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00:00:00I found out about making a murder from one of our assistant district attorneys.
00:00:22I was over at the courthouse for some court appearance and he told me that this documentary
00:00:28was coming out.
00:00:29He said it's not going to be complimentary towards law enforcement.
00:00:34He goes, I think it'll be a flash in the pan, like it'll come out for a while, people will
00:00:38be all enraged and then common sense will assert itself and it'll be done.
00:00:45So it's like, oh, okay, yeah, thanks for the heads up.
00:00:53That particular Christmas, telephone rings at my house.
00:00:59My wife hands me the phone and this guy gets on there and he's screaming profanities and
00:01:08he's saying, you know, I hope that I'm ruining your Christmas and I tell you what, why don't
00:01:16you just sit on your couch in front of your children, put a gun in your mouth and pull
00:01:21the fucking trigger.
00:01:24Definitely 2016 was a challenge.
00:01:35Both my residence and to my office at the sheriff's office were recorded.
00:01:4624 hours straight, midnight to midnight.
00:02:00People were calling from all over the world.
00:02:02Hello, I'm calling from Norway.
00:02:05I've just seen the documentary of Stephen Avery and I should say, you are just a piece
00:02:13of shit.
00:02:14Go and fuck yourself and die, you piece of shit.
00:02:44You're a piece of shit, you're a piece of shit, you're a piece of shit, you're a piece
00:03:10of shit.
00:03:13You're a piece of shit, you're a piece of shit, you're a piece of shit.
00:03:36I think that there are very few documentaries that inspired more international outrage than
00:03:41Making a Murderer.
00:03:42I had one individual inform me that after he killed me, he was going to gang rape my
00:03:47wife.
00:03:49We've got Andy Colbert talking about the effect of Making a Murderer and it's to garner sympathy
00:03:59for him, isn't it?
00:04:00You know, that's what it's all about.
00:04:03I had another individual call me 17 times at work in one day.
00:04:09And it's trying to say, look, Making a Murderer has done something wrong by making Colbert
00:04:17look bad.
00:04:18He said that, you know, one of these days you're going to get up, go for work, I'll
00:04:23be on your rooftop, I'll take you out, I'll get your family, I'll get your kids.
00:04:28I mean, let's face it, he makes himself look bad.
00:04:32It's kind of hard to believe that someone would take the time out of their day to call
00:04:36the subject of a docuseries in order to threaten and harass them.
00:04:41Andy Colbert was one of those unfortunate subjects.
00:04:45I'm going to ask you to listen, if you would, to a short phone call.
00:04:51And one of the main reasons for that is because of a dispatch call that he made to run the
00:04:55license plates of Teresa Hallback's vehicle before it was found on the Avery salvage yard.
00:05:01Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, this is Lynn.
00:05:05Lynn.
00:05:06Hi, Andy.
00:05:07Can you run...
00:05:09Is that you?
00:05:11It sounds like me.
00:05:12I believe it's me.
00:05:13Okay, I'll let...
00:05:14Can you run Sam William Henry 582, see if he comes back for that vehicle?
00:05:18Sam William Henry 582.
00:05:20Okay, it shows that she's a missing person, and it lists to Teresa Hallback.
00:05:26Okay.
00:05:27Okay, that's what you're looking for, Andy?
00:05:2999 Toyota.
00:05:30Yep.
00:05:32The defense felt that when I called in that license plate, the reason I was calling it
00:05:38in is I had Teresa Hallback's vehicle stopped.
00:05:43When I came to the part, the significant moment of Officer Colburn calling in to check on
00:05:50the license plate, I was sort of mentally trying to manufacture reasons why that might
00:05:57be happening.
00:05:59Were you looking at these plates when you called them in?
00:06:02No, sir.
00:06:10You know, he's found the car in some illegal way, and he wants to verify it's the car so
00:06:15he can later find it in a legal way.
00:06:19Andrew Colburn's call proves he was in fact with the vehicle, or else he wouldn't have
00:06:24called in her plate.
00:06:26In the phone call about the plates, is it your understanding that that phone call was
00:06:32made on November 3rd?
00:06:36The dispatch call wasn't something that was on our radar, wasn't something that we had
00:06:42paid any attention to until Strang brought it up in trial.
00:06:47You can't tell from the call recording itself when it came in, other than you hear the dispatcher
00:06:55describing Teresa Hallback as a missing person.
00:06:59There's no timestamp on that tape at all?
00:07:02There's not.
00:07:03Not on the copy that was given us by the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department.
00:07:08The calls were in chronological order, but they were not timestamped, so you really couldn't
00:07:12tell when the dispatch call occurred.
00:07:15I'm guessing 11-0-3-0-5.
00:07:20It's important to note that Stephen Avery's trial took place more than a year after Colburn
00:07:24initially made that dispatch call, so it's totally understandable why he may not have
00:07:28been able to recall specific dates and times.
00:07:32Why aren't the calls timestamped?
00:07:33Unless you're stripping them manually, we should know exactly when Colburn called.
00:07:36He shouldn't have to make up a story.
00:07:37Probably after I received a phone call from Investigator Wiegert letting me know that
00:07:42there was a missing person.
00:07:45At trial, it had to be after Wiegert called me.
00:07:47That's what the jury was told.
00:07:49But there's no way you should have been looking at Teresa Hallback's license plate.
00:07:55On November 3, on the back end of a 1999 Toyota.
00:07:59He came up with a lie, so I want to know why he came up with a lie.
00:08:03So because Colburn couldn't give an exact date and time for his dispatch call and was
00:08:06just sort of guessing that it was probably November 3, 2005, Stephen Avery's supporter
00:08:11said that he lied.
00:08:13He must have just made up that he thought that it was after Wiegert's call.
00:08:18Sean Atwood here, prison rights activist, calling out Deputy Colburn for all the villainous
00:08:25stuff he did in making a murderer to set Stephen Avery and Brendan Dassey up.
00:08:31I shouldn't have been and I was not looking at the license plate.
00:08:39When Andy tries to tell me, no, I'm honest and I didn't do anything here.
00:08:43It's like, but wait.
00:08:45How can you be doing these things two days before the RAV4 is found?
00:08:50How could you have been looking at that vehicle and then go, I don't understand about it?
00:08:56Because you're aware now that the first time that Toyota was reported found was two days
00:09:02later on November 5.
00:09:04Yes, sir.
00:09:07After that, what do you know?
00:09:09The car's found on Avery's.
00:09:11Investigators believe that there were only two explanations as to why he would make that
00:09:16call.
00:09:17The only way you could have been looking at that vehicle is if you were either involved
00:09:21in the murder of Teresa Halbach or you were involved in the moving of evidence to the
00:09:29Avery property after you found her dead by some other means.
00:09:35In what world could you believe the RAV4 was found by Andy Colburn on the side of the road?
00:09:42You got these guys, these bad cops that have this RAV4.
00:09:47What do we do?
00:09:48We got to sneak on to the Avery salvage yard and plant it in the back there.
00:09:54Okay, so that's not easy.
00:09:56They just make it seem like everybody's crazy.
00:09:59They say, we're public servants.
00:10:00We're going to serve the people.
00:10:01We're not going to do anything wrong.
00:10:02It's always, we're not going to do anything wrong until you get caught.
00:10:06I want you to listen to whether you can identify whether this appears to be a radio call or
00:10:13a call on the telephone line.
00:10:20Manitoba County Sheriff's Department, this is Lynn.
00:10:23Lynn.
00:10:24Hi Andy.
00:10:25Can you run Sam William Henry 582?
00:10:29It sounds like a license plate check.
00:10:31It sounded like it was over the telephone.
00:10:33Okay, not over the radio?
00:10:35No, sir.
00:10:36Okay.
00:10:37And why would a road patrol sergeant use a cell phone if he's driving and he has a radio
00:10:42right here and he has a radio in his car?
00:10:45I don't know.
00:10:46That's the answer that he's probably going to give you.
00:10:50Each patrol car by 2003 had its own cell phone.
00:10:56I'm using the sheriff's office cell phone.
00:11:00Typically when you're calling in a license plate, you would use the radio when you're
00:11:03on duty?
00:11:04Yes, sir.
00:11:05The radio, though, is something that citizens, if they have a police scanner, can overhear?
00:11:13Yes, sir.
00:11:14If it's a regular frequency, yes.
00:11:18I called on my cell phone because I wasn't going to put that plate over the radio just
00:11:23yet.
00:11:24If that person had a scanner, I didn't want them harming her if they didn't know that
00:11:31we knew she was missing.
00:11:34Why is he going to grab his cell phone?
00:11:36Because he wouldn't think it's recorded.
00:11:37Either that or he was on his day off.
00:11:39That's the only logical explanation.
00:11:43Tape you heard is clearly a phone call, not a radio in.
00:11:48So I think it's probably more likely that this license check is November 4 when Sergeant
00:11:55Colburn acknowledges he was off.
00:11:58What do I care if you think that it was the 4th or that it fits into your theory of defense?
00:12:04At trial, a big deal was made about November 4 and what Andy Colburn was doing that day.
00:12:13Do you remember what you did on the 4th?
00:12:14We'll get back to that.
00:12:15But do you recall generally your day on the 4th of November?
00:12:20Yes, sir.
00:12:21You direct your attention one day further on the 5th.
00:12:26Mr. Kratz asked him, do you remember what you were doing on November 4, 2005?
00:12:30He says, yes, I do.
00:12:32I was off.
00:12:33I remember what I was doing.
00:12:34He doesn't tell you what he was doing.
00:12:36Neither the defense nor the state specifically asked him what it was he was doing that day.
00:12:43And a lot has been said from truthers, saying that the defense team made a mistake by not
00:12:48asking that.
00:12:50Would it have helped the defense's case to know what Colburn was doing that day?
00:12:58When I was on patrol, I worked a schedule that was six days on, three days off.
00:13:03I had a Friday, Saturday, Sunday off.
00:13:06So I was looking forward to having a weekend off.
00:13:12Friday, I had taken my son to school, and then I made a habit every day of checking
00:13:22in on my mother-in-law.
00:13:24This particular day, I mooched lunch off her.
00:13:28Then I probably ran some errands in the city of Manitowoc, went back home and spent some
00:13:33time with my neighbor once he got off work.
00:13:37When my wife got home, I think we just kind of stayed home and watched TV that particular
00:13:42Friday night.
00:13:43Didn't really do anything.
00:13:46Having Colburn explain all that wouldn't have helped the defense at all.
00:13:52Draw your own conclusions, obviously, like from any other piece of evidence.
00:13:58It was better to let the jury wonder.
00:14:02If the defense really wanted to know when that call was made, they could have requested
00:14:07the date and timestamps from Manitowoc County back then.
00:14:12But it was better to let the jury believe that the call was on the 4th when Colburn
00:14:15was off.
00:14:16In an effort to prove that, the Sluther community attempted to obtain Manitowoc's dispatch
00:14:22records in January of 2016, but they wouldn't receive their answer until over three years
00:14:28later.
00:14:29Hi, everybody.
00:14:30Let's hang out.
00:14:31Hello.
00:14:32So, we should probably start with this tweet from AC Rookie.
00:14:40In the search of truth and justice, I present you with the answer to the 14-year-old question,
00:14:46when?
00:14:47Now, it's July of 2019, and Manitowoc's dispatch logs are just released with timestamps.
00:14:58Third or the fourth.
00:15:00It's been just like a huge question mark, and we've got the question answered now.
00:15:04So, awesome job.
00:15:06I was thrilled that Rookie was able to get these documents because this is something
00:15:10we've all wanted for three years.
00:15:12We wanted to know when Colburn's dispatch call occurred.
00:15:16Confirmed, Colburn's call time is at 9.22 p.m.
00:15:219.22 p.m. on November 3rd, 2005.
00:15:27Go ahead.
00:15:28We're en route.
00:15:31Copy.
00:15:32I'm in the church driveway right across from the residence.
00:15:40Colburn would have been sitting in the parking lot across the street from Zipper's residence,
00:15:45waiting for the other officers to show up.
00:15:48It nailed it down to where he was when he made that call.
00:15:52Can you run Sam William Henry 582?
00:15:57My first thought was, well, does that mean he was telling the truth?
00:16:01That he was really just calling to confirm what he had written down?
00:16:10Investigator Weeger, did he give you the license plate number for Teresa Halbach when he called you?
00:16:16I don't remember the entire content of our conversation, but obviously he must have,
00:16:21because I was asking the dispatcher to run the plate for me.
00:16:27So when I was talking on the phone initially with Lieutenant Weeger,
00:16:31I didn't pull my patrol car over to the side of the road.
00:16:36You know, a lot of times when you're driving the car, you can't stop and take notes.
00:16:41I had the phone kind of cocked under one ear like this, and I was writing on my knee.
00:16:46And it was difficult for me to see the plate number that I had written down.
00:16:52I said, I better verify this.
00:16:55So I did call the dispatch center and I said, hey, run this plate number.
00:16:59Tell me what it comes back to.
00:17:10So, unless it was parked in the parking lot where he was,
00:17:14this really discredits the whole theory that Culverin was standing behind the vehicle when he made that phone call.
00:17:26Are we ready to start?
00:17:28It's your show.
00:17:30My question is, if you were going to put somebody on the stand
00:17:34and accuse that person of a conspiracy,
00:17:38then when is the evidence about the conspiracy going to come in,
00:17:42rather than just a phone call about licensing the plate?
00:17:45The defense, they only presented a tiny handful of witnesses.
00:17:51Almost their entire case was made in cross-examination.
00:17:55Do you suppose that if a defense lawyer stood up and asked you,
00:18:00did you plant blood in Teresa Halbach's car, do you suppose you'd tell me?
00:18:04They were never really building this narrative of this is how the frame job was done,
00:18:10because they didn't have the evidence to suggest it.
00:18:13Teresa Halbach's DNA was in the lab.
00:18:15How it gets to the bullet is something the jury can consider.
00:18:19And if you had done it, do you think you'd admit it here under oath?
00:18:23I didn't do that. It's ridiculous.
00:18:26Not that I necessarily expected a Perry Mason type moment,
00:18:29but I did think that the evidence maybe would have lent itself more strongly to the frame-up defense.
00:18:36Questions?
00:18:38Every day, they were down in the media area trying to explain,
00:18:42okay, this was what we were trying to do.
00:18:45It wasn't readily apparent that they were coming up with this grand conspiracy.
00:18:51It wasn't until Making a Murderer.
00:18:54Colburn seemed very kind of shaky under a little nervous under cross-examination.
00:19:02I mean, the main thing for the plates for me,
00:19:06it's that body language at trial where Andy is actually answering those questions.
00:19:12In Making a Murderer, when Colburn is testifying about his call to dispatch,
00:19:15his body language comes across as very suspicious.
00:19:19He does this through a dry heave.
00:19:22What viewers aren't aware of is that some of Colburn's reaction shots are from a different part of trial.
00:19:28Three of the shots were taken from about 45 minutes earlier in the trial.
00:19:36One of them is just Colburn waiting for Strang's first question.
00:19:41He suddenly sits up like he's now listening intently.
00:19:45But they use that shot in the part where Strang says he's now going to play the dispatch call.
00:19:50I'm going to ask you to listen, if you would, to a short phone call.
00:19:57And then they use that shot again less than a minute later.
00:20:01The plate comes back to a missing person or woman.
00:20:05Yes, sir.
00:20:07And then they use that shot a third time, again out of place.
00:20:12This is the first time your integrity's been questioned.
00:20:17As it applies to being a police officer, yes.
00:20:21Okay. And it's not the first time Mr. Avery's has been, so I have some questions for you.
00:20:27It's like their go-to nervous shot of Colburn.
00:20:30What really happens before Strang plays the call looks to me like Colburn is just simply bored out of his mind.
00:20:37The actual reaction Colburn had to the integrity question.
00:20:41That's when he's wringing his hands.
00:20:44It's what they use last in the license plate scene.
00:20:47Were you looking at these plates when you called them in?
00:20:50No, sir.
00:20:53To me, that seems like a liar.
00:20:57His eyes, his hands.
00:21:01Colburn looked uncomfortable.
00:21:03It looked like he was caught.
00:21:07The real trial footage stays on Strang.
00:21:10And the next time you see Colburn, he's answering a different question.
00:21:15One of the big ah-ha moments for a lot of people,
00:21:19One of the big ah-ha moments for a lot of people in Making a Murderer was Andy Colburn's phone call.
00:21:23He had found the car.
00:21:25But they don't realize that the testimony about it had been edited.
00:21:29Avery's defense attorneys ask him.
00:21:32Well, you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Cadillac.
00:21:47Or the back end of a 1999 Toyota.
00:21:50His response in the film was yes.
00:21:55Yes.
00:21:58That question and answer exchange never happened in trial.
00:22:01In real life, can Kratz objected.
00:22:04You can understand why someone might think that, can't you?
00:22:08It's a conclusion, Judge. You're fading the promise of the jury.
00:22:12I agree. The objection's sustained.
00:22:16The question was never answered.
00:22:17And in fact, when you see Colburn say yes, he's answering the exact opposite question.
00:22:22This call sounded like hundreds of other license plate or registration checks you've done through dispatch before.
00:22:31Yes.
00:22:34Andy agrees that this call was not suspicious.
00:22:38It was perfectly ordinary.
00:22:47This is such an interesting series and it's real. It's real life.
00:22:52This is not fiction.
00:22:54I started to look at the transcripts.
00:22:57I started to realize more and more that this was an entertainment piece.
00:23:00This wasn't a piece of journalism like I thought it was going to be.
00:23:03It seemed like almost everyone believed these filmmakers based upon what they were seeing.
00:23:08It was a story that was really tailor made for Hollywood.
00:23:11Moira DeMoss and Laura Ricciardi tapped into people's insatiable desire to discover the truth.
00:23:18And it helps sometimes when that truth is entertaining.
00:23:22They were rearranging the testimony.
00:23:26And I thought, this is bullshit.
00:23:28People can question our process. That's valid.
00:23:31And we could respond if given the opportunity and we're happy to respond.
00:23:35And we think that our work would stand up to any scrutiny.
00:23:42Why are you editing my courtroom testimony?
00:23:45Yes.
00:23:47It's incredible to think that you're going to manipulate the testimony in that way.
00:23:52You're going to edit different answers to different questions.
00:23:55Make misrepresentations about things.
00:23:58You should be still faithful to the facts.
00:24:05Good evening everyone. I'm Shelly Bowtown. Thanks for joining us.
00:24:08The search for a missing Calumet County woman has intensified tonight.
00:24:12Teresa Halbach was last seen nearly a week ago in Manitowoc County.
00:24:17Officials have been on the scene of the Avery property behind me.
00:24:20They've been here all day long and they are still here tonight.
00:24:23You can see they have lights up.
00:24:24Authorities say they are not going to stop until they can bring Teresa home.
00:24:29Tomorrow is my mom's birthday.
00:24:31So if we could bring her home, that would be the best birthday present anyone could ever receive.
00:24:38Steve and Avery believes the family is being framed.
00:24:41That Teresa Halbach's car was planted.
00:24:44That was his line from day one. It was about the planting.
00:24:48And that he was being set up. And that he was being framed.
00:24:51And he wasn't even charged yet.
00:24:53Who the fuck is going to put that vehicle in the yard?
00:24:56It don't make no sense.
00:24:58He was on TV constantly saying, it's Manitowoc County.
00:25:01They're framing me. You know, they're planning evidence.
00:25:03I know that's what they're doing.
00:25:05I mean, it's hard to plant evidence on you.
00:25:08I mean, it's not often you see somebody, potentially the focus of a murder investigation on TV,
00:25:13saying constantly, I didn't do it.
00:25:15And his phone rings and it's a reporter and he says, yeah, I'll come talk to you.
00:25:19It was pretty wild.
00:25:21I found that, you know, unusual, but yet Steven, he liked to talk.
00:25:28Okay, some questions to clear up with you.
00:25:32Some questions to clear up with you.
00:25:34As far as when Teresa came to your place.
00:25:38Did she go in the house at all?
00:25:40No.
00:25:41Okay. She's never been in your house?
00:25:44Yeah, she's been in my house.
00:25:46Because yesterday I think I asked you that.
00:25:48And you said that she wasn't.
00:25:50No, not that time.
00:25:51Maybe at first.
00:25:53A long time ago, I think.
00:25:55I come to the door.
00:25:57My insight, looking back at the recording that I have on Steven from both the first day and the second day,
00:26:02was the idea that even though he was talking himself into corners,
00:26:05that would be later disproven by facts, he just still talked.
00:26:09The idea of Teresa being on that property and what she had done or didn't do.
00:26:14The idea of the burning barrels not burning or not having burned.
00:26:19Did you guys burn your guns?
00:26:20Oh yeah, there's burning barrels in there.
00:26:22Where at?
00:26:23I wasn't familiar with the area at all.
00:26:25Down in Manitowoc.
00:26:27So I went through with him drawing out diagrams.
00:26:30You know, where his sister Barb's house was, where his house was.
00:26:34And then I believe we got information that possibly some dogs on the scene in Manitowoc
00:26:40had alerted on some burn barrels.
00:26:44My sister's got some over here.
00:26:46Over here?
00:26:47And he pointed that there were like three or four burning barrels behind his sister's house.
00:26:51Three or four?
00:26:52Yeah, somewhere in there.
00:26:53She has kids.
00:26:54Yeah.
00:26:55And a lot of garbage.
00:26:56Yeah.
00:26:57I asked him about his own burning barrel.
00:26:59He said, oh yeah, I've got one right here.
00:27:02And that's where he drew an X on that too.
00:27:05I think I got one out here.
00:27:07You got one out front?
00:27:08Yeah.
00:27:09Where at, right here?
00:27:10Yeah, someplace in there, yeah.
00:27:11When's the last time you burned?
00:27:16Two weeks ago.
00:27:17Okay.
00:27:18What'd you burn, just regular garbage?
00:27:19Just garbage.
00:27:21He gave me an answer that he hasn't burned anything in a couple weeks.
00:27:27Tell the jury what you remember about that burn barrel at about 520 p.m. on the 31st of October.
00:27:34When me and Earl had pulled up on the golf cart,
00:27:38we had stopped in between the house and the garage,
00:27:42and the smoke from the burn barrel was blowing right in my face,
00:27:46so I had told Earl to move ahead.
00:27:49Me and Robert Fabian were driving past Stephen's house in the golf cart,
00:27:53and Fabian testified that he witnessed smoke that smelled like plastic
00:27:58coming from Stephen Avery's burn barrel.
00:28:01It was kind of a heavier smoke, and it smelled like plastic.
00:28:06It didn't smell like regular garbage.
00:28:08Bob was complaining to me I stopped by the burning barrel by Steve's house.
00:28:13I don't remember that part, but, you know, Bobby's got no reason to lie,
00:28:18and Steve says, well, I never had a fire in the burning barrel.
00:28:23I think Jordy was the last one to burn it in my garbage barrel.
00:28:29Obviously, as a result of the investigation, we learned that that was not true,
00:28:33that on the day in question, October 31st,
00:28:36we had witnesses that saw him burning his burn barrel.
00:28:40Okay, I seen Stephen walking this way,
00:28:43and he threw the plastic bag into there, the burning barrel.
00:28:50You see that it was burning in there?
00:28:52Yes.
00:28:54And, of course, we had the evidence that was found in his burn barrel.
00:28:58I came across a burning barrel, which was in my section of searching.
00:29:02There's like a tire rim on the top of it covering it,
00:29:07and so they take and they remove that and they look in there,
00:29:10and amongst the ashes and stuff,
00:29:12they see what they believe to be the remnants of a cell phone.
00:29:16One of the most compelling pieces of evidence that Making a Murderer
00:29:19conveniently left out was definitely Teresa's electronics,
00:29:23which were found in Avery's burn barrel.
00:29:26I saw a lot of ashes, and I saw a lot of burnt, melted plastic parts.
00:29:32It appeared to be parts of a cell phone
00:29:35that were actually melted inside the burning barrel.
00:29:39That would have been almost impossible for them to explain
00:29:43because Avery was seen burning something in that burn barrel
00:29:47the night Teresa disappeared,
00:29:49and lo and behold, Teresa's burned cell phone, PDA, and camera
00:29:55are all found in that burn barrel.
00:29:58We were able to establish through the boxes at her house,
00:30:01through talking to the cell phone company, etc.,
00:30:04that there is no doubt that those were her items.
00:30:08Some people have complained that you have left things out
00:30:14and that you've shaded this story in some way.
00:30:20After Making a Murderer, the filmmakers were questioned
00:30:23about some of their editing choices by several news outlets.
00:30:26I disagree with those people.
00:30:29I don't think they know as much about the story
00:30:31as they would like to let on.
00:30:34They responded typically the same way,
00:30:36that those questioning them simply misunderstood their intentions
00:30:40or thought that they knew more than they really did.
00:30:43That still doesn't explain why they omitted
00:30:45some of the most important evidence.
00:30:47I had a slowly building anger with the filmmakers
00:30:51the whole time I was kind of learning more about the case
00:30:55and learning about what they left out.
00:30:58I've heard a lot of accusations, why didn't you put this in?
00:31:00It's like, well, because if you look into it, it's actually not true.
00:31:03That's why it's not in there.
00:31:05Different witnesses claimed to have seen a fire in that spot.
00:31:10They had different corroborating accounts,
00:31:13and the victim's electronics were found in Avery's burn barrel
00:31:17that was right yards away from his front door,
00:31:20and that was omitted.
00:31:23Woo!
00:31:26We're not a group, we're a group of individuals with individual views,
00:31:31but my own personal belief is...
00:31:34Do you want me to wait?
00:31:36Yeah, yeah, just...
00:31:40Now!
00:31:46That's awesome, I love it.
00:31:48People always say,
00:31:50hey, you got duped by a documentary.
00:31:53That's just what got the interest.
00:31:56Most of us here have probably read more about the case
00:32:00than people involved in the trial,
00:32:02and you have a hive mind that has added so much.
00:32:05It's amazing to be part of, really.
00:32:07What do we want? Justice!
00:32:09When do we want it? Now!
00:32:11One of the main things for me is some of those stories
00:32:14of how the police say things happened, how they found evidence,
00:32:17it's really questionable.
00:32:19I just watched the episode where they highlighted the key.
00:32:22How could I not think the key was planted?
00:32:25If this key was planted, this has got to be the dumbest jury
00:32:28I've ever seen in my life.
00:32:30The bookshelf was pulled away, turned, searched,
00:32:33and it was reasonable that while it was turned away,
00:32:36it fell into that area.
00:32:38The whole story about the cabinet is, to me,
00:32:41on a very basic level, unbelievable.
00:32:45The key was absolutely the biggest piece of evidence
00:32:48that viewers to this day believe was planted.
00:32:51I'll be the first to admit I wasn't any too gentle.
00:32:55As we were, you know, getting exasperated,
00:32:59I handled it rather roughly,
00:33:04twisting it, shaking it, pulling it.
00:33:07No one gets exacerbated and has to do this rocking and rolling
00:33:12of a cabinet that they've already strip-searched.
00:33:16They've already taken the contents out.
00:33:19Lt. Lenk and Sgt. Colburn were just in Avery's bedroom
00:33:22the prior Saturday night,
00:33:24and they didn't see the key in that cabinet.
00:33:26You didn't see a blue lanyard and a black clasp
00:33:31and the Toyota key in the back of that bookcase, did you?
00:33:35No, sir, I did not.
00:33:37They were also in Avery's trailer on other occasions
00:33:40and still somehow missed it.
00:33:42The key, therefore, became this huge conspiracy theory.
00:33:46This unbelievable story of this key is tucked in behind
00:33:49and it pops out in a way,
00:33:51and they've searched the bedroom six times before.
00:33:54There were seven searches of this trailer,
00:33:57and this key wasn't there.
00:33:59Certainly suspicious.
00:34:01Who would watch that and not think this man was framed?
00:34:04So you're in the house on November 5,
00:34:07November 6, November 7, November 8.
00:34:12True?
00:34:14Yes, sir.
00:34:16The defense just has this narrative,
00:34:18well, this might have happened.
00:34:20This could have happened.
00:34:22Look, James Lenk was there, after all.
00:34:25As it turns out, there's also more to the key story as well.
00:34:29There weren't, in fact, seven searches of that trailer.
00:34:32There had been seven entries into that trailer.
00:34:36Every time that we went into Stephen Avery's residence
00:34:39after Saturday,
00:34:41it was a specific seizure that we were instructed to do.
00:34:48Go in there, do this or seize that,
00:34:51and then get out of there, and that's what we did.
00:34:54This is the Glenfield Model 60 semi-automatic rifle
00:34:58that we took out of Stephen Avery's bedroom.
00:35:02We decided to seize the guns.
00:35:04We decided to seize the vacuum cleaner itself
00:35:07and the carpet cleaner as well as some other items.
00:35:11On that particular entry where they found the key,
00:35:13they were there for pornography that Avery had in that very cabinet.
00:35:17It was specific things that they were looking for.
00:35:19You know, they weren't in there seven times
00:35:21looking for something and they finally found it.
00:35:23They found it in such a way that doesn't match up to evidence.
00:35:25That's the problem. It's how they found it.
00:35:27How are you going to begin to prove that you are being set up?
00:35:33I know it's probably going to be kind of hard with the evidence.
00:35:37How can I say that key was in my house?
00:35:41The only thing I can think of is that cop dropped it there.
00:35:44Andy Colburn, he's a central figure because he gets caught.
00:35:48I mean, personally, in the documentary,
00:35:51you can sort of see he wears a bit of his tension on his face in the court.
00:35:56Did you see this image on the 8th of November?
00:36:01Yes. I was searching the desk here.
00:36:04Deputy Chaharski was sitting on the bed.
00:36:07Lieutenant Link said something to the effect of,
00:36:10ah, there's a key on the floor here.
00:36:13Where was he standing when he said that?
00:36:15He was standing in the doorway.
00:36:17The discovery of the key was something that
00:36:21I don't know how anybody could watch it and not have the reaction I did.
00:36:25You've looked before. You walk out of the room. It's not there.
00:36:28You come back in the room. It is there.
00:36:30Lieutenant Link, let me just ask you, were you surprised to see that key?
00:36:34Yes, sir, I was.
00:36:35Why?
00:36:36It wasn't there before.
00:36:38I was sitting there, and the nightstand would have been to my left hand.
00:36:42The key would have been directly in front of me.
00:36:46The key was right smack dab in front of you,
00:36:50and you didn't see it until Link pointed it out to you.
00:36:54That's correct.
00:36:57I thought, this is definitely strange.
00:36:59How could it happen without anybody there understanding what occurred?
00:37:05When the key is discovered and the way it's presented in the movie,
00:37:09that was the first time that I actually was a little suspicious
00:37:15because it was so obvious.
00:37:17How can it be missed? How did this happen?
00:37:20I was like, damn it. How did I miss that?
00:37:24Like, where the F was that key?
00:37:28One of the theories was it came out of the back of the cabinet.
00:37:31That's what we decided was the most likely.
00:37:34At this point, we didn't think highly of Stephen Avery's porn collection.
00:37:39So the items that we knew we weren't going to take back into evidence,
00:37:43we were cramming them back into the bookcase, not gently.
00:37:49That binder and some of the other things there
00:37:53were kind of stuffed rather forcefully back in there.
00:37:58Deputy Chikarsky said, well, it could have been hidden anywhere in that bookcase,
00:38:04and us taking things out and pushing them back in
00:38:09had to have dislodged it from somewhere.
00:38:13We saw that there was an opening between the back of the cabinet
00:38:17and the side, approximately a half to an inch.
00:38:20We couldn't formulate a rational explanation
00:38:24other than it had to have been somewhere between that frame and that back.
00:38:30So one of us, in the process of cramming stuff in there,
00:38:34had to have bashed that back away from it, and that's how it fell out.
00:38:39It was when I shook it, and it probably fell out.
00:38:41But the problem is, they didn't shake it.
00:38:43Pictures show that they didn't shake that cabinet.
00:38:45The money, some of the coins, the change that was up there
00:38:48appears not to have moved or not to have moved very much.
00:38:52And the theory is that if you were pushing things into the cabinet
00:38:57or if you were being rough with it, that that change would have moved around.
00:39:02I can't explain why I'm cramming stuff into a bookcase
00:39:07and there's change on top of it and it doesn't look like it moved.
00:39:11I can't explain it, okay?
00:39:13I don't recall change even being on there, but apparently there was.
00:39:18You can say, I don't know, all you want.
00:39:20And you might not remember, but you should have put it in a report
00:39:23where you could reference back to it and get the details
00:39:26because somebody's life was on the line.
00:39:28They never articulated to the court,
00:39:31even though this was their defense, that we planted evidence,
00:39:35how we would have come to possess Teresa Hallbach's key.
00:39:40But they insisted that key was planted.
00:39:43It was all inexplicable enough
00:39:46that it didn't seem to have a clear explanation from either side.
00:39:51They both seemed believable.
00:39:53It was just part of the puzzle that the whole case was,
00:39:58which was part of my interest.
00:40:00The key didn't help our case at all.
00:40:03The key made my case harder.
00:40:05I was absolutely angry about what had happened.
00:40:08I knew what difficulties that key was going to cause for my case.
00:40:13More recently, it seems like Ken Kratz had made a comment
00:40:16that when the key was found that it, I'll say the word,
00:40:21screwed up his case because it was found by a Manitowoc investigator.
00:40:27I don't remember Ken ever being irate or really angry
00:40:31about how the key was found.
00:40:34I asked the officers involved in the case, both Karski and Link,
00:40:39that were in the room as well as Colburn,
00:40:42to sit down and write a report.
00:40:44While it was so fresh in their mind,
00:40:46while it was contemporaneous with the finding of the key,
00:40:49I wanted to know what they had each done for the past half an hour.
00:40:53That he was at the scene possibly or whatever, I'm not sure.
00:40:57I have no memory of that.
00:40:59I have no memory of Ken ever saying anything like that.
00:41:02I have no memory of him being out at the scene on that day.
00:41:06Agent Fosbender and Lt. Weeger came down to Stephen Avery's trailer.
00:41:11We showed them the key.
00:41:13They said that key is going to have to go to Madison.
00:41:16We'll see if it fits the ignition of Teresa's vehicle.
00:41:19It was taken down to the crime lab
00:41:22where the vehicle was being processed simultaneous
00:41:24to what we were doing up there,
00:41:26and it turned out that it was for her car.
00:41:30You may be seated.
00:41:36Please explain to the jurors what you did with the key.
00:41:39I put the key into the ignition and turned the ignition.
00:41:43It did turn the ignition, but it did not crank the car.
00:41:48There was no power to the RAV4,
00:41:50and they just thought that the battery was dead.
00:41:53I later learned that that was because
00:41:55I believe the battery had been disconnected.
00:41:57If it was Stephen, why would he disconnect the battery?
00:42:00Maybe there's a GPS connected to the vehicle,
00:42:03or more simply, what about a fob that could be activated,
00:42:07an alarm type thing.
00:42:09But anyways, it was disconnected.
00:42:11For me, the most important part of refuting the key
00:42:16is what was attached to the key.
00:42:19It wasn't just the key that was found,
00:42:21it was the key and a blue fob,
00:42:23a fob when you take the plastic little end
00:42:26and stick it onto a lanyard that you might wear.
00:42:29The smaller part, the part that has a clasp on it,
00:42:32was still attached to the key.
00:42:34And so this blue fob, this canvas-type fob,
00:42:38it was important where the match to that was.
00:42:42Do you recognize that exhibit?
00:42:44Yes, I do.
00:42:45And is that the Air National Guard lanyard
00:42:48that you observed in the RAV4 vehicle?
00:42:52Yes, it is.
00:42:54It was on the match to that.
00:42:56It was in Teresa Hallbach's locked vehicle in Madison.
00:43:01If you would take your pointer
00:43:04and tell us the approximate location of that.
00:43:09It would be the center console right in there.
00:43:12And you're pointing to the area between the two seats.
00:43:15That's correct.
00:43:16And so the lanyard that matched this key fob
00:43:20wasn't even in Manitowoc anymore.
00:43:22It was already being processed at the crime lab.
00:43:25How did these two pieces get apart?
00:43:27What's one doing in the car and one in Stephen's bedroom?
00:43:31If the police did this and planted this,
00:43:34I don't think that's how it would have happened.
00:43:38And were you able to develop a profile
00:43:41from the swabbing of item C, the key to Teresa Hallbach's car?
00:43:47Yes.
00:43:48Ultimately, it was tested for DNA,
00:43:51and Stephen's DNA was on that key.
00:43:55You did not find any DNA of Teresa Hallbach on that key, did you?
00:44:00That's correct.
00:44:02A car key that presumably she handled and used daily, right?
00:44:07Correct.
00:44:09None of her DNA was on that key,
00:44:12yet they have tons of DNA of Stephen on a key.
00:44:16There's something wrong there.
00:44:18The only DNA found on that key was Stephen Avery's.
00:44:23That is patently ridiculous.
00:44:26They made a big deal in making a murder
00:44:28that only his DNA was on the key.
00:44:30But if you research touch DNA,
00:44:32oftentimes the only person's DNA who was recoverable
00:44:35was the last person to handle the key.
00:44:37The last person is going to be the DNA that you pick up.
00:44:41If you don't shed a lot of DNA, then you may not find any at all.
00:44:45Right, and what you found on this key was not a lot of DNA, right?
00:44:49Correct.
00:44:52If we have person number one who is the owner of the key,
00:44:55person number two who does not own the key,
00:45:01but at some point actively bleeds on the key,
00:45:06wipes the bleed off the key,
00:45:11it's not entirely unexpected
00:45:13that you would find the DNA profile of the person
00:45:16who wiped the blood off the key.
00:45:19If you bleed on the key,
00:45:21now you are supplying a large quantity of your own DNA.
00:45:25And even if the other person's DNA is there,
00:45:28you may mask them because now you have actual bodily fluids
00:45:32rather than stray skin cells.
00:45:35If you then wiped it off,
00:45:37now you're physically removing potentially all the DNA that's present.
00:45:42The first person and the second person.
00:45:46And if the second person had possession of that key for four days,
00:45:53one would expect that you're most likely going to find
00:45:56the profile of the person who last possessed the key.
00:45:59And it would not be unusual at all to find no other DNA profile on that key, would it?
00:46:04No, that would be not unusual.
00:46:07More contact, more possibility for DNA being deposited.
00:46:12The key itself was middling in evidential value.
00:46:16The idea that they had to plant the key to tie Avery to the rav
00:46:22when his blood was in the rav for made no sense.
00:46:25They didn't need this key.
00:46:31By Wednesday the 9th, it was time to get Stephen off the street.
00:46:35And so I charged him with possession of a firearm by a felon.
00:46:45Well, the connection is that the firearms that were found in Mr. Avery's bedroom
00:46:54were the result of search warrants obtained
00:46:57in searching for evidence regarding Teresa's disappearance.
00:47:04They said they had to take them because he had firearms in the house.
00:47:09But they're not his. Where he stays, that's that guy's.
00:47:13The house that he's living in is owned from Rowley.
00:47:17He had, I don't know if it was a .22 in the house, in one of the back bedrooms.
00:47:23He was arrested on November 9th for the possession of a firearm charge.
00:47:29Less than a week later, he's charged with murder.
00:47:32And mutilation of a corpse.
00:47:41I bet we do.
00:47:42We will talk and we will hash that out.
00:47:44And that would be great.
00:47:45As long as people are educated in the case
00:47:48and are respectfully willing to discuss their viewpoints, I listen to everybody.
00:47:52Because I would be irresponsible to make a decision or make an opinion
00:47:55regarding this case without hearing everything.
00:47:58And that means listening to people like this guy who think he's guilty.
00:48:02How would you possibly explain all the minute details that would need to go into this
00:48:07in order for Avery to be innocent of this crime? And framed.
00:48:11I think that there were enough people that disliked Stephen Avery
00:48:15that a collaboration of a lot of single, small events
00:48:20led up to him being convicted.
00:48:23How do you explain his blood in the coffin, specifically?
00:48:27That is a stake through the heart, so to speak.
00:48:30Could you describe what this is?
00:48:33This is an overall view of the rear cargo area.
00:48:37Teresa's blood was found in the back cargo area of that RAV4.
00:48:44You can see that the types from the evidence samples
00:48:47are consistent with the types from the pap smear of Teresa Halbach.
00:48:51The blood that was on a plastic portion of that back area
00:48:55had kind of a spaghetti pattern,
00:48:58which was indicative of blood being in hair and a head wound.
00:49:02Would that be consistent with a body with bloody hair
00:49:07being put into the back of this vehicle?
00:49:10Yes, it would.
00:49:12In other areas of the car, Stephen Avery's blood was found.
00:49:16Stephen Avery's blood in the RAV4 was found in six different spots.
00:49:20Did you develop a DNA profile for the blood crust by the center console?
00:49:25Yes.
00:49:26From the front passenger seat?
00:49:28Yes.
00:49:29The CD case?
00:49:30Yes.
00:49:31On the rear passenger door?
00:49:33Yes, I did.
00:49:34On item A6?
00:49:35Yes, I did.
00:49:36On the dashboard by the ignition switch?
00:49:39Yes.
00:49:41All of the types are consistent with each one of the types
00:49:44at each marker from the reference standard of Stephen Avery.
00:49:49How does anyone come up with a reasonable explanation for that?
00:49:52Well, leave it to Stephen Avery, because according to him,
00:49:55this was all a part of the big setup.
00:50:19There's no possible way they could take that blood and plant it in the vehicle
00:50:24without having a fresh source of Avery's blood.
00:50:27I think it'd be very strange if you plant the blood and somebody didn't have a cut.
00:50:32I mean, the blood's got to come somewhere.
00:50:37There has to be a source of his blood.
00:50:40Think about it.
00:50:41There's got to be a place where Mr. Avery's blood came from.
00:50:45During today's news conference,
00:50:47District Attorney Krantz mentioned that there was a wound on Avery's body
00:50:51that may have been the source of the blood found in Halbach's car.
00:50:54Take a look at this video.
00:50:56You can see a cut on the index finger of Avery's right hand.
00:51:00That is the wound that authorities believe may have been where that blood evidence came from.
00:51:06The blood in the car does not tell a clue.
00:51:08It tells the story that he was in that car.
00:51:10It tells your story.
00:51:11It tells everybody's story.
00:51:12It tells your story.
00:51:13Let's go to this then.
00:51:15If it wasn't from active bleeding from his right finger,
00:51:19you tell me how that blood got in that SUV.
00:51:22Your guess is as good as mine.
00:51:23No, my guess is a lot better than yours.
00:51:25It's a theory.
00:51:26It's not a theory.
00:51:27It's not a fact.
00:51:28You didn't see them put that blood in there.
00:51:29You didn't see him drip the blood.
00:51:30He said that he had cut his finger on some tin the week before,
00:51:35but that all week it kept reopening, all week long.
00:51:39Do you see that cut?
00:51:40That cut would not leave one blood drop here,
00:51:42but six inches later, one blood drop there.
00:51:45I mean, if you saw it, it was a huge cut.
00:51:47I mean, it's a huge gash.
00:51:49I actually kind of slipped.
00:51:51I got too comfortable, and I said,
00:51:53That looked like a big-ass cut.
00:51:54Oh, pardon me.
00:51:55I'm sorry.
00:51:56That looked like a huge cut.
00:51:59And I was like, oh, shoot.
00:52:01Like, sorry, I shouldn't have said that.
00:52:13Because I broke my finger open again.
00:52:17That's what he got it from then.
00:52:19And I told the lawyer that.
00:52:22Well, it was cleaned up.
00:52:24That was Thursday night.
00:52:26Avery's told us he thinks officials collected his blood from his bathroom sink.
00:52:31He said an old cut had opened and bled there.
00:52:34How would they have gotten that blood off of your sink?
00:52:37Probably when I went to Menards with my brother Thursday night.
00:52:41That's when I broke it open.
00:52:43Then I went and washed it off.
00:52:46I put a piece of tape around it.
00:52:48But I didn't clean it up.
00:52:51So you went to Menards, and then you came back?
00:52:53Yeah.
00:52:55You told me that it was in the morning you discovered that it was cleaned up.
00:52:59Friday morning when I got up.
00:53:02When you came back from Menards, did you go to the bathroom at all again?
00:53:05No, because I went outside.
00:53:09Okay.
00:53:11I don't use the bathroom too much.
00:53:13If I drink a lot, then yeah, but otherwise I don't.
00:53:16Okay.
00:53:18According to experts, you only have 25 minutes between the blood being deposited and it drying.
00:53:23So somebody would need to wait for Steve and Avery to leave, run into his trailer,
00:53:28scoop up this blood, pipette it, whatever they did,
00:53:31run back out to wherever they had the RAB4 stored, and plant it in six different spots.
00:53:36At one point it looks like it was dripped.
00:53:38At one point it looks like it was smeared.
00:53:40This blood was in different types of patterns that was very indicative of an act of bleeder.
00:53:47At one point we see blood crusts.
00:53:52A7 were some reddish-brown crust that I found here on the floor beside the console.
00:53:59They're described as blood crusts, which are more likely from Steve and Avery,
00:54:03the wound on his finger already having some dried blood on it
00:54:06and having scraped off while Avery was in the RAB4.
00:54:10It wasn't a new cut. It would have had a scab.
00:54:14It was in a state of healing, scabbed, but it didn't appear to be overly old,
00:54:19but it was in a state of healing.
00:54:21Down the road, I guess, but of a particular interest with that
00:54:24is that there was a swipe pattern of blood near the ignition to Teresa's RAB4.
00:54:32Almost looks as if somebody picked up dry blood with a wet Q-tip
00:54:35and smeared it on the ignition switch or in random spots that don't tell the story.
00:54:41The ignition stain kind of looks almost like it could be from a Q-tip.
00:54:46When you take your presumptive test, do you swipe it?
00:54:50Do you make those marks, or is it just a dab?
00:54:53You're not talking about a lot. You're talking about a very minuscule area.
00:54:57And it's basically just going in there, just doing a little, small little,
00:55:01just to get enough of the stain absorbed into the swab.
00:55:04Right, so that's not from the crime lab doing any type of swiping.
00:55:09That ignition stain is how it looked when it came in?
00:55:12No.
00:55:13Okay.
00:55:14Witnesses, the expert lab people, say that's from active bleeding.
00:55:18Okay.
00:55:19Can't be planted there, can't be harvested somewhere else and put there.
00:55:24Did they say it couldn't be done?
00:55:26Or did they just say it was from active bleeding?
00:55:28Absolutely, it could be.
00:55:30There's actually a little drip there, and you can see these little tiny flecks around it
00:55:36or little smudges, right?
00:55:38When you actually look at close-up images of this blood stain,
00:55:42there are smaller specks off to the side of the main swipe.
00:55:46There's a lighter swipe to the side of it.
00:55:49Planting that, how would you recreate that?
00:55:52If I was using a swab that had blood on it,
00:55:55you probably would have to touch that area first, leave it there so you had more,
00:55:59and then lightly pull it that way.
00:56:01Okay.
00:56:02And then here, well, I don't even know.
00:56:05If you actually took her key and put it in that ignition and you turned it,
00:56:10that blood swipe was right in the area where that middle finger would have turned.
00:56:15When you see a swipe, that could be from a bloody elbow, a bloody finger, correct?
00:56:24It's a bloody object that has blood on its surface and is moving across an unstained surface.
00:56:30We don't know what happened here.
00:56:32He could have been pulling the key out of the ignition instead of turning the ignition.
00:56:35He could have been reaching over from the passenger side to grab it.
00:56:39Could he have cut it open when he was under the hood,
00:56:42disconnecting the battery and then grab the keys out?
00:56:45The left side was parked right up adjacent to another junk car,
00:56:50so he could only get in and out of the passenger side.
00:56:53So follow me.
00:56:54He reaches across the passenger seat.
00:56:58Okay.
00:56:59Drip, drip, two drips.
00:57:00Okay, makes sense.
00:57:01CD case.
00:57:02Sure.
00:57:03Drip, reaches across to get to.
00:57:05The CD case was a smudge.
00:57:07I'm just saying.
00:57:09That wasn't really a drop.
00:57:10You can draw a straight line where the blood is.
00:57:12My point is, all you say to me is, I don't know.
00:57:15I'm telling you how it got there.
00:57:16Well, that's what you're telling me your theory.
00:57:18No, I'm telling you the experts said it came from active bleeding.
00:57:22It's the tip of a pinky, and it's about the same as the tip of a swab.
00:57:27You wouldn't necessarily be able to tell the difference
00:57:30between what left the contact or the swipe.
00:57:35Not necessarily.
00:57:37Nobody would be running randomly through the car
00:57:39and making some drips and some smears.
00:57:42It just doesn't seem like how somebody would plant blood.
00:57:46You know, and it was pulled.
00:57:47Or maybe it started here, and there was a lot that was pulled this way.
00:57:52Do you see that being logical?
00:57:54No, I don't.
00:57:55And again, and again, no, I've had a lot of forensic training,
00:57:58but me, if I was a layperson and I wanted to plant evidence,
00:58:01I would put it in very obvious places, like on the steering wheel,
00:58:04on the inside door handle, on the shift knob.
00:58:06Why the hell would you put it there?
00:58:09The pattern we see in the RAV4, something very similar,
00:58:12is found in Avery's own Grand Am, which he also bled in.
00:58:16Some stains on the backside of this gear shift here,
00:58:21and two circular stains, one here and one here.
00:58:25Do the blood stain patterns that you observed in this 1993 Grand Am,
00:58:30are they consistent with the operation of this Grand Am
00:58:33by a person who is actively bleeding?
00:58:36Yes, they are.
00:58:38An active bleeder who bled in his own vehicle
00:58:41and admitted he bled in his own vehicle in random spots
00:58:45could also bleed in another vehicle in random spots.
00:58:49And did you eventually do DNA testing on those blood stains?
00:58:52Yes. The types were consistent with Steve and Avery.
00:59:01How do you explain that there are his blood smudges in the car
00:59:05but not a single fingerprint?
00:59:07There are plenty of possibilities.
00:59:09How many fingerprints did Teresa's wear in that car?
00:59:11I'm not sure.
00:59:16As the reporter showed on December 7th of 2005,
00:59:20some of the items, well, the RAV4 itself,
00:59:23and some items recovered from it that I processed for fingerprints.
00:59:26From what I've experienced,
00:59:28fingerprints inside of a vehicle depends a lot on the surface,
00:59:32because you have a lot of plastic-type, vinyl-type of surfaces
00:59:35that are textured,
00:59:37and depending on your experience and the method you use,
00:59:40you may not be successful.
00:59:43Now, a number of those items that you processed,
00:59:47you actually did find fingerprints suitable for comparison, correct?
00:59:53That's correct.
00:59:55You found suitable prints on the RAV4 itself, right?
00:59:58That's correct.
01:00:00Eight latent lifts.
01:00:02They were on the RAV,
01:00:04on a Sunbelt crunchy granola wrapper,
01:00:07Aquafina water,
01:00:09her plastic CD carrying case,
01:00:12and a partially full bottle of water.
01:00:15Non-porous surfaces that are smooth,
01:00:19usually you can get somewhat predictable results.
01:00:23But you get other areas, you know, that people touch,
01:00:26and then they turn or they grab, you know, you end up smearing.
01:00:29Or the surface is worn, you know, you don't get contact.
01:00:33So unless you've got a greasy or oily print
01:00:36or some other chemicals being extruded from your skin,
01:00:40you may not leave a good print.
01:00:42If you have a really dirty surface and touch it with your fingers
01:00:45and pull your fingers away, you can leave the impressions behind,
01:00:48but you're picking all the dirt up and that's where the impressions are.
01:00:51You're taking it away, you're not putting it down.
01:00:54Any redirect?
01:00:56Just a few questions.
01:00:59Did you have any standards from Teresa Halbach
01:01:02to assist you in making any comparisons?
01:01:04No, I did not.
01:01:06There were some fingerprints found in the RAV4
01:01:08that were most likely Teresa's,
01:01:10but they didn't have her fingerprints to compare to.
01:01:12A lot of people think those might point to the real killer
01:01:15if they could ever be identified.
01:01:17People are assuming that they're another killer,
01:01:19but yet they can't exclude Teresa.
01:01:21They could all be Teresa's prints.
01:01:28In the weeks and months following Making a Murderer,
01:01:31multiple articles started to come out,
01:01:33especially after the initial shock began to wear off.
01:01:37Saying, wait a minute, listen.
01:01:40More and more information came out that indicated
01:01:42there was more to the story than what viewers were shown in the series.
01:01:45One of the biggest pieces was the infamous blood vial.
01:01:51There's more to the story,
01:01:53and the blood vial is what sealed the deal for me.
01:01:57The blood vial obviously was a little disconcerting.
01:02:01The idea that they could have had a source of Stephen's blood
01:02:05in the planting issue, that was awful.
01:02:09I mean, I couldn't believe it.
01:02:11It was another twist in a story that was already, you know, crazy.
01:02:17In regards to the blood vial,
01:02:19this was probably the most egregious manipulation from the movie.
01:02:24Right in the center of the top of the tube
01:02:27is a little tiny hole.
01:02:31I have never seen a single thing that is more dishonest
01:02:34in any documentary than the treatment of that blood vial.
01:02:43Coming up on Convicting a Murderer.
01:02:46They got Brendan down in the police station.
01:02:48What? It's nothing to do with you.
01:02:50The police did not have Brendan Dassey on their radar at all.
01:02:53Kayla brings up that they should talk to her cousin Brendan.
01:02:57They initially went down to that high school because they were worried about him,
01:03:00because his cousin made some comments about him losing weight.
01:03:02She mentioned things like staring off into space and weight loss.
01:03:05She estimated to be about 40 pounds.
01:03:08They thought that maybe he had seen something
01:03:10and he was having trouble dealing with what he had witnessed.
01:03:13You should have said to them, I want my mom in there.
01:03:17You definitely can see how someone like him was easily manipulated.
01:03:22I really feel sorry for Brendan,
01:03:24getting roped into some scheme that Stephen decided he was going to come up with.
01:03:28We did not expect what he was telling us.
01:03:32CONVICTING A MURDERER