres du comité
00:01:11à poser des questions supplémentaires, si ils le souhaitent.
00:01:16Si un membre du comité a l'intention de poser plusieurs questions,
00:01:22j'inviterai M. Assange à répondre à la première question,
00:01:26afin que le temps approprié soit donné aux autres membres du comité.
00:01:32Les membres du comité poseront leurs questions
00:01:35lorsqu'ils seront invités par le président.
00:01:39Il faut rappeler que, selon la règle n°48.4,
00:01:44les membres du comité ne peuvent pas parler
00:01:48à l'exception des membres du comité.
00:01:52Si le temps suffisant est donné,
00:01:56j'inviterai les membres du comité à poser des questions à M. Assange.
00:02:03Ces procédés seront enregistrés et diffusés.
00:02:08En plus, les interprèteurs doivent pouvoir suivre les procédés sans difficulté.
00:02:15J'inviterai les membres du comité à ne pas parler à l'exception des membres du comité,
00:02:22à ne pas interrompre,
00:02:25à mettre tous les téléphones en silence,
00:02:30et, s'il y a des gens qui ont besoin d'interagir,
00:02:35ils seront invités à le faire à l'extérieur du hall.
00:02:43Avant de mettre fin à cette discussion,
00:02:46je déclarerai maintenant cette réunion ouverte.
00:02:50Comme vous pouvez le voir de l'agenda de cette réunion,
00:02:55elle est dédiée à l'échange de vues avec M. Julian Assange.
00:03:06Et c'est en lumière du fait que,
00:03:10le dimanche de cette semaine,
00:03:13l'Assemblée parlementaire tiendra un débat
00:03:17sur le rapport préparé par le rapporteur
00:03:22intitulé « L'arrestation et la conviction de Julian Assange
00:03:26et ses effets sur les droits humains ».
00:03:31Je voudrais d'abord demander aux membres du comité
00:03:34d'indiquer s'ils acceptent l'exception à l'agenda.
00:03:38J'accepte l'agenda comme approuvé.
00:03:42M. Assange, merci.
00:03:46M. Assange, merci d'avoir accepté cette réunion.
00:03:50Nous sommes très reconnaissants de ce que vous faites.
00:03:54Merci.
00:04:11Nous nous attendons à un exchange d'opinions informatif.
00:04:15Je voudrais alors inviter le rapporteur à faire une petite introduction.
00:04:19Merci, Sena.
00:04:21Merci, Monsieur le Président.
00:04:23Mes chers collègues, Mesdames et Messieurs,
00:04:25Mes chers Julian et Stella Assange,
00:04:28et Christine,
00:04:30J'ai rencontré Julian Assange en mai dernier
00:04:33quand je l'ai visité dans la prison de Belmarsh
00:04:36lors de mon visite à Londres.
00:04:39Aujourd'hui, je considère que c'est un privilège
00:04:42de dire bienvenue, Julian,
00:04:45à l'Assemblée parlementaire du Conseil d'Europe.
00:04:48Nous sommes très reconnaissants que vous ayez pu voyager
00:04:51tout au long de l'Australie pour apparaître devant
00:04:54le Comité sur les Affaires légales et les droits humains
00:04:57pour discuter de notre rapport sur les effets de détention
00:05:00que votre prison et votre conviction ont eu
00:05:03sur la liberté de la média au monde entier.
00:05:06Au cours des années, Wikileaks a publié et révélé
00:05:10des incidents de crimes de guerre,
00:05:13des disparitions forcées,
00:05:16de corruption, d'abductions
00:05:19et des chiffres de violations de droits humains.
00:05:22Julian Assange a fait ce que les journalistes
00:05:25investigatifs font régulièrement.
00:05:28Il a éliminé l'information confidentielle
00:05:31d'une source et l'a publiée.
00:05:34Malheureusement, au lieu de procurer les perpétrateurs
00:05:37de ces crimes si disclosés,
00:05:40les Etats-Unis ont décidé de procurer
00:05:43les journalistes.
00:05:46Nous devons résoudre cette injustice
00:05:49et l'apprendre pour que ça ne se reproduise plus jamais.
00:05:52Je n'ai pas beaucoup de temps pour moi aujourd'hui.
00:05:55Ce jour viendra demain quand je présenterai
00:05:58mon rapport à l'Assemblée.
00:06:01Pour le moment, j'ai hâte d'entendre vos opinions,
00:06:04cher Julian, sur le sujet.
00:06:07Merci.
00:06:10Merci, Suna.
00:06:13Monsieur Assange, je voudrais vous inviter à
00:06:16parler à l'Assemblée et prendre,
00:06:19disons, 12 à 15 minutes.
00:06:22Si vous souhaitez plus de temps,
00:06:25vous pouvez le faire.
00:06:40There we are.
00:06:51Mr Chairman,
00:06:54esteemed members of the Parliamentary Assembly
00:06:57of the Council of Europe, ladies and gentlemen.
00:07:00The transition from years of confinement
00:07:03in a maximum security prison
00:07:06to being here before the representatives
00:07:09and 700 million people is a profound
00:07:12and a surreal shift.
00:07:15The experience of isolation for years
00:07:18in a small cell is difficult to convey.
00:07:21It strips away one's sense of self,
00:07:24leaving only the raw essence of existence.
00:07:27I am yet not fully equipped
00:07:30to speak about what I have endured,
00:07:33the relentless struggle
00:07:36to stay alive,
00:07:39both physically and mentally,
00:07:42nor can I speak yet about the deaths
00:07:45by hanging, murder and medical neglect
00:07:48of my fellow prisoners.
00:07:51I apologize in advance
00:07:54if my words falter or if my presentation
00:07:57lacks the polish you might expect
00:08:00from such a distinguished forum.
00:08:03The situation has taken its toll,
00:08:06which I am trying to unwind,
00:08:09and expressing myself in this setting
00:08:12is a challenge.
00:08:15However, the gravity of this occasion
00:08:18and the weight of the issues at hand
00:08:21compel me to set aside my reservations
00:08:24and speak to you directly.
00:08:27I have traveled a long way,
00:08:30and I have a lot to say.
00:08:33Before our discussion or answering any questions
00:08:36you might have, I wish to thank PACE
00:08:39for its 2020 resolution,
00:08:42which stated that my imprisonment
00:08:45set a dangerous precedent for journalists
00:08:48and noted that the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture
00:08:51called for my release.
00:08:54I am also grateful for PACE's 2021 statement
00:08:57that US officials discussed my assassination,
00:09:00again calling for my prompt release.
00:09:03And I commend the Legal Affairs
00:09:06and Human Rights Committee
00:09:09for commissioning a renowned rapporteur,
00:09:12Suna Avisdottir,
00:09:15to investigate the circumstances
00:09:18surrounding my detention and conviction
00:09:21and the consequent implications for human rights.
00:09:24Like so many of the efforts made in my case,
00:09:27whether they were from parliamentarians,
00:09:30presidents, prime ministers, the Pope,
00:09:33UN officials and diplomats, unions,
00:09:36legal and medical professionals, academics,
00:09:39activists or citizens, none of them
00:09:42should have been necessary.
00:09:45None of the statements, resolutions, reports,
00:09:48films, articles, events, fundraisers,
00:09:51protests and letters over the last 14 years
00:09:54should have been necessary.
00:09:57But all of them were necessary
00:10:00because without them I never would have seen
00:10:03the light of day.
00:10:06This unprecedented global effort
00:10:09was needed because of the legal protections
00:10:12that did exist.
00:10:15Many existed only on paper,
00:10:18and they were not effective
00:10:21in any remotely reasonable time.
00:10:24I eventually chose freedom
00:10:27over unrealizable justice
00:10:30after being detained for years
00:10:33and facing a 175-year sentence
00:10:36with no effective remedy.
00:10:39Justice, for me, is now precluded
00:10:42as the US government insisted
00:10:45that I cannot file a case
00:10:48at the European Court of Human Rights
00:10:51or even a Freedom of Information Act request
00:10:54over what it did to me as a result
00:10:57of its expedition request.
00:11:00I want to be totally clear.
00:11:03I am not free today because the system worked.
00:11:06I am free today after years of incarceration
00:11:09because I pled guilty to journalism.
00:11:12I pled guilty to seeking information
00:11:15from a source.
00:11:18I pled guilty to obtaining information
00:11:21from a source.
00:11:24And I pled guilty to informing the public
00:11:27what that information was.
00:11:30I did not plead guilty to anything else.
00:11:33I hope my testimony today can serve
00:11:36to highlight the weaknesses
00:11:40and to help those whose cases are less visible
00:11:43but who are equally vulnerable.
00:11:46As I emerge from the dungeon of Belmarsh,
00:11:49the truth now seems less discernible
00:11:52and I regret how much ground
00:11:55has been lost during that time period,
00:11:58how expressing the truth has been
00:12:01undermined, attacked, weakened
00:12:04and diminished.
00:12:07I see more impunity,
00:12:10more secrecy, more retaliation
00:12:13for telling the truth and more self-censorship.
00:12:16It is hard not to draw a line
00:12:19from the U.S. government's
00:12:22prosecution of me,
00:12:25its crossing the Rubicon
00:12:28by internationally criminalizing journalism
00:12:31to the chilled climate for freedom of expression
00:12:34that exists now.
00:12:40When I founded Wikileaks,
00:12:43it was driven by a simple dream
00:12:46to educate people about how the world works
00:12:49so that, through understanding,
00:12:52we might bring about something better.
00:12:55Having a map of where we are
00:12:58lets us understand where we might go.
00:13:01It allows us to hold power to account
00:13:04and to demand justice where there is none.
00:13:07We obtained and published truths
00:13:10about tens of thousands of hidden casualties of war
00:13:13and other unseen horrors,
00:13:16about programs of assassination, rendition,
00:13:19torture and mass surveillance.
00:13:22We revealed not just when and where these things happened
00:13:25but frequently the policies, the agreements
00:13:28and the structures behind them.
00:13:31When we published Collateral Murder,
00:13:34the infamous gun camera footage
00:13:37of a U.S. Apache helicopter crew
00:13:40eagerly blowing to pieces Iraqi journalists
00:13:43and their rescuers,
00:13:46the visual reality of modern warfare shocked the world.
00:13:49But we also used interest in this video
00:13:52to direct people to the classified policies
00:13:55about the lethal force in Iraq
00:13:58and how many civilians could be killed
00:14:01before gaining higher approval.
00:14:04In fact, 40 years of my potential 175-year sentence
00:14:07was for obtaining and releasing those policies.
00:14:19The practical political vision I was left with
00:14:22after being immersed in the world's dirty wars
00:14:25and secret operations is simple.
00:14:28Let us stop gagging, torturing and killing each other
00:14:31for a change.
00:14:34Get these fundamentals right
00:14:37and other political, economic and scientific processes
00:14:40will have space to take care of the rest.
00:14:52WikiLeaks' work was deeply rooted
00:14:55in the principles that this assembly stands for.
00:15:00Our journalism elevated freedom of information
00:15:03and the public's right to know.
00:15:06It found its natural operational home in Europe.
00:15:09I lived in Paris
00:15:12and we had formal corporate registrations in France and in Iceland.
00:15:15Our journalistic and technical staff
00:15:18was spread throughout Europe.
00:15:21We were privileged to the world from servers
00:15:24based in France, in Germany and in Norway.
00:15:33But 14 years ago, the United States military
00:15:36arrested one of our alleged whistleblowers,
00:15:39Private First Class Manning,
00:15:42a US intelligence analyst based in Iraq.
00:15:45The US government concurrently launched
00:15:48an investigation against me and my colleagues.
00:15:51The US government illicitly sent planes
00:15:54of agents to Iceland,
00:15:57paid bribes to an informer to steal
00:16:00our legal and journalistic work product
00:16:03and without formal process pressured banks and financial services
00:16:06to block our subscriptions and to freeze our accounts.
00:16:12The UK government took part in some of this retribution.
00:16:16It admitted at the European Court of Human Rights
00:16:19that it had unlawfully spied on my UK lawyers
00:16:22during this time.
00:16:30Ultimately, this harassment was legally groundless.
00:16:33President Obama's Justice Department
00:16:36chose not to indict me,
00:16:39recognizing that no crime had been committed.
00:16:42The United States had never before prosecuted a publisher
00:16:45for publishing or obtaining
00:16:48government information.
00:16:51To do so would require a radical
00:16:54and ominous reinterpretation of the US Constitution.
00:16:58In January 2017,
00:17:01Obama also commuted the sentence of Manning
00:17:04who had been convicted of being one of my sources.
00:17:08However, in February 2017,
00:17:11the landscape changed dramatically.
00:17:15President Trump had been elected.
00:17:19He appointed two wolves in MAGA hats,
00:17:23Mike Pompeo,
00:17:26a Kansas congressman and former arms industry executive
00:17:29as CIA director,
00:17:32and William Barr, a former CIA officer
00:17:35as US Attorney General.
00:17:41By March 2017,
00:17:44WikiLeaks had exposed the CIA's infiltration
00:17:47of French political parties,
00:17:50its spying on French and German leaders,
00:17:53its spying on the European Central Bank,
00:17:56European Economics Ministries,
00:17:59and its standing orders to spy on French industry as a whole.
00:18:03We revealed the CIA's vast production
00:18:06of malware and viruses,
00:18:09of supply chains,
00:18:12its subversion of antivirus software,
00:18:15cars, smart TVs, and iPhones.
00:18:20CIA director Pompeo
00:18:23launched a campaign of retribution.
00:18:26It is now a matter of public record that under Pompeo's
00:18:29explicit direction, the CIA
00:18:32drew up plans to kidnap
00:18:35and to assassinate me within the Ecuadorian embassy
00:18:38in London, and authorize
00:18:41going after my European colleagues, subjecting us
00:18:44to theft, hacking attacks, and the planting
00:18:47of false information.
00:18:50My wife and my infant son were also targeted.
00:18:53A CIA asset
00:18:56was permanently assigned to track my wife,
00:18:59and instructions were given to obtain DNA from my
00:19:02six-month-old son's nappy.
00:19:05This is the testimony
00:19:08of more than 30 current
00:19:11and former U.S. intelligence officials speaking
00:19:14to the U.S. press, which has been additionally
00:19:17corroborated by records seized in a prosecution
00:19:20brought against some of the CIA agents involved.
00:19:24The CIA's targeting of myself, my family,
00:19:27and my associates through aggressive extrajudicial
00:19:30and extraterritorial means
00:19:34provides a rare insight into how powerful
00:19:37intelligence organizations engage in
00:19:40transnational repression.
00:19:43Such repressions are not unique.
00:19:46What is unique is that we know so much
00:19:49about this one due to numerous whistleblowers
00:19:52and to judicial investigations in Spain.
00:19:55This assembly is no stranger
00:19:58to extraterritorial abuses by the CIA.
00:20:01PACE's groundbreaking report
00:20:04on CIA renditions in Europe
00:20:07exposed how the CIA operated secret
00:20:10detention centers and conducted unlawful renditions
00:20:13on European soil,
00:20:16violating human rights and international law.
00:20:19The CIA's
00:20:22In February this year,
00:20:25the alleged source of some of our CIA revelations,
00:20:28former CIA officer Joshua Schulte,
00:20:31was sentenced to 40 years in prison
00:20:34under conditions of extreme isolation.
00:20:37His windows are blacked out
00:20:40and a white noise machine plays 24 hours a day
00:20:43over his door so that he cannot even
00:20:46shout through it.
00:20:50These conditions are more severe
00:20:53than those found in Guantanamo Bay.
00:20:59The transnational repression is also conducted
00:21:02by abusing legal processes.
00:21:05The lack of effective safeguards against this
00:21:08means that Europe is vulnerable to having its
00:21:11mutual legal assistance and exhibition treaties
00:21:14hijacked by foreign powers to go after
00:21:17dissenting voices in Europe.
00:21:20In Michael Pompeo's memoirs,
00:21:23which I read in my prison cell,
00:21:26the former CIA director bragged about how he
00:21:29pressured the US Attorney General to bring an
00:21:32exhibition case against me in response to our publications
00:21:35about the CIA.
00:21:41Indeed, exceeding to Pompeo's
00:21:44requests, the US Attorney General
00:21:47reopened the investigation against me
00:21:50that Obama had closed and re-arrested
00:21:53Manning, this time as a witness.
00:21:56Manning was held
00:21:59in a prison for over a year,
00:22:02fined $1000 a day
00:22:05in a formal attempt to coerce her
00:22:08into providing secret testimony against me.
00:22:12She ended up attempting to take her own life.
00:22:22We usually think of attempts
00:22:25to force journalists to testify
00:22:28against their sources,
00:22:31but Manning was now a source being forced
00:22:34to testify against their journalist.
00:22:38By December 2017,
00:22:41CIA director Pompeo
00:22:44had got his way and the US government
00:22:47issued a warrant to the UK for my
00:22:50exhibition. The UK government kept
00:22:53the warrant secret from the public for two more
00:22:56years, while it, the US government
00:22:59and the new president of Ecuador
00:23:02moved to shape the political,
00:23:05the legal and the diplomatic grounds
00:23:08for my arrest.
00:23:14When powerful nations feel entitled
00:23:17to target individuals beyond their borders,
00:23:20those individuals do not stand a chance
00:23:23unless there are strong safeguards
00:23:26in place and a state willing to enforce them.
00:23:29Without this,
00:23:32no individual has a hope of defending themselves
00:23:35against the vast resources that a state
00:23:38aggressor can deploy.
00:23:54If the situation were not already bad enough
00:23:57in my case, the US government asserted
00:24:00a dangerous new global
00:24:03legal position.
00:24:06Only US citizens have free speech rights.
00:24:09Europeans and other nationalities
00:24:12do not have free speech rights.
00:24:15But the US claims its
00:24:18espionage act still applies to them
00:24:21regardless of where they are.
00:24:24So Europeans in Europe
00:24:27must obey US secrecy law
00:24:30with no defenses at all as far as the US
00:24:33government is concerned. An American
00:24:36in Paris can talk about what the US government
00:24:39is up to, perhaps.
00:24:42But for a Frenchman in Paris
00:24:45to do so is a crime with no
00:24:48defense, and he may be extradited just like me.
00:24:57Now that one foreign government has formally asserted
00:25:00that Europeans have no free speech rights,
00:25:03a dangerous precedent has been set.
00:25:06Other powerful states will inevitably follow suit.
00:25:11The war in Ukraine has already seen the criminalization
00:25:14of journalists in Russia.
00:25:17But based on the precedent set in my exhibition,
00:25:20there is nothing to stop Russia
00:25:23or indeed any other state from targeting
00:25:26European journalists, publishers
00:25:29or even social media users by claiming that
00:25:32their domestic secrecy laws have been violated.
00:25:41The rights of journalists and publishers within the European
00:25:44space are seriously threatened.
00:25:47Transnational repression
00:25:50cannot become the norm here
00:25:53as one of the world's two great norm-setting institutions,
00:25:56PACE must act.
00:26:02The criminalization of news-gathering activities
00:26:05is a threat to investigative journalism everywhere.
00:26:08I was formally convicted by a foreign power
00:26:11for asking for,
00:26:14receiving and publishing truthful
00:26:17information about that power
00:26:20while I was in Europe.
00:26:26The fundamental issue is simple.
00:26:29Journalists should not be prosecuted for doing their jobs.
00:26:32Journalism is not a crime.
00:26:35It is a pillar of a free and informed society.
00:26:50Mr. Chairman, distinguished delegates,
00:26:53if Europe is to have a future where the freedom
00:26:56to speak and the freedom to publish the truth
00:26:59are not privileges enjoyed by a few
00:27:02but rights guaranteed to all, then it must act
00:27:05so that what has happened in my case never happens
00:27:08to anyone else.
00:27:12I wish to express my deepest gratitude
00:27:15to this Assembly,
00:27:18to the conservatives,
00:27:21social democrats, liberals,
00:27:24leftists, greens and independents
00:27:27who have supported me throughout this ordeal
00:27:30and to the countless individuals who have advocated
00:27:33tirelessly for my release.
00:27:38It is heartening to know that in a world
00:27:41often divided by ideology and interests,
00:27:44there remains a shared commitment
00:27:47to freedom and liberty.
00:27:52Freedom of expression and all that flows from it
00:27:55is at a dark crossroad.
00:27:58I fear that unless institutions like PACE
00:28:01wake up to the gravity of the situation,
00:28:04it will be too late.
00:28:07Let us all commit to doing our part
00:28:10to ensure that the light of freedom never dims,
00:28:13that the pursuit of truth will live on
00:28:16and that the voices of the many are not silenced
00:28:19by the interests of the few.
00:28:46Thank you Mr. Assange
00:28:49for that contribution to our proceedings.
00:28:52I will now open the floor to members of the committee.
00:28:55I would remind everyone that questions can only be raised
00:28:58by members of the Committee of Legal Affairs and Human Rights.
00:29:02As I indicated before we began,
00:29:05I will allow one question from each member
00:29:08and give the floor back to Mr. Assange
00:29:11to reply to each of the questions.
00:29:14Mr. Assange,
00:29:17we are not entirely familiar with the plea
00:29:20that you were made to enter into.
00:29:23If there are questions asked
00:29:26which you feel it would not be appropriate to answer,
00:29:29please do not hesitate to indicate
00:29:32and that will be understood.
00:29:35Could I call upon Ms. Baer to ask a question?
00:29:38Thank you.
00:29:41Thank you very much for being with us
00:29:44and for sharing your testimony.
00:29:47As far as I understood,
00:29:50neither the UK courts
00:29:53nor the European Court of Human Rights
00:29:56got any final decision in your case.
00:29:59On the one hand I would like very personally
00:30:02to know how this feels for you
00:30:05and on the other case I would like to know
00:30:08legally how cases like yours
00:30:11could really be settled
00:30:14in a legal system that works correctly and properly.
00:30:25After 14 years detained in the UK
00:30:28including over 5 years in a maximum security prison
00:30:31and facing a 175 year sentence
00:30:34with the prospect of
00:30:37years more in prison
00:30:40before being able to have a shot
00:30:43at the European Court of Human Rights,
00:30:46I accepted
00:30:49a plea offer from the United States
00:30:52that would release me from prison immediately.
00:30:55The United States
00:30:58insisted
00:31:01that I not be
00:31:05allowed to take a case
00:31:08in relation to what had happened to me
00:31:11in relation to its extradition proceedings
00:31:14nor that I
00:31:17could even file a Freedom of Information Act request
00:31:20on the US government
00:31:23to see what was done.
00:31:26There will never be
00:31:29a hearing into
00:31:33what has happened
00:31:37and that's why
00:31:40it's so important that
00:31:43PACE acts.
00:31:46The uncertainty within Europe
00:31:49as to the defences that can be used by journalists here
00:31:52to protect themselves from transnational repression
00:31:55and extradition
00:31:58if left in its current state
00:32:01will inevitably be abused by other states.
00:32:04So norm-setting institutions
00:32:07like PACE
00:32:10must move to
00:32:13make the situation clear
00:32:16that what happened to me cannot happen again.
00:32:22Thank you.
00:32:25Miss Nowicka.
00:32:55Do you believe that
00:32:58our proceedings here in the Council of Europe
00:33:01in case and hopefully
00:33:04the report prepared by Suna
00:33:07is going to be accepted at the plenary session
00:33:10that will reverse the negative
00:33:13impact that your case had
00:33:16on the position of whistleblowers
00:33:19and their right to expression
00:33:22globally.
00:33:25Do you hope that
00:33:28in case the report
00:33:31is going to be accepted
00:33:34and your visit
00:33:37here to Parliament
00:33:40will in a way
00:33:43have this positive aspect
00:33:46and will improve the situation
00:33:49with regard to the rights of journalists and so on.
00:33:52But also I would like to add
00:33:55how you visualize your life
00:33:58now after your case.
00:34:01I'm not asking very much about your private plans
00:34:04but in general
00:34:07what do you think
00:34:10what you are planning to do basically. Thank you.
00:34:13Well I think that
00:34:16I am here because
00:34:19I believe it is an essential first step
00:34:22for PACE to act to get the ball rolling
00:34:25to address
00:34:28the problems of transnational repression
00:34:31and also
00:34:34to make it clear
00:34:37that national security journalism is possible
00:34:40within European borders.
00:34:44As for my re-adaptation
00:34:47to the big wide world
00:34:50outside of house arrest
00:34:53and embassy siege
00:34:56and maximum security prison
00:34:59it sure takes some adjustment.
00:35:02It's not simply the spooky sound
00:35:05of electric cars, they are very spooky
00:35:09but it is also the
00:35:12change in
00:35:15the society
00:35:18where we once
00:35:21produced
00:35:24important
00:35:27where we once released important
00:35:30war crimes videos
00:35:33that stirred public debate
00:35:36Now, every day
00:35:39there are live stream horrors
00:35:42from the wars in Ukraine
00:35:45and the war in Gaza.
00:35:48Hundreds of journalists have been killed
00:35:51in Gaza and Ukraine
00:35:54combined.
00:36:00The impunity
00:36:03seems to mount
00:36:06and it is still uncertain
00:36:09what we can do about it.
00:36:12My re-adaptation to
00:36:15the world of course
00:36:18includes some positive
00:36:21but still tricky things
00:36:24becoming a father again
00:36:27to children
00:36:30who have grown up without me
00:36:33becoming a husband again
00:36:36even dealing with a mother-in-law
00:36:42These are
00:36:45trying family issues
00:36:48No, she's a very lovely woman
00:36:51I like her very much.
00:37:00Thank you Mrs. Assange
00:37:03Could I call upon Mr. Kleinwacher please
00:37:06Yes, thank you Mr. President
00:37:09Back to a sadder issue
00:37:12How well, in your experience
00:37:15does political asylum really work
00:37:18in today's world?
00:37:24Political asylum
00:37:28Political asylum is an
00:37:31absolutely essential
00:37:34relief valve for human rights abuses
00:37:37within states
00:37:40that people can leave a state
00:37:43that is persecuting them
00:37:46not only saves individual lives
00:37:49it provides a mechanism
00:37:52where journalists can continue to report
00:37:55on their societies after they have been hounded out
00:38:00Ultimately, the threat of people
00:38:03leaving a state
00:38:06is what
00:38:09in the final analysis
00:38:12controls its behavior
00:38:15We have seen examples in history
00:38:18of states that made it difficult
00:38:21or impossible for people to leave
00:38:24and we can see how the
00:38:27situation for people living there collapsed
00:38:30There must be competition
00:38:33between states
00:38:36to be good places for people to live and to work
00:38:44The assault on asylum
00:38:47through means of transnational repression
00:38:50is another matter
00:38:53It was difficult
00:38:56to find a state that would give asylum
00:38:59that I was able to get to
00:39:02There is a big gap
00:39:05in the asylum system
00:39:08for people
00:39:11who are not fleeing their own state
00:39:14but fleeing an ally of that state
00:39:17or any third state
00:39:21That was my case
00:39:24Asylum law does not easily cover the case
00:39:27where
00:39:30say, an Australian
00:39:33is fleeing persecution by the United States
00:39:38Or we could imagine
00:39:41a Kazakhstani fleeing persecution by Russia or China
00:39:45I was not able to apply
00:39:48for asylum within the UK
00:39:51Of course the UK has its own particular political angle
00:39:54It might have been difficult
00:39:57to convince the courts to give
00:40:00me or in fact anyone
00:40:03asylum in relation to the United States and the UK
00:40:06But there wasn't even a chance
00:40:09because citizens from third states
00:40:13under the 1951 Convention
00:40:16as it's implemented in most European states
00:40:19cannot apply for asylum
00:40:25Thank you Mr. Assange
00:40:28Mr. Honko, would you like to ask a question please?
00:40:31Thank you very much Mr. Assange
00:40:34I'm so happy to see you here
00:40:37to see Stella as well
00:40:40Thank you for reminding
00:40:43what PACE did in the last
00:40:46four years
00:40:49starting with the hearing we had in January 2020
00:40:52with your father, John Shipton
00:40:55with Niels Melzer
00:40:58the UN General Rapporteur on Torture
00:41:01and very important other persons
00:41:04and three times I think this Assembly
00:41:07took a position calling for the prompt release
00:41:10and I think
00:41:13this Assembly can a bit be proud
00:41:16of it because it failed in other international
00:41:19state organizations. There were attempts as well
00:41:22in the European Union
00:41:25Parliament, in the OSCD
00:41:28but none of those
00:41:31had enough courage to
00:41:34make a clear statement
00:41:37Not enough geopolitical diversity
00:41:40Sorry?
00:41:43Perhaps not enough geopolitical diversity
00:41:46Maybe
00:41:49So I'm very happy
00:41:52Maybe a question
00:41:55on the extra
00:41:58juridical
00:42:01repression you talked about
00:42:04in the end because this is one of the most shocking
00:42:07for me that there is a law in the US
00:42:10on freedom of speech
00:42:13which is not for other citizens
00:42:16but there are laws
00:42:19that can be applied to other citizens
00:42:22What could we do as Parliamentary Assembly
00:42:25or as Council of Europe
00:42:29to counter this?
00:42:42In the final UK High Court case
00:42:45which I won
00:42:48and the US
00:42:51appealed against
00:42:58I won under the basis
00:43:01of nationality discrimination
00:43:04That is, in the UK Expedition Act
00:43:07you're not meant to discriminate
00:43:10at trial or
00:43:13during a penalty phase
00:43:16against someone on the basis of their nationality
00:43:19The US tried
00:43:22different tricks to get around that
00:43:25in the UK system
00:43:28and it was uncertain
00:43:31whether I or the United States
00:43:34would ultimately prevail
00:43:37However, there is nothing
00:43:40in the European Charter
00:43:43that says that
00:43:46There is nothing in the European Charter
00:43:49that prevents nationality discrimination
00:43:52in relation to expedition
00:43:55So, this is a small protection
00:43:58that was hard to use within the UK Expedition Act
00:44:04But it's not clear
00:44:07that it exists in most European states
00:44:11Thank you
00:44:14Ms. Mikkonen
00:44:17Thank you Mr. Chair
00:44:20and thank you Mr. Assange
00:44:23that you are here
00:44:26BASE has done work on transnational repression
00:44:29where states go after someone
00:44:32in another state
00:44:35In this case, in your case
00:44:38there are several allegations
00:44:41about the CIA monitoring
00:44:44and even considering assassination
00:44:47Can you comment more on those?
00:44:50And how do you yourself see
00:44:53your status?
00:44:56Were you a political prisoner?
00:45:09The first part of your question was about the CIA
00:45:12The second part was about
00:45:15Do I see myself as a political prisoner?
00:45:18Answering the first one
00:45:21Yes, I was a political prisoner
00:45:24The political basis
00:45:27for the US government's
00:45:30retributive acts against me
00:45:33was in relation to
00:45:36publishing the truth about what the US government had done
00:45:39Then in a formal legal sense
00:45:42once the US
00:45:45proceeded with its
00:45:48legal retribution
00:45:51it used the Espionage Act
00:45:54a classic political offence
00:46:01In relation to the CIA's
00:46:05campaign
00:46:08of transnational repression
00:46:11against Wikileaks
00:46:14we felt that something
00:46:17was going on at the time
00:46:20There were many small signs
00:46:23that came together
00:46:26but
00:46:30having an ominous feeling
00:46:33and some
00:46:36subtly put tips from
00:46:39a whistleblower in one of the
00:46:42security contractors
00:46:45that the CIA had contracted
00:46:51didn't give me the
00:46:54full
00:46:57and disturbing picture
00:47:00which later emerged
00:47:03It is an interesting example
00:47:06where an intelligence organisation
00:47:09has targeted
00:47:12an investigative organisation
00:47:15Wikileaks
00:47:18As a result of
00:47:21our investigations
00:47:24of a criminal case in Spain
00:47:27and in particular
00:47:30work done by US journalists
00:47:33which under the precedent
00:47:36that has been established in my case
00:47:39might well now be themselves criminal
00:47:42detailed information
00:47:45about the actions of the CIA took
00:47:48came out
00:47:51The details involved
00:47:54the testimony of more than 30
00:47:57current or former US intelligence officials
00:48:00There are two
00:48:03resulting processes
00:48:06a criminal case in Spain
00:48:09with a number of victims
00:48:12including my wife
00:48:15my son
00:48:18people who came to visit me
00:48:21at the embassy, lawyers, journalists
00:48:24and a civil suit in the United States
00:48:27against the CIA
00:48:30In the United States
00:48:33the CIA has in response
00:48:36to that civil suit
00:48:39declared formally
00:48:42by the CIA director
00:48:45The claim is that the CIA
00:48:48may have a defence
00:48:51but that defence is classified
00:48:57so that the civil case
00:49:00cannot go forward
00:49:03So it is complete impunity
00:49:06within the US system
00:49:09Thank you
00:49:12Mr Assange
00:49:15if you could go back in time
00:49:18would you do everything the same
00:49:21and if not
00:49:24what would you do differently
00:49:27I'm not asking just in terms of
00:49:30personal costs that you suffered
00:49:33but also in terms of effectiveness
00:49:36or impact of what you tried to do
00:49:39Thank you
00:49:44This is a very deep question
00:49:47about free will
00:49:53Why do people do things when they do them
00:49:58Looking back
00:50:01we were often constrained by
00:50:04our resources
00:50:07by our number of staff
00:50:10by secrecy
00:50:13that was necessary to protect our sources
00:50:20If I could go back
00:50:23and have a lot of extra resources
00:50:26of course
00:50:29political approaches
00:50:32media approaches
00:50:36could have maximized even further
00:50:39the impact of the revelations that we made
00:50:44But I suppose your question is trying to say
00:50:47were there any knobs
00:50:50that could be turned in hindsight
00:50:53Of course thousands of small things
00:50:58I was not from the United Kingdom
00:51:01I had a good friend in the United Kingdom
00:51:04Gavin McFadden
00:51:07who was an American journalist
00:51:10a very good man
00:51:13But it took me time
00:51:16once I was trapped in the United Kingdom
00:51:19it took me time to understand
00:51:22what UK society was about
00:51:25who you could trust
00:51:28who you couldn't trust
00:51:31There are different
00:51:34maneuvers that are made
00:51:37in that society
00:51:40and
00:51:43there are different
00:51:46media partners
00:51:49that perhaps we
00:51:52could have chosen differently
00:51:55You were the subject
00:51:58of a European arrest warrant
00:52:01issued by Sweden
00:52:04To what extent do you think
00:52:07that European arrest warrants
00:52:10are being used as tools
00:52:13of international cooperation
00:52:16between the European Union
00:52:19and the United Kingdom
00:52:22and to what extent
00:52:25do you think
00:52:28the rules could be changed
00:52:31so that they can no longer be used
00:52:34for that purpose
00:52:37The European arrest warrant system
00:52:40was introduced post-September 11
00:52:43with the political rationale
00:52:46that it would be used
00:52:49by Muslim terrorists
00:52:52between European states
00:52:55The first European arrest warrant
00:52:58that was issued
00:53:01was issued by Sweden for a drunk driver
00:53:04You must understand that
00:53:07when we pick a disfavored group
00:53:10Muslims at that time
00:53:13and say
00:53:16this repressive legislation
00:53:19it's only going to be for them
00:53:22inevitably bureaucrats
00:53:25elements of the security state
00:53:28will seize upon those measures
00:53:31and apply them more broadly
00:53:34Injustice to one person
00:53:37spreads soon enough to most people
00:53:40I don't know
00:53:44the statistics on how often
00:53:47arrest warrants are abused
00:53:50There was an attempt to extradite me
00:53:53without any charge from the United Kingdom
00:53:56by Sweden
00:53:59The UK government
00:54:02subsequently changed the law
00:54:05to prevent extradition without charge
00:54:08but in its amendment
00:54:11to the extradition legislation
00:54:14it included a rider
00:54:17to make sure that it didn't apply to me
00:54:24Thank you
00:54:27Mr Crookton, could I invite you
00:54:30to address a question to Mr Assange
00:54:33Thank you very much Mr Assange
00:54:36for all the answers to many of our questions
00:54:39I'm very happy to see you here
00:54:42and knowing you're out of prison
00:54:45You were imprisoned for doing your job
00:54:48a job that we all here expect you to do
00:54:51namely being a journalist
00:54:54you investigated and published your findings
00:54:57but it is shocking to me and to many of us
00:55:00to see how long the arm of US justice
00:55:03is that can get a grip on you
00:55:06Can I ask you a personal question
00:55:09Were you aware
00:55:12of how little
00:55:15your basic rights as a citizen
00:55:18but also as a journalist
00:55:21were protected in Europe
00:55:24and what do you think
00:55:27will be the effect on journalism
00:55:30as a whole from your case
00:55:36We performed a legal analysis
00:55:39to understand
00:55:42what the abilities and limitations
00:55:45were within Europe
00:55:48for publishing documents
00:55:51from a number of different countries
00:55:54including the United States
00:55:57We understood that
00:56:00in theory article 10
00:56:03should protect
00:56:06journalists in Europe
00:56:09Similarly looking at the US First Amendment
00:56:12to its constitution
00:56:15that no publisher had ever been prosecuted
00:56:18for publishing classified
00:56:21information from the United States
00:56:24either domestically or internationally
00:56:27I expected some kind of
00:56:30harassment legal process
00:56:33I was prepared to fight for that
00:56:36I believe the value of these publications
00:56:39was such that it is ok
00:56:42to have that fight
00:56:45and that we would prevail
00:56:48because we had understood
00:56:51what was legally possible
00:56:54My naivety
00:56:57was believing in the law
00:57:00When push comes to shove
00:57:03laws are just pieces of paper
00:57:06and they can be reinterpreted
00:57:09for political expediency
00:57:15They are the rules
00:57:18made by the ruling class
00:57:21and if those rules don't suit
00:57:24what it wants to do
00:57:27it reinterprets them
00:57:30or hopefully changes them
00:57:33which is clearer
00:57:36In the case of the United States
00:57:39we angered one of the
00:57:42constituent powers of the United States
00:57:45the intelligence community
00:57:48the intelligence sector
00:57:51the security state
00:57:54the secrecy state
00:58:01It was powerful enough
00:58:04to push for a reinterpretation
00:58:07of the US Constitution
00:58:10The US First Amendment
00:58:13seems pretty black and white to me
00:58:16It's very short
00:58:19It says that Congress shall make no law
00:58:22restricting speech
00:58:25or the press
00:58:36However
00:58:39the US Constitution
00:58:42those precedents relating to it
00:58:46were just
00:58:49reinterpreted away
00:58:52and yes, perhaps
00:58:55ultimately if I
00:58:58had gotten to the Supreme Court of the United States
00:59:01and I was still alive in that system
00:59:04I might have won
00:59:07depending on what the makeup was
00:59:10of the US Supreme Court
00:59:13But in the meantime
00:59:16I had lost
00:59:1914 years
00:59:22under house arrest, embassy
00:59:25siege and maximum security prison
00:59:28So I think
00:59:31this is an important lesson
00:59:34that when a major power faction
00:59:37wants to reinterpret the law
00:59:41it can push to have the element of the state
00:59:44in this case the US Department of Justice
00:59:47do that
00:59:50and it doesn't care too much about what is legal
00:59:53that's something
00:59:56for a much later day
00:59:59In the meantime
01:00:02the deterrent effect that it seeks
01:00:05the retributive actions that it seeks
01:00:08have had their effect
01:00:11Thank you
01:00:14Mr. Lee, could I invite you to put a question
01:00:17to Mr. Assange
01:00:20Obviously there's very considerable sympathy
01:00:23for your plight in this room
01:00:26I'd like to ask you about the position of the UK government
01:00:29about the allegation that you were effectively
01:00:32a political prisoner
01:00:35Obviously your first difficulty
01:00:38with the European arrest warrant
01:00:41was not on political grounds with Sweden
01:00:44I'd like to ask you with your comment
01:00:47on the quality of treatment of the extradition treaties
01:00:50between the UK and the US
01:00:53and whether the UK is in fact bound by them
01:00:56and whether we have very little freedom of maneuver
01:00:59I'd like to ask you about your treatment
01:01:02Nobody denies that Belmarsh is an extremely unpleasant place
01:01:05but I'd like to know a bit more about the evidence for that
01:01:19The US-UK extradition treaty is one-sided
01:01:22Nine times more people
01:01:25are extradited to the United States
01:01:28from the UK than the other way around
01:01:32The protections
01:01:35for US citizens
01:01:38being extradited to the UK are stronger
01:01:45There is no need to show
01:01:48a prima facie case
01:01:51or reasonable suspicion even
01:01:54when the United States seeks to extradite from the UK
01:01:57It's an allegation extradition system
01:02:00The allegation is alleged
01:02:03You do not even have a chance to argue
01:02:06that it is not true
01:02:09All the arguments are based simply upon
01:02:12is it the right person, does it breach human rights
01:02:15That's it
01:02:18That said
01:02:21I do not think in any way
01:02:24that UK judges are compelled to extradite most people
01:02:27from the US to the United States
01:02:33Some judges in the UK found in my favour
01:02:36at different stages in that process
01:02:39Other judges did not
01:02:45But all judges
01:02:48whether they were finding in my favour
01:02:51or not in the United Kingdom
01:02:54they found extraordinary deference
01:02:57to the United States
01:03:00engaged in astonishing
01:03:03intellectual backflips
01:03:09to allow the United States
01:03:12to have its way
01:03:15on my extradition
01:03:18and in relation to setting precedence
01:03:21That's to my mind
01:03:24a function of
01:03:27the selection of UK judges
01:03:30the narrow section
01:03:33of British society from which they come
01:03:36their
01:03:39deep engagement with the UK establishment
01:03:42and the UK establishment's
01:03:45deep engagement with the United States
01:03:48whether that's in the intelligence sector
01:03:51BAE, which is now the largest
01:03:54manufacturer in the United Kingdom
01:03:57a weapons company
01:04:00BP, Shell
01:04:03and some of the major banks
01:04:06The United Kingdom's
01:04:09establishment
01:04:12is made up out of people
01:04:16who have benefited from that system
01:04:19for a long period of time
01:04:22and almost all judges are from it
01:04:25They don't need to be told explicitly what to do
01:04:28They understand
01:04:31what is good for that cohort
01:04:34and what is good for that cohort
01:04:37is keeping a good relationship
01:04:40with the United States government
01:04:43Thank you
01:04:46Mr. Lee, as I indicated earlier
01:04:49one question from each member of the committee
01:04:52Thank you
01:05:03I'm very glad
01:05:06I'm very happy seeing you free man
01:05:09I think that's one of the major lessons
01:05:12learned from your experience
01:05:15and the treatment you had
01:05:18is that the misuse of
01:05:21a legal process
01:05:24the arbitrary application of a legislation
01:05:27may render it a mean
01:05:30or a tool of repression
01:05:33or an incitation
01:05:36to silence
01:05:39Can I have your comments on that please?
01:05:48I didn't quite hear you
01:05:51Can you please repeat the question
01:05:54and raise your hand
01:05:57I can't see you
01:06:00What comes out from your experience
01:06:03and the treatment you received
01:06:06is that the misuse
01:06:09or manipulation of a legal process
01:06:12can or may render
01:06:15the application of a legislation
01:06:18or the legal process
01:06:21a tool, a mean of repression
01:06:24and incitation to silence
01:06:27instead of a uniform application of law
01:06:30in a rule of law society
01:06:33Lawfare
01:06:36is the use of the law
01:06:39to achieve ends
01:06:42that would normally be achieved
01:06:45in some other form of conflict
01:06:48We're not talking about simply litigating
01:06:51to protect your rights
01:06:54but rather
01:06:57picking laws
01:07:00to get your man
01:07:03or to get the organization you want to get
01:07:06not just as
01:07:09seeking its resolution in law
01:07:12We've seen a lot of cases like that
01:07:15and obviously experienced ourselves
01:07:18in many different domains
01:07:21I'm not sure precisely
01:07:24what can be done about it
01:07:28There is an anti-SLAP movement
01:07:31in Europe
01:07:34which I commend
01:07:37SLAP is Strategic Lawsuits
01:07:40Against Public Participation
01:07:43There is good legislation in California
01:07:46to deal with SLAP suits
01:07:49and to reverse liabilities
01:07:52at an early stage
01:07:56and to make
01:07:59abusive lawsuits more expensive to conduct
01:08:02But I think
01:08:05we should understand
01:08:08a bigger picture
01:08:11which is that whenever we make a law
01:08:14we create a tool
01:08:17that self-interested bureaucrats
01:08:20companies
01:08:24and the worst elements of the security state
01:08:27will use
01:08:30and will expand the interpretation
01:08:33in order to achieve control over others
01:08:38And that's why
01:08:41law reforms are constantly needed
01:08:44because laws are abused
01:08:47and expanded
01:08:50We need constant vigilance
01:08:53but also great care
01:08:56in making laws in the first place
01:08:59because they will be seized upon and abused
01:09:02Thank you
01:09:05Mr. Bosic, could I invite you
01:09:08to address a question to Mr. Assange
01:09:11Thank you, Chair
01:09:14Mr. Assange, your appearance here
01:09:17is very important for the case you are symbolizing
01:09:20but it is also very important
01:09:23for the Council of Europe
01:09:26to show itself as an independent institution
01:09:29and an institution that promotes
01:09:32human rights and the cause you represent
01:09:35I wonder
01:09:38how do you assess the support
01:09:41you got from newspapers
01:09:44journalists
01:09:47associations
01:09:50and how does that
01:09:53what's the message about the freedom of press
01:09:56in your case
01:09:59The support from
01:10:05other publications
01:10:08journalists unions
01:10:11organizations
01:10:14was different at different stages
01:10:17Those who saw the threat to everyone else
01:10:20and understood the case first
01:10:23were the lawyers involved in major publications
01:10:26like lawyers for the New York Times
01:10:31Freedom of expression NGOs
01:10:34were the next to see the threat
01:10:37Of the larger media organizations
01:10:41Unfortunately, many of them
01:10:44went with their
01:10:47political or geopolitical alignment
01:10:55So it was easy to gain support
01:11:01from media organizations
01:11:04in neutral states
01:11:08and obviously states hostile to the US
01:11:11Allies of the US took longer
01:11:14Media organizations within the US
01:11:17the journalists there
01:11:20not the lawyers
01:11:23took longer still
01:11:31It is a concern
01:11:34and I can see
01:11:37a similar phenomenon happening
01:11:40with the journalists being killed in Gaza
01:11:43and Ukraine
01:11:46that the political and geopolitical
01:11:49alignment of media organizations
01:11:52causes them to not cover
01:11:55those victims
01:11:58or cover only certain victims
01:12:04This is a breach of journalistic solidarity
01:12:07We all need to stick together
01:12:10to hold the line
01:12:13A journalist censored anywhere
01:12:16spreads censorship
01:12:19which can then affect us all
01:12:22Similarly, journalists being killed
01:12:25or targeted by intelligence agencies
01:12:28need our firm commitment
01:12:31This is not a joke
01:12:34This is not a joke
01:12:37It is a serious problem
01:12:40It is a serious problem
01:12:43It is a serious problem
01:12:46It is a serious problem
01:12:49I think it's a serious problem
01:12:52to have journalists
01:12:55to be able to
01:12:58Mais il y a un point où je suis un activiste, et tous les journalistes doivent être des activistes.
01:13:06Les journalistes doivent être des activistes pour la vérité.
01:13:10Applaudissements
01:13:19Les journalistes doivent être des activistes pour l'abilité de confier la vérité.
01:13:24Cela signifie qu'ils doivent se battre pour l'autre et qu'ils ne doivent pas s'excuser.
01:13:30Merci.
01:13:32Est-ce que je peux inviter un autre membre de l'Assemblée parlementaire,
01:13:38qui n'est pas un membre de l'Assemblée,
01:13:41pour indiquer s'ils souhaitent poser une question ?
01:13:45Je vois deux mains dans l'air.
01:13:48Je vous invite d'abord à donner votre nom,
01:13:51et ensuite à poser votre question à monsieur Assange.
01:13:55Merci.
01:13:57Merci monsieur le président.
01:13:58Je m'appelle Andi Cristea, je suis un membre de l'Assemblée,
01:14:01et je suis aussi le rapporteur général pour la science et la technologie de l'Assemblée.
01:14:07Je suis aussi le rapporteur sur la métaverse.
01:14:10Monsieur Assange, j'aimerais vous demander
01:14:14comment vous voyez ces nouvelles technologies
01:14:17connectées à ce que vous avez présenté jusqu'à présent.
01:14:21Merci.
01:14:26J'ai beaucoup d'intérêt pour la technologie.
01:14:29J'étais un scientifique de computer à l'âge jeune,
01:14:34et j'ai étudié la mathématiques, la physique et la cryptographie.
01:14:40C'est avec cette cryptographie que nous avons créé notre système
01:14:44pour protéger les ressources et notre propre organisation.
01:14:52Je suis enthousiaste par certains des développements
01:14:57qui se produisent grâce à la cryptographie.
01:15:01Certains de ces développements offrent des alternatives
01:15:04à ce que nous voyons comme un énorme pouvoir médiatique
01:15:07et une concentration dans les mains d'un peu de milliardaires.
01:15:12Ils sont toujours embryonnaux.
01:15:15D'autres technologies ont émergé
01:15:19à cause de la campagne contre la surveillance de masse.
01:15:24Et le gros bruit était la révélation de Snowden,
01:15:28qui a radicalisé les ingénieurs et les programmeurs
01:15:35dans de nombreux endroits,
01:15:37qui se considéraient comme des agents de l'Histoire,
01:15:42en incluant des algorithmes pour protéger la privacité des gens,
01:15:48en incluant les communications entre les journalistes et leurs sources.
01:15:55D'autre part,
01:15:57en m'émergeant de la prison,
01:16:00je vois l'utilisation de l'intelligence artificielle
01:16:06pour créer des assassinats de masse.
01:16:12Avant, il y avait une différence entre l'assassinat et la guerre.
01:16:21Maintenant, les deux sont conjoints.
01:16:25Beaucoup, peut-être la majorité des objectifs à Gaza
01:16:32sont bombardés à cause de l'objectif d'intelligence artificielle.
01:16:39La connexion entre l'intelligence artificielle et la surveillance
01:16:44est importante.
01:16:48L'intelligence artificielle a besoin d'informations
01:16:53pour déterminer les objectifs, les idées ou la propagande.
01:17:05Quand on parle de l'utilisation de l'intelligence artificielle
01:17:14pour créer des assassinats de masse,
01:17:17les données de surveillance, les téléphones, l'Internet,
01:17:22sont essentiels pour entraîner ces algorithmes.
01:17:32Beaucoup a changé. Certaines choses restent les mêmes.
01:17:37Il y a beaucoup d'opportunités
01:17:41et beaucoup de risques.
01:17:44J'essaie toujours de comprendre où nous sommes.
01:17:48J'espère avoir quelque chose de plus utile à dire.
01:17:55Un autre membre de l'Assemblée voulait vous présenter son nom.
01:18:05Je m'appelle Sevim Dadelen, je viens de l'Allemagne.
01:18:08Je suis membre de l'Assemblée étrangère.
01:18:11Quelqu'un qui connaît Julien depuis 2012,
01:18:15de l'Ambassade écuadorienne,
01:18:17comme le premier membre du Parlement qui l'a visité.
01:18:20Julien, je suis très heureuse de vous voir comme un homme libre en Europe.
01:18:25Bienvenue.
01:18:28Je voulais vous demander des crimes de guerre aux Etats-Unis
01:18:33que vous avez publiés et qui ne sont toujours pas punis.
01:18:40Les journalistes sont morts.
01:18:42Et maintenant, il y a présumablement de nouveaux crimes de guerre,
01:18:45comme dans la guerre de la proxie à Gaza,
01:18:48et actuellement au Liban.
01:18:50Donc, mes questions sont
01:18:53comment vous conseilleriez à un journaliste
01:18:56de gérer cette situation ?
01:18:59Deuxièmement,
01:19:01que pensez-vous du rôle des parlementaires dans ce domaine ?
01:19:09Merci.
01:19:10Monsieur Assange.
01:19:18Je suis désolé, je suis un peu fatigué.
01:19:23Christian, est-ce que vous voulez prendre la parole ?
01:19:26Qu'est-ce que les journalistes font ?
01:19:32Qu'est-ce qui peut être fait quand on a des histoires horribles
01:19:35sur les tuements targés,
01:19:38et qu'on a maintenant des preuves de cela dans les guerres ?
01:19:44C'est la réalité.
01:19:48Les rapports sur les guerres sont plus sévères que jamais.
01:19:51Et c'était mauvais.
01:19:52C'était mauvais en Irak.
01:19:54Maintenant, c'est encore pire.
01:19:56C'est une histoire de horreur.
01:19:58Il est difficile de donner de l'advice
01:20:00à ces journalistes,
01:20:02sur comment ils peuvent gérer cette situation.
01:20:06La seule chose que nous pouvons proposer,
01:20:08au moins,
01:20:09c'est un appel et une condamnation
01:20:12pour ce qui doit se passer,
01:20:14parce que nous avons besoin d'informations.
01:20:16Nous avons besoin de cette information.
01:20:19Il n'y a pas d'outils pour protéger les individus
01:20:25à Gaza qui sont suivis par des drones
01:20:28et qui sont targés d'une bombe en masse.
01:20:33Il y a une valide défense de cela.
01:20:36Mais l'appel et la condamnation devraient être là.
01:20:40Nous ne devrions pas être silencieux quand cela se passe.
01:20:43Merci.
01:20:46Formellement,
01:20:47je ne veux pas être difficile et interrompre,
01:20:50mais formellement,
01:20:52le sol est avec vous, M. Assange,
01:20:55mais si vous êtes fatigué,
01:20:57indiquez-le,
01:20:58parce que je pense que vous avez répondu
01:21:00à tellement de questions,
01:21:01tellement pleinement et tellement bien,
01:21:04et nous sommes à un point
01:21:06où si vous souhaitez que cette affaire
01:21:08soit attirée au plus près,
01:21:10nous n'avons qu'un peu de temps à perdre,
01:21:12alors je suis sûr que tout le monde
01:21:14dans cette salle respectera cela.
01:21:37M. Assange voudrait dire quelques mots finaux
01:21:40et j'espère que vous le garderez.
01:21:42Merci.
01:21:44Juste quelques mots finaux.
01:21:52En 2010,
01:21:54je vivais à Paris.
01:22:00Je suis allé au Royaume-Uni
01:22:03et je ne suis jamais revenu,
01:22:06jusqu'à présent.
01:22:09C'est bien d'être de retour.
01:22:19C'est bien d'être
01:22:21avec des gens qui,
01:22:23comme nous le disons en Australie,
01:22:25qui donnent un don.
01:22:29C'est bien d'être avec des amis.
01:22:32J'aimerais juste remercier
01:22:35toutes les personnes
01:22:37qui ont lutté pour ma libération
01:22:42et qui ont compris,
01:22:44et c'est important,
01:22:48que ma libération
01:22:50était liée
01:22:52à leur propre libération.
01:22:54Que les libertés fondamentales
01:22:58qui nous soutiennent tous
01:23:03doivent être luttées pour.
01:23:08Et que,
01:23:10quand l'un d'entre nous
01:23:12tombe dans la colère,
01:23:14qu'il s'en rende compte
01:23:16qu'il n'y a pas de liberté,
01:23:18qu'il n'y a pas de liberté,
01:23:20qu'il n'y a pas de liberté,
01:23:22quand l'un d'entre nous
01:23:24tombe dans la colère,
01:23:26bientôt,
01:23:28ces colères s'élargiront
01:23:30et prennent le reste de nous.
01:23:34Donc, merci pour votre
01:23:37pensée,
01:23:39votre courage
01:23:41dans cette et l'autre situation,
01:23:43et gardez la lutte.
01:23:52Merci.
01:24:22Merci.