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00:00Pope Francis has wrapped up an arduous 12-day tour over the Asia-Pacific region.
00:05Over less than two weeks, the 87-year-old visited Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, East Timor,
00:11and Singapore. The pontiff, who in recent years has suffered bouts of ill health,
00:16appeared in good form throughout the trip, maintaining a packed schedule and headlining
00:20more than 40 different events. For more, let's speak to Massimo Fagioli, a church historian and
00:26professor of theology at Villanova University in Philadelphia. Hello to you and thank you
00:30for speaking to Paris Direct. Why at the age of 87 is Pope Francis going on his longest trip in
00:38terms of duration and distance? I think for two reasons. The first one is that the pivot to Asia
00:46is really a marker of Pope Francis' pontificate. Asia is the future of the globe and in some sense
00:52is the future of the Catholic Church. And the second reason is that many in these last couple
00:57of years said that Pope Francis' pontificate was almost over, there was going to be a resignation
01:05or a succession soon, and this trip demonstrates otherwise because Pope Francis has done an
01:10incredibly challenging trip from a physical point of view, very different countries, different
01:15contexts, and it has been, from his point of view, a success, I think. A success, but
01:22do you expect another trip like this from the pontiff? Well, as long and as challenging as
01:30this one, it is hard to say because it's hard to imagine another trip like this. Of course,
01:37this trip was tiptoeing around China, which is the biggest dream of Pope Francis and of
01:43all popes in these last 30 years. There's another trip coming up very soon in Belgium,
01:51and so this pontificate has slowed down on some issues, for some aspects, but not for his trips,
01:59which is where Pope Francis is at his best, usually. Yeah, you mentioned the focus of the
02:05church in Asia. Obviously, no formal ties between the Vatican and China, but should we expect,
02:13perhaps, a rapprochement? Well, there has been already, since 2018, because there's been this
02:20famous agreement that has to be renewed every two years, and the next time is in October,
02:26on the appointment of bishops, so there has been a rapprochement, but everything is very fragile.
02:33China is rising and is treating the Vatican as a foreign power, not just as a religion,
02:40and so that adds a level of complexity that other religions don't have when they deal with China.
02:47Another aspect of this, you alluded to it earlier, was about who might succeed Pope Francis. It's
02:53difficult to speculate until we know the person and their profile, but with the shifting demographics
03:00of the Catholic Church and more and more Catholics being found outside of Europe,
03:04what do you think the future of policy and terms of the Catholic Church will look like?
03:10So this church is certainly more global than it was 10 or 15, 20 years ago, so that is a factor
03:17that will be considered by the conclave, I think, but there's another factor, the effects of this
03:23pontificate, which has been quite tumultuous and for many cardinals way too turbulent,
03:31and that will influence the choice of the successor. That's why it's imaginable, it's
03:38possible that will be a European or even another Italian, which might sound counterintuitive when
03:47we look at the map of Catholicism today, but this pontificate has ruffled the feathers of many
03:54cardinals, and so they might look for a more stable, more predictable candidate.
04:00Yeah, and of course we're overlooking Africa in all of this. Africa has a very quickly growing
04:05Catholic population, and there are hopes that when Francis was appointed that we might even have
04:09the first African pope back then, so you don't see anything like that maybe in the foreseeable
04:14future, possibly. It's certainly possible. Africa presents some challenges, for example,
04:21for the message of Pope Francis on LGBT Catholics, gay Catholics. Most, if not all, prelates from
04:29Africa are quite on a different page on this issue, and electing a pope from Africa might
04:36send mixed messages on one of the most important challenges of the Catholic Church, being more
04:43inclusive with two gay Catholics, and that is something that will be considered, I think,
04:49by those who will make that choice. All right Massimo, thank you very much for your time,
04:53Massimo Fagioli speaking to us there. Thank you. Thank you very much.