Panorama.2019.04.08.Can.We.Trust.Huawei

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Panorama.2019.04.08.Can.We.Trust.Huawei
Transcript
00:00Huawei, it's the Chinese tech giant that's taking over the world.
00:08Very soon, our government will decide if the company will be allowed to build our next
00:13generation mobile network, which will transform the way we live.
00:19It's like going from Earth to Mars.
00:21It's not a faster world, it's a different world.
00:23But Huawei is also a controversial company.
00:28Look, we have met the enemy, and it is Huawei, and it is China.
00:31Make no doubt about that.
00:33The fear is that they could take down our country.
00:36We've got to be sure, we've got to be certain, otherwise in 10 years, 20 years, that could
00:42just come back and bite us really badly.
00:45The US wants us to ban Huawei.
00:47I see a threat from the Communist Party in China over the next decades, and that threat
00:53could be implemented through Huawei gear.
00:55Huawei says the US doesn't know what it's talking about.
00:58We have a country here that virtually uses no Huawei equipment, and doesn't even know
01:03whether our 5G equipment is square or round.
01:06So tonight on Panorama, can we trust Huawei?
01:26Whenever you're out and about, your mobile phone communicates with the rest of the world
01:30through these.
01:31Calls, messages and data are sent from masts like this to hundreds of phones within a few
01:39kilometres, and each of those phones send calls and data back again.
01:44It's a lot of work for one mast to do, and it kind of explains why if there are too many
01:48phones in any one area, things start to slow down.
01:53But it won't always be like this.
01:57Our next mobile network will be the fifth generation, called 5G, and it will be very
02:03different to what's come before.
02:061G was about the analogue phone, allowing us to make calls to one another.
02:102G allowed us to do things like send SMS text messages and do voice recording.
02:163G was about the promise of the smartphone, allowing us to access digital broadband services.
02:22And 4G, which is what we've had since 2009, allowed us to do all of those first three
02:26things, but just faster.
02:285G is like going from Earth to Mars.
02:31It's not a faster world, it's a different world.
02:34It's going to be a world that's going to be connected, in which machines will be talking
02:37to each other and talking to you.
02:42And to achieve that, we're going to have lots and lots of antennae everywhere.
02:48Lamp posts, buildings, you name it, it's going to have an antenna on it.
02:54That's because there are billions and billions of new devices waiting to be connected that
03:00will communicate with each other, work with each other, and make our lives easier in ways
03:05we can't yet imagine.
03:07TV off, lights off.
03:08TV off, lights off.
03:11It will allow you to control your energy consumption in your smart home.
03:16It will allow your fridge to decide when to order groceries for you and have them delivered
03:20by a self-driving truck.
03:22It will allow your dishwasher to decide when it needs to wash dishes, your laundry machine
03:25when it decides to wash clothes.
03:27So right now, we have to instruct our machines, but in a 5G world, our machines might decide
03:33to communicate directly to us or with each other.
03:40The machines will start communicating simply to regulate the flow of human activity.
03:46Your car is going to be connecting and thinking and interacting and communicating with every
03:52other sensor that happens as it's walking down the street, as it passes a building,
03:55as it passes somebody on a bicycle, information from a traffic light three blocks down that
04:00you can't even see yet.
04:01It's going to be completely seamless.
04:03As 5G networks connect and run more of our infrastructure, the theory goes they will
04:08give a massive boost to the economy.
04:13The technology is ready to go, and if we delay the rollout, there are fears that we could
04:18fall behind other countries.
04:21So can we afford to wait?
04:24The UK is currently one of the leading countries for 5G deployment in the world.
04:28That is attracting lots of good external investment, people trialling new applications and testing
04:32new services that utilise 5G in the UK, launching them here first.
04:37If all the operators had to slow down for 12 to 18 months, those investment opportunities
04:41would go elsewhere.
04:42But whoever's chosen to supply all of this equipment is going to be everywhere.
04:50And the company that's way ahead of the rest with 5G technology is a Chinese firm called
04:56Huawei.
04:58They already provide equipment in our existing mobile networks.
05:03They have fantastic R&D resources and in most product areas across the mobile network
05:07they are the number one or number two.
05:09We choose them because often they're the best product in the particular areas of the network
05:13that we want.
05:14If you've heard of Huawei, it might be because of these.
05:21I'm in Paris to witness the mega launch of Huawei's latest phone.
05:26Over the last few years, the company has come from nowhere to become one of the biggest
05:31mobile phone brands.
05:33There are now more than half a billion Huawei phones in use around the world.
05:38I first started to notice Huawei and its products, I'd say about eight years ago.
05:42And if I'm honest, I thought they were run of the mill at best, possibly even second
05:47rates.
05:48But over the years that's changed and in some areas they are really now leading the field.
05:54But it's not phones which are catching the attention of governments the world over.
05:59It's their position as the world's largest manufacturer of telecoms equipment.
06:07Nine and a half thousand kilometres east of Paris, France, and I'm in Paris, China.
06:15We've been given access to Huawei's brand new campus in Shenzhen, a huge site where
06:20employees take a train between office buildings, each of which is modelled on a different European
06:26city.
06:28New journalists have visited this Disney World-like project, very much the brainchild
06:33of Rong Zhengfei, the company's founder and a huge classical architecture fan.
06:39He's been compared to the likes of Steve Jobs, and in 30 years he's grown his company from
06:44a small workshop to a global tech giant, now employing 180,000 people.
06:51He's not modest about his success.
06:58I am an ambitious man.
07:00If someone can focus on one thing, then they will definitely succeed.
07:05I was focused on communications technology.
07:07If I had focused on raising pigs, I might have become a pig expert.
07:12If I had focused on making tofu, I might have become the king of tofu.
07:17Unfortunately I chose communications.
07:21Huge spending on research means Huawei claim they're now around 18 months ahead of any
07:27other 5G manufacturer.
07:30Many of our technologies are already far ahead of those by Western companies.
07:35Not just in 5G, or optical switching, or our chipsets.
07:40The number of technologies in which we're leading is huge, and these are complex technologies.
07:46But this is also a company facing some serious issues.
07:52The biggest is that the US is coming for Huawei in a big way.
07:57Look, we have met the enemy, and it is Huawei, and it is China.
08:00Make no doubt about that.
08:02Right now, Lou, Huawei, through access to unlimited capital from the Chinese government,
08:07the communist government, all of this technology, guess what, it's built in for cyber spying,
08:12for cyber espionage, because that's what the Chinese do.
08:18This is Meng Wanzhou, the company's chief financial officer, being arrested in Vancouver
08:24in December.
08:26The US wants to extradite her to face trial on charges relating to Huawei's dealings with
08:31Iran.
08:32Her arrest caused a major upset in American-Chinese relations, mainly because she's also the daughter
08:39of Huawei's founder.
08:42The US also claims the company is guilty of stealing other companies' ideas and technology,
08:48saying it ran a scheme that paid its staff bonuses if they swiped confidential information
08:53from competitors.
08:55It's denied by Huawei.
08:58Both sets of charges expose Huawei's brazen and persistent actions to exploit American
09:04companies and financial institutions, and to threaten the free and fair global marketplace.
09:11If found guilty, Madame Meng could face decades in jail.
09:19I object to what the US has done.
09:21This kind of politically motivated act is not acceptable.
09:25The problem is Mr. Ren was once a member of China's People's Liberation Army, and that's
09:31raised suspicions about his links to the Chinese state, and whether it and Huawei may have
09:37each other's back.
09:40Shortly after Madame Meng was arrested in Canada, two Canadian citizens were detained
09:46in China on unspecified national security charges, and another had a previous sentence
09:52increased to the death penalty.
09:55As a communist party's company, it is evil.
10:03We shouldn't trust this.
10:07What's interesting is that from the Chinese side, there is a view that Huawei is an iconic
10:12company.
10:14Madame Meng is an interesting figure in that company, and that she is the princess who
10:21is the hostage of Canada acting at the behest of the United States.
10:26So we've got parallel hostage narratives going on both sides.
10:33America is convinced that Huawei is a pawn of the Chinese authorities.
10:38In 2017, China passed the National Intelligence Law, which says that if asked, all Chinese
10:45companies and citizens must help the government to assist national intelligence.
10:52China claims this is part of an effort to safeguard its security.
10:56But the fear is that if Huawei supplies any country's 5G network, the Chinese could exploit
11:03it for espionage.
11:05In the US, Congressman Mike Conaway helped push through a law that in effect prevents
11:12America's major telecoms networks from doing business with Huawei.
11:16I see a threat from the Communist Party in China over the next decades, and that threat
11:22could be implemented through Huawei gear and equipment and networks.
11:25And of course we're going to protect ourselves from things that the Chinese government, the
11:31Communist Chinese, would want to do to take advantage of America.
11:34But is there actually any evidence out there to suggest there's anything wrong with Huawei's
11:38products at the moment?
11:39The evidence would be Xi Jinping's own vision for China over the next decades, and the influence
11:45he has on those companies cannot be discounted.
11:49Anybody who does is fooling themselves.
11:53Ryan Ding is one of Huawei's most senior executives.
11:58He's dismissive of the US's accusations.
12:03The customers and countries that have used Huawei's equipment find Huawei to be a trustworthy
12:09company.
12:10In contrast, we have a country here that virtually uses no Huawei equipment, that doesn't even
12:15know whether our 5G equipment is square or round, and yet it has been incessantly expressing
12:20security concerns over Huawei.
12:23I don't want to speculate on whether they have other purposes with this kind of talk.
12:29I would rather focus the limited time that I have on making better products.
12:37The Americans, along with Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, routinely share
12:42secret intelligence with each other.
12:44Now the US is putting pressure on its allies to ban Huawei.
12:50Australia has complied, and now America has warned the UK there'll be consequences if
12:56we don't.
12:58I think there could be a real concern about the ability to fully share information because
13:05of the fear that the network that would undergird 5G in the UK, that there might be a vulnerability.
13:13If a country decides to put themselves at risk that way, we can't put ourselves at risk
13:17that way, and it will then begin to limit what we can do with them and how we share
13:21things.
13:22I mean, we can always share things old school ways, by paper, back and forth, but in terms
13:27of being able to electronically communicate across a Huawei gear or Huawei networks would
13:33be risky at best.
13:36This then is the choice that America is asking our politicians to make.
13:41Either we ban Huawei or we compromise intelligence sharing.
13:46It does feel a bit like a threat.
13:48I think it's all too easy to rush to a conclusion that we should just exclude any company from
13:55China, for example.
13:57But I think we should reach our own robust analysis based on the evidence of what level
14:03of relationship is appropriate.
14:06We shouldn't just blindly follow the Americans.
14:09To help the government decide whether Huawei should be in our 5G network, the British security
14:15services have a special unit devoted to looking at the potential risks they pose.
14:22It's overseen by Dr Ian Levy.
14:24His job is to defend the UK against digital attacks.
14:30He rarely gives interviews.
14:33Does Huawei pose more of a security risk than the other companies that supply the network
14:39infrastructure?
14:40So I think what we're talking about is assume the Chinese state wants to attack the UK telecoms
14:47networks.
14:48Our job is to try and make them work just as hard, regardless about whether we use Huawei
14:52kit or not.
14:54Many people think the Chinese state would love to eavesdrop on us.
14:58So if we let Huawei into 5G, is that a real danger?
15:03It's no more likely to have spying on communications in 5G than it is in 4G.
15:07Anything that's critical, whether it's government, business, even personal communications, should
15:12be encrypted.
15:13So all of the communications with your bank from your smartphone, they're all encrypted
15:18because you don't want to trust the Wi-Fi and the telecoms network.
15:21So if someone's listening on the line, they'll just get gobbled.
15:23They get gobbledygook.
15:24Yep.
15:25And it's the same for critical stuff in business, in government, in control systems.
15:31So according to GCHQ, the threat of spying appears overstated.
15:38But there is another threat they take very seriously.
15:43In a future where our entire infrastructure, our economy and our lives are run by computers
15:48talking to each other over a 5G network, what would happen if someone shut that network
15:55down?
15:56If you think about it, the future of warfare is not necessarily going to be using traditional
16:02armies in the way that we think of, like with the Second World War.
16:05The future of warfare is most likely going to be cyber.
16:07So without firing a shot, you could take a country out.
16:12It's feared that the Chinese state could order Huawei to build secret ways into our 5G network,
16:19things called backdoors.
16:22These would leave the country vulnerable to a UK-wide cyber attack.
16:27And that could be catastrophic.
16:32We have seen existing types of attacks where on websites, for example, they're flooded
16:37with so much data that they can't operate properly.
16:39When it comes to the 5G network controlling so many different aspects of our lives, imagine
16:44a scenario where that network, the 5G network, could be potentially flooded with data such
16:50that it just fails to function.
16:52So for example, train signals, they're not going to allow trains to run unless they can
16:56run safely.
16:57So train stations are potentially closing.
17:00Traffic lights, the communication systems that the transportation sector uses, rely
17:06on passing real-time information from one place to another.
17:12If an attacker has the access to that information, then they could change that information really easily.
17:24But as we get towards more autonomous vehicles, they will become dependent on 5G networks.
17:30Self-driving cars rely on hundreds of sensors.
17:33So if you bombard the self-driving car with a lot of information, then what you might
17:39see is actually the safety feature to kick in.
17:42And just not start, they'll become a hunk of metal.
17:45Power, gas, water, they are all going to become increasingly dependent on smart measuring
17:53devices, all of which, of course, will be connected via 5G.
17:57Lights on.
17:59Lights on.
18:01Lights on.
18:02If they start to get conflicting or confused results, again, they will probably play safe
18:07and shut down.
18:16Potentially, we're getting into a situation where if it happens widely enough, then imagine
18:21this happening to an individual power station, how many power stations do you need to go
18:25down for the grid to start being affected?
18:27Not very many, as it happens.
18:36Cyber security is about trust.
18:38You need to trust the people that are building your most sensitive core networks.
18:42And if you have countries that are known to spy, you have to be really careful.
18:47Geopolitical considerations, unfortunately, have to weigh in to your telecommunications
18:52supply chain decisions.
18:55So would Huawei deliberately expose its foreign customers to a Beijing-backed attack?
19:01There's this repeated accusation that's made, the idea that if the Chinese government tells
19:07you to install a backdoor, your company would have to do it.
19:14The Chinese government explicitly requires all Chinese companies to strictly follow local
19:20laws in every country they operate in.
19:24Secondly, the Chinese government has never and will never ask any Chinese enterprise to
19:31install backdoors.
19:35I can say with certainty that Huawei has never installed backdoors in its equipment in the
19:41past, and neither will we do such a thing in the future.
19:46But the latest GCHQ-backed reports published in March found that there are security holes
19:54in Huawei's equipment.
19:56What was the overall result of your report into Huawei?
20:01The security engineering at Huawei is unlike anything else.
20:03It's engineering like it's back in the year 2000.
20:07It's very, very shoddy and leads to cyber security issues that we then need to manage
20:14long term.
20:16Do you have any evidence that the vulnerabilities that are in Huawei's products were put there
20:21deliberately?
20:22We do specifically say in there that we don't believe the things we're reporting on are
20:27the evidence of Chinese state malfeasance.
20:29So it's just bad engineering?
20:31It's poor engineering.
20:35The problem is, however these vulnerabilities get into a network, whether deliberately or
20:40because of bad engineering practices, they can still be used to attack it.
20:46Huawei don't deny that there is a problem with their security.
20:53The board of directors passed a resolution and decided that the company was going to
20:58invest two billion US dollars to launch a transformation program that will enhance our
21:03software engineering capabilities.
21:06We hope to turn this challenge into an opportunity moving forward.
21:10I believe that if we can carry out this program as planned, Huawei will become the strongest
21:16player in the telecom industry in terms of security and reliability.
21:24So this is the two billion dollars is the transformation program that they've announced.
21:28As we say in the report, we've seen nothing to give us any confidence that that transformation
21:33program is going to do what they say it's going to do.
21:35So what are they going to spend that two billion dollars on?
21:39They haven't told us yet.
21:43Huawei have since told us they will release more detailed plans early in the summer.
21:49An incident we've uncovered in Pakistan further demonstrates the benefits of close oversight.
21:57In 2016, following a series of devastating terrorist bombings, the Pakistani authorities
22:03announced the Safe City Project in Lahore.
22:08It would provide a vast surveillance network of CCTV cameras and other sensors and a brand
22:14new communications system for the emergency services.
22:18Huawei's enterprise division was brought in to deliver the scheme.
22:22But after its kit was installed, the project staff made a discovery.
22:28Tiny Wi-Fi transmitting cards were found to have been plugged into hundreds of the CCTV
22:34camera cabinets.
22:36Huawei confirmed it had installed the gear.
22:39Two people involved with the projects, who've asked to remain anonymous, say the explanation
22:43given was that a Wi-Fi link could make it easier for engineers to troubleshoot problems
22:48when they stood close to the cabinets without having to open them up.
22:51The thing is, the cabinets could already be managed via the main network.
22:57As soon as you give someone another method of remote connectivity, you give them a method
23:02to attack it.
23:03Put a Wi-Fi card in, you're potentially giving somebody some other form of remote access
23:07to it.
23:08You might say it's done for one purpose, but as soon as you do that, it's got the potential
23:13to be misused.
23:14It's not unknown for equipment sellers to install extra gear to let them offer more
23:18services at a later date.
23:21But to avoid the potential for misuse, the safe city authority ordered the Wi-Fi cards
23:26be removed.
23:28According to Huawei, there had been a misunderstanding, but they said they couldn't comment further.
23:36Germany and the European Commission have said that they will not comment further.
23:41Germany and the European Commission have said that they will not ban Huawei outright.
23:46The UK's security services have suggested that Huawei's kit can only be used safely
23:52if that use is restricted.
23:55What bits of the network would you be happy for Huawei to be in and why?
24:01We may choose to do something interesting like geographic restrictions.
24:05So maybe there's no Huawei radio in Westminster.
24:08Those sorts of things are all options as we go forward in the 4G space and in current
24:13broadband.
24:14We're happy with Huawei being in parts of our network that are kind of done.
24:19They don't really understand the context of the traffic.
24:21So they know it's somebody's broadband at home, they don't know it's yours.
24:25They know it's a mobile phone somewhere around here, but they don't know it's mine.
24:29And because the Huawei kit doesn't have the brain, the sensitive part of the network,
24:34it doesn't really know what data is interesting.
24:37And even if China did want to attack our networks, there is a thought that just banning Huawei,
24:43one of many Chinese companies, wouldn't really help.
24:47The majority of products are assembled in China from components made in China and made
24:52elsewhere.
24:53So the Western brands that assemble their products in China and put their logos on the
24:58box are incorporating components that are made in China and assembled there.
25:04So they're just as vulnerable to cyber malfeasance as a Huawei product would be,
25:10or as we presume a Huawei product to be.
25:15The truth is, no system can ever be completely secure.
25:19And the more secure you make it, the more it costs and the less flexible it is.
25:24The choice is now in the hands of our politicians.
25:28It's a massive decision.
25:29You know, if government and the country wants this delivered on a timely basis,
25:35then engaging with providers such as Huawei will be necessary.
25:41If we don't have any involvement from Huawei and others, then the rollout will be slower.
25:47Let's make a proper analysis of risk and then apply the same rules to everyone.
25:57But I think, you know, the fact that this country will significantly benefit from the
26:03rollout of 5G should also be taken into account.
26:07This is about risk management.
26:09If you are in a situation where you have a company that's headquartered in a country
26:14that has the capability and has coercive laws to potentially force one of their companies
26:24to do something, no matter what the good intentions of that company are,
26:28then you've got to think to yourself, is that a risk I can really manage?
26:33And I think the conclusion that we've seen come out recently is that at the moment, that's not.
26:38What would be the consequences of not letting Huawei into the UK's 5G network?
26:43If we're unable to use Huawei technology in 5G, we would first of all have to replace
26:47all of those Huawei 4G base stations with somebody else's 4G base station
26:51and then deploy 5G on top of that.
26:53That costs a lot of money, but it takes an awful lot of time.
26:57Huawei is the flagship of a country that is on the rise.
27:01They're so proud of the company here, they even make songs about it.
27:14You don't need to spend a lot of time in China to see that the power is definitely shifting.
27:19Just a few decades ago, Shenzhen was a fishing village.
27:25Today, it's a megalopolis of around 13 million people and home to China's tech revolution.
27:34Within the last year, every single taxi and bus in this enormous city has gone electric.
27:41This is just one result of China's ability to push things through.
27:46While the UK has been anguishing over HS2, thousands of miles of high-speed rail have been built
27:52linking Shenzhen with other cities across the country.
27:56So it's clear the Chinese are making massive strides in high-tech.
28:01But GCHQ says that until Huawei get their house in order,
28:05it will be difficult to manage the risks posed by their new 5G products.
28:11So will our politicians decide that the benefits outweigh those risks?
28:17Will they trust Huawei?
28:24We're going back behind the scenes as the stores fight to stay ahead of the trend.
28:28Supermarket Secrets returns on Wednesday at 8.
28:30And in law, there is the accused and there is the victim.