Join executive editor Holly Baxter and a panel of experts as they dissect the campaign trail so far, break down the latest polling trends, and offer insights into how pivotal moments in the race for the White House could unfold.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00:00Good evening everyone and welcome to this latest virtual event for the
00:00:04Independent. Thank you for joining us in a week of big royal news so I'm sure
00:00:10many of you will have seen the recent Kate video and this event really is just
00:00:15to look at the kind of shrinking inner circle of the royal family and what
00:00:20what they're going to do to try and keep relevant or if they can keep relevant so
00:00:24we've got a fantastic panel together. So my name is Victoria Harper, I'm Assistant
00:00:29Editor at the Independent and I'm joined by these brilliant experts here. So the
00:00:34first on our guest is Anna Pasternak, she's an international best-selling
00:00:39author, someone I work with a lot, writes for the Independent a lot and she's a
00:00:44frequent commentator on TV, radio and podcasts as well. We have 20th century
00:00:50historian, Sunday Times best-selling author and frequent royal commentator
00:00:55Tessa Dunlop who's been rushed off her feet today and very kindly come and
00:01:01joined us in the studio. And our third panellist is Jonathan Spangler, a royal
00:01:06historian academic who specialises in the roles of second sons and more junior
00:01:12members of the royal family which is very pertinent to the conversation we're
00:01:17going to be having. So in the next hour we're going to analyse what is happening
00:01:21currently in the royal family and also what the next chapter will look like for
00:01:27them. If you want to ask a question simply use the Q&A function in the
00:01:32bottom bar of your Zoom link and please do think about donating to the
00:01:36Independent using the link in the chat box. This means that we can do great
00:01:41events like this, we can still kind of finance our kind of independent thinking
00:01:46journalism which is really important in these times I think. So some of you have
00:01:50already submitted some fantastic questions that the panellists have
00:01:53already been reviewing so I think we'll kind of start from there. Obviously
00:01:58two years ago the Queen died so there was a lot of grief
00:02:04around that time but people's minds very quickly went to like what's now, you know
00:02:08she was the institution a lot of people said, a lot of people
00:02:12did predict there was going to be huge changes. So I'm just quite interested in
00:02:16all of you, what were you thinking at that time? Did your
00:02:21thoughts immediately go, oh this is going to be a big change, this could be the
00:02:25beginning of the end? So do you want to start with that Tessa, what were
00:02:29your thoughts two years ago? Well I think what was fascinating about it was the
00:02:36choreography was exquisite and had been pre-planned for decades and when you
00:02:43have a change of sovereign, i.e. when one monarch dies and another one therefore
00:02:49is crowned and becomes a king or queen, the focus weirdly is less on the
00:02:55individual and more on the institution. So a huge amount of the paraphernalia,
00:03:03the rigmarole, the sceptre, the orb, the pomp, the ceremony was about
00:03:11maintaining continuity from one sovereign to another, like nothing to see
00:03:16here, move along now, yes wasn't the Queen wonderful but here we have it, now
00:03:20another king. So the institution is more important than her. Indeed, the institution is the
00:03:25constant and the Queen was an astonishing individual who occupied
00:03:31that role for an unprecedented seven plus decades. So you were quite
00:03:36confident that nothing to see here, this will continue. And how exceptionally well it was done, how much
00:03:42money and time we invested in making sure the monarchy continued. And Jonathan, is that something you would agree with?
00:03:49Yes absolutely, it was really impressive, I mean down to every brass button, every
00:03:55turn of every soldier was perfectly choreographed, so it was quite amazing to
00:03:59watch. And as a historian of the institution of monarchy, I completely
00:04:06connected with what you were saying there, in that that's the whole point of
00:04:10monarchy really, is that it goes on and on and on and so there's always the
00:04:13tradition of saying, both in France or England or any monarchy, the king is dead
00:04:18long live the king. It's as if someone hasn't died and actually in France
00:04:22the monarch wasn't even allowed to stay in a place where somebody had just
00:04:27died. So the continuity was everything. But personally what I did think, I think
00:04:32two years ago, was how it was going to be, maybe how there was going to be
00:04:40changed, because that's what all the rumours were for the 20 years before
00:04:43that, was that Charles was going to change things and the coronation was
00:04:47going to be about multi-faith and it was going to be all green and all earth and
00:04:51all everything, and then it wasn't. And I think that was a bit of a
00:04:56surprise. Did it really surprise you though, given how old he is? We will
00:05:01come to that, about what Charles is, but just to that first question, two years ago,
00:05:07did you worry at all? Yes I did and I still do. I think that time will show
00:05:14that we will look back and we will see that that was the end of a certain mode
00:05:20of the monarchy and that that was the beginning of change. I do not think that
00:05:24the monarchies can sustain today or going forwards in the way that the Queen
00:05:28ruled. Personally I felt, oh this is the beginning of the end.
00:05:35Right, interesting. So we have had two years of Charles, like you were
00:05:39saying, we had great thoughts about how he might do things differently.
00:05:44Obviously he's had a quite a big personal circumstance with the
00:05:49cancer diagnosis, which could have knocked off or changed the way
00:05:54he's thought about things. But what do you think the general consensus is about
00:05:58the last two years, what has he brought? So Jonathan, you were
00:06:03just then saying it wasn't as different as we were hoping. Yes, I think to return
00:06:10to that a little bit, because I work on looking at monarchies comparatively, one
00:06:15of the things that the British monarchy has always lagged behind, I think, is
00:06:18change. So if you think about Sweden or Denmark or the Netherlands, they already
00:06:22did that change, slimming down, becoming a lot more modern. And so I guess people
00:06:26thought that that would happen now, and maybe it will. Two years is not a lot of
00:06:31time. But what has happened in the last two years, I think more of the same.
00:06:37I suspect because the illness happened about one year in, any plans that
00:06:42were in place were then put on hold. So I don't think we know what
00:06:47might have changed. Anna, what do you think? Well, personally, I had surprisingly low
00:06:53expectation for Charles. And for me, he has exceeded that. I think I was quite
00:06:58impressed by the way he took over, that he seems to be ruling in the way that
00:07:03his mother did. I thought it was quite seamless, the transition. Yes, of course,
00:07:09we had the pen outburst, and we'd never have seen the Queen have
00:07:12those little fits of temper, and there was more character coming through. But I
00:07:15thought, actually, he seemed to, and he seems to want to rule very much
00:07:19respecting his mother's way of being monarch. And that impressed me. I wasn't
00:07:25expecting that. And do you think that's because it was about the institution and not the monarch?
00:07:28Exactly. I think that he realised that what he could express and display as
00:07:33Prince of Wales wasn't going to be, wasn't feasible as monarch. And he very
00:07:37much tried to step in his mother's shoes in the way that he was running the
00:07:41country, but without trying to, in any way, overshadow her. So I think that
00:07:45he's, and actually, I think that his illness has almost helped in the
00:07:50way that we've warmed to him, and that he has become a beloved patriarch of the
00:07:55country in a way that I hadn't envisaged, and I'm really pleased to see.
00:07:58Interesting. Tessa, what was your verdict on the last two years?
00:08:02On a human level, of course, Charles hadn't really been allowed to get old, because his
00:08:07parents with these astonishing throwbacks to the Great Generation, the
00:08:11Blitz, they kept on going, they were nearly a hundred. And suddenly, without
00:08:16Philip and Elizabeth, you realise what? Charles is cracking on a bit, isn't he?
00:08:21Is he 75 now? Yeah. Can't keep up. And he has the cancer diagnosis, and
00:08:27suddenly he's looking not avuncular any longer, but like your grandfather.
00:08:32So he's moved into this different role, and I do think we cut people more slack
00:08:36as they move into that sort of national treasure category. Now, that's good for
00:08:41Charles as a caretaker king, because we give him space and we respect him. I'm
00:08:45not as sure it's good for monarchy, because actually, it desperately needs a
00:08:51bit of an overhaul. We had seven decades of kind of entrenched secrecy, excessive
00:08:58coffers, and really very little transparency, and that's
00:09:02understandable, because we have the same chief executive. And now
00:09:06under Charles, you can hardly really push the bloke to make root and branch
00:09:10change when he's undergoing chemo and just managing to keep afloat of a
00:09:15couple of public events. What is interesting, I suppose, in what we've
00:09:19seen this week is the video, which kind of almost puts us all on notice of
00:09:25possibly a new transparent type of monarchy coming down the track, but it's
00:09:31kind of a very intimate, previously never seen kind of show of, you know,
00:09:38children offstage. So, you know, let's just go to that video quickly, and then I
00:09:45promise you we will get to some of the readers' questions. But what, you know,
00:09:51just top lines, what were your instant kind of thoughts? Is it really like, this
00:09:55is a new monarchy that is behind Charles, which we're going to
00:10:00expect, is it that? I think Kate has learned a huge amount since mothering
00:10:08Sunday photogate Barclay. I think she's also learned a huge amount about
00:10:13herself and what she will tolerate and what she won't.
00:10:16Canasa has a way of doing that, especially if it hits you early in life,
00:10:19which it has her, relatively early. And I think she realises she can actually
00:10:25control this narrative more effectively, and she can employ people who are
00:10:30talented at doing that. I think she's taken a leaf out of Meghan Markle's
00:10:34copybook, dare I say. If anybody ever listened to some of Meghan's
00:10:38Spotify podcasts, they're very, very scripted, quite cleverly so. Everyone here
00:10:44always just as rude about Meghan, but actually if you listen, they were quite
00:10:47cleverly crafted, and I thought Kate did that well. Sometimes I've seen her on
00:10:51Instagram looking a bit gauche, and it's not really her thing, she's not a natural
00:10:54presenter, why should she be? But this was discreetly voiced, it said exactly what
00:10:59she wanted it to say, she gave as much as she was prepared to give, and it
00:11:03did two things for her. One, it was her way of thanking us for stepping back after
00:11:08the search for Kate, catastrophe, media, under the wire, trolling, etc. And it also
00:11:14was a holder, because she didn't actually tell us when she's coming back, and
00:11:19this was a way of, you know, here's a little something from us, back off.
00:11:24It's kind of faux intimacy. Absolutely, choreographed intimacy. Jonathan, I know you've only just recently seen this video. I know, I live in my ivory tower, so you know, I get up quite often.
00:11:36I know it was very glossy, you were quite impressed by the glossiness, or kind of shocked by the glossiness?
00:11:42Well, I don't think either impressed or shocked. I think it seemed like it was maybe tailored
00:11:47towards a younger California audience, maybe appealing more to an American side,
00:11:52but I think younger audiences often tend to go more for emotional responses,
00:11:58and I think that's who they're pitching for. And they might be asking a different thing from their monarchy, so that's where the narrative might shift as an institution, they might have to change with those younger people.
00:12:12Yeah, because we have seen, sorry, that a lot of the new popularity for the
00:12:19monarchy is in people in their 20s. That sort of cynical generation is now in the middle, I guess.
00:12:25Yeah, right, so a resurgence.
00:12:27Well, I'm not that young, but I think I possibly am part of the cynical generation. So my two thoughts on watching the video were, I wonder what the late queen would have thought of it, and I don't think that it would necessarily have ticked her boxes.
00:12:39And my other thought was, I feel it was absolutely, it's illustrative of the media bias that if Harry and Meghan had released that video, there would have been utter opprobrium, there would have been mockery, uproar, they would have been slated as they were for the Riviera Orchard little clips.
00:12:57And this was in a very similar mode, and we are all absolutely, you know, the press today has been full of how touching, how modern, how moving.
00:13:05So what struck me is, again, it's illustrative of a media bias that is going on about the monarchy at the moment.
00:13:13But that's our response to it. Her delivery is separate from the way in which the media responds.
00:13:19Well, she pretty much guarantees what the media coverage is going to be of that. She put that out wholly confident that everyone is going to go, oh, yeah, how gorgeous.
00:13:30I mean, she has had cancer.
00:13:32No, I think the message of to thank her fans and, you know, to be in nature is wonderful. However, I'm just not sure we needed that much. And for me, it was a little over the top.
00:13:44It's a different style, definitely. So, I mean, just going back to this, so she seems to be signalling, well, no great detail about her return.
00:13:52There were kind of hints that it will be a gentle, gentle kind of entree into kind of a royal life.
00:13:59So Fiona Fisher, our reader, wants to know kind of which members of the wider royal family do you think could be brought in to kind of fill these gaps where the kind of principal members have kind of entered the stage left?
00:14:16Well, I think we've already seen the astonishing rise of the formerly fairly mediocre Edward, who is now the Duke of Edinburgh and his wife, the Duchess.
00:14:27His Duchess is impressive.
00:14:29Yeah, they're an impressive pair. I think it's worth bearing in mind that they had a really rocky start. She was turned over by the fake Sheikh.
00:14:38He had Ardent, the disastrous production company, and Royal Knockabout that everyone damned. In fact, you could argue it was a head of the cart.
00:14:45I was going to say, that was your behind the scenes look at, but we're getting there.
00:14:4918 million viewers. People would die for that kind of thing. But what they tried to do was have independent media careers and it didn't work.
00:15:01And the Queen then invited them in to be working royals and he had bagshot, is it Hall or Park, one or the other, and he got a stipend.
00:15:09And they went there, just discreetly went along being Earl and Countess of Wessex and did it very well and supported the firm.
00:15:17And now have come into their own because the firm has a few holes in it.
00:15:21But I think the point I'm trying to make is they did it the other way around from Harry and Meghan and because of their failure to carry it off, I think that was one of the reasons why the Sussexes got an absolute no when they said we want to do a half in, half out.
00:15:35And the door was firmly shut on that idea because it had already been trialled by the Wessexes and it wasn't seen to work.
00:15:42And it didn't work. And Sophie was one of the Queen's favourites.
00:15:46In the end.
00:15:48Well of course they didn't get divorced.
00:15:50And the Queen comes from a generation where marriage is for life, you shut up and put up. Tolerance is the watchword of her and Philip's relationship.
00:15:58And I think that she respected Sophie for the way in which she adapted to a challenging institution.
00:16:05And it was difficult. What do you think, Jonathan, who do you think could fill the gaps?
00:16:10Well I think there's a lot of kind of fantasy questions. We were talking earlier before we started that I would actually like to extend broader and bring in some of these Kents or Gloucesters that we don't really know much about and have had private lives for all of their lives.
00:16:24But I think more seriously, people can really look once more at the York girls and see what they may or may not be able to do.
00:16:33But what we do know already, I think, is that Princess Anne is always the stalwart and Zara seems to have taken on those characteristics.
00:16:42And popular, very popular.
00:16:44If Charles asked me, I would say give her a title, make her Countess of something or Duchess of something and put her to work.
00:16:54Because Princess Anne decided that they wouldn't have a title, didn't she, quite deliberately.
00:16:59I think that was more from Mark Phillips, her first husband, who rejected the Eldon. He said, I don't want that.
00:17:06We know that one of the reasons for the breakdown of their marriage was that he just didn't go a bundle on being a sort of hanger-on to a full-time royal, which Anne was.
00:17:15And therefore the children are without titles. Would it be odd to suddenly accrue them in middle age?
00:17:21I don't think so, no.
00:17:22Do they need them?
00:17:23Do they need them? I think it would be quite cool if they came into the world and they worked as royals without the title.
00:17:28Can you work as a royal without titles?
00:17:31Yes, everyone knows who they are. Everyone knows that Zara is Princess Anne's daughter.
00:17:35I completely agree with Jonathan. I would like to see more of Princess Beatrice and Eugenie.
00:17:40I think that they have handled their parents' fallout.
00:17:44I think they have shown immense diplomacy.
00:17:48I think they're very popular, nice girls.
00:17:51I think they'd be very good with greater profile on the charitable circuit.
00:17:56They've trod a really delicate line in that they've never done anything to offend the institution.
00:18:04They're very loyal to their uncle, the king, and yet they've lived with a difficult situation with their parents,
00:18:10with both Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson at various times being exiled.
00:18:15And Eugenie is very close to Harry, so she is our one chance of bringing Harry back into the fold.
00:18:21I think those girls have shown remarkable sensitivity and skill, and I think they're a credit to the monarchy.
00:18:26In a way, have they successfully done the half-in, half-out?
00:18:30Are they a good example of how you can be both?
00:18:35I think they have, because they haven't created any scandal.
00:18:39I've seen some of those princesses at charity events, and they are extremely popular.
00:18:45They do bring that touch of royal magic, of frisson.
00:18:48I think they understand the institution. They understand what's happened to their parents.
00:18:54They are very skilled at negotiating the difficulties of surviving within the House of Windsor.
00:19:01Would either of these two young sets want to become full-time working royals, and all that comes with it?
00:19:10Probably not.
00:19:13I suppose this is the question, ultimately. Do you have to be a full-time working royal?
00:19:19For this institution to exist, maybe it needs to loosen the reins.
00:19:23I think they seem very loyal to the king, and very loyal to the crown, actually.
00:19:28I think you see them at Buckingham Palace garden parties, and they always seem really happy to be there.
00:19:33Is that because they have their other life?
00:19:35Well, yes.
00:19:37But they haven't been given the choice to be full-time working royals, have they?
00:19:41No.
00:19:42The question is, who would you bring in? I would bring them in, definitely.
00:19:45It's interesting, because I would probably look chuffed to be at Buckingham Palace and to wear a pretty frock,
00:19:50and to hang out with lots of famous people and impressive people.
00:19:53But I've been doing this thing on war commemoration, and I'm really struck that every memorial has been opened
00:19:59by the Countess of Wessex and Princess Anne.
00:20:01Those are the two names, or the Duke of Kent, that I see more than any other.
00:20:05That's just one small role that the monarchy occupies, honouring our fallen.
00:20:11But it's a lot of going out to Province X, in the rain, cutting a ribbon, saying the right thing, eating cake.
00:20:19Pretending that you're really happy to say that.
00:20:21I suppose the big question, I say, Kath Gill is asking the big question, our reader,
00:20:28that a lot of us want to know, is, you know, Harry is going to be 40 in a few weeks.
00:20:34He seems to be making these, you know, a few kind of, like, trying to come back, in a way.
00:20:40I mean, is there any way that they could be brought in from the cold?
00:20:44Or would it cause more problems than it solves?
00:20:47I mean, what do we think? I mean, she seems to change by the day, if I'm honest.
00:20:52But Tessa, what do you think? Do you think Harry and Meghan ever will have a role?
00:20:58Or even just Harry?
00:21:01I would have said even a year ago that maybe.
00:21:05I've got to say that I was disappointed and a bit surprised that when he came for the 10th anniversary ceremony of Invictus,
00:21:15that for whatever reason, the King did not manage to carve out time to meet his son.
00:21:23I think that the mood music around the two different camps, which have increasingly been entrenched,
00:21:30one is Montecito and the Sussexes, and the other is William, very much alongside his father,
00:21:36in a way that they never were that close, they now are.
00:21:39And I think that this kind of all or nothing approach, which was very much fostered by the Queen,
00:21:46makes it difficult to see how Harry can return in any way back to the fold.
00:21:53And because all of them are pretty male, proud and entitled, we're talking about three men here with considerable silver spoons.
00:22:01I can't see in the near future, certainly, any of them sort of falling on their sword or finding the emotional space to go, hey.
00:22:10If you had to pick one, though, who do you think would?
00:22:14The least likely is William.
00:22:16The most angry and the least likely. I don't think he ever will.
00:22:20I would have wanted it to have come from Charles. He has the broader shoulders. He's the father.
00:22:24And I think as a defender of the faith, father of the family, I think in the end, if Harry misses home,
00:22:32it'll be how much Harry misses home in the long run, if he does.
00:22:35Jonathan, you're an expert on second sons.
00:22:38Come on, Jonathan.
00:22:39Where are we standing on the Harry question for second son?
00:22:43Always a difficult place throughout history.
00:22:47This is no different.
00:22:48Yeah, we live in the 21st century, so the rules are different than what I normally study.
00:22:52So in the 16th or 15th century, if you disliked what your elder brother did, you pulled your sword and you fought with him.
00:22:58Right.
00:22:59Or you led a rebellion.
00:23:00Push him in a dog bowl.
00:23:02France or Germany or all these countries were often riven with civil wars and younger brothers were almost always getting into trouble.
00:23:09And then the shift suddenly came in the 18th century where they all realized we all get along better if the second son just stays quiet and does what he's told.
00:23:18So from that perspective, Harry would be better to simply go, right, you were right.
00:23:24I need to be quiet.
00:23:26Yes.
00:23:27Which is not going to happen.
00:23:28Doesn't feel like that's his personality.
00:23:30No, and it's not the way we live.
00:23:31Harry's never been knowingly quiet, I don't think, in his whole life, has he?
00:23:35Right.
00:23:36We forget sometimes that there was that whole teenage Harry.
00:23:39We sort of have forgotten about that, remember?
00:23:41Yes.
00:23:42Where there was a fresh scandal every six months of like, oh, he's wearing that.
00:23:46Oh.
00:23:47Yeah.
00:23:48But I guess the question about whether he can come back into the fold or not, we really have to talk about Meghan as well, the Duchess of Sussex.
00:23:56Because she will demand a very large role.
00:24:00And whether they're willing to give that to her or not, I think that might be the issue.
00:24:05That could be interesting.
00:24:06I mean, it could be a missed opportunity.
00:24:08Well, I think it's a huge missed opportunity.
00:24:10I think the whole, I'm sure there were faults on both sides, but I think the missed opportunity to have Harry and Meghan having some Commonwealth role is immense.
00:24:19I think that the window for Harry to come back is only through Charles's reign.
00:24:25It will never happen without him.
00:24:27I agree.
00:24:28And it needs to happen.
00:24:29And although I started out saying, you know, actually, Charles has exceeded my expectations, Monica, and I'm really thrilled about that.
00:24:35Where I do feel disappointed and completely agree with Tessa, I was horrified that he can't find her.
00:24:40I think the optics of the head of the Church of England being unwilling to embrace his son.
00:24:46I mean, the return of the prodigal son, you know, is very, very disappointing.
00:24:50But I suppose we don't always know what is going on.
00:24:53We don't always know what's going on.
00:24:55I'm sure we can be pretty sure that Meghan does not want to come back.
00:24:58But I think that it would, I think it would befit Charles and the optics hugely were he seen to open the arms.
00:25:07Remember, Harry is the boy that, as a nation, we all watched walk behind his mother's coffin.
00:25:12There is, whatever he's done, we have this kind of tender affection for him because we watched him grow up.
00:25:18We know what he's been through.
00:25:20And this is his homeland.
00:25:21And I think the feeling that he's kind of, yes, he chose Mexico to support his wife because, in my opinion, Harry and Meghan, they reached a point.
00:25:32They were too popular.
00:25:33And that was a threat to William and Kate.
00:25:35And they've had a very difficult time and they've absolutely created the architect of some of their own misfortune.
00:25:42But I think it's been made extremely difficult for them.
00:25:44And I think that Harry, I think that Charles, it behoves Charles to at least extend, open the palace doors a little further and give him the opportunity to return.
00:25:57I suppose it comes down to trust.
00:25:59And that's what always keeps coming back to that.
00:26:02If Charles did that, could he really trust that it wouldn't end up in a book?
00:26:06Well, can Harry trust anything that's being breached against him?
00:26:09Exactly. So it comes down to that.
00:26:11But I also think that going forward, the next generation is in place.
00:26:15If history has shown over and over and over again is as long as there is a need for a younger brother, then he has a role.
00:26:22But as soon as Louis and George and Charlotte are all in their teens and then in their 20s, then they don't really need Harry.
00:26:29I think that was one of the trigger points.
00:26:32I think Meghan looked around. She's used to a Hollywood hustle, meritocracy.
00:26:36You know, you go up the tree depending how effective and good you are.
00:26:39Yes. And it doesn't work like that.
00:26:41No, she's kind of a different tree.
00:26:43Not on the main branches.
00:26:45So it's a kind of a big culture clash.
00:26:47Why would you hang around?
00:26:48But I suppose what I'm interested in, and actually Johnny McCoy, our reader, asked this, and I'm very intrigued to know what you're all going to say.
00:26:56Will Prince Harry's children have a royal function and role?
00:27:00What if the children wanted to come back?
00:27:02I mean, just from a very human level, it feels very sad that they've never, that we know of, visited their grandfather or seen their British life.
00:27:16So what happens when they get older?
00:27:18Do they come, are they bored here?
00:27:21Do they see their cousins?
00:27:23You know, is it down to the next, next generation to create the healing?
00:27:28I mean, what's their role, Tessa?
00:27:30Well, as someone who has quite a splintered family, if you don't see your cousins for all your young life, you don't have that memory back.
00:27:41You don't have those common bonds of kingship, kinship rather, and therefore there is less of a pull to come back.
00:27:48Because you're not going back anywhere.
00:27:49You were never there in the first place.
00:27:51This institution, cousins and bloodlines, are so huge, actually.
00:27:56I mean, they talk about their cousins in all kinds of different territories, in a way that we don't really think about our cousins.
00:28:03Yes, but if you remember in that Harry and Meghan Netflix series, Harry talked about one of the things he missed was the crazy big lunches in the palace.
00:28:11And the royal family, in a way really that no other family could afford to, just logistically above anything else,
00:28:17they always got all those cousins and crazy aunts and dukes that we can't keep a hold of, et cetera, around one table.
00:28:25But of course, Harry's children have never been around that table.
00:28:28That is not their language.
00:28:31That is not what they associate with cousins in a way that Harry did.
00:28:34So this is a real rupture.
00:28:36I think it's going to be very interesting.
00:28:37Jonathan, just because your history of that second son and those generations, then what happens to the sons of the second sons?
00:28:43What's your prediction for Harry's children?
00:28:46Well, I think, touching on something we've said before, there is at least the York connection.
00:28:51And I think Harry is maintaining that.
00:28:53And they spent time in America, so it's possible that they know each other.
00:28:59I don't know.
00:29:00But yeah, historically, once you've got this second group of people, they move off to themselves.
00:29:06And the trick has always been to get an independent fund so that you can live off of.
00:29:13And then another branch is created.
00:29:15And so they have that.
00:29:18They have got titles, haven't they?
00:29:20Well, they're prince and princess.
00:29:23So I suppose, technically, he's the Earl of Dumbarton.
00:29:27But I don't think they go by that.
00:29:29Anna, what do you think?
00:29:31Because you're a great royal historian on Duchess Wallace.
00:29:36Actually, as you were saying that, I was thinking about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.
00:29:40And I was thinking, well, it would have been a similar situation had they had children.
00:29:43How would they have?
00:29:45And the chances of them mixing with Princess Elizabeth and Margaret, I think, would have been quite slim.
00:29:52Because I think there was a similar enmity coming from Buckingham Palace and the main royal family.
00:29:58And I can't see William and Kate opening their arms to Harry's children to meet their children as they grow up.
00:30:05That doesn't look possible.
00:30:07But I think you're right.
00:30:08I think, again, we come back to the lovely York girls.
00:30:11And I think they probably are having a relationship with their cousins.
00:30:14But, again, this is a sideshoot of a sideshoot.
00:30:17The trunk story is the video that we saw yesterday.
00:30:20Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:21William and Kate with three children.
00:30:24Yes, and that was made abundantly clear.
00:30:26We are the family.
00:30:27And one of the things that I really come across time and time again through all my historical royal research is that for the House of Windsor to survive, and they are ruthless survivors, that the way that they survive is that the spotlight has to be on the monarch and then the heir.
00:30:43And anyone from the sideline who takes too much oxygen or too much of the press or too much popularity, too glittering, is moved across.
00:30:52But I think all of the royal families of Europe do watch each other and see what they're doing.
00:30:56So two or three years ago, the Queen of Denmark suddenly said, my second son and his children, they were royal.
00:31:01They're not anymore.
00:31:02Right.
00:31:03And it just happened, I think, last week in Norway.
00:31:06They had a royal wedding and they redefined the royal family and said it's now just the king and his wife, the heir and his children.
00:31:13No siblings.
00:31:14Nobody else.
00:31:15But then we get to this, what we're saying, which is what Charles always wanted to have, this shrinking, smaller family, because we fund them, which we'll get to the funding question soon.
00:31:26But if you do that, there's also consequences in there because you aren't as visible as you can be.
00:31:31You can't be everywhere.
00:31:32You can't be, you know, it's a different kind of institution.
00:31:35And we want that balcony shot.
00:31:38We want the big members.
00:31:39We're interested.
00:31:40We're very invested.
00:31:42It's a very, very different royal family in Europe, I would argue, than there is in England.
00:31:48And what a lot of people still want in England.
00:31:51Yeah, it's interesting because I would argue that although Kate has been invisible most of the summer with a brief appearance at True Ping and one at Wimbledon, her cachet and her international standing and name and brand recognition has never been higher.
00:32:09So because we live in a super tech world now where it's not just mainstream media, it's also social media, you actually don't need to be doing that slightly tiresome groundwork that defined the Queen, defines Anne, defines the Duke of Kent, cutting the ribbon on a rainy day, unveiling the statue, etc.
00:32:28It's a very different version of monarchy.
00:32:31And do you need as many bodies?
00:32:34I don't think you do.
00:32:35Well, the Queen always used to say you have to be seen to be believed.
00:32:37Yes, and also Princess Anne, didn't she say in an interview at the time of her mother's death that actually with a slimmer monarchy, there aren't enough to go around to do the commemorative things that you're saying, to cut the ribbons.
00:32:50As you say, it's what kind of monarchy are we going to have?
00:32:52If we want it to continue in the style of the Queen, we do need members of the royal family to pitch up and show up.
00:32:59This sort of Instagram monarchy is a very different thing, all image and less substance.
00:33:04And it will come down to what's really painful.
00:33:07Or you could argue, never has England had a better advert on the other side of the Atlantic than yesterday.
00:33:13I mean, did anyone see that much sunshine in Norfolk?
00:33:16That is true.
00:33:19So I suppose, I mean, the Queen did go, you have to be seen to believe.
00:33:24She believed in your head of state, his vote deserving.
00:33:29Do you, you know, from what you know of the younger royalty, we've talked about Beatrice, do you think they've got that sense of service and serving?
00:33:38Or is it going to be on their terms?
00:33:40Because I would argue the video we saw yesterday was very much, this will be on our terms.
00:33:45It's a very different type of being.
00:33:48Do you think they've got that idea, the service idea?
00:33:52The duty.
00:33:53Yeah, they believe in the monarchy like the Queen did.
00:33:56And all that brings with it.
00:33:58I think that the idea of the dutiful monarch and the dutiful royal, that is a lightning rod for Anne.
00:34:08Sophie and Edward, I think, have shown that they've remained committed.
00:34:13They took a few middle aged knocks and they've pulled through.
00:34:17I think with William, one has to be careful.
00:34:21Big C comes knocking in your family, does give you, buys you a bit of time and space and sympathy.
00:34:27But I don't think we see quite the same level of duty from William.
00:34:32There's a bit more entitlement there.
00:34:35And there is more irascibility around the press and the intrusion and why you should have to put up with it, which is understandable.
00:34:45And quite similar to Harry, again, a bit of common ground there.
00:34:49I think that the younger generation, and I agree with you, particularly William and Kate, think they believe in the institution of monarchy.
00:34:57But I think they're more invested in their own image than the Queen was, who absolutely dedicated.
00:35:05Even yesterday's video, the message is very strong.
00:35:08It's family first.
00:35:10Now, for the Queen, it was always the institution first.
00:35:12I'm not saying that made her a better mother.
00:35:14It didn't.
00:35:15But that was her priority.
00:35:17And I think we can safely say that for the Waleses, for William and Kate, their priority is family first.
00:35:23You say they're going to do it on their terms.
00:35:25They've illustrated that to the world very loud and clear yesterday.
00:35:28So therefore, how can they have the same view of duty and service as the late Queen did?
00:35:35Is that something you'd agree with, John?
00:35:37Yes, I think so.
00:35:38And I think they're all a lot more individual rather than a collective.
00:35:42Right.
00:35:43Which is a big shift, and that's a society shift as well.
00:35:46Yeah, and even talking about Edward and Sophie, they are being held up as the model, and I agree with that.
00:35:51But they have made it very clear that their children are private individuals.
00:35:55So they are not prince or princess.
00:35:57They are lord and lady.
00:35:58And you see Charlotte at things, but you never see Viscount Severn.
00:36:01Yes, ever.
00:36:02Never.
00:36:03He clearly doesn't.
00:36:04Well, teenage boys are a lot like them, so let's be honest.
00:36:07But it is interesting.
00:36:09I would also argue, though, they're not comparable, the Queen and Kate and William in yesterday's video,
00:36:16because there's two, three generations between them.
00:36:20And today we are much more about...
00:36:23I mean, Kate helped lead the Heads Together campaign about mental health,
00:36:29about the self, about our truth, her truth, his truth.
00:36:32And that, in a way, speaks to a different generation who are looking for something different from their monarchy.
00:36:41They're not necessarily wanting, I suppose.
00:36:44But I think that this kind of new level of accessibility,
00:36:48my worry is that it erodes a mystique and a formality about the monarchy,
00:36:55which I think is important to its level of endurance.
00:36:59I'm not sure.
00:37:00As I say, I think we'll look back and we'll see that this was the beginning of something very different and possibly...
00:37:05I'm not saying that Britain will ever not have a monarchy,
00:37:08because I think it's very much in the fabric of the psyche of our society,
00:37:12and we like to have this sort of family, you know,
00:37:15that Charles is the patriarch, the Queen was our great matriarch,
00:37:18and there's a feeling of security that that brings to the subjects.
00:37:23But I worry that this revealing too much all the time
00:37:29and trying to appear as if they're just like every other family...
00:37:32I mean, it's patently ludicrous. Of course they're not.
00:37:35As you said, even the sunshine every day in Norfolk is rubbish.
00:37:40And that's just very different from the late Queen and how she operated.
00:37:46And I'm not sure that it will stand the test of time in the same way.
00:37:50And I've got a 21-year-old daughter.
00:37:52I do not see my daughter's generation nearly as interested and invested in the monarchy.
00:37:56No, but then Jonathan said there is a new interest among young people.
00:38:00Do you think, Jonathan?
00:38:01Well, I saw some figure.
00:38:03I'm quoting!
00:38:05Ultimately, this comes down to the...
00:38:07Absolutely, they're in a difficult position, aren't they?
00:38:09Because do they stick to what they've always known
00:38:12and then risk hopelessly looking out of fashion and not relevant?
00:38:17Or do they make themselves relevant and then thereby undermine the institution?
00:38:21That is the difficulty.
00:38:22They're navigating this now.
00:38:24What Catherine Fuller wants to know...
00:38:26Now, she is a monarchist. She absolutely believes in it.
00:38:28But she wants to know how hard the members of the Royal Family actually do work.
00:38:32I mean, they appear at charitable functions.
00:38:34We've discussed that.
00:38:35State dinners.
00:38:36But that doesn't take all day, she says.
00:38:38What is real work when it comes to the Royal Family?
00:38:42We fund them.
00:38:43What do they do?
00:38:45Well, it's very, very hard to know what they do
00:38:47because they're exempt from the Freedom of Information Act.
00:38:50So it's very hard to put in a request about how many court appearances they've made.
00:38:54We do use that slightly trying term, hard work.
00:38:57It's particularly bandied around in relation to Anne.
00:39:00I think once you're over 70 and you're working,
00:39:02it can be called relatively hard.
00:39:04So I think Anne now properly earns that title.
00:39:07I'm not sure the extent to which she did before.
00:39:10Yes, she could sometimes fit three events in a day.
00:39:12But I'm fitted in three events today.
00:39:14Am I particularly hard working?
00:39:16They are called working royals, though.
00:39:19So when they're called a working royal, what is it?
00:39:22Well, that is about going to the National Memorial Arboretum
00:39:27and unveiling a stone in honour of the Bevan boys
00:39:31who went down the mines in the Second World War
00:39:34and making them feel special, acknowledging them,
00:39:37talking to them, being brief, knowing what it's about,
00:39:41getting all the way to Staffordshire,
00:39:43and then going on and perhaps doing another event in the evening.
00:39:46And that's work. It's tiring.
00:39:48Being front-facing is tiring.
00:39:50I think it's one of the reasons why Kate's giving us these videos.
00:39:53Because when she's having chemotherapy,
00:39:55she doesn't want to be out there looking the part and sounding the part.
00:39:58So I don't want to detract from the idea of being on display
00:40:02and front-facing as not being work, because it is, and it's exhausting.
00:40:06But they don't do that much of it.
00:40:09They did maybe 200 events in a year, some of them,
00:40:13and I think cranked it up to three or thereabouts on a good year.
00:40:18Of course, that involves travel, etc.
00:40:20But what's interesting is those kind of figures
00:40:23you're not seeing attached to any of the younger generation
00:40:25with the exception of William.
00:40:27So where are the cavalry?
00:40:29We talk about, oh, maybe Beatrice will stand on the balcony
00:40:31and Eugenie will send Harry a Christmas card.
00:40:33But where are the troops on the ground?
00:40:35No, I think we're saying that they could do much more.
00:40:38I think that the work that the royals do,
00:40:40firstly, I think that they're a brilliant advertisement for Britain PLC.
00:40:44So the revenue they bring in from tourism is fantastic.
00:40:47I think it's 1.6 billion.
00:40:49It's hard to know exactly.
00:40:50It's hard to know exactly, but we do...
00:40:52The Queen's funeral, coronation, the military precision
00:40:56with which we can do these events is unparalleled.
00:40:59I think that the phrase that was used with the Queen a lot
00:41:02was the soft power that she had,
00:41:04and that she would travel the world.
00:41:06She wanted to meet the Queen.
00:41:08I think they do need to travel a lot,
00:41:11and I think Charles and Camilla haven't been able to travel so much.
00:41:14I do think they need to go abroad and promote Britain PLC,
00:41:17and I think that is hard work, and that's really important.
00:41:20And it backfired last year when William and Kate went to the Caribbean.
00:41:23Yes, it did.
00:41:24Because it was seen as white imperialism.
00:41:26What do you think work?
00:41:28What is working royal, Jonathan?
00:41:30Getting booed in the Caribbean.
00:41:33Do they work harder now than they did in the past?
00:41:36I don't think so.
00:41:37I think they have a lot more private time than before.
00:41:40The ones I look at the most, 18th century French royals,
00:41:42have no private time at all.
00:41:44Didn't they?
00:41:45No.
00:41:46They didn't live as long, though.
00:41:48They dined in public.
00:41:49They slept in public.
00:41:50They got dressed in public.
00:41:51They gave birth in public.
00:41:53They gave birth in public, absolutely.
00:41:55Right, so they have quite a nice time.
00:41:58It changed in the 19th century when Victoria said,
00:42:00I'm going to have a private home with a private life
00:42:02with my husband and my children.
00:42:04So Queen Victoria set the pace.
00:42:06And also the tone for family monarchy.
00:42:08Although she got that from her grandmother.
00:42:11Charlotte of Mecklenburg is the forgotten queen,
00:42:13and she's the one, if you remember the movie
00:42:15The Madness of King George,
00:42:17she's the one who says,
00:42:18Smile and wave, it's what you're paid for.
00:42:20Helen Mirren, it was so brilliant.
00:42:22Quite a lot of truth in that, actually.
00:42:24It was her first who said,
00:42:27Keep your mouth shut.
00:42:29Do your job.
00:42:30Don't complain.
00:42:31And I think that's what people maybe have got upset about.
00:42:34Harry, you had this benefit of this great background and wealth.
00:42:38All you needed to do was smile and wave.
00:42:41That was all you needed to do,
00:42:43but you decided not to.
00:42:44Anyway, but I've got another question.
00:42:46I have a question.
00:42:47Smile and wave.
00:42:48I have a question.
00:42:49Smile and wave.
00:42:50We've had a lot of questions around finances.
00:42:55Obviously, we are funding them.
00:42:57Ken Turton has made the observation
00:43:00that it seems like they get richer and richer every year.
00:43:02They do.
00:43:03I think that's actually a fact.
00:43:05Most rich people do get richer.
00:43:07Yes, because of various income streams.
00:43:11So what justification Ian Montgomery wants to know,
00:43:15is there for funding a royal family
00:43:18that he believes we don't get enough in return?
00:43:23He thinks, obviously, UK PLC.
00:43:26But does that work out?
00:43:29The amount of money they get versus what they bring in.
00:43:33Are those books balanced?
00:43:36No, they're not.
00:43:38It's extraordinary.
00:43:40It never ceases to amaze me,
00:43:43the attention that Harry and Meghan get over Archie Well
00:43:47and its accounts,
00:43:48when it's got nothing to do with Britain's PLC anymore.
00:43:51It's the other side of the world.
00:43:52And yet we don't apply the same level of scrutiny
00:43:55to our own royals.
00:43:57One of the reasons is it's very, very difficult.
00:43:59David Cameron cut them a wonderful deal
00:44:02with the Sovereign Grant,
00:44:03which is the Crown Estates.
00:44:05The amount they get is pegged to how successful
00:44:08and how much money the Crown Estates deliver.
00:44:10They've had abundant years with all the wind farms in the sea.
00:44:13So much so that Charles has given a few billion back.
00:44:16Tossed it the other way.
00:44:18He didn't have to do that.
00:44:20So that's a good thing.
00:44:21Well, it's a worry, isn't it?
00:44:22When it's up to his discretion.
00:44:24Also, he doesn't pay any inheritance tax.
00:44:27So then no wonder Harry feels sore
00:44:30because it shoots down that line
00:44:33from Queen to Charles to William.
00:44:36And also we never talk about the duchies,
00:44:38the Duchy of Lancaster,
00:44:39which is in the name of the King
00:44:41and the Duchy of Cornwall,
00:44:42except from corporation tax,
00:44:44except from capital gains tax.
00:44:47They've gone up in value 16 fold
00:44:50since the reign of the Queen to the current King.
00:44:53The billions of pounds that this generates,
00:44:56the profit alone, 1.6 billion.
00:44:58I mean, we're talking at the moment
00:44:59about the rest of Britain's elderly,
00:45:01excluding Charles,
00:45:03having to rescind their fuel duty.
00:45:05But actually we could just apply
00:45:08a bit more scrutiny and taxation
00:45:10to some of the major assets
00:45:12that come in the royal name
00:45:13and you'd get the money there.
00:45:15We'll see how much money's come in.
00:45:18My only point really, I think,
00:45:19is just to question the tourism idea.
00:45:21I think that it certainly does bring in people.
00:45:24You know, Americans do love coming
00:45:26to see Buckingham Palace,
00:45:28but I think really Americans like to come
00:45:30because Anne Boleyn was here
00:45:31or Henry VIII was here
00:45:33and that would still exist
00:45:34whether the monarchy existed or not.
00:45:36Do you think so?
00:45:37I don't know.
00:45:38I'm not sure.
00:45:39I think that it adds something,
00:45:41but I don't think it would completely
00:45:42take it away if it weren't there.
00:45:44I mean, my maths is appalling,
00:45:46but I have been led to believe
00:45:48from my brief research
00:45:50that the tourism that they bring in,
00:45:52I agree it's difficult to quantify exactly,
00:45:54does exceed the sole fuel in the garden
00:45:57quite considerably.
00:45:58I agree with everything that Tessa said
00:46:00and I think their vast estates
00:46:02and the riches that they make
00:46:04more and more of every year
00:46:06is completely out of touch
00:46:08with how people are having to live
00:46:10and the cutting of the fuel.
00:46:11I do think that they are becoming
00:46:13increasingly anachronistic in today's world.
00:46:16I do, and I think how they can
00:46:18be seen to be more relevant
00:46:20and more in touch,
00:46:21but again, retaining their
00:46:23magisterial mystique is a dilemma.
00:46:25That's the balance.
00:46:26It's massively difficult.
00:46:27But also, they're exempt
00:46:29from so many of the rules
00:46:31that the rest of us lumber under.
00:46:33For example, okay,
00:46:35so the sovereign's will,
00:46:38courtesy of an Act of Parliament,
00:46:40is private.
00:46:42Prince Philip's?
00:46:43And not just Prince Philip,
00:46:45every other royal that fancies
00:46:47to have his or her will private
00:46:49since 1910 when Mary of Teck
00:46:51had a sort of unsavoury brother,
00:46:53was it, who had affairs?
00:46:55Hid his will.
00:46:56So we're not going to know
00:46:57what's in Prince Philip's will
00:46:59for another 90 years.
00:47:01So do you think a way
00:47:03that they can rectify
00:47:05is just through transparency,
00:47:07just being more transparent?
00:47:08So it's not like we want to get rid
00:47:10of the monarchy,
00:47:11but actually be more transparent
00:47:13about it so we have a...
00:47:14Yeah, yeah.
00:47:15And I don't know about you guys,
00:47:16but that line,
00:47:17it's about preserving their dignity.
00:47:18But I think it's undignified
00:47:19to actually have so much cloak
00:47:21and dagger and secrecy.
00:47:22I completely agree.
00:47:23Does anyone here know?
00:47:24James Howard's asked this question.
00:47:25I think it's really interesting.
00:47:26It's like, what would happen
00:47:27to the crown estate
00:47:29if the monarchy did end?
00:47:31Where would all that money go?
00:47:33Such a good question.
00:47:34Does anyone on this panel know?
00:47:36Historical royal palaces,
00:47:37I'm sure, would just take it.
00:47:39Okay.
00:47:41And then they'd be given
00:47:42to the public, you mean?
00:47:43Right, so a historical royal palace
00:47:45is a charity.
00:47:46It used to be called
00:47:47the Works Commission.
00:47:49It was part of the government,
00:47:50but now it's a private charity.
00:47:51And so it looks after the palaces
00:47:53that aren't lived in.
00:47:54And so if the monarchy ended
00:47:57and the crown fund was returned,
00:47:59I think it would just go
00:48:00to maintain the others as heritage.
00:48:03And so the sovereign grant
00:48:05is about 86 million.
00:48:07It went up again this year,
00:48:09but it sits at approximately
00:48:11around 86 million
00:48:13to 100 million pounds a year
00:48:14to keep the royals afloat.
00:48:16And that is taken
00:48:18from the crown estates.
00:48:20So if you no longer
00:48:21had a royal family,
00:48:23all it would mean
00:48:24is you wouldn't take
00:48:25that 100 million or so
00:48:26from the crown estate's profits.
00:48:28They would remain
00:48:29within the crown estates
00:48:30and you could distribute
00:48:31them differently.
00:48:32You'd have to carry on
00:48:33servicing Buckingham Palace,
00:48:34for instance.
00:48:35There'd be a lot
00:48:36of empty properties suddenly.
00:48:38But we saw what happened
00:48:39already with Ireland in 1922.
00:48:41They took the crown fund
00:48:42and they simply nationalised it
00:48:45and made it part
00:48:46of the state fund
00:48:47for the new nation of Ireland
00:48:48in the 1920s.
00:48:50Interesting, interesting.
00:48:52But obviously with the video yesterday,
00:48:54there's obviously a plan
00:48:56that it continues.
00:48:58I'm just very interested
00:48:59in your thoughts,
00:49:01whether you think William
00:49:03will be bringing in
00:49:06that transparency that
00:49:08you seem to be thinking...
00:49:10Anna, you lead with it.
00:49:11You seem to be thinking
00:49:12we desperately need it.
00:49:14I'll take that grenade.
00:49:17I think that the likelihood
00:49:20of William allowing us
00:49:22increased transparency
00:49:23into the finances,
00:49:25into wills,
00:49:27offering to pay
00:49:28inheritance tax
00:49:29is absolutely next to nothing.
00:49:31Even if their survival
00:49:32depended on it?
00:49:33It doesn't.
00:49:34Exactly.
00:49:35It doesn't.
00:49:36And I think that
00:49:37when we talk about...
00:49:38One of the reasons
00:49:39that we love the Queen so much
00:49:41is that she was so dedicated.
00:49:43You felt like she gave
00:49:44everything to the country.
00:49:46And I think the difficulty
00:49:48in retaining the monarchy,
00:49:51this young family,
00:49:53but there is the feeling,
00:49:54even in that lovely video yesterday,
00:49:56that they want it on their terms.
00:49:58And I think what gets
00:50:00people's back up
00:50:01is that here is
00:50:02an immensely privileged family
00:50:04by right of birth.
00:50:05It's not a meritocracy.
00:50:06It's not because
00:50:07you're brilliant
00:50:08or you're gifted or whatever.
00:50:09You've been born
00:50:10into the right family.
00:50:11You have all this.
00:50:12And there's a real feeling,
00:50:13I think as Tessa said,
00:50:14with William of entitlement
00:50:16that they want to retain that.
00:50:18And I think the difficulty
00:50:19in staying relevant
00:50:20is actually proving
00:50:22to the people
00:50:23that they're prepared
00:50:24to act in a more
00:50:26meritocratic manner.
00:50:27That is not going to happen.
00:50:28That is not going to happen.
00:50:30I mean, we've had,
00:50:31you know, the King
00:50:32does his, you know,
00:50:35amazing charity work.
00:50:36The Prince's Trust was brilliant.
00:50:37The Prince's Trust was amazing.
00:50:39And you have to think about
00:50:40how many people
00:50:41that did pull out of poverty.
00:50:42Absolutely.
00:50:43In that terms of giving back,
00:50:45I would say,
00:50:46argue actually,
00:50:47William does quite a lot
00:50:49also behind the scenes
00:50:51on homelessness.
00:50:52Yes.
00:50:53And I do think
00:50:54that is kind of
00:50:55an authentic part of him.
00:50:56I do.
00:50:57I'm not saying...
00:50:58And part of,
00:50:59part of his...
00:51:00Exactly.
00:51:01The way he was brought up.
00:51:02No, I'm not saying
00:51:03that they don't want to give back
00:51:05and they don't want to do good.
00:51:06I really think they do.
00:51:07And I do think
00:51:08that they absolutely,
00:51:09they turn up at a function.
00:51:10We were saying,
00:51:11well, they give it a magic,
00:51:12a free song.
00:51:13It's beamed all over the world.
00:51:15They are a force for good.
00:51:17They can be a force for good.
00:51:18However, what I'm saying is
00:51:20that there is a massive, massive
00:51:22schism emerging
00:51:23between this immensely
00:51:25privileged family
00:51:26and the wealth that they have
00:51:27and how the rest of us
00:51:28are living.
00:51:29And that will be more acute
00:51:30under a Labour government.
00:51:31We're going to see
00:51:32in this October budget
00:51:33when actually,
00:51:34you are going to,
00:51:35he's going to have to
00:51:36hit the wealthy.
00:51:37There's going to be
00:51:38inheritance tax,
00:51:39there's going to be
00:51:40capital gains.
00:51:41And the exception
00:51:42to that rule,
00:51:43you know, yes,
00:51:44blinding exception
00:51:45to that rule,
00:51:46even among other
00:51:47privileged people
00:51:48and their own set,
00:51:49they are going to just
00:51:50look bonkers rich.
00:51:51But this is where
00:51:52then it does,
00:51:53it could come down
00:51:54to, you know,
00:51:55to survive.
00:51:56They will have to be
00:51:57transparent because
00:51:58it becomes too
00:51:59bonkers.
00:52:00If we start asking
00:52:01the right questions,
00:52:02what's interesting is,
00:52:03and I think this is where
00:52:04the mainstream media
00:52:05and I'll fall on my sword
00:52:06here and probably
00:52:07perhaps not you
00:52:08because you're in your
00:52:09ivory tower looking
00:52:10around.
00:52:11But we don't ask
00:52:12the right questions.
00:52:13We're guddling around
00:52:14in the soap opera.
00:52:15Most of our eyes
00:52:16directly agree.
00:52:17Are they talking?
00:52:18Aren't they?
00:52:19Are the brothers getting married?
00:52:20We should actually be saying,
00:52:21you know,
00:52:22where is the transparency?
00:52:23What is the relationship
00:52:24between the crown
00:52:25and the political estate
00:52:27What are those
00:52:28communications?
00:52:29Why was it so hard
00:52:30to ever get access
00:52:31to Prince Charles'
00:52:32spider memos?
00:52:33And why are we no longer
00:52:34even able to get access
00:52:35to William's
00:52:36equivalent memos?
00:52:37What does history
00:52:38tell us about this
00:52:39though, Jonathan?
00:52:40Well, I was just going
00:52:41to talk about,
00:52:42say something about
00:52:43now a little bit
00:52:44in that the people
00:52:45that we're talking about
00:52:46that are their peers
00:52:47a little bit,
00:52:48the Duke of Westminster
00:52:49and other, you know,
00:52:50incredibly global fortunes,
00:52:51they have armies
00:52:52of lawyers
00:52:53which they can use
00:52:54as private people.
00:52:55Whereas if a monarch
00:52:56or a member
00:52:57of the royal family
00:52:58did that,
00:52:59they would be
00:53:00torn to pieces
00:53:01by the public.
00:53:02So in a way,
00:53:03they're kind of trapped
00:53:04because they can't
00:53:05have that public role.
00:53:06But in terms of history,
00:53:07I guess it's just going back
00:53:08to the whole thing of
00:53:09you have to do
00:53:10what you're told,
00:53:11otherwise the family
00:53:12falls apart
00:53:13and revolution follows.
00:53:14But we're not a country
00:53:15prone to revolution
00:53:16unlike the French.
00:53:17Well, no.
00:53:18Possibly less.
00:53:19Right, right.
00:53:20Since 1649.
00:53:21Okay.
00:53:22So I'm going to like
00:53:23top line.
00:53:24So we're going to
00:53:25we're going to
00:53:26it's whipped time
00:53:27I must say.
00:53:28Fascinating.
00:53:29Really good fun.
00:53:30But I'm just going to like
00:53:31last five minutes.
00:53:32So I'm going to go
00:53:33through each one of you
00:53:34after this discussion.
00:53:35What are your predictions
00:53:36for what will happen next
00:53:37or what needs to happen next
00:53:38for the monarchy
00:53:39to not just to survive,
00:53:40actually to thrive?
00:53:41I think that's quite important
00:53:42for us to kind of fall back.
00:53:43They've been through
00:53:44all these things
00:53:45and I think it's
00:53:46important for us
00:53:47to kind of
00:53:48fall back.
00:53:49I think it's important
00:53:50for us to kind of
00:53:51fall back.
00:53:52They've been through
00:53:53all these charts
00:53:54through history before.
00:53:55We had, you know,
00:53:56World War.
00:53:57You know,
00:53:58I look the East End
00:53:59in the face.
00:54:00There have been
00:54:01these schisms
00:54:02in the past,
00:54:03recent past,
00:54:04and they seem to get through.
00:54:06What now?
00:54:08How do they thrive
00:54:10from here?
00:54:11To be clear,
00:54:12royal families do well
00:54:13in international wars.
00:54:15I don't want one,
00:54:16by the way.
00:54:17But after the 1936 abdication
00:54:21it was looking pretty rocky
00:54:22for Ghost George.
00:54:23Yeah.
00:54:24And along came World War II
00:54:25and actually just had
00:54:26to hold the line,
00:54:27which he did
00:54:28with his dogged little wife.
00:54:29And they pulled through
00:54:30and they reframed monarchy
00:54:31as family monarchy
00:54:32who faced down the war
00:54:33along with everyone else.
00:54:34So it doesn't look like,
00:54:36you know,
00:54:37the German jackboot's
00:54:38going to land on British soil
00:54:39any time soon.
00:54:40And Russia's were privileged
00:54:42to live on the other side
00:54:43of Europe.
00:54:44So I think,
00:54:45in terms of just resetting
00:54:47the mood music,
00:54:48I would extend an olive branch
00:54:49to Harry.
00:54:50I wouldn't invite him back in
00:54:51as a working role.
00:54:52I don't think he wants it.
00:54:53She certainly doesn't want it.
00:54:54But it just,
00:54:55it looks compassionate.
00:54:57It looks redemptive.
00:54:58And I think that's part
00:54:59of monarchy's role,
00:55:00especially with the established
00:55:01Church of England relationship.
00:55:03Yeah.
00:55:04I think I would want to see
00:55:06and it won't happen,
00:55:07them to try and embrace reform,
00:55:11including financial
00:55:13and political reform.
00:55:15I would like to see
00:55:16less royal exemption
00:55:17around those areas.
00:55:18The Freedom of Information Act,
00:55:19for example,
00:55:20and why we can't see anything
00:55:22of Prince Andrew's service.
00:55:23You can't go touches years
00:55:26as a working role.
00:55:27That's bundled away for decades.
00:55:29But I think perhaps that actually
00:55:31it's naive to expect that
00:55:32to come from the royal family.
00:55:33Maybe that should come
00:55:34from our political estate.
00:55:35Right.
00:55:36Interesting.
00:55:37What do you think, Jonathan?
00:55:38What do your predictions
00:55:39for what's going to happen next,
00:55:40what needs to happen next
00:55:41for them to thrive?
00:55:42Well, my interest
00:55:43has almost always been
00:55:44about the international aspect.
00:55:45And whenever even any other
00:55:47European monarchies,
00:55:49whenever they would say
00:55:50the queen,
00:55:51they meant Queen Elizabeth II.
00:55:52Right.
00:55:53So that was a given.
00:55:54And I think the strength
00:55:55for the future really should be
00:55:57with the Commonwealth
00:55:58and still this idea
00:55:59of a global brand.
00:56:02It's a sticky water
00:56:03as we discovered last week
00:56:04because where does a white king
00:56:06fit into a black world
00:56:08in sub-Saharan Africa?
00:56:10And maybe that's where
00:56:12the trick was missed
00:56:13because that's what was
00:56:15people thought Meghan Markle
00:56:16might help to bring
00:56:17to the royal family.
00:56:20Yeah, I agree with both
00:56:22Tessa and Richard.
00:56:23I agree with Tessa
00:56:24that I think an olive branch
00:56:25should be extended to Harry.
00:56:27I think, as we've said,
00:56:29for the patriarch of the country,
00:56:30not to be seen to do that
00:56:32is a very important object.
00:56:33What does Harry,
00:56:34to flip that around,
00:56:35what would Harry have to do
00:56:37to gain that trust?
00:56:39Because it can't be
00:56:41just the one side.
00:56:42Would Harry have to do something
00:56:44for that to happen?
00:56:45Well, I think Harry's indicated
00:56:47that he's very open
00:56:48to that happening
00:56:49and that he would like
00:56:50conciliation and reconciliation,
00:56:52especially with his father.
00:56:53I think that with his father
00:56:55being unwell,
00:56:56he must feel very isolated
00:56:57over there.
00:56:58And at the end of the day,
00:56:59he's lost his mother.
00:57:00Charles is all he has.
00:57:02And William.
00:57:03He does have the brother.
00:57:05Yes, but I don't think
00:57:06William is for turning
00:57:07and I don't think that
00:57:08that's going to happen at all.
00:57:10And I would like to see,
00:57:12I completely agree with
00:57:13everything you both said.
00:57:14I would also like to see
00:57:16a really effective,
00:57:17more slimmed down monarchy.
00:57:20But with, let's say,
00:57:22the York girls being brought in
00:57:24to help at the moment.
00:57:25But my real question,
00:57:28and I don't know the answer to it,
00:57:29is I don't understand
00:57:31how the monarchy
00:57:32is going to remain relevant
00:57:34for my daughter's generation.
00:57:35I really don't.
00:57:36It's a real fault line.
00:57:38They are an anachronism to them.
00:57:40They really are.
00:57:41That's really interesting to me
00:57:42because I would say
00:57:43they have, especially William
00:57:45and Catherine and Harry,
00:57:47and they have always been
00:57:50connecting mental health,
00:57:51quite modern issues.
00:57:53But Gen Z just don't have
00:57:54the same reverence
00:57:55to the monarchy that we have
00:57:57and that we grew up with.
00:57:58They really don't.
00:57:59I think it's worse than that.
00:58:00I think very briefly,
00:58:01with Meghan and Harry,
00:58:03the young thought
00:58:04that the monarchy was reforming.
00:58:06They looked towards it
00:58:07to acclaim,
00:58:08and then they got burnt.
00:58:10And now they've turned away
00:58:12and they're not so much
00:58:13apathetic, but angry.
00:58:14They don't want it anymore.
00:58:15They actively don't want monarchy.
00:58:17A large number of young people,
00:58:20unprecedented numbers,
00:58:21don't want a monarchy.
00:58:22How do we build statistics
00:58:24around that?
00:58:25Do you know how many people?
00:58:26You think polling was,
00:58:27it was 20,
00:58:28now off the top of my head,
00:58:30I think it was 25%
00:58:32are now anti-Britain
00:58:35having a monarchy.
00:58:37And it's much higher among young people.
00:58:39But that often happens
00:58:40with young people.
00:58:41They often reject, reject, reject.
00:58:43This was a huge missed opportunity
00:58:45that I think has done
00:58:46irreparable damage to the monarchy
00:58:48and that we will see
00:58:49further down the line
00:58:50how bad the damage was
00:58:52with the fallout
00:58:53of Meghan and Harry.
00:58:54I do think we never know
00:58:56what we don't know, do we?
00:58:57No.
00:58:58We don't know what's going to happen.
00:58:59And history is so subjective.
00:59:00History is so crazy.
00:59:01Yes.
00:59:02Especially if you think
00:59:03the new cycle
00:59:04in the last seven years
00:59:05has been quite insane.
00:59:07I do think there might be
00:59:08an opportunity
00:59:09with the younger youngers.
00:59:11We are forgetting
00:59:12that there's a whole raft,
00:59:13you know,
00:59:14your Georges,
00:59:15they seem quite,
00:59:16you know,
00:59:17I mean, they're children now,
00:59:18but we don't know.
00:59:20But there is going to be
00:59:22a new cast.
00:59:24So the future's in their hands,
00:59:27really, isn't it?
00:59:28So on that,
00:59:29I would like to say
00:59:31thank you so much.
00:59:33Could have chatted for hours.
00:59:35Our next virtual event
00:59:37is going to be
00:59:38on September 25th.
00:59:40We will stream
00:59:41the Independence
00:59:42First Climate 100 event.
00:59:44And that will be a celebration
00:59:46to honour those on the front line
00:59:48of the climate crisis.
00:59:49We'll have
00:59:50former UK Prime Minister
00:59:52Theresa May speaking there
00:59:54with best-selling author
00:59:55John Funyant
00:59:56and the Independence brilliant
00:59:58war correspondent
00:59:59Bill True
01:00:00and Wawa Gathuro,
01:00:02the Kenyan-American climate activist.
01:00:04So that's great.
01:00:05Please have a look
01:00:07at the link for the tickets,
01:00:08which is also in the chat box.
01:00:10Get yours.
01:00:11And please join me
01:00:12in saying a huge thank you
01:00:14to these brilliant,
01:00:15brilliant people
01:00:16who will be writing
01:00:17and appearing
01:00:18in the pages of The Independent
01:00:19always and very soon.
01:00:21Thank you so much.
01:00:22Thanks for having us.