'We are engaged in a brutal war that has to be ended as soon as possible'
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00:00Well, certainly, when you read about the peace plan, and, you know, naturally you may think,
00:11I mean, what does it have to do with reality?
00:14These are entirely two different things.
00:16There is a peace plan, which may be some lunatics, but this is the reality of fighting, and Mr.
00:28Kidbar, there is no better time to raise these ideas than now, because of the fact that we
00:36are engaged in a brutal war, which has to be ended as soon as possible, and there is
00:43no way to end this and to move forward from it, but to discuss in a serious way what can
00:51be the only possible solution for the historical conflict between us and the Palestinians.
00:56And this is, number one, we have to end the war in Gaza and in Lebanon.
01:02Doesn't depend on us, obviously, because our adversaries are waging this, and you mentioned
01:08the Iranian attack on Israel a few days ago, with 200 ballistic missiles, unbelievable.
01:15Never heard of, never happened in modern history that one country was attacked by 200 ballistic
01:22missiles, which have warheads of approximately 1,000 kilos each.
01:28So this has to end, but part of the effort to end it is to propose an alternative, to
01:36propose something for the day after.
01:40How can we move forward?
01:41How can we prevent it from happening again?
01:44How can we create an entirely different relations between Israel and the Palestinians?
01:51We thought the only way, what we proposed, is based on the peace plan that I presented
01:58the president of the Palestinian Authority in 2008 when I was minister, and Mr. Al-Kidwa
02:04shares with me the basic principles, and that's what we are trying now to raise, and we try
02:09and we'll make it go everywhere in the world, in Europe, in America, in South America, to
02:17try and force this to the agenda of the international community.
02:22Look, given your position, Ehud, you clearly have an audience both internationally and
02:26within Israel, the respect that you command, but I'm just aware, and just to clarify, because
02:33the idea involves a two-state solution.
02:35It's coming four months now after the Knesset, Israel's parliament, overwhelmingly voted
02:40on a resolution against a two-state solution.
02:42I just wonder how much traction you think you can get, and it's something that perhaps
02:47you pointed to then, with time that you want this returned to, if not now, and also why
02:52you think this plan might work when the U.S. and French ceasefire plan fell on deaf ears
02:57only last week.
02:58I'll tell you what I'm trying to share with the Israelis, and I know that there are quite
03:05a few more that are joining in with the same perspective.
03:10Let's assume, just for the sake of our discussion, that in the end, in another month, two months,
03:17three months, we will have destroyed every single Hamas operation.
03:24We will wipe out all Hamas.
03:27There will not be Hamas anymore.
03:29Hezbollah is a different story.
03:31We will not have Hamas.
03:33We'll be left with six million people, Palestinians.
03:38What are we going to do with them?
03:40The question I ask everyone, okay, we have destroyed Hamas.
03:43We killed everyone.
03:44We have reached out for Ihe Sinua.
03:47We killed him.
03:48No Hamas anymore.
03:49Okay.
03:50Then what?
03:52We're left with six million Palestinians.
03:54What do we want to do?
03:55Do we want to continue to occupy the territories forever and engage in terrorist confrontations
04:02on a daily basis and be condemned by the international community and lose the status, the prestige
04:10the respect that we have entertained in the international community for so many years?
04:15We have to make, and the Palestinians, there are enough Palestinians that understand that
04:21there is no alternative but a two-state solution with a Palestinian state alongside the state
04:28of Israel, non-militarized Palestinian state, which is what we, Mr. El-Kidbo and myself,
04:35agreed and published.
04:37But it kind of feels like shouting at the moon that it must right now to the Israeli
04:41government, which on the far right of the governments talk about, and you'll hear this
04:44phrase a lot, escalate to de-escalate.
04:47Tell me what you think about what you would like to see the Netanyahu government specifically
04:52regarding Iran next.
04:53You talked about this barrage.
04:55It has been unseen before, the fortuitous nature that only one person appears to have
05:00been killed.
05:02As one of your successors, Naftali Bennett, said this week, the focus should be on an
05:07attack on Iran's nuclear facilities.
05:09He talks about, which we can see from his tweet on X, this being the moment to reshape
05:15the Middle East.
05:16You know, it's escalation to de-escalate.
05:18What do you think?
05:19Tell me something, had France been attacked by, not in every country, from a distance
05:26with 200 ballistic missiles, what do you expect France to do, not to respond, not to
05:33relate to it, just to let it go and say, OK, there were no people killed, so we can absorb
05:38it somehow?
05:39Of course, Israel has to react, and Israel will react, and this is something which is
05:43universally accepted in Israel.
05:47Question is, what kind of, are we going to go after people and kill innocent people in
05:54the center of Tehran or any other city?
05:58Absolutely not.
05:59I'm totally against it, and I think the overwhelming majority of Israelis are against it.
06:05We have to act in a manner which will not trigger an expansion of this confrontation,
06:13but rather perhaps signal to Iran that it's not worthwhile to attack Israel with ballistic
06:20missiles so that we can move forward away from it.
06:23But if that, there will not be any response, I'm afraid, that the Iranians will think that
06:30we were devastated and that they carry on.
06:34By the way, in any event, I don't think that we have to attack their nuclear facilities.
06:39I don't know that we can do that, and in any event, I think that this is something that
06:44has to be determined by the United States.
06:47If the United States will decide that it needs to be done, they will know how to do it, and
06:52they have the capabilities.
06:54For those listening, and your words matter here as a former Israeli prime minister, and
07:00are thinking about the state of play when it comes to Israel's allies, first of all,
07:05the U.S.
07:06Let me ask you the question that back in 2006, during the 34-day war, when you were in command,
07:11the kind of conversations you were having with the Americans, the information, the words
07:19of wisdom, perhaps, or the encouragement, given that we're not seeing, or it appears
07:24to be turning a blind eye and falling on deaf ears, any comments from Joe Biden, is that
07:28something that would be alien to you back in 2006, that level of dialogue being perhaps
07:33ignored?
07:34First of all, I must say I have wonderful relations, good trust relations, with President
07:39Bush, George W. Bush, who was an excellent, absolutely trustworthy, and with Condoleezza
07:48Rice, who was the Secretary of State.
07:51Now, throughout the 34 days, I didn't meet even one time with President Bush.
07:55He didn't need to send me any message, and he didn't want to talk to me, and we used
08:00to talk frequently.
08:01The Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, came a couple of times to visit.
08:07She never demanded anything.
08:09She never thought that what we were doing was absolutely out of place.
08:16I decided from the beginning, from day one, from the first minute, that the Hezbollah
08:23started this.
08:25By the way, at the end of the war, a couple of weeks later, Nasrallah, who was targeted
08:33a couple of weeks ago by Israel, at that time, two weeks after the war, had he known
08:381% of Israeli action, he wouldn't have started the whole thing, and he regretted it.
08:46But when I was in charge, I tried to focus fighting against Hezbollah as a terrorist
08:53organization.
08:54We destroyed the section of Beirut which was gated, and was the headquarters of Hezbollah
09:02with all the command positions, with all the launchers and whatever.
09:08But we refrained from shooting at civilians, and we made sure before we started to attack
09:17the Dakhia section of Beirut that all of the residents of this section were outside of
09:23it, so that we had a greater degree of stability.
09:27That's what I believe we are trying to do now.
09:30Israel is not after civilians.
09:32Israel is after the killers and the murderers.
09:35Don't forget, you know, you mentioned, and I heard your correspondent talking about the
09:39people in Beirut, 80,000 Israelis in the north are away from their homes for one year already
09:46because of the attacks on a daily basis by Hezbollah coming from Beirut, coming from
09:51Lebanon against Israel.
09:54Hundreds of rockets every day on civilian centers in Israel, including today and yesterday.
10:01So, somehow...
10:03Which is why I guess, you know, you would advocate more clearly, more loudly, your peace
10:07plan, why it needs to come back to Gaza.
10:10I would also like to know what you make of the war of words between the French president
10:15here, Emmanuel Macron, and Benjamin Netanyahu in the last few minutes, as we're talking
10:18on air, in fact, the Elysee Palace saying that there is an unwavering support for Israel.
10:23So words of diplomacy trying to ameliorate and smooth over what's been happening.
10:27Let's remind those who've just been watching of the events of the past 24 hours.
10:32Emmanuel Macron called for Western allies to halt arms supplies to Israel if weapons
10:37shipments are being sent for use in Gaza.
10:39The Israeli prime minister responded directly with what he called a message to Macron.
10:44This is part of the exchange.
10:48If we are calling for a ceasefire, consistency means not supplying arms for war.
10:53Those who provide arms cannot simultaneously call for a ceasefire and continue to supply
10:58As Israel fights the forces of barbarism led by Iran, all civilized countries should be
11:03standing firmly by Israel's side.
11:06Yet President Macron and some other Western leaders are now calling for an arms embargo
11:11against Israel.
11:14Shame on them.
11:16Shame on them.
11:17Ehud, what do you make of this geopolitical fallout?
11:20First of all, I know it will not make me very popular in some circles in Israel, but I have
11:25to say I like President Macron, and I think he is, and I don't think that he's the enemy
11:31of the state of Israel.
11:33And he has manifested it throughout this last year in many occasions.
11:38So I think that it was a mistake to suggest an embargo of weapons to the state of Israel
11:48at a time that 200 ballistic missiles are shot at us, that hundreds of rockets are shot
11:54at us from Lebanon by the Hezbollah, and Hamas continues its war, and we need to somehow
12:05fight it through.
12:07What I think, and I have suggested, and by the way, and I have to say, I don't like the
12:14rhetoric of Benjamin Netanyahu.
12:17It is well known.
12:18I'm not his supporter, to put it mildly.
12:21I think that he's arrogant, he's outrageous, and nothing to do with France or with the
12:27President of France.
12:28We want Netanyahu to go home as soon as possible, and the sooner the better for Israel.
12:34Well, let me quote you, Ehud, on a recent interview you gave a month ago.
12:37You said this, you said, what makes a great leader is the ability when the time comes
12:41to do the opposite of what you've ever promised to do.
12:45This needs to be done now, you say.
12:47You went on to say Netanyahu is not Churchill, he's not Roosevelt, he's not even Neville
12:51Chamberlain.
12:52Tell me what you mean by that, and what do you think Churchill would do now, faced with
12:56this situation?
12:57Well, he would have done long ago.
13:01Churchill would have done, would have prevented the 7th of October.
13:06This is the greatest failure of Netanyahu, the greatest failure, greatest failure in
13:12the history of the state of Israel.
13:14And as some people say, you know, your colleague Tom Friedman at the New York Times called
13:18him the worst leader in the history of Jewish people.
13:22He was the prime minister.
13:24He flirted with Hamas.
13:25He believed that if he can buy Hamas with money and physical assistance, and they will
13:32somehow acquiesce and they will not attack the state of Israel.
13:36This was a major monumental mistake of judgment by the prime minister of Israel, and he can't
13:43forgive himself for doing it, so he's blaming the whole world.
13:47This is Netanyahu.
13:48He pretends to be Churchill.
13:51He's not Churchill.
13:52Churchill would have prevented the October, long before it would actually take place.
13:58And the same is Roosevelt.
14:00But Bibi Netanyahu, unfortunately, thinks that he is not just Churchill, that he is
14:04Churchill and Roosevelt.
14:06And I say that he's not even Chamberlain.
14:10But what I think is very important, by the way, in this context that we talk, I think
14:15that the war in the north can be concluded, can be, there can be a compromise.
14:23And I presented it to the French government, as well as to the American government, a plan
14:30that I have drafted with experts of intelligence and knowledgeable about the history of the
14:37region there that can bring an end to this and an agreement of some sort between us and
14:44the Lebanese government.
14:45And the French government will be very active in dealing with it.