Steven Zaillian | Behind The Lens
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00:00Looking at what you've done, and I've seen Italy in a zillion movies, I've never seen it like this.
00:08Yeah. Well, we certainly didn't want to go to the places that you knew in Italy.
00:11Right.
00:12You know, we're not going to go to the Colosseum and places like that.
00:16Although you drive past them.
00:17We do, but there's a dead body in the car.
00:19That's true.
00:23I think I said in the script something like,
00:26not the best time to see the sights, but he drives past the Colosseum.
00:37Did you take a boat ride?
00:39Excuse me?
00:40A boat ride, in a little boat.
00:43Yourself and the Signor Ripley, in Sanremo.
00:47A little escursione around the port.
00:52Yes, we did.
00:55It was not returned.
00:57The boat we rented?
00:58Yes, the same.
00:59Of course we returned it.
01:01The boatkeeper says no.
01:02He's mistaken.
01:03Mistaken.
01:06He's a boatkeeper.
01:08He keeps track of boats.
01:10It's all he does, all day long.
01:12Well, we brought it back.
01:14He give you receipt?
01:16He says he does this routinely.
01:18Yeah, I believe he did.
01:20It would be wonderful if it is on your desk.
01:23I'm sure it's not.
01:25You are sure of this without looking?
01:28Yeah.
01:30Welcome to Behind the Lens.
01:32Today, you certainly know his work.
01:36This is Steve Zalian, who's not only a celebrated screenwriter,
01:41won the Oscar for Schindler's List,
01:43but also a director, a producer.
01:46He does it all.
01:47Welcome to Behind the Lens.
01:48Thank you so much.
01:50Your latest project is one that has been nominated for 13 Emmys,
01:55Ripley.
01:57You wrote all the episodes.
02:00I think it was probably the biggest script ever.
02:04Also directed all of it.
02:09It is extraordinary work, I have to say.
02:12Much acclaimed.
02:14And all the accolades well deserved on this.
02:17But let me just tell you before we start,
02:19some of the movies you're responsible for in terms of screenplays,
02:24Schindler's List and other Oscar nominations for Awakenings,
02:28Gangs of New York, Moneyball, The Irishman,
02:32movies that you also directed, A Civil Action.
02:36Your very first screenplay, I think, was Falcon and the Snowman.
02:39That's right.
02:41All the King's Men you wrote and directed.
02:43On and on and on.
02:45And then a limited series, you won the DGA Award for The Night Of.
02:48Right.
02:49And this is your second limited series, right?
02:51That's right.
02:52Yep.
02:53It's mostly a career that's been spent on the big screen,
02:56with the big screen.
02:57But what do you like about this format?
02:59I mean, I approach it like a movie.
03:01I approach it like a long movie.
03:03When you said the script, even though it's eight of them,
03:06to me it's one.
03:07Yeah.
03:08And then I have to somehow break it up.
03:10But I approach it like a movie and want the people who make it with me
03:16come from movies, too.
03:19And so that's how we approach it.
03:21I mean, I've spent my life doing two-hour stories.
03:23Right.
03:24So it is different, and I feel like I'm still learning.
03:26But it's appealing to me.
03:30And to me, I don't even want to say –
03:33I know it's on Netflix and it was done for Showtime originally,
03:36but to me it's so cinematic.
03:38I mean, it just pops.
03:39This should be seen on a big screen, actually.
03:42Yeah.
03:43Luckily people have some big screens in their places, so that's good.
03:47Yeah, because it's stunning to look at.
03:50Why did you decide to take on Ripley?
03:52Obviously the book came out in 1955, Patricia Highsmith.
03:57René Clamant did Purple Noon, which was loosely based on the book,
04:01with Alain Delon as Tom Ripley.
04:03Then, of course, in 1999 with Matt Damon,
04:07the talented Mr. Ripley, Anthony Minghella.
04:09And now you've taken it in a much different direction
04:13than I've ever seen it done before.
04:16Yeah, I had read the book, I think, back in the 80s,
04:20and I always liked it.
04:22And then the 1999 movie came out, and I thought it was very good.
04:26Twenty years went by, and I was asked to consider it as a series,
04:29and I thought, wow, maybe this is a way to kind of try
04:34and capture the feeling I had when I wrote it.
04:36I mean, the book is probably 300 pages long.
04:39My scripts were 400 pages long.
04:41So it's as long as the book.
04:45And I felt that that was an opportunity to, I mean,
04:48really get into the characters in some detail
04:51and their relationships and the tension that she could create
04:56in her books that goes on and on and on,
04:59which you couldn't really do in a movie.
05:01I mean, I have two sequences that go on for a half an hour
05:04with no dialogue and no score.
05:06And those are inspired from the book.
05:08They're like a whole chapter.
05:10And so I felt to do all of those things was available in the series.
05:17Let me guess what those are.
05:19Chapter 3, whatever you want to call it,
05:24where he's out on the boat and he kills Dickie.
05:28And Episode 5, which is just an extraordinary episode,
05:34almost silent.
05:36And you mentioned details.
05:38You are so detail-focused in this.
05:41It's fascinating to watch the level of detail that you go.
05:45Every movement, every movement.
05:48Is that all scripted in your script without the fact
05:51that there's really not much dialogue there?
05:53It is scripted.
05:55And, I mean, of course it changes when you shoot it,
05:57but in terms of the beats of it, yeah, it's all scripted.
06:01And I like editing.
06:04So I like to draw the audience's attention to what I want
06:09through editing more than camera moves.
06:12And in both of those sequences, that was going on.
06:15And also to show that this guy is not a pro.
06:20He's us.
06:22I mean, he's a guy that doesn't kill people for a living.
06:24He doesn't know how to do it.
06:26So the challenge for him and for us when we were shooting it
06:31and even writing it was, okay, I just have to get this body
06:35over the side of this boat.
06:37How hard can it be?
06:39Right.
06:40It turns out it's really hard.
06:42Very hard.
06:43I've got to ask you, did you have cinematic inspirations?
06:46Like, I could see Hitchcock seeing what you've done
06:49with several episodes here and saying, yeah,
06:53I'm just loving the details.
06:55And how do you get rid of the dead body?
06:57Yeah.
06:58And all of that.
06:59Yeah.
07:00No, I mean, I love Hitchcock.
07:02And I love this idea, like you mentioned in five, that, again,
07:06not being professional, not being premeditated.
07:10We've seen him go up and down these stairs and up and down
07:12this elevator many times.
07:15But he's not thinking about that when it happens.
07:17It's only afterwards he realizes he's on the fourth floor.
07:21There's so many clues.
07:23If you haven't seen it, you've got to see this whole thing.
07:25I'm not trying to give away too many spoilers,
07:27but I've got to point out certain things.
07:29There's so many clues along the way,
07:31the things that will get used, like this glass ashtray
07:34and different touches like that and a cat.
07:38A use of a cat is just spectacular here.
07:43Do you like cats?
07:44Do you put cats in there?
07:45Because this cat's a star after this show.
07:47Yeah.
07:48No, that was a great cat.
07:51Yeah.
07:52I mean, I had this idea when I was writing
07:56and then it developed even more when we were shooting
07:58that the only witnesses are things and animals
08:04that can't testify.
08:06That's right.
08:07And so there are witnesses to his crimes,
08:11but they're paintings and they're cats and they're,
08:15I don't know, people who don't want to testify, clerks.
08:18Right.
08:19All kinds of things.
08:21When you're sitting there as a writer,
08:23is this fun for you to develop this kind of stuff?
08:26Yeah, it is.
08:27I mean, an example of that is the use of Caravaggio.
08:30Yeah, the paintings, yeah.
08:31Yeah, when I first went to Italy,
08:33I discovered Caravaggio in a museum
08:38and was really taken aback by it.
08:40I just thought it was so stunning, his paintings.
08:43And so I wrote a scene in the script.
08:45This was like 40 years ago that this happened.
08:48And I wrote a scene in the script of just him seeing one
08:51and sort of having that same experience that I had.
08:53And then as I kept getting deeper into the episodes,
08:59it developed to such an extent that by the time,
09:03again, spoiler, we get to eight,
09:05Caravaggio comes into the story in a big way.
09:08Yeah, and Andrew Scott's great, very believable
09:11in everything that he does, the details that he's doing,
09:16even though it all seems new to him.
09:18Right.
09:19In his own way.
09:20Yeah, yeah, yeah.
09:21I don't know, I just love him as a character.
09:23I mean, he's a terrible guy, but I love him as a character.
09:25Is it over with this one?
09:27I read somewhere that this could be a continuing series
09:30that you were looking at.
09:31Yeah, well, I mean, we had the rights to all the books.
09:35There's five books.
09:36Yeah.
09:37But at this point, nobody's talking about it.
09:39So would you like to delve more into her world?
09:43Maybe.
09:44I mean, I love her.
09:45I love the books.
09:46All writers, I think, who adapt stuff,
09:49and you have adapted almost everything,
09:51not quite everything that you've done,
09:53but most of them have been adaptations.
09:55How important is that to you to do the author
09:58of the novel proud as well?
10:00That's important to me, and really important in this case,
10:03just because I'm such a fan.
10:05I've been such a fan for such a long time.
10:07Right.
10:08And to recognize what it is about her writing
10:10that's so good and has stood the test of time
10:14and how she created this character,
10:18it was super important to me to respect that.
10:21And the plot itself.
10:23I mean, the movies, the other movies,
10:25actually took liberties with quite a few things.
10:28Right.
10:29And I didn't see any reason to.
10:31I mean, I thought what she'd written was great.
10:33One thing you did brilliantly in it
10:35is shoot it in black and white,
10:37which is very rare in movies.
10:39Of course, Schindler's List was in black and white,
10:42but it's almost unheard of for streamers and television.
10:46Did you have to fight for that?
10:48Yeah.
10:49It was always a question of whether it would make it that way.
10:53But Netflix said, fine.
10:56Great.
10:57We like it.
10:58And all of the artisans, whatever we want to call them,
11:02are nominated for Emmys here so deservedly so,
11:05from the sound team to the film editors
11:08to the special effects to the great cinematographer,
11:12Robert Elswit, who you worked with before.
11:15But this show looks stunning.
11:20And the use of black and white and the levels of it.
11:23Right.
11:24Yeah.
11:25I didn't have a lot of color on the set,
11:27just in case I wasn't able to actually see it through to the end.
11:32But you start working with different shades of black and white
11:36as opposed to color.
11:38And everyone was doing that in every department.
11:42How did you cast this?
11:43Do you write with people in mind?
11:45Or how did you just wind up with Andrew Scott, for instance?
11:49I don't write with people in mind ever.
11:52And in fact, it's always hard for me to cast because of that,
11:56meaning they don't look like an actor that I know,
12:00what I have in my head.
12:02So that's kind of tricky.
12:03I had seen Andrew in a couple of things, only a couple of things.
12:07And I just thought that he had this incredible range, you know,
12:11from playing the priest in Fleabag to Moriarty in Sherlock.
12:17And he had this kind of, I don't know, he could be charming
12:21and he could be rather scary, you know.
12:25And that's what I felt that we needed.
12:28And, you know, he loved it and he was great.
12:32And, you know, every day we were making discoveries with the character.
12:36You know, it was a great process.
12:38And Dakota, who is also nominated for an Emmy,
12:41the very first time in her 25-year career.
12:44Yeah, it's amazing to me.
12:45Isn't that?
12:46Yeah.
12:47I know, and she's done so much.
12:48So I had her here and I said,
12:51I heard that Steve Zellion saw you in Tarantino's
12:56Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.
12:58And she said, I heard that too.
13:00But she played Squeaky Fromme.
13:03What did you see?
13:04Is that true, number one?
13:06Yes, I mean, I had seen her in other things,
13:08but I hadn't seen her for a while.
13:10And when I saw that film, I said, who is that?
13:15Just they're really good.
13:17And I didn't know it was her.
13:19Yeah.
13:20So, I mean, to me at the end of the day, I want the best actor,
13:23you know, even if they may not be the right type.
13:25I mean, she is the right type for this.
13:27She's just such a great actress that, you know,
13:30that's what I was looking for.
13:32She can convey what she needs to really subtly.
13:36And I'm never tired of watching her performance
13:39every day that she worked.
13:41That's what's so important.
13:42In choosing Italy and going all around Italy,
13:45how much time did you personally spend looking
13:49for these perfect locations?
13:51Because you had to have them in your head.
13:53Yes, David Gropin and I started at the end of 2019,
13:57just before COVID.
13:59And we found Atrani, which was the Amalfi Coast town,
14:03and we found some other places.
14:05And then during COVID, we did a lot of research
14:09with photographs and talking to each other
14:12and organizing the photographs I took of our location scouting.
14:17And then in January of 2021,
14:20we went back and spent the next six months scouting
14:24and returning to some places and finding new places.
14:27Wow.
14:28Yeah.
14:29And then I had to spend some time rewriting
14:31because, you know, the locations don't always lay out
14:34the way you expected them to in the writing.
14:38And oftentimes, it was more interesting.
14:40I mean, for instance, like the apartment building.
14:44I never imagined the apartment building
14:46looking laid out like it was.
14:49But you had to have that elevator.
14:51Yes.
14:52I needed an elevator, I needed stairs,
14:54and I needed the landlady's office close to that.
14:58Right.
14:59And ideally, right there.
15:01You know, right there.
15:02And we couldn't find that.
15:03You know, so we found another place
15:06where it was like an adjacent building.
15:09But he still had to walk by.
15:11Because it's so perfect.
15:12It is.
15:13When you look at something like this,
15:14the elevator is such a character.
15:16And that's also a tribute to the sound team.
15:19And all of them, the sound, you can tell.
15:21Even when he had the dead body in his apartment,
15:25I'm hearing, maybe I'm just thinking I'm hearing it,
15:27but I'm hearing that elevator.
15:29And I'm going, you know.
15:30Oh, you're hearing it.
15:31Yeah.
15:32Yeah.
15:33See, the sound work here is astounding.
15:35Yeah.
15:36Larry, the head of the sound team,
15:37and Michael Berry, you know, the mixer,
15:41they both spent a lot of time working on this.
15:44And it was a great challenge.
15:45Because in that apartment building, for instance,
15:48you see one neighbor.
15:50The entire time, you see one neighbor.
15:52So the place is being filled up with sound.
15:55With the elevator, with people opening doors
15:57and talking and walking around.
15:59You need the sense of the people there
16:01in order for it to be dangerous.
16:02Yeah, you hear one person at one point.
16:04Yeah.
16:05And I just thought it would be fun to do that with sound.
16:07And no score.
16:09I mean, not for that.
16:10Score is important, but not for those scenes, in my mind.
16:13So what makes you want to direct?
16:15So you've directed some movies.
16:17And you've obviously written them for other directors.
16:21What's your litmus test?
16:24A lot of times, I don't have a choice.
16:26Meaning, you know, I'm being hired by a director
16:28to write something.
16:29So in those cases, there's no choice involved.
16:35You know, other times, I don't know
16:38whether it holds my interest for as long
16:40as it takes to make something.
16:42You know, something like this that takes five years.
16:45You know, it may not be a story
16:47that's going to hold my interest that long.
16:49Yeah.
16:50And then those that I do, I feel like I really know it
16:55and I can offer something as a director.
16:57That's why I do it.
16:58So I asked you about limited series.
17:00Is this something you want to continue doing?
17:03Or do you want to go back to the two-hour movies?
17:06I'd like to do both.
17:07I'd like to do both.
17:08I mean, it's really whatever comes up
17:11that I get interested in and other people are interested in.
17:15That's the main thing.
17:16Right.
17:17You know, whether it's two hours or eight hours,
17:21you know, I'll deal with it.
17:23But it's always the story and the characters that drive me.
17:27There's so many movies that you've done in two hours.
17:30And is there one, you know, well, some of them,
17:32Hirishman was like three and a half.
17:34Yeah.
17:35But are there some that you said,
17:37damn, that should have been a limited series.
17:39That I shouldn't have done the two-hour.
17:41Oh.
17:42No.
17:43Really?
17:44Okay.
17:45So the ones you've done, Night Of and this are.
17:48I did say that Moneyball could be a play.
17:51Oh, that's interesting.
17:53Yeah.
17:54It could be actually.
17:55Yeah.
17:56I actually wrote a play based on basically one scene,
18:00which is him on the telephone,
18:02making all the trades that he has to make.
18:05Oh, that's cool.
18:06What's it like when you collaborate with somebody like Aaron Sorkin?
18:09Normally when you see my name and somebody else's name on something,
18:13we haven't collaborated, like sat in a room and worked together.
18:16Yeah.
18:17You know, usually we get hired.
18:19Right.
18:20You know.
18:21To rewrite.
18:22Yeah, to rewrite one way or the other.
18:23Yeah.
18:24Have you been rewritten?
18:25Yes, I have been.
18:26Really?
18:27Yeah.
18:28How did that feel?
18:29It depends.
18:30I mean, sometimes it's fine.
18:31I mean, I'm very sensitive when I'm doing it.
18:35I mean, when I'm rewriting after somebody,
18:37I try to be very respectful of what they've done.
18:41I've rewritten a lot of things where I haven't taken credit
18:44because I didn't think I did enough.
18:46Right.
18:47That's interesting.
18:48Yeah.
18:49Do you prefer writing to directing, or do you just like doing it all now?
18:52I don't think I could do directing without having written it.
18:56So if I want to direct, I've got to write it first.
18:59You've got to be the writer on it.
19:00You can't be a director for hire.
19:02I haven't come across anything that I felt like I could do.
19:05Yeah.
19:06Yeah.
19:07Yet.
19:08Yet.
19:09There is still time.
19:11Yeah.
19:12You know, I could talk to you all day about these movies.
19:17Searching for Bobby Fischer was a stunning movie that you did.
19:21Thanks.
19:22And directed as well.
19:24Yeah.
19:25Couldn't have gotten easy to be made, I wouldn't think.
19:27Yeah.
19:28I mean, it would be really hard to get that film made now, I think.
19:31It would be really hard to get any kind of adult drama made.
19:34Yeah.
19:35It would be hard to get Ripley.
19:36Yeah.
19:37Yeah.
19:38Yeah.
19:39With the way the movie studios are now.
19:40Yeah.
19:41I mean, back in those days, I don't know.
19:42Maybe it's still true today to some degree.
19:44It really just takes one person.
19:46I mean, if they're the right person at the studio that likes it.
19:49Yeah.
19:50Schindler's List just celebrated its 30th anniversary.
19:53Right.
19:55And that's a film that lives on complete classic, obviously.
20:01Yeah.
20:02And that must have been a special experience to work on that.
20:05Yeah, it was.
20:06You know, working with Spielberg.
20:08And even before Spielberg, I was working with Scorsese.
20:11And then once Spielberg took it over, we worked very closely together.
20:15You know, that was an instance where, you know, he...
20:22This happens in a lot of films I've worked on.
20:24But this is the one we're talking about and it comes to mind.
20:27Is that he imagined it in a way that I hadn't.
20:30You know, where he brought his view of it in scenes that...
20:36They didn't look like I imagined it.
20:37They looked better than I imagined it.
20:39You know?
20:40And he's so good at, like, finding the point in the scene
20:44and directing it in such a way to make that point.
20:47And that's something that...
20:49It might sound easy, but it's not.
20:51I was interested in that.
20:52I just only recently found out Billy Wilder was dying to do that movie.
20:56I didn't know that.
20:57Yeah.
20:58And it was like Billy Wilder went and found out Spielberg had the rights or something
21:03and I want to make this movie.
21:05And Spielberg had to tell him it's already...
21:08It's rolling.
21:09It's almost going.
21:10And when you think of Billy Wilder...
21:13It's interesting how movies get made.
21:17Well, you've made some great ones.
21:19And one right now, limited series on Netflix,
21:23Ripley, nominated for 13 Emmys.
21:25Congratulations and the best of luck.
21:28We'll see you there.
21:29Thanks.
21:30Thank you so much.
21:31Pleasure.