2024 is seen as a pivotal year for European space policy. The European Space Agency is rolling out its new generation of launchers in order to hold its own against intensifying international competition.
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00:002024 is a pivotal year for European space policy, as the European Space Agency unveils
00:06its new generation of launchers amid intensifying international competition.
00:11For more on this developing space race, watch our interview with the Director General of
00:15the European Space Agency, Josef Aschbacher, in The Global Conversation.
00:20Josef Aschbacher, hello.
00:24The European rocket Vega has launched a new satellite.
00:27In July, Ariane 6 was a success.
00:31Would you say that the launcher crisis is over?
00:34Yes, we are on the best way to get out of the launcher crisis, but I really would like
00:39to say that ESA delivers.
00:42We have delivered Ariane 6 successfully into orbit, and this is not a small thing, because
00:49this rocket delivers satellites into orbit, which we need for daily life, and this is
00:54really fundamental.
00:55It's a really big step for Europe and a very big success for Europe.
01:00And just recently we launched Sentinel-2C with the last flight on Vega.
01:05Vega was the ESA rocket in the smaller segment, which we developed more than 10 years ago,
01:12and I think Europe can be very proud and very happy of this continuous series of successes
01:18which we deliver.
01:19Would you say that Europe is back to space?
01:22Europe is certainly back to space.
01:23We had a small crisis with launchers for about one year.
01:27We did not have our own launch capability, but with Ariane 6 back on the launch pad,
01:32with Vega now having launched successfully the Sentinel-2C, with Vega-C coming at the
01:37end of this year, certainly 2024 is the year when Europe gets out of the launcher crisis.
01:43But let me just put it a bit in context, because sometimes we hear negative news and Europe
01:48in the launcher crisis, and yes, this was all true, but also our big partner in the
01:52United States, NASA, for 10 years was relying on Russia to bring astronauts into the space
01:59station.
02:00Of course, now with SpaceX and the Crew Dragon this has changed, and now again the US has
02:06its own astronaut flight capability, but having a gap in a long series of launches and successes
02:14is, I'm not saying normal, but it's not a completely unusual thing.
02:17But yes, I'm so happy that we are getting out of this crisis now very strong.
02:21Can we say that Europe has regained some of its strategic autonomy?
02:25Yes, absolutely.
02:26I mean, Europe is actually strong in a number of domains, but I'm always comparing Europe
02:32with the United States, obviously, as the other major space nation.
02:35Of course, China is another one, but in China we do not have such figures, financial figures,
02:41and how much investments are made.
02:42But if you compare Europe with the United States, Europe invests about one-sixth in
02:49the public sector in space, so the US about six times as much.
02:54The figures are the global public investment in space today is about €108 billion in
03:01the year 2023, 64% of this is in the United States, and 11% in Europe, so you see there's
03:09a factor of six in between.
03:11Despite the fact that we are investing much less in space compared to the United States,
03:18compared to NASA and the Space Force, Europe is actually really good.
03:23We have some of the programs which are among the best in the world, I think Copernicus
03:26is one example where we really have built up over 25, more than 25 years, one of the
03:33world's or maybe the world's best space program in Earth observation.
03:38We are delivering 300 terabytes of data worldwide to every citizen around the globe for agriculture,
03:45for forestry, for fire brigade users, for civil protection, for ship routing, and many,
03:52many disciplines because these data are used across the board in the economy.
03:56So this is really a fantastic new program.
04:00The other leading program where Europe has again built up over more than 20 years a very
04:06strong program is Galileo.
04:07Galileo delivers today the most accurate navigation signal worldwide, more accurate than GPS by
04:14the way.
04:15Of course we have still work to do and there are other programs where we have to really
04:18catch up.
04:19On launchers we are just about to catch up.
04:20Of course you always compare with SpaceX and Falcon 9 and there still we have a long way
04:26to go.
04:27But again, ESA has made decisions that we are also going the similar way of buying a
04:32service from a private launcher company like the situation is in the United States where
04:37NASA is buying launchers or the Space Force is buying launchers from SpaceX.
04:42You said Europe is doing really good but we see some European companies or European
04:47bodies relying on some foreign companies like SpaceX.
04:52How do you react when you see Europeans turning to the US?
04:57Of course we need to build up our own strength and as I said we are investing much less in
05:04space compared to the United States.
05:06If I put another figure, if you divide the public investment in space per capita in the
05:12United States this figure is about 220 Euros per person.
05:18In Europe it is about 20.
05:20So there is a factor of 10 in between simply because the European population is larger
05:24including the member states of ESA.
05:27So again we really need to catch up because space is so strategic and is so important
05:31for the future for all levels of society.
05:34I mentioned some of them from agriculture to forestry and civil protection but also
05:38security becomes more and more an issue.
05:41Let me take security as a case.
05:44In the United States about 65% of the public investment is used for defence and security.
05:53In Europe it is about 12%.
05:55So again a much lower portion on security and defence within a much lower budget.
06:02So again you see there that in security and defence there is really no comparison between
06:07the investments of the US and Europe.
06:09And again this is something which I would expect but these are political decisions.
06:13It is not for me to decide on these investments but these are political decisions.
06:17But it is expected that the investments here are increasing.
06:20Because of the launcher crisis has Europe fallen behind its space programme and can
06:25it catch up?
06:26We can catch up.
06:27I mentioned Copernicus, Galileo as examples where Europe had about 20 years delay in initiating
06:34these programmes.
06:35But today they are world best programmes.
06:37So yes we have been catching up and we can do that.
06:40Of course we need to catch up in the launcher sector.
06:42We need to reinvest massively to catch up and make sure that we can deliver our satellites
06:47into space.
06:49Also in broadband internet for example Starlink of course is dominating today the broadband
06:54internet constellations.
06:56And Europe is on the verge of building up its own activity with Iris Square which is
07:01just about to be initiated.
07:03But still we have to catch up there because there is such a big dominance on the world
07:07market.
07:08So this only goes with major investments that are needed.
07:13Where does Europe stand in this international competition?
07:17Well Europe is excellent but small.
07:22Excellent in terms of intellectual capability, technological capability.
07:26Our industry is one of the world's most competitive industry worldwide.
07:31And the investments which we do are really well invested.
07:34And this is I would also like to say thanks to the system that the European Space Agency
07:39has built up over decades to build up an industry which is used to compete against each other
07:45and therefore be really on the edge and very sharp in terms of quality and technology they
07:50deliver.
07:51They are really among the best in the world.
07:52But this is the big danger which I see.
07:55We are getting too small compared to the acceleration that takes place worldwide.
08:00For example the global space economy today is about 470 billion euros including also
08:06the services segment.
08:08It is growing by about 15 percent.
08:11But most of this growth unfortunately is happening in the US and in China.
08:16And Europe is stagnant.
08:18Meaning that if Europe is stagnant we are falling behind.
08:20And this we cannot risk because space is just too important as a sector, as an element for
08:26daily life today already but much more in the future.
08:30What is missing?
08:31Do we need more investment by member states or by private companies?
08:36We need both.
08:37We need certain investments by the public sector.
08:40If I mention the public investments in the United States, only because of the big investments
08:47by NASA, by the Space Force, companies like SpaceX can develop into what they are today.
08:54They are enormously successful.
08:56But it is also fair to say that without NASA they would be by no means in the stage we
09:01are today.
09:02Both technically, because technically NASA has provided engineers in building up the
09:07Falcon rocket and engine, has really helped quite a lot the commercial teams of SpaceX.
09:15But also financially in order to make it possible because NASA was playing the role of anchor
09:19customer and therefore buying rocket launches from SpaceX but also others.
09:26And there of course the dimensions are much bigger.
09:28So what does Europe need to do to succeed?
09:31Europe has the excellence.
09:33Europe has the capabilities.
09:34Europe has the talents.
09:35I want them to keep all our talents in Europe.
09:38I would not like them to go all the way to Silicon Valley or other places.
09:41Of course some of them will be happily doing that.
09:44But I would like to create programs that keep European talents in Europe and this can only
09:49be done by really investing and making sure that we have the right boundary conditions
09:53but also the right projects and dreams to keep Europeans here and really help them flourishing
10:00and being successful.
10:02European space policy has been designed during peacetime.
10:05Is it fit for wartime?
10:08European space technology is by nature dual use.
10:12Many of the technologies we are developing are used for civilian as well as defence purposes.
10:18Let me take a very simple example, metrology.
10:21We are developing geostationary and polar orbiting satellites in many decades for Europe
10:27since the 70s.
10:29And the weather satellite, there is only one geostationary satellite called Meteosat now
10:33in its third generation and it is used to collect data for weather forecasts.
10:39But there is only one.
10:40There is not one for the military and one for civilian.
10:42It is one satellite and then of course the data streams go for civilian weather forecast
10:47for the farmers to see when they should harvest their crop or for the defence community for
10:53defence purposes.
10:54So yes, technology in space is quite naturally dual use.
10:59Launchers is another example.
11:01But also ESA is building up together and for the European Union the Galileo system.
11:08The Galileo system has one signal called the PRS signal which actually is used for and
11:13built for the defence community.
11:15So yes, we are doing this since many years.
11:17But you are absolutely right.
11:19The real use or the dedicated use of space for defence in Europe is very small compared
11:26to the United States, compared to China, compared to India, compared to Russia or compared to
11:32Japan or other countries.
11:33So yes, there is a strange situation that Europe in defence proper is investing much
11:39less than other countries.
11:41How can we ensure Europe's space security?
11:44Well, Europe is working on many domains in security.
11:47We have all the tools and the capabilities available.
11:50It's really a political decision whether Europe wants to engage stronger or further.
11:55These are decisions to be made by politicians.
11:57I'm not a politician.
11:58I'm the head of the European Space Agency and therefore the head of an implementing
12:03agency.
12:04But it is really our member states within the ESA context with 22 member states or the
12:09European Union for whom we work on space programmes to make this decision.
12:13So yes, ESA is ready and capable of working more in security.
12:17But this decision has to be made by member states and politicians.
12:20Can you assure that a European will walk on the moon by the end of the decade?
12:25By the end of this decade, I cannot ensure because here we have to work with NASA.
12:32NASA is of course our partner with whom we work on the Artemis programme.
12:36We work very successfully.
12:38What I can say is that what is already assured is that we have three European astronauts,
12:45ESA astronauts who will be flying on the Artemis programme.
12:49But so far, these flights are to the Gateway, which is the station, the orbital station
12:55around the moon, but not yet on the moon's surface.
12:58On the moon's surface, this needs new agreements and new investments and this has yet to be
13:03done.
13:04So this is not yet guaranteed.
13:06I think this will be a challenge to have it by the end of this decade because it will
13:11take some time to have non-US citizens on the moon's surface.
13:17And this certainly is something that we have as an ambition, very clearly, but there's
13:21no data or no agreement made yet.
13:23Why is it important to have a European in a NASA mission?
13:28There's one very simple reason.
13:30First of all, we have worked with NASA for many decades very successfully, but there's
13:34also the issue of cost.
13:36Of course, a mission to the moon is a major investment.
13:39I think medium to long term, Europe should build up its own capability to be more autonomous
13:45and have its own capability of bringing European astronauts with its own means to the moon.
13:51But as a first step, we are working, of course, very closely hand in hand with NASA, who is
13:56a very trusted and a very reliable partner.
13:59Actually, to the extent that NASA also relies on ESA for some very critical components to
14:04bring astronauts to the moon and to the moon's surface, the Orion capsule, which is the capsule
14:11that brings astronauts to the moon and back, is powered by the European Service Module.
14:16And the European Service Module is provided by ESA, and we have already delivered some
14:21of them for the first flight, which was without astronauts, but also for the flights with
14:26astronauts, they could not fly to the moon without ESA, without ESA contribution.
14:31Many voices in the European Union suggest a greater integration of the European market
14:36to foster European space policy.
14:40Is it a step in the right direction?
14:42Yeah, I had very good discussions also with Letta when he was preparing his report, but
14:47also with the team of Mario Draghi, whose report is also coming out now.
14:53And yes, space has many dimensions.
14:58Space has a technical dimension, a scientific dimension, a climate dimension, but also an
15:03industrial dimension and a market dimension.
15:05And it is clear that for Europe to compete and to be competitive on the world market,
15:10that means vis-a-vis other partners worldwide, yes, we have to make sure that we are putting
15:16our assets together in the best possible way.
15:19And what we have to do certainly is to reinforce the cooperation between the European Union
15:26through the European Commission and of course the EU institutions and the European Space
15:31Agency.
15:32ESA has launched this cargo return service, is the program on track?
15:37The program is very much on track, and what I really liked about this program is first
15:41of all the decision by member states that we change gear on how we procure space hardware
15:47in the future.
15:49It is a complete paradigm shift.
15:50Instead of developing a satellite from the very beginning to the very end with all little
15:54details which you might want to specify, we decided, or member states decided, that we
16:00buy a service.
16:01That means we buy a service of a cargo, say 4,000 kilos, that is being transported from
16:07the Earth's surface to the space station, is docking on the space station, is unloaded,
16:13and then again some two tons of cargo are re-entering into the Earth's atmosphere and
16:19landing safely on the Earth's surface.
16:21This is a capability which we don't have today, this re-entry capability.
16:26So this paradigm shift is quite fundamental, and it's very important to speed up our innovation,
16:31to give industry more freedom to develop its spacecraft the way how they want to do it,
16:36or the cargo return vehicle, and give them freedom to choose their partners as they wish
16:41to choose them.
16:43But the other element that is quite important is we have been very fast in making the decision
16:48and implementing this contract.
16:50Between the decision which was made by ministers in November 2023 and the kick-off of the contract,
16:56meaning all the steps in between, including decisions by member states, industry writing
17:00its proposal, ESA evaluating it, negotiating, and us, me signing the contract, that was
17:06less than six months.
17:07And that is also quite fast in order to really speed up this chain.
17:10So this paradigm shift of ESA becoming an anchor customer, and on the other side being
17:16faster and more agile as an agency, is something that I'm really implementing very strongly
17:21with the European Space Agency, and you will see much more in the future of this kind.
17:25Isn't it dangerous to rely on private companies?
17:28But there is a risk, absolutely, you're absolutely right.
17:32There's a risk.
17:33I mean, what happens if the company is not succeeding?
17:35What happens if the company is bought up or is leaving Europe?
17:39I mean, these are, of course, risks that we know very well, but we have a lot of measures
17:44built in to cater for these risks, to make sure that our investment is well-preserved
17:49and we keep certainly the quality and the excellence within the interests of European
17:54taxpayers.
17:55You've launched a Charter Zero Debris.
17:59Are you able to convince your partners?
18:01We have already convinced them.
18:02We have already about more than half our member states who have signed up to it.
18:07We have several rounds of signatures.
18:09We have about 40, more than 40 companies who have signed up to the Charter worldwide, most
18:15of them in Europe, of course, but including some companies in the U.S., Amazon as one
18:20example has signed up.
18:21Amazon is a strong space program, as you know, with Kuiper as a new constellation being installed
18:29and developed right now.
18:31So yes, this is a very attractive charter.
18:35I think it just makes good common sense.
18:37I mean, we are having today about 10,000 satellites in orbit and they are all creating debris.
18:43We have about 30,000, actually closer to 40,000 debris pieces that are larger than 10 centimeters.
18:53They are very dangerous because they could hit another spacecraft and destroy it or make
18:57it not working properly.
18:59So yes, there's huge amounts of debris.
19:01It keeps increasing every day.
19:04And the request from my side is that ones who sign up to the Charter should just promise
19:10that at the end of the life of a satellite, they don't leave it in space, but they bring
19:13it out of space.
19:14And that's a very simple principle of the Charter, that you, just like going to a national
19:20park, you take your food, your lunch box with you, you eat your lunch, but you don't leave
19:27waste behind.
19:28You take the waste back out, so you keep the national park clean.
19:32And that's what we want to do in space, that once you have a satellite launched, of course
19:36it operates say for five, for 10, for 15 years, but at the end of its life, the signatories
19:41promise to bring it out of orbit and burn it up in the atmosphere in order to keep using
19:47the orbits because we need them for daily life, because the satellites there are serving
19:51every citizen every single day.
19:53Josef Aschbacher, thank you for answering our questions.
19:57Great pleasure.