A magnificent yet simple story || Acharya Prashant, on Upanishads (2022)
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00:00So, we have Chandogya Upanishad, we are starting from 5.3.1 and we'll take a few verses thereafter.
00:27So, once Shwetaketu, the grandson of Arun, came to the assembly of the Panchals.
00:42Ravahana, the son of Jaivil, enquired of him, my boy, has your father instructed you?
01:01He said, Shwetaketu that is, Shwetaketu said, he has indeed, sir.
01:12So now, these princes ask him a few questions.
01:18He has come to the royal assembly of the Panchals and now they are testing him with a few questions.
01:29Do you know where the created beings go above from here?
01:34No, revered sir.
01:37Do you know the place of parting of the two paths, the path of the gods and the path of the fathers?
01:44No, revered sir.
01:48Do you know why the other world is not filled up?
01:53No, revered sir.
01:54Do you know how at the fifth oblation, the liquid oblations or the unseen results of action come to be designated as man?
02:05No, indeed, revered sir.
02:09Then why did you say, I have been instructed?
02:12Because how can he who does not know these things say, I have been instructed?
02:18So Shwetaketu was distressed and he came to his father's place and said to him, revered sir, without having instructed me properly, you said, I have instructed you.
02:36That nominal Kshatriya asked me five questions and I was unable to answer even one of them.
02:44The father said, even as you have spoken to me about them, so I do not know even one of them.
02:52Had I known them, why should I have not told you?
02:58So then the father, Gautam, went to the king's place.
03:03When he arrived, the king made reverential offerings to him.
03:08In the morning, he presented himself to the king when he was in the assembly.
03:12The king said to him, poor revered Gautam, please ask for a boon of human wealth.
03:19He replied, O king, let the human wealth remain with you.
03:23Tell me those words which you spoke to my boy.
03:27The king was perturbed.
03:33The king commanded him, stay here for a long time.
03:36At the end of the period, he said to him, even as he told me, O Gautam, prior to you,
03:41this knowledge never went to the Brahmins.
03:45This is why the expounding of this knowledge belonged to the Kshatriyas in earlier times
03:49in all the worlds and then he instructed him.
03:56See what is happening.
03:57Let's try to understand.
04:07In the spiritual domain, in the spiritual literature, you will come across two types.
04:22One is that which contains knowledge of the type that gets old.
04:35Knowledge that gets old and outdated.
04:40So that consists of ideas, principles, concepts, speculations, imaginations.
04:50These are things that are limited by the human condition at a particular place at a particular
04:58time.
04:59You know only so much and what you know is determined by where you are, who you are,
05:05how old you are, who surround you, how you have been educated, what is the level of accumulated
05:11knowledge in your society, those things.
05:15And as time marches on, you find that in general, you are accumulating more knowledge, better
05:21knowledge, more refined knowledge and the stuff that you had in earlier times is no
05:28longer relevant and knowledge of this kind abounds the spiritual books.
05:39That part has to be put in its place.
05:44That part has to be seen as time bound, not timeless, not something that will bring you
05:55to liberation but still of interest because it gives you a peek into the mind of the enquirer
06:12and the conditions of the times when the scripture was composed.
06:23This differentiation is very important.
06:26If this differentiation is not made, if literatures of these two kinds are not seen as fundamentally
06:37different from each other, then there is a lot of problem.
06:43Stuff that is of time bound nature must be of interest to us only to the extent it helps
06:57us know the prevailing conditions of those times.
07:04So there is a historical importance.
07:07You come to know what those people used to believe in, what their concepts were, how
07:14they were limited, how the society was organized and many other interesting things.
07:20Like you study in history or archaeology, museums are important, are they not?
07:31And there is a beauty that you perceive when you visit a museum.
07:37So the time bound parts of scriptures indeed do have beauty but that beauty has only a
07:47historical or you could say archaeological significance.
07:55When I am talking of archaeology, I am talking of it in the subtle sense.
08:00You could say in the psychological sense.
08:04Now there are these questions that Shwetakirtu is asked.
08:10So what are those questions?
08:12Do you know the place of the parting of the two paths, the paths of the gods and the paths
08:16of the fathers?
08:18The fact is that absolutely, truly there are no such two paths.
08:24That these paths exist is the belief of those times.
08:32So importance does not lie at the level of knowledge.
08:40These princes that Shwetakirtu has gone to, they are testing him in knowledge.
08:47Have you been told of the path of gods, of the path of the fathers?
08:52Shwetakirtu says, no, I do not know.
08:55Similarly, they are asking him, do you know why the other world is not filled up?
09:00Now it would be a great mistake if you start thinking that Chandogya Upanishad is about
09:07some other world and it's filling up.
09:12This story is not there to instruct you about the other world or the path of gods or the
09:17path of fathers.
09:18These are mere beliefs of those times.
09:21And these beliefs are not at all central to the Upanishads.
09:25Here it has been mentioned in the passing.
09:30The emphasis of Upanishads is on understanding reality as it is and being liberated from
09:37it.
09:38Upanishads do not stand for cultivating beliefs about this world or the other world.
09:45Similarly, the question, do you know how at the fifth oblation, the liquid oblations come
09:51to be designated as man, fourth oblation, fifth oblation, seventh oblation.
09:58They carry no spiritual significance at all.
10:01Similarly, the liquid oblations do not come to be designated as man.
10:06Even that is either a euphemism, a metaphor of some kind or a mere belief that has been
10:14outdated beyond any kind of acceptability today.
10:27So these questions are asked to him and in some sense, his current knowledge, his general
10:32knowledge is being checked and Shwetaketu honestly says, you know, I do not know any
10:37of these things.
10:39So they say, if you do not know these things, then how come you say that you have been instructed?
10:42So he goes back and he says, father, you have instructed me, I do not know these things.
10:47I went there and I had to face this humiliation.
10:53They asked me these questions.
10:54I had no answers and they said, you claim you are instructed, you do not know anything.
10:58The father says, son, had I known of these things, I would have instructed you and I
11:03do not know of these things.
11:05So then the father goes to the king and says, king, tell me about the stuff that you spoke
11:12to my son.
11:14The king says, well, you can take a lot of wealth.
11:16He says, I do not need your wealth.
11:18You tell me of the stuff that you spoke to my son.
11:23This is what is timeless.
11:26This is what is important.
11:29And you must gather the distinction.
11:31Today, it is of no significance.
11:36All this talk about the path of God's path of father's fifth oblation, liquid oblation,
11:41is that no significance.
11:42All that has gone.
11:44All that has changed.
11:45Nobody has those questions today.
11:48But what is it that has remained unchanged since the Chandogya Upanishad till today?
11:58What is it that has not changed?
12:00Human relationships.
12:05People will have sons and people must know how to raise sons.
12:11And people will have ignorance.
12:13They must know how to deal with their ignorance.
12:16And people will look at the world and the world is full of stuff and people must know
12:20how to deal with that stuff.
12:22So what has not changed is that the human being is always in relationship.
12:28The human being is always related.
12:30The given excerpt here allows us rich insights into at least three kinds of relationships.
12:38The first relationship is between the boy and his father.
12:42The second relationship is between a person and his ignorance.
12:49The third relationship is between a person and worldly wealth.
12:55That's what is to be learned from this.
12:57Those relationships existed then and exist even today.
13:01So that part of the Upanishad is relevant to us.
13:04The other part is outdated and we are not interested.
13:07We do not want to know about the oblations and this and that.
13:11We know where man comes from.
13:13In the material sense, today we know much more about the birth of man, about material
13:20processes, about human anatomy, about the fetus, about the embryo.
13:26We know a lot more than was known in the Vedic times.
13:30So when it comes to worldly knowledge, it's not the Vedas we have to look to.
13:35They will not be able to offer much to us.
13:39However, they offer us tremendously rich stuff when it comes to the internal world.
13:47Are you getting it?
13:49Because the internal world has not changed.
13:50It cannot change.
13:53Every child even today is born at the same place, in the same psychological place.
14:00It was born 3000 years ago.
14:04It is not born in the same worldly place.
14:08When the child is born, it is born in two worlds.
14:10One, the internal world, second, the external world.
14:13The external world has changed beyond recognition.
14:163000 years ago, the child was born and all he sensed around himself was a lot of ignorance,
14:23poverty, this and that.
14:24The economic conditions were different.
14:25The social conditions were different.
14:27Those things were there.
14:28Today, when the child is born, externally he perceives very, very different conditions.
14:34But internally, that child 3000 years back and today are born in the same place, exactly
14:39the same place.
14:40So, it's the internal station that is more important and it is the internal station that
14:46the Upanishads address.
14:48Internal station consists of relationships as well.
14:52That's what is being addressed here.
14:54So, what is it that I find interesting in the excerpt taken today?
14:59First, the fact that the father is also the teacher and the father is made responsible
15:12to educate the kid in stuff that is really important.
15:21So, when he is asked, have you been instructed, he says, yes, by whom, by a father.
15:28It's a father who knows that merely giving physical birth to the child is not enough.
15:34I have to act as someone who educates him well, deeply.
15:43Otherwise, I would have done great injustice.
15:48To give body to the kid and not relieve the kid of bodily identification is kind of cruelty,
16:02is it not?
16:05What have you given the kid?
16:07Bodily identification, a lot of hardships, that's what you have given to the kid by giving
16:13birth to him.
16:15Now, since you have done this, now you are indebted.
16:25You owe to provide liberation to your child.
16:30That's something you owe the child.
16:36Else you have harmed him.
16:43Really to just give birth is to just give harm.
16:48So, if you are giving the body to the child, it is extremely important that you do not
16:55fail in your role to give freedom from bodily identification to the child.
17:04And that's the role Shwetaketu's father has taken upon himself.
17:11Then this passage offers valuable insight into the kind of society that is there.
17:19He goes to some place.
17:22They are not really assessing him on his wealth or pedigree or other things.
17:32And he is going to Kshatriya assembly and Kshatriyas are not really supposed to be very
17:37serious about knowledge.
17:38They are supposed to be serious about worldly acquisitions, victories, wealth, power, these
17:43things.
17:46But such was the society that even the royals were more interested in knowledge.
17:56So much so that at one point, the king says there was special knowledge.
18:01It was the privilege of Kshatriyas and never known to Brahmins.
18:04But now that you have come to request, I'll share it with you.
18:08So even the kings were very interested in knowledge.
18:17And that's the lesson that you learn from this passage.
18:20Irrespective of what you do in life, your primary interest, your central love has to
18:26be knowledge.
18:30So he goes there and the sons of the king, they are asking him about what do you know
18:39where do you come from?
18:40They are not inviting him for some fun, frolic, entertainment, come let's go hunt something
18:48or let's talk about riches, you know, now that you have come to us, we'll show you our
18:53beautiful gardens, our magnificent palaces, none of that.
19:02And these are mere boys.
19:05And the boys are discussing top kind of scriptural stuff.
19:18And then they ask him, do you know this, do you know that?
19:21And what do we see Shwet Ketu responding as?
19:27He does not know, he candidly admits, no, I do not know.
19:31No beating about the bush, direct answers, no, I do not know.
19:37And when he does not know, they say, if you have not known, then you must not call yourself
19:42instructed, you need to do better, you need to know more.
19:47The fellow comes back and asks the father, he said, well, you said that you have taught
19:52me, but if you have taught me, why have you not taught me these things?
19:55Father does not say, well, these things still remain.
19:58And when you will be eligible, I'll teach them to you.
20:03Look at the commitment to truth in this relationship.
20:06The father says, I have not taught these things to you because I do not know these things.
20:10Had I known, I would have taught them.
20:14The father is so honest in admitting and then what does the father do?
20:18Now that the son has raised this question, the father cannot let it go lightly.
20:27The father takes it upon himself to learn and the father goes to the king.
20:33What does the king do?
20:34The king says, alright, revered Brahmin, you have come to me, tell me, what in the world
20:40do you need?
20:41Ask me for wealth.
20:42Says, you keep the wealth to yourself.
20:46You tell me of the stuff that you spoke to my boy.
20:50Then deep insight into the mind that leads to the Upanishads.
20:59When you have a mind like this, when you have social conditions like these, that's when
21:05the Upanishads result.
21:09The king is offering money.
21:11The father is saying, I don't need money, I need knowledge.
21:14I'm accountable to my child.
21:16I'm accountable to myself as well because I told my child, when I will know, I will
21:21teach you.
21:22Had I known, I would have taught you.
21:24So my prime responsibility is to know, not to accumulate or gather.
21:34I'm obliged not so much to be rich, but to be knowledgeable.
21:44So this is the process of Vedanta and it is the process that is important.
21:59If you can have that process, then Vedanta is an unending stream.
22:06You will have Upanishads today as well.
22:10And that process must continue even today because the things that you are seeing in
22:16this excerpt fundamentally, internally continue even today.
22:22Don't people have boys today?
22:24If people have boys today, by boys I mean kids, boys and girls both.
22:28If people have kids today, then they are responsible to educate them in the inner sense.
22:41Not just the education the kids get in schools, but real inner life education.
22:49And when you are teaching that stuff to your kids, then you must tell the kids that it
22:58is not the knowledge that I'm giving you is important, but your honesty towards knowledge.
23:09It is a good thing to know, but it is a higher thing to admit when you do not know.
23:18If you know, but you do not know to confess your ignorance when you face it, then all
23:27your knowledge is worthless.
23:31So even if Shwetaketu couldn't answer the questions of the royals, he still didn't miserably
23:40fail.
23:43He passed the test of honesty.
23:46All right, I do not know at the level of knowledge what you're asking me.
23:51But one thing I know for sure, when I do not know, I must admit.
23:57I will admit I do not know and I'll go back to father and ask him, why didn't you teach
24:00me this stuff?
24:02And father says, all right, I couldn't teach you this stuff, but let me at least not fail
24:08in teaching you honesty.
24:12Being the son, if you could admit to the princess that you do not know, being the father, how
24:19can I fail in admitting to you that I do not know?
24:25If Shwetaketu does well, the father does better.
24:29Because it is easier sometimes to acknowledge your ignorance in front of outsiders, but
24:36very difficult to acknowledge your ignorance in front of your own family members, especially
24:46your sons and daughters.
24:48So the father does that and the father does not stop there.
24:53The father then wants to redress his ignorance.
24:59So he goes to the king and the king is saying, you're a top scholar, you have come to me.
25:09Tell me, how do I serve you?
25:11What goods do you need?
25:12He says, no goods needed, something far more important.
25:17Tell me of the stuff you were speaking to my boy.
25:21And the king says, not that you have asked for it, I'll share it with you, I'll educate
25:27you in that.
25:28Now what the king tells the Brahmin, I repeat, is not of much practical utility today.
25:36But these attitudes are very important.
25:40The process that leads to the generation of true knowledge, that is very important.
25:46And that process cannot change, that process is timeless.
25:49The output of that process might be time dependent, but the process has to be timeless.
25:56Knowledge is not something that can belong to one particular age and gets irrelevant
25:59in another age.
26:04People had to be inquisitive then, people have to be inquisitive today.
26:08And if you're not inquisitive towards your inner condition, you may never come to know
26:13how bad the inner condition really is.
26:17And that is where we are actually doing far worse than the ancients.
26:25The ancients, to be truthful, did not really have great outer and material conditions.
26:32There is no need to glamorize the worldly tangible conditions of those times.
26:40And they cannot be faulted for that.
26:42Because knowledge is an accumulative process, one generation builds upon the knowledge of
26:47the other generation.
26:48Today, if you have so much science and technology, that does not prove that this generation is
26:54especially brilliant or outstanding.
26:57It merely means that this generation stands at the receiving end of hundreds of previous
27:04generations.
27:05You have received all their accumulated knowledge and you are enjoying that.
27:15They were the ones who were not at the receiving end of knowledge generated by several previous
27:21generations.
27:24Man's consciousness was just opening up.
27:27Knowledge was just beginning to be generated, unlike today.
27:31Unlike today, when we are luckily the inheritors of so much that our predecessors have already
27:42done, known and struggled for.
27:48So, they did not really have great material conditions, but they had great internal conditions.
28:04And that great internal condition is what we need to learn from them today because we
28:09have great in terms of material wealth and prosperity and all.
28:17Great external conditions, but pathetic internal condition.
28:22Now, let us not make the blunder of learning external things from them.
28:28There, they really do not have much to teach.
28:31It is a double whammy, where they really have much to teach, there we do not want to learn
28:38from them.
28:39The internal stuff, we do not want to learn from them.
28:43Externally, where they really never had much, there we want to glamorize what they had.
28:58Needlessly, artificially, falsely make things up.
29:07And we want to claim that the new nuclear energy, that they had all kinds of science
29:13and technology.
29:14They had none of that.
29:17If you want to learn science and technology from them, you will fail because they never
29:22had much science and technology to offer.
29:25I am sure that this would hurt a lot of people who want to entertain them with the belief
29:36that all the knowledge was already there with the ancients.
29:40No, it was not.
29:43But they had something, I am saying far, far more important than material knowledge.
29:50And that is what you need to learn from them.
29:52Are we getting it?
29:55Learn the right thing from the right person.
29:59You cannot go to the Vedas and try to learn science and technology.
30:03They were not written to teach you science.
30:06But followers of religious sects take great pride in declaring that all the scientific
30:13knowledge is already contained in our holy book, which is a lot of nonsense.
30:18This claim holds no ground.
30:22But the right scripture has something else.
30:26And that something else will never become outdated.
30:30That something else is the juice of life.
30:33That something else will always remain supremely important.
30:41And that is understanding of the mind, the purpose of life, the right view towards life.
30:58And that is why I find this particular excerpt from Chandogya very meaningful.
31:08If you start getting into the content of the knowledge that the royals had and grilled
31:16Shwet Ketu on, you will not find much there.
31:20Maybe some symbolic meaning can be there.
31:25But even the symbolism you will find too far-fetched.
31:31But the other thing is very important.
31:34Look at the relationship between the father and the son, between the father and the king,
31:39between the individual and knowledge, between the individual and ignorance.
31:44That's what you need to learn from here.
31:46Learn the right things from the Upanishads.
31:50Know what to take from where.
31:57History is to be learned from history books.
32:00If you go to the Upanishads and start looking for history, you will come up with all kinds
32:06of distorted conclusions.
32:12Religion is not something you can learn, for example, from a history book.
32:25A spiritual text is that which concerns itself with self-knowledge.
32:33That is defining characteristic, not all the other things.
32:40The other things can be kept aside.
32:42They may have some relevance, but no spiritual dimension whatsoever.
32:53Yes, questions?