75 percent Win Rate! From the first FTR750 engine to the final legal season for the bike and 8 championships, Cycle World was there. Technical Editor Kevin Cameron and Editor-in-Chief Mark Hoyer talk about the origin and development of the motorcycle that dominated American Flat Track since its introductory 2017 season. There is, of course, a deep tech dive, plus all the extras you’ve come to expect!
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Shopping for a motorcycle? Get pre-approved for that R 1300 GS you always wanted: https://octane.co/flex/1?a=171
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SportsTranscript
00:00Welcome back to the Cycleworld Podcast.
00:03I'm Mark Hoyer, Editor-in-Chief.
00:05I'm with Kevin Cameron, our Technical Editor.
00:07This week's episode is
00:10the Indian FTR 750, the flat track race machine.
00:14Not production or production?
00:17That's a question we'll try to answer.
00:20It was...
00:23It was...
00:24We coincidentally just recently recorded
00:27a podcast on the XR 750, the Harley Davidson,
00:30that has raced and won for decades
00:33and can still win, but it just, you know,
00:36just need a little RPM update and a few other things.
00:39But...
00:41So we coincidentally recorded that
00:43and then we heard the news that the FTR 750
00:46was no longer going to be legal
00:48in American flat track
00:50and that American flat track was moving to
00:54production-based race bikes.
00:57And that would render the FTR 750
01:02illegal by the rules that you have to
01:05have a production bike that can be bought
01:08and I guess used on the street, even though...
01:11So that there have to be 400 of them.
01:13Yeah, well that...
01:14There you go, that too.
01:16Carefully chosen number.
01:19We were fortunate to be there at the very beginning
01:24with Cycleworld and Swiss Auto and Indian
01:28where the bike was developed
01:31and they had a tight network of parts suppliers.
01:34That was one of the advantages of Swiss Auto
01:36is that they had tremendous...
01:38They have tremendous R&D
01:40and development experience in combustion engines
01:43and also a great little network of folks
01:46to make parts for them.
01:48And so the engine came together quite rapidly
01:50and we got to be there.
01:51Kevin Cameron was there
01:53and our photographer was there.
01:54So there was some beautiful photography from that
01:57and we got to go to early tests.
01:59And I was in Santa Rosa when the bike debuted
02:02and Joe Kopp...
02:04Go Joe!
02:05Love you buddy because you're my age
02:07and you were out there smashing.
02:09You were just ripping at Santa Rosa.
02:12And I think what I saw was the passing of the torch
02:15in a small moment on the front straightaway.
02:18Brad Baker was racing an XR750
02:20and he also...
02:21I mean Brad Baker is just a genius
02:24on a motorcycle flat track bike.
02:27And he was really, really competitive
02:33but the bike broke in one of the heats, semis, whatever.
02:36And Joe Kopp pushed him up the front straight
02:40on the FTR750
02:42and I thought,
02:43I think I just witnessed the torch passing here.
02:45Because Vance and Hines had showed up
02:48but the internal effort and development on the bike
02:53had kind of wound down.
02:55So it was doing that.
02:59It was breaking.
03:00It was going really fast
03:01but they were spinning it too fast.
03:02And we'd go listen to the XR podcast.
03:05But here comes the FTR.
03:07So you were there Kevin.
03:08What was it like to see that engine the first time?
03:12Well, I went to Switzerland
03:15and Switzerland has all these roads
03:19that are one and a half lanes
03:21on a steep hillside
03:23where if you're in a vehicle,
03:27forget about,
03:28well, I'm going to steer downhill
03:30and hope that it levels off
03:31so I can use the brakes.
03:33You're going to endo.
03:34You're done for.
03:36And people sail along these roads
03:38as happy as a clam.
03:40It's a little disquieting at first
03:42but you get to your destination.
03:45And at Swiss Auto,
03:50they had engine parts laid out on a big table
03:53so that I could look at everything.
03:57And they had laid on a dyno run.
04:01Now, the wonderful contrast in dyno testing
04:07is that you're in the office
04:11with the technicians and the computers
04:16separated by double glass
04:18from this monster that is shaking,
04:24visibly shaking with combustion fury
04:27and raging and roaring away.
04:29And it draws this beautiful torque curve.
04:34Out of all that action
04:36came smooth torque delivery
04:39like an electric motor.
04:42In fact, it was the first Euro 5 type
04:46torque curve that I'd seen.
04:49And I was very impressed with this
04:53because it began at 7 to be flat.
04:587,000 rpm, right?
05:00Yep, yep.
05:01And then it was just beginning to drop
05:06as it approached 11,000.
05:09And Urs Finger, the engine guy,
05:14said, well, we chose the bore
05:17based on the size of valves
05:19that we would need to make 110 horsepower
05:22at 10,000 rpm.
05:24And that was 88 millimeters.
05:26So the engine is 88 by 61.5.
05:30And that's a bore stroke ratio of 1.43,
05:34which if you look at the evolution
05:37of super bike production engines,
05:40that puts it somewhere in the early
05:42to mid 90s.
05:44So it's not extreme.
05:47It's quite different from the Harley,
05:50which is three and an eighth
05:53by just under three inches,
05:56nearly square.
05:59So forget all that stuff
06:01about long strokes make more torque
06:04because one thing that makes torque
06:07is piston area.
06:08Because the more area there is,
06:11the more square inches
06:13of whatever pressures
06:14in the combustion chamber there are.
06:16Pushing, pushing, pushing.
06:18And even if the stroke
06:19isn't tremendously long,
06:21that very large piston area
06:23and the force on it
06:25can draw this beautiful line.
06:29Now, the torque curve for the XR,
06:34I was familiar with
06:35because I was the AMA's observer
06:37when they did the restrictor tests,
06:39when Bubba Schobert showed
06:41that the Harley Davidson XR
06:44could be beaten.
06:47There were a lot of people
06:49who were unhappy.
06:51People who might ask the question,
06:53what's wrong with Harley Davidson
06:55winning 50 national championships
06:57since 1953?
07:01And of course, they have a point
07:03because if everyone's on the same machine,
07:05you're likely to get some close racing,
07:07which is what American flat track
07:09is famous, justly famous for.
07:14So it seems crazy,
07:18but it turned out not to be
07:22that hard for Indian
07:24to build a winning machine
07:26because of course,
07:27they brought examples
07:29of competitor's bikes.
07:32They measured, they dynoed.
07:36They had, I think it was C&J,
07:39build them chassis.
07:42And like an XR,
07:45the FTR chassis,
07:48the complete motorcycle,
07:50is as though you took two wheels
07:52and crowded them
07:55as close to the engine as possible
07:58so that the front wheel on full bump
08:01was about to either kiss the header pipe
08:04from that cylinder or the radiator
08:07in the case of the FTR.
08:08And the rear wheel,
08:11the swing arm is a triangulated,
08:13pretty rudimentary looking thing,
08:15just as close to the swing arm pivot,
08:18which is just as close to the gearbox
08:20as can be.
08:22Spindly, spindly little swing arm,
08:25spindly chassis.
08:27And there's a reason for that too,
08:30because if you're doing things
08:35in the dirt where there are bumps
08:37hidden under all kinds of loose stuff,
08:39things you can't predict,
08:41you would like the wheels
08:43to be able to move,
08:45even though you're leaned over
08:47and the suspension is at the wrong angle,
08:50you'd like the wheels to be able to move
08:52up over the bump and then spring back down
08:55to maintain good contact.
08:58Now, I was hearing reports
09:01from my friend Jim Chicalla,
09:03who does a lot of independent dyno work
09:06with some dirt track people.
09:08And he was telling me about
09:10these fellows building
09:12125 horsepower KTM twins
09:15that were aimed at just
09:19crushing everything in their sight.
09:21And they didn't accomplish anything.
09:24And people just weren't
09:28understanding it.
09:30So, the obvious fact is
09:33that in its many years
09:36of continuous development,
09:38the XR was not designed in 1972
09:41and continued to win all these years.
09:44It was fielded in 1972
09:48and design continued throughout its life.
09:51For example,
09:53the stiffness of the valve train
09:56increased by a factor of something like
09:58four times in order to give them
10:01better latitude in being able
10:04to design valve motions
10:07that a pushrod and rocker system
10:09could actually transmit.
10:11And which would not devolve
10:13into a series of,
10:15well, the rocker arm is twisting
10:17and the pushrod is doing this
10:20and everything else is
10:23trying to get out from under all that force.
10:26And it's singing each part,
10:28it's singing its own song.
10:30And you can look at it
10:33on the motion curve.
10:35They measure the motion of valves
10:37by means of laser interferometry.
10:41Which just means
10:43they shine light on the thing.
10:45It's a single frequency,
10:46that's why it's a laser.
10:48And they count how many interference fringes
10:51the valve has moved.
10:53There's a device on there
10:54that counts faster than you and I do.
10:57And so,
10:59you can know the position of the valve
11:01to one wavelength of light.
11:05Pretty nice.
11:07Anyway,
11:09all this stuff
11:11resulted in the XR
11:14resembling dirt.
11:17It was worked on by generations,
11:20literally generations,
11:22of very bright people
11:25who were highly motivated.
11:28And
11:30supper, honey,
11:32in a minute.
11:38Who continued
11:40to refine the thing
11:42until it was essentially unbeatable.
11:45And at the end,
11:47when Bill Werner,
11:49former big Harley Davidson
11:52tuner and builder,
11:55began to run his
11:57Google acquired
12:00Kawasaki 650 twins,
12:04a situation developed in which
12:07the Harley with its large
12:09internal flywheels,
12:10great big flywheel discs,
12:13looking like, what,
12:1430 pounds of stuff in there
12:16whirling around.
12:17Very good on
12:20shorter tracks,
12:22looser or slippery surfaces
12:25versus
12:27Bill Werner's,
12:28Werner inspired
12:30Kawasaki twins
12:32on the mile
12:34because the things made
12:35some power.
12:37Because, of course, it's a modern
12:38four valve design and
12:40it had,
12:42it was a bigger corral
12:44in which all these
12:46clever tuners could work.
12:49So, along comes Indian
12:52in the form of Gary Gray,
12:55who's saying to himself
12:57and to Reed Wilson,
12:58who was, I think,
13:00in marketing,
13:02product planning,
13:03something like that.
13:04Yeah, he was leading the brand.
13:05He was doing product.
13:07He said,
13:10in 1953,
13:12Indian won its last
13:13Grand National Championship
13:15with
13:17Bill Tooman.
13:20And
13:21we'd kind of like to
13:23sort of get to grips with Harley
13:25and
13:26fight out this
13:27who's the most
13:29American brand
13:31or, I should say,
13:32the more American brand.
13:35And
13:37there was
13:38a certain amount of nodding and smiling.
13:40And so, it was decided in January
13:43of 2016
13:45to do this.
13:47And in May,
13:48I was shown a prototype chassis
13:50with
13:51engine and body work
13:52that had been rapid prototyped
13:54in plastic.
13:56And I was
13:58favored with a phone call
14:00to Urs Wenger
14:02in Switzerland
14:03to talk about
14:04the engine.
14:06And
14:07things just happened so fast.
14:09Pretty soon,
14:10let's,
14:12why don't you come down to Charlotte
14:14and watch this prototype test?
14:16And take in the race while you're here.
14:19Who could resist?
14:21And so,
14:23I got to see Jared Meese
14:26doing stop-and-start
14:28testing
14:29with the
14:30FTR prototype.
14:33And at one point,
14:36Gary Gray
14:37came over to me and said,
14:40I think you've been here long enough.
14:42We'd like you to leave now.
14:44And I thought,
14:45could that have something to do
14:46with the rattling and clicking
14:48of the external flywheel?
14:53Anyway.
14:54There are always problems
14:56in development.
14:57Yes, there are always problems.
14:58You cannot
14:59model everything
15:00and you can have all the experience
15:02in the world
15:03and you're still going to get
15:04clicks and rattles
15:05and oh darn,
15:06there's oil coming out the breather.
15:08I mean, it just happens.
15:11So,
15:15then
15:16the thing won the 2017
15:19Grand National Championship.
15:21And the 2018.
15:24And on and on.
15:26And it's
15:28doing pretty good right now.
15:30Yeah, they're on track for an eighth
15:31and Meese is looking at his tenth.
15:33Yeah, he's looking for his tenth championship.
15:36So,
15:37you can understand
15:39why some people would be saying,
15:42we've had
15:43we've had
15:44Harley dealership
15:45in our family here
15:46for 98 years.
15:48And what about us
15:50and other people
15:51who put a lot of money into
15:55custom built
15:56Kawasaki based,
15:58Yamaha based,
15:59KTM based
16:02bikes.
16:03So,
16:06American Flat Track
16:07American Flat Track
16:08was talking about a production
16:09an all production based class
16:12in 2016
16:14when
16:17Gary Gray phoned up and said,
16:18how about if we come with a
16:20purpose-built race bike
16:22to replace
16:24functionally replace the Harley XR.
16:27Well,
16:29the thing you have to know about
16:30American Flat Track
16:31is that it exists
16:33in a kind of limbo
16:35most of the time
16:36and in that limbo
16:38some people are saying,
16:39well, I've heard Kawasaki's coming in big
16:42next year probably.
16:44Oh yeah,
16:45I heard Yamaha's coming in pretty good.
16:48Only next month,
16:49there are a lot of people
16:50are getting some special parts there
16:52and it's all sort of like
16:55wish
16:57without fulfillment.
17:00And
17:03so
17:05the idea of an all production based class
17:07seemed ideal to people
17:09because
17:10how many engines are now listed
17:12as approved for next year?
17:14Quite a few.
17:1620 something.
17:19And
17:20it's easy to imagine
17:22or to sell yourself in your mind
17:24the idea that
17:26there'll be
17:27six guys in that leading group
17:29just
17:30shifting the lead constantly
17:32and there'll be
17:33six brands.
17:37But that assumes
17:39that all those
17:41production designs
17:42are equally suitable
17:44for conversion
17:45as dirt track race engines.
17:49And
17:50we know that
17:52lots and lots of cams
17:54were ground for the XR
17:55and for the FTR.
17:58But the new rules are saying
18:00that if you want to run
18:02a non-standard part
18:04it has to be essentially homologated.
18:07And
18:08it's the old chewing gum rule
18:09from grade school.
18:11Yes, you can chew gum in class
18:13but you have to bring enough for everyone.
18:17So
18:19before this was all defined by rules
18:21and it was a conversation
18:24Gary Gray
18:27talking to the air
18:30said
18:31what is production?
18:34And he said
18:35okay, let's look at the
18:37Kawasaki twin.
18:41And I cut in and said
18:43presumably we're talking about
18:45starting with a set of stock crankcases.
18:48Oh, I don't know about that.
18:50I've heard that
18:52they're welding and machining
18:54on the stock crankcase.
18:56And of course
18:57the crankshaft is not stock.
18:59To get the Yamaha to 750
19:01you have to overbore the cylinder
19:04and stroke the crankshaft.
19:07So
19:08Well, and the weights aren't equal either.
19:10The crankshaft for the Kawasaki
19:12you have to call the guy
19:13who makes the one that weighs a lot.
19:15So you get the inertia
19:16and you don't get
19:17just massive spin up.
19:19More in the direction
19:21of Harley's great mill wheels
19:23which
19:25were the way engines were naturally built
19:27in the beginning.
19:29And it has turned out to be
19:31really good on dirt.
19:33Which is why the FTR
19:35as produced
19:36had three alternate
19:38weights of external flywheel.
19:41When they began to win
19:43with what some would call
19:45monotonous regularity
19:47they said
19:48oh, no more
19:49variable
19:50external flywheels for you.
19:52And you have to run a lighter rear wheel.
19:54And
19:56we'd like you to have a 32mm
19:58the usual dance.
19:59Oh,
20:00you've shown excellence.
20:02Now you'll be punished.
20:04Yeah, I mean the
20:05so the
20:06intake was 38mm.
20:08Originally, yeah.
20:10And the restrictor was
20:11In the rule book.
20:12The rule book
20:13intake, yeah.
20:14Yeah.
20:15And then once they
20:16they got the restrictors
20:18a few years ago
20:19that reduced it to 34.
20:21And you don't think
20:22you know, I mean
20:23yeah, 4mm is whatever.
20:25But the area
20:26it's nearly
20:28It's huge.
20:29It's nearly a quarter.
20:3020, you know
20:3124 something percent.
20:32It's just nuts.
20:34You know, before we go down
20:35this path
20:36or I know we're down
20:37the production path.
20:38What is production?
20:41You know, the XG 750s were
20:43they
20:44look like they were
20:45they were made out of
20:46you know, Vanson Hines
20:47was like making them out of billet.
20:48You know, they just looked like
20:50they didn't look like an XG 750
20:53that you're getting
20:54at your local Harley dealership.
20:56You know.
20:57Well, Harley brought them over
20:58brought Vanson Hines
21:00this is in
21:01I guess
21:02outside Indian
21:03Indianapolis
21:04two engines
21:05and they sat there on the floor.
21:07Nobody wanted to lift them.
21:08They were
21:09looked pretty substantial.
21:10But
21:11after a while they
21:13they started studying it
21:14and they realized
21:15well, if we take
21:16all these outer covers off
21:18there's a pile of weight there.
21:20And what's inside the covers
21:23isn't all that big
21:25because one of the things
21:26that Harley likes to do
21:27is to have the
21:28a clutch that's up to the job
21:30and then put an enormous cover over it
21:32much like
21:33present day pickup trucks.
21:36The
21:37the nose of the thing
21:38is up to your head.
21:39You lift the hood
21:41stand on your tiptoes
21:42and look down
21:43way down inside
21:45is a little engine
21:47and you're thinking to yourself
21:49why
21:50this is a parade float.
21:53This is being done for effect.
21:55So the
21:56I got a 460 in my truck, buddy.
21:59Hey
22:00authenticity.
22:03So the
22:04Vance and Heinz guys
22:05have wonderful machine shop capabilities.
22:07It's all in CNC.
22:10They have rapid prototyping.
22:12They've got stuff.
22:14And
22:15they started making
22:16billet
22:17outer covers
22:18and they made them
22:19the right size
22:20for what was inside
22:21the engine looked a lot better
22:23and they just kept at it
22:25until they had
22:26a package that
22:28seemed sort of
22:30workable.
22:32But
22:34when I saw
22:37Terry Vance
22:38at
22:39Gainesville
22:42I had an opportunity
22:43to talk to him about the XG
22:46and I said
22:47it's sort of looking like
22:49maybe you're going to have to make heads for this thing.
22:52No, that horsepower is not really
22:54we don't have a problem with horsepower.
22:56It's
22:58it's getting the thing
23:00through the corners
23:01and accelerated down the straightaway.
23:05Yeah, it is.
23:08And when I've talked to people
23:11in that paddock
23:12they've sort of said
23:14well
23:15Vance and Heinz are a wonderfully versatile outfit
23:18and they
23:20just don't have
23:22haven't had the time to
23:24focus on dirt track long enough to get it.
23:28And
23:31this is
23:32this is no criticism of Vance and Heinz
23:34they've completed so many wonderful projects
23:37such as for example
23:38all those years
23:40of drag racing
23:41for Harley-Davidson
23:43with a motorcycle that contained no
23:46Harley-Davidson parts.
23:47Oh, look at Gage Herrera
23:49and the Suzuki Hayabusa
23:52in name.
23:54In name.
23:55I mean, it's
23:56it's very spiritually Hayabusa
23:58don't get me wrong
23:59but it's a Vance and Heinz
24:00it's a beautiful Vance and Heinz
24:02piece of equipment
24:03and it's
24:04it's really fast
24:05Gage is incredibly talented
24:07and he's
24:08he's really dominating
24:09and that's
24:10you know, Vance and Heinz effort
24:11and it's all the things that go behind that
24:13all that
24:14all the organization
24:15and institutional knowledge
24:16and material knowledge
24:17and all those pieces of equipment
24:19and the know-how to use it
24:20and turn it into something that actually works
24:23They ran factory team for Yamaha
24:26won a couple of Daytonas
24:28they ran a factory team for Ducati
24:30so
24:32it's
24:33it's sort of like
24:34criticizing Einstein
24:35for not being
24:36necessarily all that talented at boat building
24:40and
24:41boat building is a fine craft
24:43it's a fine craft
24:45but it might not have
24:48fitted with
24:49the gentleman's other activities
24:51anyway
24:54to sum up
24:55I had started talking about
24:57Gary Gray
24:58talking about
24:59what is production
25:00so
25:03after annihilating
25:04the bikes in the paddock
25:06that were not XRs
25:08he said
25:09the only production bike
25:11in the paddock
25:12is the RFTR
25:14because
25:15you can buy one
25:19you can buy any part for it
25:21all you need is the purchase price
25:24you don't have to know someone
25:26you don't have to have it made
25:28by someone whose
25:29day job is
25:30is NASA
25:31or some other highly specialized activity
25:35so
25:38he was making a cogent case
25:40that
25:42the FTR
25:43was actually a production bike
25:45not a
25:47a set of cases
25:48welded in a machine
25:50filled
25:51with non-standard parts
25:54hence the new rules for next year
25:56basically saying
25:57yes you can modify these parts
26:00but you have to
26:03stay within these limits
26:04if you want to replace a part
26:06you have to show that it
26:08is functionally the same
26:10and what have you
26:11such as a piston
26:12or a connecting rod
26:13or a crankshaft
26:16so
26:19then they
26:21how was it
26:22how was it that
26:23that Gary
26:24talked about
26:27they come and they shoot your dog
26:28oh no
26:29so
26:30I had the opportunity
26:31to talk to Gary on the phone
26:32and
26:33interview him basically
26:35about the situation
26:37and
26:38you know I said
26:39is there a future for the FTR
26:41and he said
26:42well it's hard to say
26:43I mean maybe someone
26:44will do another series
26:45where
26:46it would remain legal
26:47you know there's
26:48there's that
26:49but you know
26:50it isn't a production engine
26:51we didn't ever get an FTR
26:52750 street bike
26:53because it was never designed
26:54to go that route
26:56there was a four speed
26:57no place for an electric starter
26:58all those things
26:59yeah I mean it was
27:00you know
27:01it was built for a purpose
27:02and it served that purpose well
27:03and you know at the end of it
27:05they don't really have anything
27:06to do with it
27:08and then I said
27:09well
27:10you know
27:11what about this production based
27:12stuff
27:13you know do you have any plans
27:14to do that
27:15and he's like
27:16well
27:17you know
27:18we just
27:19we just found out about this
27:20not too long ago
27:22and it's like
27:23somebody shot my dog
27:25and now you're here
27:26you know
27:27somebody knocks on my door
27:28and they say
27:29hey I heard they shot your dog
27:30what kind of dog are you going to get
27:32so
27:33it was
27:34it was good
27:35it was solid
27:36but yeah it is
27:37it is
27:38it's a good shot
27:39basically
27:40you know
27:41to put all that effort into
27:42into that
27:43and it was
27:44say a little bit of
27:45like they always knew
27:46that that
27:47that AFT was going
27:48for a production based
27:49and they said
27:50hey how about it
27:51and they had I think
27:52a three year window
27:53where
27:54it was just
27:55until 2019
27:56yeah
27:57yeah for sure
27:58that they could use it
27:59and then like
28:00yeah we'd love to have you
28:01because they're invest
28:02yes
28:03like you
28:04because
28:05because
28:06AFT
28:07to expand
28:08they wanted to
28:09draw a new crowd
28:11and
28:12when
28:13Gary Gray phoned up
28:14and said
28:15we're coming with this
28:16we're going to build
28:17a race only motor
28:18it was hurrah
28:20they were delighted
28:21because okay
28:22we're thinking about
28:23a production class
28:24but if
28:25if you want to build
28:26for the class
28:27let's do it
28:28well somebody cared
28:29so if you're building
28:30somebody cared
28:31somebody cared
28:32and if you're doing it
28:33and they spent money behind it
28:34that's the thing
28:35I mean
28:36if you wanted
28:37American Flat Track
28:38to suddenly be
28:39very interesting
28:40then you need
28:41you need
28:42you know
28:43Suzuki
28:44Honda
28:45Yamaha
28:46you need everybody
28:47to bring money
28:48and make
28:49make it worthwhile
28:50for dealers to
28:51you know
28:52build bikes
28:53and give them
28:54the equipment to do that
28:55run a team
28:56run a team
28:57but yeah
28:58they cared
28:59and it was
29:00for
29:01it was a
29:02great thing to do
29:03for the brand
29:04so you know
29:05when they won
29:06victory
29:07at Polaris
29:08they worked hard
29:09on victory
29:10for a very long time
29:11and they made
29:12good motorcycles
29:13and they were
29:14well engineered
29:15and they
29:16you know
29:17they evolved
29:18their design
29:19and styling
29:20and their models
29:21and they built
29:22a great bike
29:23and they struggled
29:24to sell
29:2510,000 units
29:26a year
29:27in the first year
29:28after Polaris
29:29acquired Indian
29:30well not after
29:31not in the first year
29:32the first year
29:33of production
29:34for motorcycle
29:35sales
29:36because of
29:37Indian
29:38because of the
29:39name
29:40because of the name
29:41yeah
29:42it resonates
29:43you know
29:44your grandfather
29:45had one
29:46victories were
29:47really great
29:48but it wasn't
29:49it wasn't
29:50woven into
29:51your family
29:52history
29:53it hadn't been
29:54said a
29:55million times
29:56a billion
29:57times
29:58there was no
29:59Harley versus
30:00victory
30:01really
30:02no
30:03that's an
30:04endowment
30:05you know
30:06when you get a
30:07brand like that
30:08like Harley Davidson
30:09is an endowment
30:10like whoever's
30:11running Harley Davidson
30:12needs to treat it
30:13as an endowment
30:14and play the
30:15long game
30:16they know
30:17that
30:18their name
30:19is resident
30:20in so many
30:21people's brains
30:22what could be
30:23more valuable
30:24than that
30:25kind of
30:26recognition
30:27so whatever
30:28business
30:29companies
30:30again and
30:31again
30:32are
30:33heating the
30:34building
30:35by burning
30:36their identity
30:37yeah
30:38so
30:39Indian
30:40Polaris
30:41gets Indian
30:42and treats it
30:43like the
30:44endowment
30:45that it
30:46is
30:47because they've
30:48tried doing
30:49it without
30:50it
30:51and I
30:52think they
30:53could have
30:54continued
30:55and they
30:56would have
30:57continued
30:58to build
30:59good
31:00motorcycles
31:01but
31:02that's
31:03the
31:04void
31:05in the
31:06Indian
31:07motorcycle
31:08lover's
31:09brain
31:10that first
31:11motorcycle
31:12swoopy
31:13fenders
31:14it looks
31:15like a
31:16flathead
31:17it's got
31:18the push
31:19rod tubes
31:20it's
31:2130%
31:22larger
31:23than the
31:24last one
31:25that rolled
31:26off the
31:27line in
31:2853
31:29because it
31:30was
31:31too
31:32big
31:33and
31:34we
31:35need to
31:36justify
31:37our
31:38ownership
31:39and
31:40custodianship
31:41of this
31:42brand and
31:43that's why
31:44they started
31:45with swoopy
31:46fenders
31:47and the
31:48red color
31:49and they
31:50just put it
31:51on a
31:52platter and
31:53came out
31:54with it
31:55and the
31:56brand has
31:57definitely
31:58evolved and
31:59that was a
32:00conscious
32:01decision on
32:02their part
32:03is we need
32:04to earn
32:05the right
32:06to do
32:07these things
32:08and so
32:09finally they
32:10got into
32:11a position
32:12with product
32:13they came
32:14out with
32:15the scout
32:16it was
32:17definitely
32:18their volume
32:19sales leader
32:20great motorcycle
32:21I think very
32:22well pitched
32:23at the
32:24customer
32:25for that
32:26kind of
32:27motorcycle
32:28it's not
32:29what they're
32:30for
32:31it doesn't
32:32need stiffer
32:33suspension
32:34because it's
32:35for somebody
32:36who wants
32:37to relax
32:38and cruise
32:39down the
32:40road and
32:41have a
32:42nice time
32:43but that
32:44was the
32:45next thing
32:46what do
32:47we do
32:48with the
32:49brand
32:50we raced
32:51our
32:52founders
32:53met at
32:54a racetrack
32:55and they
32:56decided to
32:57make an
32:58integral
32:59float
33:00carburetor
33:01around
33:021964
33:03they made
33:04it a
33:05concentric
33:06design
33:07that is
33:08the main
33:09jet
33:10was
33:11the
33:12main
33:13jet
33:14was
33:15the
33:16main
33:17jet
33:18and
33:19the
33:20main
33:21jet
33:22was
33:23the
33:24main
33:25jet
33:26and
33:27the
33:28main
33:29jet
33:30was
33:31the
33:32main
33:33jet
33:34and
33:35the
33:36main
33:37jet
33:38was
33:39the
33:40main
33:41jet
33:42was
33:43in
33:44the
33:45center
33:46of the
33:47float
33:48bowl
33:49which
33:50means
33:51in
33:52whichever
33:53direction
33:54the
33:55float
33:56bowl
33:57was
33:58in
33:59the
34:00center
34:01of the
34:02float
34:03bowl
34:04which
34:05means
34:06in
34:07whichever
34:08direction
34:09the
34:10float
34:11bowl
34:12was
34:13in
34:14the
34:15center
34:16of the
34:17float
34:18bowl
34:19which
34:20means
34:21in
34:22whichever
34:23direction
34:24the
34:25float
34:26bowl
34:27was
34:28in
34:29the
34:30center
34:31of the
34:32float
34:33bowl
34:34which
34:35means
34:36in
34:37whichever
34:38direction
34:39the
34:40float
34:41bowl
34:42was
34:43in
34:44the
34:45center
34:46of the
34:47float
34:48bowl
34:49which
34:50means
34:51in
34:52whichever
34:53direction
34:54the
34:55float
34:56bowl
34:57was
34:58in
34:59the
35:00center
35:01of the
35:02float
35:03bowl
35:04which
35:05means
35:06in
35:07whichever
35:08direction
35:09the
35:10float
35:11bowl
35:12was
35:13in
35:14the
35:15center
35:16of the
35:17float
35:18bowl
35:19which
35:20means
35:21in
35:23whichever
35:24direction
35:25the
35:26float
35:27bowl
35:28was
35:29in
35:30the
35:31center
35:32of the
35:33float
35:34bowl
35:35which
35:36means
35:37in
35:38whichever
35:39direction
35:40the
35:41float
35:42bowl
35:43was
35:44in
35:45the
35:46center
35:47of the
35:48float
35:49bowl
35:50which
35:51means
35:52in
35:53whichever
35:54direction
35:55the
35:56float
35:57bowl
35:58was
35:59in
36:00the
36:01center
36:02of the
36:03float
36:04bowl
36:05which
36:06means
36:07in
36:08whichever
36:09direction
36:10the
36:11float
36:12bowl
36:13was
36:14in
36:15the
36:16center
36:17of the
36:18float
36:19bowl
36:20which
36:21means
36:22in
36:23whichever
36:24direction
36:25the
36:26float
36:27bowl
36:28was
36:29in
36:30the
36:31center
36:32of the
36:33float
36:34bowl
36:35which
36:36means
36:37in
36:38whichever
36:39direction
36:40the
36:41float
36:42bowl
36:43was
36:44in
36:45the
36:46center
36:47of the
36:48float
36:49bowl
36:50which
36:51means
36:52in
36:53whichever
36:54direction
36:55the
36:56float
36:57bowl
36:58was
36:59in
37:00the
37:01center
37:02of the
37:03float
37:04bowl
37:05which
37:06means
37:07in
37:08whichever
37:09direction
37:10the
37:11float
37:12bowl
37:13was
37:14in
37:15the
37:16center
37:17of the
37:18float
37:19bowl
37:20which
37:21means
37:22in
37:23whichever
37:24direction
37:25the
37:26float
37:27bowl
37:28was
37:29in
37:30the
37:31center
37:32of the
37:33float
37:34bowl
37:35which
37:36means
37:37in
37:38whichever
37:39direction
37:40the
37:41float
37:42bowl
37:43was
37:44in
37:45the
37:46center
37:47of the
37:48float
37:49bowl
37:50which
37:51means
37:52in
37:53whichever
37:54direction
37:55the
37:56float
37:57bowl
37:58was
37:59in
38:00the
38:01center
38:02of the
38:03float
38:04bowl
38:05which
38:06means
38:07in
38:08whichever
38:09direction
38:10the
38:11float
38:12bowl
38:13was
38:14in
38:15the
38:16center
38:17of the
38:18float
38:19bowl
38:20which
38:21means
38:22in
38:23whichever
38:24direction
38:25the
38:26float
38:27bowl
38:28was
38:29in
38:30the
38:31center
38:32of the
38:33float
38:34bowl
38:35which
38:36means
38:37in
38:38whichever
38:39direction
38:40the
38:41float
38:42bowl
38:43was
38:44in
38:45the
38:46center
38:47of the
38:48float
38:49bowl
38:50which
38:51means
38:52in
38:53whichever
38:54direction
38:55the
38:56float
38:57bowl
38:58was
38:59in
39:00the
39:01center
39:02of the
39:03float
39:04bowl
39:05which
39:06means
39:07in
39:08whichever
39:09direction
39:10the
39:11float
39:12bowl
39:13was
39:14in
39:15the
39:16center
39:17of the
39:18float
39:19bowl
39:20which
39:21means
39:22in
39:23whichever
39:24direction
39:25the
39:26float
39:27bowl
39:28was
39:29in
39:30the
39:31center
39:32of the
39:33float
39:34bowl
39:35which
39:36means
39:37in
39:38whichever
39:39direction
39:40the
39:41float
39:42bowl
39:43was
39:44in
39:45the
39:46center
39:47of the
39:48float
39:49bowl
39:50which
39:51means
39:52in
39:53whichever
39:54direction
39:55the
39:56float
39:57bowl
39:58was
39:59in
40:00the
40:01center
40:02of the
40:03float
40:04bowl
40:05which
40:06means
40:07in
40:08whichever
40:09direction
40:10the
40:11float
40:12bowl
40:13was
40:14in
40:15the
40:16center
40:17of the
40:18float
40:19bowl
40:20which
40:21means
40:22in
40:23whichever
40:24direction
40:25the
40:26float
40:27bowl
40:28was
40:29in
40:30the
40:31center
40:32of the
40:33float
40:34bowl
40:35which
40:36means
40:37in
40:38whichever
40:39direction
40:40the
40:41float
40:42bowl
40:43was
40:44in
40:45the
40:46center
40:47of the
40:48float
40:49bowl
40:50which
40:51means
40:52in
40:53whichever
40:54direction
40:55the
40:56float
40:57bowl
40:58was
40:59in
41:00the
41:01center
41:02of the
41:03float
41:04bowl
41:05which
41:06means
41:07in
41:08whichever
41:09direction
41:10the
41:11float
41:12bowl
41:13was
41:14in
41:15the
41:16center
41:17of the
41:18float
41:19bowl
41:20which
41:21means
41:22in
41:23whichever
41:24direction
41:25the
41:26float
41:27bowl
41:28was
41:29in
41:30the
41:31center
41:32of the
41:33float
41:34bowl
41:35which
41:36means
41:37in
41:38whichever
41:39direction
41:40the
41:41float
41:42bowl
41:43was
41:44in
41:45the
41:46center
41:47of the
41:48float
41:49bowl
41:50which
41:51means
41:52in
41:53whichever
41:54direction
41:55the
41:56float
41:57bowl
41:58was
41:59in
42:00the
42:01center
42:02of the
42:03float
42:04bowl
42:05which
42:06means
42:07in
42:08whichever
42:09direction
42:10the
42:11float
42:12bowl
42:13was
42:14in
42:15the
42:16center
42:17of the
42:18float
42:19bowl
42:20which
42:21means
42:22in
42:23whichever
42:24direction
42:25the
42:26float
42:27bowl
42:28was
42:29in
42:30the
42:31center
42:32of the
42:33float
42:34bowl
42:35which
42:36means
42:37in
42:38whichever
42:39direction
42:40the
42:41float
42:42bowl
42:43was
42:44in
42:45the
42:46center
42:47of the
42:48float
42:49bowl
42:50which
42:51means
42:52in
42:53whichever
42:54direction
42:55the
42:56float
42:57bowl
42:58was
42:59in
43:00the
43:01center
43:02of the
43:03float
43:04bowl
43:05which
43:06means
43:07in
43:08whichever
43:09direction
43:10the
43:11float
43:12bowl
43:13was
43:14in
43:15the
43:16center
43:17of the
43:18float
43:19bowl
43:20which
43:21means
43:22in
43:23whichever
43:24direction
43:25the
43:26float
43:27bowl
43:28was
43:29in
43:30the
43:31center
43:32of the
43:33float
43:34bowl
43:35which
43:36means
43:37in
43:38whichever
43:39direction
43:40the
43:41float
43:42bowl
43:43was
43:44in
43:45the
43:46center
43:47of the
43:48float
43:49bowl
43:50which
43:51means
43:52in
43:53whichever
43:54direction
43:55the
43:56float
43:57bowl
43:58was
43:59in
44:00the
44:01center
44:02of the
44:03float
44:04bowl
44:05which
44:06means
44:07in
44:08whichever
44:09direction
44:10the
44:11float
44:12bowl
44:13was
44:14in
44:15the
44:16center
44:17of the
44:18float
44:19bowl
44:20which
44:21means
44:22in
44:23whichever
44:24direction
44:25the
44:26float
44:27bowl
44:28was
44:29in
44:30the
44:31center
44:32of the
44:33float
44:34bowl
44:35which
44:36means
44:37in
44:38whichever
44:39direction
44:40the
44:41float
44:42bowl
44:43was
44:44in
44:45the
44:46center
44:47of the
44:48float
44:49bowl
44:50which
44:51means
44:52in
44:53whichever
44:54direction
44:55the
44:56float
44:57bowl
44:58was
44:59in
45:00the
45:01center
45:02of the
45:03float
45:04bowl
45:05which
45:06means
45:07in
45:08whichever
45:09direction
45:10the
45:11float
45:12bowl
45:13was
45:14in
45:15the
45:16center
45:17of the
45:18float
45:19bowl
45:20which
45:21means
45:22in
45:23whichever
45:24direction
45:25the
45:26float
45:27bowl
45:28was
45:29in
45:30the
45:31center
45:32of the
45:33float
45:34bowl
45:35which
45:36means
45:37in
45:38whichever
45:39direction
45:40the
45:41float
45:42bowl
45:43was
45:44in
45:45the
45:46center
45:47of the
45:48float
45:49bowl
45:50which
45:51means
45:52in
45:53whichever
45:54direction
45:55the
45:56float
45:57bowl
45:58was
45:59in
46:00the
46:01center
46:02of the
46:03float
46:04bowl
46:05which
46:06means
46:07in
46:08whichever
46:09direction
46:10the
46:11float
46:12bowl
46:13was
46:14in
46:15the
46:16center
46:17of the
46:18float
46:19bowl
46:20which
46:21means
46:22in
46:23whichever
46:24direction
46:25the
46:26float
46:27bowl
46:28was
46:29in
46:30the
46:31center
46:32of the
46:33float
46:34bowl
46:35which
46:36means
46:37in
46:38whichever
46:39direction
46:40the
46:41float
46:42bowl
46:43was
46:44in
46:45the
46:46center
46:47of the
46:48float
46:49bowl
46:50which
46:51means
46:52in
46:53whichever
46:54direction
46:55the
46:56float
46:57bowl
46:59was
47:00in
47:01the
47:02center
47:03of the
47:04float
47:05bowl
47:06which
47:07means
47:08in
47:09whichever
47:10direction
47:11the
47:12float
47:13bowl
47:14was
47:15in
47:16the
47:17center
47:18of the
47:19float
47:20bowl
47:21which
47:22means
47:23in
47:24whichever
47:25direction
47:26the
47:27Bonneville, the year that Indian ran for some record there.
47:34And there was executives arrived on a row of Indians, which were all parked at the place
47:41where we were taking our outdoor cooked meals.
47:46And I walked over and looked at these bikes, and I felt myself attracted to one of them
47:51that was painted a kind of a curious aqua color.
48:01And I stood there and looked at it and I realized that was the color of my uncle's 1948 Buick.
48:10Now I don't believe that's an accident.
48:13I think that people look very carefully, very closely at colors, because colors, just like
48:21shapes, have powerful messages in them.
48:28This thing was talking to me.
48:31We used to pile into that pale green Buick convertible.
48:38My uncle had just driven all night to get there, and he's kind of, hand me those eyelid
48:43hooks, will you?
48:44But he drove us to the swimming hole, and that color has never left me.
48:51And here's Indian with that color.
48:53Yeah, no accidents at all.
48:55And that's what, you know, when you go into Harley's line and you see the range, you know,
48:59you have the candy colored, call it the jukebox, right?
49:02You have the jukebox design, where it's a lot of chrome and it's these candy colors
49:07and you think, okay, yeah, that's for me.
49:11But you have someone with a very different image and a very different experience, and
49:14they want flat black and wrinkle finish and long and low and, you know, it looks like
49:18a, I don't know, a SWAT vehicle, right?
49:24And there's just that, yeah, it's no accident.
49:27That's another point on the introduction of, the reintroduction of Indian to the American
49:32motorcycle market.
49:33You know, they took, they introduced the engine first, and we did a big exclusive story on
49:38the development of the engine and what it was made of and its design and all of that.
49:43And it was introduced in the spirit of Monroe, you know, Burt Monroe was using an Indian
49:49set in records back in the day, and they put the engine in the spirit of Monroe when they
49:53built a beautiful, you know, beautiful land speeder, custom land speeder.
49:59And it was a great way to kind of mark the relationship with racing.
50:03And they went back to the salt and ran with Lee Monroe and it was Burton Monroe's like
50:08great nephew.
50:09I forget the exact relationship, but they've always had an eye on history.
50:14And that was cool.
50:15But that wasn't, that also wasn't, we're going to go set an outright land speed record.
50:20We're going to honor the legacy.
50:22We are going to go fast.
50:23We're going to try the, try different things.
50:25But, you know, when you got into flat track, it was like, this is a serious race bike by
50:29a serious engineering company honoring the legacy of its, the brand.
50:37And it was, it was.
50:40Let's not forget that in 1911, Indians were one, two, three at the Isle of Man TT.
50:50And they had two speed transmissions that were shifted by dog ring.
50:58Remember when Kawasaki was telling us that one of their new transmissions, dog ring advanced
51:031911, Indian, pretty cool.
51:09All kinds of things have happened in history.
51:11And when you have a name like Indian, you just can't ignore all that.
51:19Well the FTR 750, it's hard to say it wasn't just about perfect in execution and you hand
51:32it over to a tuner, you know, Jared Meese's tuner and Jared Meese's kind of overall military
51:39grade operation, highly organized, thoughtful, tidy on time, thinking about fitness, everything
51:49is just, you know, that's, that's the person you want to be associated with and absolutely
51:55God had the tool to do what they've done.
51:59Total, total domination.
52:03And you could argue that after seven going on eight GNCs, the program has justified itself
52:15and they can, without regret, see the remaining FTRs go to the collectors who want them.
52:25Yeah, hurry up.
52:26There's only, you know, Gary was estimating maybe a hundred that they did.
52:33And they just kept getting orders.
52:37So they kept building bikes and presumably not very many people in that paddock said,
52:44I'm not getting an Indian because everybody else has one.
52:51Back in the TZ750 days, you could have a TZ750.
52:57All you had to do is give them some money.
53:00You didn't have to be a machinist or a dye sinker or any of those wonderful trades.
53:10Gas up, air up, race.
53:15Pretty awesome.
53:17Yeah, well, I mean, well, it lasted.
53:19Yep.
53:20And it makes, uh, makes for pretty good times.
53:23So maybe we'll, maybe we'll see that again with production based.
53:26I'm looking forward to seeing what it looks like.
53:30I think Indian will be back because if, if it was good to do it once, it could be decided
53:36the same way again, but under a different set of circumstances.
53:41So we'll have to see.
53:43Yes.
53:44Yes.
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