Variety's Business of Broadway Breakfast, presented by City National Bank, celebrates the upcoming season of Broadway with conversations from cast members and directors of “Sunset Boulevard,” “Yellow Face,” and “Our Town.”
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00:00the first of our conversations and panel discussions,
00:03talking to some of the talent behind
00:04some of the biggest shows on Broadway this fall.
00:09I'm gonna be talking to two of the headline talents
00:12behind a Broadway play that is both a farce
00:16on mistaken racial identity,
00:18and it's also a theater industry comedy.
00:21That play is Yellow Face,
00:23and I'm gonna be talking to the playwright,
00:25David Henry Wong, and the actor who plays him on stage,
00:29Daniel Dae Kim, if you could both join me.
00:32Hi, David.
00:33Hi, Daniel.
00:34Thanks.
00:35Hi, gentlemen.
00:36This is a busy time for you, your show's about to open.
00:55Yeah.
00:56It's like, wow, it's this morning.
00:59It's this morning, okay.
01:03This is such an interesting time to revisit Yellow Face.
01:07We in New York first saw it off-Broadway
01:09at The Public in 2007,
01:11and David, when you look at the title page of the script,
01:15there are these draft dates on it,
01:16and the first one is 2005,
01:18so this play's been around for almost 20 years.
01:20Of course, a lot of things have changed since then,
01:22and a lot of things have not.
01:24What have you found to be fruitful
01:26about returning to this play
01:28and thinking about it now?
01:32So we've been fortunate that Yellow Face
01:36is a play that's kind of grown in stature over the years,
01:42and during the pandemic, at the beginning of the pandemic,
01:45our director, Lee Silverman,
01:48Lee thought, are we ever gonna do theater again?
01:51Let's do Yellow Face in an audio play version,
01:55and Kate Navin really got behind us.
01:58Daniel's company, 3AD, also jumped in,
02:03and Daniel agreed to play the lead,
02:05and when we did a table,
02:07okay, then it took like three years
02:09for us to actually make the deals,
02:10so that by the time we actually sat around a table
02:14to read it, we felt like it was funnier
02:18and more timely even than it was in 07
02:22because the issues that are at the heart of the comedy
02:25are much more at the center of American popular discourse,
02:29so then Daniel and us jumped in again,
02:35and Scott Ellis said yes very quickly,
02:38and now here we are.
02:40Right, yeah, and Daniel, what for you
02:42has been exciting about visiting the show right now
02:46and working on it right now?
02:48Excuse me while I wake up.
02:50Yeah.
02:53It's been really great.
02:54I saw this play in Los Angeles when it was at the Amundsen,
02:59and I remember at the time thinking
03:01the issues that David was addressing
03:03were things that were really relevant
03:06and meaningful to a lot of the marginalized communities,
03:10but they weren't resonating in the culture at large so much,
03:15and so revisiting it made me realize
03:19how much more relevant the show actually is today
03:22because we've now, as a culture,
03:24gone through so many different things
03:26like Black Lives Matter, George Floyd,
03:29the anti-Asian hate incidents during the pandemic,
03:32and also the issue of ethnic authentic casting
03:37when David wrote this play was not as accepted as it is now,
03:44and so revisiting that time period,
03:48for those of you who don't know,
03:49it starts in the 90s with the casting of Jonathan Price
03:54as an Asian character in Miss Saigon.
03:57David was at the vanguard of protesting a white actor
04:02playing an Asian character complete with taped eyelids,
04:06and as we all know, Miss Saigon actually came to America
04:10with a white actor playing an Asian role,
04:14and so it starts there,
04:15but it shows how ahead of the curve David was at the time
04:20when we were thinking about ethnic authentic casting
04:23because now, I'm sure all of us in this room
04:25would say that's not appropriate.
04:29At that time, that wasn't the sentiment,
04:31and David's play kind of walks us through that time period
04:35in a way that's very, I don't want to say lighthearted,
04:39but in a way that doesn't really indict people
04:43as much as it indicts himself and addresses this idea
04:48that we can all evolve, we can all change,
04:51and we're all looking to understand
04:52one another and ourselves.
04:54Yeah, yeah, as you mentioned, Daniel,
04:56the origin of the play stretches back
04:59to the real-life protests, David,
05:01that you were involved in leading
05:03through the Broadway production of Miss Saigon,
05:04the casting of the Broadway production of Miss Saigon,
05:07when some real-life people said some oblivious
05:11and hurtful things, as is chronicled in the play.
05:14Was it difficult to go back to for you, David?
05:19No, I thought it was, I mean, what's interesting
05:22is the degree to which a lot of the individuals
05:25who are quoted in the play are either good sports
05:30or just feel differently now,
05:34such that when we did the audible version,
05:37a lot of them played themselves in cameos.
05:41So I think that it's a measure of the degree
05:44to which the culture and the field have shifted,
05:48such that we can come back to this now,
05:51and yeah, it's a little bit painful,
05:54but we can also kind of laugh together
05:57at some of the excesses.
05:58Have you talked, Cameron Macintosh, of course,
06:00appears in the play, have you talked to Cameron Macintosh
06:02since the, or how many times have you spoken to him
06:05since the show came out?
06:06Cameron Macintosh didn't play himself
06:09in the audible version, and we haven't actually
06:12had a conversation about it, so.
06:14But, you know, to his credit, he decided fairly early on
06:19that the role of the engineer after Jonathan Pryce
06:21would always be played by an Asian actor,
06:24and he has stuck true to that.
06:28Daniel, you were in New York around the time of,
06:31you know, as a working actor in the 90s, right?
06:34What are your memories of that time
06:36and your life as a working actor then?
06:38I was just, whoa, sorry.
06:41I was just starting as an actor during that time,
06:43and I was trying, I was just looking for anyone
06:46who would pay me a dollar to act, you know?
06:49If that, I would have acted for a meal.
06:52And so I remember what it was like hearing about
06:56a Caucasian actor coming in to play an Asian role.
06:59And to be honest, because it had been done
07:02so much historically, it wasn't that egregious to me.
07:06But I was thinking, I don't know how we're ever
07:10gonna get to play ourselves if other people are playing us.
07:14You know, because we, as David so often points out,
07:18Asian actors and actors of color only recently started
07:20to be able to play people beyond our own ethnicities.
07:25But for Asians, for a long time,
07:27we weren't even allowed to play our own ethnicity.
07:30So I remember thinking, how am I ever gonna make a living
07:34in this career if I can't play these kinds of roles
07:37or aspire to play them?
07:39And at the same time, I was grateful to the show
07:42because, excuse me, every young Asian actor I knew
07:47who could sing and dance wanted to be in that show
07:49because it was a job.
07:51They got to ply their craft.
07:53They got to get better at what they do.
07:55And as any actor will tell you, you can't get better
07:58unless you get the opportunity to get better.
08:02And so I had a lot of mixed feelings about it.
08:05You know, and to be honest, I've never seen the show
08:08because of the controversy around it.
08:10I'm a big fan of musicals, I just haven't seen that one.
08:14But I understand that it also made Asian stars
08:17like Lea Salonga and John John Briones.
08:20So it has gone on to provide a platform
08:23for very talented Asian people.
08:25So it's a very nuanced conversation, I think.
08:29The character you play, DHH,
08:31is a sort of lightly fictionalized or highly fictionalized,
08:35depending on the moment, version of David himself.
08:39First of all, how much of your performance
08:42is influenced by David sitting next to you?
08:44Do you have a really good David Henry Wong impression
08:46at this point?
08:48Thankfully, David relieved me of the responsibility
08:51of doing an impression.
08:53He said he didn't want an impression.
08:55And I'll let him speak to this as well.
08:57But what I think he was driving at
09:00was a couple of things about what it takes
09:04to be an advocate, what it takes to be a leader
09:07in the community.
09:08And those are things that I could tap into very easily
09:11because I've been outspoken about certain issues,
09:14and I know David has.
09:15And I've always admired and respected that in him.
09:18So in trying to portray him,
09:21I tried to tap into those qualities first.
09:24But what I really love about,
09:26one of the things I really love about this play
09:28is that he presents himself foibles and all.
09:32He is not the hero of this play
09:35so much as he is a human being
09:37who's trying to wrestle and answer these questions
09:40that he's asking of other people as well.
09:43And I found that really compelling.
09:46I mean, I certainly didn't want Daniel
09:48to try to look like me
09:50because why wouldn't I want Daniel Dae Kim
09:53looking like Daniel Dae Kim to be me?
09:58But yes, I mean, David is sort of the dumbest character
10:03in the play in a lot of ways.
10:05And I think what's important, and particularly now,
10:10is to say, hey, it's okay to make a mistake.
10:14The David character makes mistake after mistake
10:17after mistake in the play
10:18and keeps trying to cover it up.
10:20And in the end, has to be accountable for that,
10:24but achieves some sort of redemption.
10:29And I think that's a good thing to put out there in 2024.
10:37Is there an easy way to characterize the difference
10:40in audience response in 2024
10:43versus earlier productions of the play
10:45in terms of what we respond to now?
10:47I mean, we're getting big laughs in the theater, yes.
10:54I don't know if it's with us or at us,
10:56but we're getting laughs.
10:57And in 2007, I think maybe the audiences
11:02were a little uncomfortable.
11:04Like they weren't sure if they were supposed to laugh.
11:08Whereas now, everything is maybe,
11:10we've polished it more, it's more carved out.
11:12But again, I think it's a reflection
11:14of the change in the culture.
11:17Daniel, the last time we spoke,
11:18I think it was right before your first preview
11:20and you were thinking about landing those laughs
11:23and comedy is not something
11:24you were maybe traditionally known for.
11:26How's it going?
11:27Are you enjoying it?
11:28I'm having a great time.
11:29I really am.
11:30I think there's not that much difference.
11:34We've all heard these differences
11:35between tragedy and comedy.
11:37But if the writing is good,
11:39then all you have to do is play your intention strongly
11:42as an actor and people will choose to laugh or not.
11:46But that's where the comedy in this play comes from.
11:50It's all character-based.
11:51So as David mentioned, you have DHH,
11:55a man who's trying to cover up his mistakes
11:58and he knows he's making them.
12:00So as the audience, you're smarter than David.
12:03You know that he's making these mistakes
12:05and you know it's his own ego getting in the way,
12:08but he doubles down on all of them.
12:10And so that's where the comedy comes from.
12:13So the more the character believes in what he needs to do,
12:17the funnier it gets.
12:19And that's a joy for me because I've always loved comedy.
12:24It just so happens that my career has been shaped
12:26in a way that's been very serious and dramatic.
12:30You've also, many people will recognize you,
12:32your most recognizable work is the work you've done on TV,
12:34of course, and in film.
12:36But you started out as a theater person.
12:39This is your return to Broadway.
12:41You were in The King and I back, I don't know,
12:43eight years ago or something.
12:45Are you enjoying being back in a part of the community?
12:47I really am.
12:48Being back on stage?
12:49I really am.
12:50Like, it's been great to see old friends
12:52and meet new ones like Cole.
12:54And, you know, I started my career here.
12:58I got my MFA at NYU downtown
13:00and I was doing a lot of experimental theater
13:03when I started my career.
13:05And so to come back,
13:08I was just, not to get sentimental,
13:11but the first day I was in the Todd Haymes Theater,
13:15I looked out on the stage and I remembered
13:18that 21-year-old young man
13:22who would get TKTS tickets and sit in the balcony.
13:27And just to be able to see these wonderful plays
13:30and these amazing performers.
13:32And it was very moving for me
13:35to be able to count myself among the community
13:39of lucky people who gets to perform in spaces like that.
13:45And this is a question for both of you.
13:47How has your work on Yellow Face now impacted your sense
13:51of kind of where the industry is right now
13:54in terms of a conversation of inclusion
13:57and equity and diversity and all of that?
14:02Yeah, I think a lot of what we've been talking about
14:04this morning has to do with,
14:06oh, feeling that the culture has shifted
14:10and the conversation has moved.
14:13Such, when we did the show in 2007,
14:16we actually used to like joke around,
14:18like, oh yeah, this is gonna get to Broadway someday.
14:21And the fact that it now is on Broadway does suggest
14:26that whatever the circumstances, the political discussion,
14:31the state of the audience, the state of the country
14:34with regard to cultural issues,
14:36whatever those things existed in 2007,
14:40that that has moved such to the point
14:44where it can be a mainstream play
14:48and it can be a mainstream entertainment.
14:51And I'll just add, I think I heard the other day
14:54that David is only one of two Asian-American playwrights
14:57ever to be on Broadway.
14:59Is that true, David?
15:01I would say there's three.
15:04Three.
15:04Well, no, there's four now.
15:06Oh, there's four.
15:07But I was the first, and then.
15:10Forget it.
15:11Yeah.
15:12But since then, there's Aya, there's Rajiv,
15:16and then there were the creators of the musical Allegiance.
15:23What's next for both of you here?
15:26I know you've got a TV show, Daniel, coming out shortly.
15:30Yeah, I was in Korea for the last six months.
15:33It's from January to June, shooting a new TV show
15:36that unites an American cast with a Korean cast.
15:39It's gonna be a bilingual show
15:42about an estranged father and daughter.
15:45It's in the spy action-adventure genre,
15:47and it was a lot of fun making it.
15:50We're cutting it right now.
15:52We're putting in all the VFX,
15:53and that's taking up some of my time,
15:56and hopefully you guys will see it next year.
15:58That's Amazon, yeah?
15:59That's right.
16:00Yeah, yeah, and David, what about for you?
16:02When can we expect your next play?
16:05Well, I do have, I have an opera
16:07that's opening at the Met on October 15th.
16:10Yeah, soon, yeah.
16:11Called Aina de Mar, and it's really fun
16:15to be a seasoned buddy with my friend Janine Tesori,
16:20who just opened Grounded, and on top of that,
16:23we had opened a new version of our musical Soft Power
16:27in the Washington, D.C. area in August.
16:30It's been a busy few months.
16:31Yeah, it sounds like you did a pretty significant
16:33amount of work on that show.
16:34It's pretty different from what we saw here, yeah.
16:35Yeah, and also one act now.
16:37Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:38Well, we can look forward to all of that from both of you,
16:41and to the opening of Yellowface,
16:43which is any minute now.
16:46Thank you so much for joining me.
16:47Thanks, Gordon. Thanks, everybody.