My Family Mystery Episode 5
My Family Mystery Episode 5
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Short filmTranscript
00:00Every family has a mystery.
00:05Everyone's got their own version, their own story.
00:08I have thought about this my entire life.
00:11And I've asked New Zealanders to bring me theirs.
00:14There's all these different theories.
00:16Starting with a clue.
00:18We found some artifacts.
00:21That opens a can of worms.
00:23We believe my grandmother was a spy.
00:26You haven't given me a lot to work with, I'm going to be honest.
00:30I work with a team of experts.
00:32It's signed in pencils.
00:34Stop it, it is.
00:36Dig into the archives.
00:38So I've got a recording of him.
00:39My grandfather was a court of Negro.
00:42And explore every possible angle.
00:45They were relocating Nazi war criminals.
00:47They were right.
00:49To uncover the hidden story.
00:51Kuro, I finally see you.
00:54And ultimately solve mysteries that cross the globe.
00:58And span generations.
01:09I'm being, I'm trying to be quite mindful of my relatives.
01:13And how they might feel.
01:15Should we find out anything a bit unusual.
01:19In the period of time we're talking, people move very discreetly.
01:25Little bits and pieces have come up over the years.
01:28And it makes us think.
01:30There's so much we don't know.
01:34The items I brought in today.
01:36Do raise a few questions.
01:40I believe there's potentially some.
01:43What have you brought for me?
01:49A photograph.
01:51Wow.
01:53So it's a photograph of my great-grandmother.
01:55Ethel James Wickens.
01:57Very smart woman.
01:59They were indeed.
02:01They were.
02:03They were.
02:05They were.
02:07They were.
02:09They were.
02:11Very smart woman.
02:13They were indeed.
02:15This is her here.
02:17So this is in Lampton Quay just before Willow Street.
02:19Who's the person with her?
02:21I only know her as Lowry.
02:23Now I don't know if that's her first name or her surname.
02:27Sounds like a surname.
02:29Sounds more like a surname.
02:31We know very little about her.
02:33But a little intrigued around that as well.
02:35Well I'm intrigued about what the mystery is.
02:37Okay.
02:39I want to know about my great-grandmother.
02:41What was her life in Wellington?
02:43As a businesswoman.
02:45She left her children
02:47with her parents
02:49and went off to Wellington
02:51to pursue her career
02:53as a concert pianist.
02:55Wow.
02:57It doesn't sound as though she actually
02:59achieved the concert pianist status.
03:01Yeah.
03:03We don't actually know.
03:05She didn't go back to her children?
03:07We know very little about her time in Wellington.
03:09Okay.
03:11So there's some interesting things around her I believe.
03:15Interesting things?
03:17What have you heard?
03:19Okay.
03:21She ran several boarding houses
03:23and there's a little bit of talk around
03:25one of them maybe being a bordello.
03:27Oh, yeah.
03:29Okay.
03:31Is a bordello like a brothel?
03:33Yes.
03:35Oh, well now I'm intrigued.
03:37Yeah.
03:39So quite a colourful character potentially.
03:41Yes.
03:43And I have often wondered
03:45what was their relationship?
03:47What was your great-grandmother's
03:49relationship with Lowry?
03:53I just wonder were they actually
03:55a couple perhaps?
03:57I mean we just don't know anything about her.
03:59Apparently this was
04:01her steadfast person.
04:03And if that was the case
04:05it wouldn't have been broadcast openly.
04:07What year are we talking?
04:09This is probably the 30s.
04:11Right.
04:13And I can see why you want to find this out
04:15because I mean I would as well.
04:17That's a colourful character
04:19that you're a descendant of.
04:21I mean it's just about understanding people's journey
04:23at the end of the day.
04:25It's not putting judgements on them.
04:27Yeah.
04:29Okay, so the mystery is
04:31was your great-grandmother
04:33a closeted lesbian
04:35who ran a brothel?
04:37Yeah.
04:39That's it, that's it.
04:43It's unusual for a woman
04:45to divorce her husband,
04:47leave your children behind
04:49and then go off and do something on your own.
04:51What drove that?
04:53That's not something people did
04:55in those days.
04:57It's also about who am I
04:59because my great-grandmother is a part of me also.
05:03And I'd be quite proud to know.
05:15I'm keen to uncover what I can
05:17about Tracey's enigmatic great-grandmother, Ethel.
05:21The thing is
05:23both parts of this mystery
05:25were the kinds of things people kept under wraps
05:27in the 1930s.
05:29But since a relationship
05:31may have been easier to hide than business dealings
05:33I'm going to start
05:35with this so-called bordello.
05:37And I'm going straight to the source.
05:49It's clear that when Ethel
05:51the hopeful concert pianist
05:53got to Wellington
05:55there were boarding houses.
05:57But there's a question about one house in particular.
05:59335 Willis Street.
06:01It's also known as
06:03Dransfield House.
06:05It's an iconic building
06:07and it already has a well-known
06:09history.
06:11But was it a brothel?
06:17So these are the stacks.
06:19I've made a timid inquiry
06:21with the Wellington City Archives.
06:25It feels a little odd asking about a brothel
06:27at a place of public record.
06:29But they've allowed me to see
06:31what's on file.
06:33So I'll tread carefully and look for clues.
06:35Thousands of records here.
06:37Amongst them
06:39were you able to find anything
06:41on Ethel or 335 Willis Street?
06:43Actually we were.
06:45Luckily Ethel leased the building
06:47off the Wellington City Council so we actually have a record of it.
06:49Really? Yeah.
06:51So I've pulled out
06:53the current clerk's department file
06:55and this is from the city solicitor's office.
06:57As far as we can tell she was leasing the building
06:59from the mid-1930s through to her death
07:01in 1950.
07:03That long? 15 years?
07:05When Ethel died
07:07there was a bit of consternation within the council
07:09about whether the lease should continue
07:11or whether they should do something with the building.
07:13So as part of that
07:15they did an inventory of all of the fittings and furniture
07:17in the building, which is slightly unusual
07:19but it also gives us the name of the owners
07:21of the tenants.
07:23Gosh this is detailed
07:25isn't it?
07:27Who knows what clues are in here?
07:29You know what's interesting?
07:31She came to Wellington
07:33to pursue a career
07:35as a pianist.
07:37That's what Tracy believed but I am not seeing
07:39anywhere here
07:41any evidence of a piano.
07:43And if they're going to
07:45itemise the
07:47dinner wagon
07:49they're not going to itemise the piano.
07:51You would have thought so.
07:53The lease was
07:55managed by Ethel and it was broken up
07:57into five different apartments. So she lived in a room
07:59at the front and then she leased out the five apartments
08:01to different tenants.
08:03Okay, so this is
08:05interesting. We have the surnames
08:07of the tenants.
08:09Yeah, so
08:11there was a flat occupied by
08:13Mrs Edwards,
08:15Mrs Duffy,
08:17upstairs flat was Mrs Young,
08:19Mrs Owen
08:21was at the back flat,
08:23and Mr Scoble was the final
08:25tenant.
08:27So
08:29all but one were women?
08:31Yes.
08:33So
08:35we're talking 1930s, 1940s
08:37Wellington. Yep.
08:39What
08:41do you know
08:43about brothels at that time?
08:47So the usual
08:49question that we get asked here at Archives.
08:51To be honest
08:53I am quite ignorant about brothels, I have
08:55to admit. We knew they existed
08:57in council files
08:59occasionally complaints come up about
09:01people using them or neighbours complaining about
09:03the noise and the comings and goings in the middle of the night.
09:05But in this case
09:07we haven't found anything on the property files
09:09relating to 335 Willow Street.
09:11Hmm.
09:13So in your experience
09:15if this was a brothel or
09:17bordello, there would be a complaint?
09:19Yes. I think
09:21based on the correspondence and the way council
09:23worked, if it had been used like that
09:25someone probably would have complained at some point and we would have
09:27found something. Okay.
09:29That's really interesting.
09:31Yeah. But I don't know,
09:33you could speculate
09:35because this document would have been created
09:37just so they could itemise the different furniture
09:39that was there, so it's not telling us who they were, what they
09:41did, their background, that sort of thing.
09:43So it's interesting, there were five flats
09:45and four of them were occupied by women.
09:47So
09:49who knows if there was a truth to the
09:51rumours.
10:03I'm working on the mystery
10:05of Tracey's great-grandmother,
10:07Ethel. Supposedly
10:09she abandoned her three children
10:11to pursue a career
10:13in Wellington as a concert pianist.
10:15Along the way,
10:17she ran a brothel and formed
10:19a relationship with a mystery woman
10:21known only to us as
10:23Lowry.
10:25A look into the archives didn't
10:27bring up hard proof of a brothel
10:29and come to think of it,
10:31there was nothing about Lowry either.
10:35I'll be honest, I'm pretty naive
10:37about 1940s lesbian
10:39relationships. So I've
10:41come to Otago University
10:43to meet with Chris, a professor
10:45in the Department of Sociology
10:47and Gender Studies.
10:53I'm also quietly
10:55wondering, am I
10:57missing some kind of clue
10:59in the photo of Ethel and Lowry
11:01together?
11:03So generally in terms of women,
11:05no one knew an awful lot.
11:07Partly this was because
11:09sex between women was not illegal.
11:11It had never been illegal in New Zealand.
11:13Also because people didn't
11:15talk as much about women's sexuality
11:17in general as they talked about men's.
11:19Interesting.
11:23Our story is based
11:25around this lovely woman.
11:29This is Tracey's great-grandmother, Ethel.
11:31So this picture
11:33was taken around 1940
11:35and looking
11:37at this picture, is there anything to suggest
11:39that Ethel and
11:41this is Lowry, were
11:43in a lesbian relationship?
11:45It is tantalising.
11:49Street photographers did often
11:51photograph couples as they
11:53walked down the street. So this is a classic
11:55kind of street photographer
11:57capturing two
11:59women who may have been
12:01together.
12:05But
12:07we will never know.
12:09And
12:11in this sense, I guess the other question
12:13is, we won't know whether
12:15Ethel ever identified as
12:17a lesbian or not, even if she lived
12:19a woman-centred life.
12:21And so there's that difference between
12:23having an identity and living
12:25a life, right? And the two things don't
12:27necessarily match up.
12:29She may have seen
12:31the other woman as a special friend,
12:33for instance, but not seen
12:35her as a partner or a lover.
12:37So there are lots of
12:39different ways that she
12:41may have imagined
12:43her own sense of self
12:45or may not.
12:47It's really hard to see,
12:49right, if someone doesn't say.
12:51Way of looking at it, yeah.
12:53It's quite interesting
12:55to have a bit of a think.
12:57We often look back, particularly at the
12:59wartime period, and we
13:01imagine that everyone was straight.
13:03That's the default kind of thing.
13:05So there's something quite powerful
13:07about thinking about
13:09what if the world was more
13:11complicated and diverse and interesting
13:13in a past which is so often
13:15portrayed as very heterosexual.
13:17So I think it's quite complicated
13:19and quite intriguing. Yeah, yeah.
13:21This has
13:23been fascinating. I've learnt so much from you.
13:25And I think what you're saying is
13:27essentially, we won't
13:29know, and that's okay.
13:31But it's okay
13:33for us to be interested too.
13:37Chris has left this part
13:39of the mystery in an intriguing
13:41place. And if it's
13:43ultimately unknowable,
13:45we may just have to be happy with that.
13:47But once again, we're left
13:49without concrete answers.
13:53It's time to hand everything
13:55I know over to genealogist Fiona.
13:57She's managed to find
13:59the unfindable for me before.
14:03I've still got so
14:05many questions.
14:07Who was Larry?
14:09Why did Ethel abandon her kids?
14:11And of course,
14:13what about this brothel?
14:19Is the clue to all this
14:21in one of the tenant's names we found?
14:27A few days later,
14:29Fiona wants to catch up.
14:31I'm hoping this time
14:33we've got some answers.
14:35So we were able
14:37to actually work out who Larry was.
14:39So her
14:41name is Elsie
14:43Margarita Larry, L-A-U-R-I-E.
14:45Oh, okay.
14:47She was
14:49a young widow.
14:51Her husband had died of
14:53the influenza from the 1918
14:55flu and they hadn't been
14:57married that long before he died.
14:59But his death
15:01meant that she was left comfortably
15:03well off.
15:05She moved to Wellington
15:07in the late 1930s
15:09and she was a piano teacher.
15:11Oh, okay.
15:13So there's that piano part coming in.
15:15And she was
15:17living just down the road from Ethel.
15:19She's in Wallis Street as well.
15:21She never remarried, she never had children
15:23and she eventually moved to Auckland
15:25where she died.
15:27And have you found anything on the two
15:29of them having a connection?
15:31Not at this stage.
15:33Okay.
15:35And what about
15:37Ethel's past? Tracy's great-grandmother?
15:39I have actually
15:41found some information about Ethel.
15:43When I looked at the 1928
15:45electoral roll,
15:47she's living in Featherston, as we would
15:49expect, and she's living with her
15:51husband Albert. But what's
15:53also interesting about those electoral rolls
15:55is that her children
15:57are showing in the electoral rolls
15:59in 1928 as well.
16:03What?
16:05So the older children have already
16:07grown up and left the nest as such.
16:09Okay, that wasn't how
16:11I had...
16:13My understanding was
16:15that the kids had all been really little.
16:17Yeah, no, these are adult children.
16:19Because the whole issue was
16:21she's leaving her little children.
16:23Like, who does that? You have to have a good reason.
16:25If two of them
16:27are old enough to vote, essentially,
16:29you're not really leaving your kids,
16:31are you? No. No, this is starting
16:33to sort of turn it around on its head a little bit.
16:35Not nearly as dramatic as leaving
16:37three little kids. Yeah.
16:39Wow. Okay.
16:41But what's really
16:43strange,
16:45when I was looking at this house and I found the photo
16:47of it, I thought, I've seen this
16:49house before.
16:51I know who
16:53one of the tenants was.
16:55Wow. Okay. Which one?
16:57Tell me.
16:59I know about a gentleman called Percy
17:01Scoble.
17:03He was the only gentleman
17:05that was listed there.
17:09There you go. Okay.
17:11So Percy,
17:13he is big in newspapers.
17:17Fiona's uncovered
17:19so much more than I expected.
17:21335 Willis Street. Not only
17:23has she completely flipped
17:25the narrative of Ethel's story.
17:271938. But by pure coincidence,
17:29I had traced Percy
17:31for another client.
17:33She's found the truth about
17:35our alleged brothel.
17:37Wow.
17:39There you go.
17:41How often does this happen for you?
17:43It's really quite
17:45unusual.
17:47I can't wait to tell Tracy
17:49what we've found.
17:59I'm taking Tracy to 335
18:01Willis Street.
18:03It's the boarding house at the centre of the
18:05mystery of her great-grandmother
18:07Ethel. It was here
18:09Ethel supposedly ran a brothel
18:11after abandoning her children
18:13for a concert pianist career
18:15in Wellington.
18:23After a fascinating dip
18:25into the archives and the hard work
18:27of our genealogist,
18:29I have some revelations to share.
18:31So Tracy,
18:33here we are. This property
18:35was your great-grandmother Ethel's
18:37livelihood in the 1930s
18:39and 1940s. That's right.
18:41It gives me a better understanding
18:43of why this story is so important
18:45to you, because this is your history too.
18:47It is indeed, and history
18:49of the generations that will come after
18:51me. Yeah, and to get it right.
18:53Yes. As right as we can.
18:55Yeah. So you came to me
18:57with two main questions.
18:59One was, did Ethel, your
19:01great-grandmother, run this place as a
19:03brothel? And was she
19:05potentially in a relationship with her
19:07friend Lowry? Yeah.
19:09Before we go there,
19:11I want to just go back a little bit.
19:13Before she came to Wellington,
19:15she was in Featherston. Now,
19:17your understanding was that she
19:19left her three young children,
19:21left her husband and came to Wellington, yes?
19:23Yes, that's correct. Okay.
19:25So, Ethel
19:27leaves Featherston in around
19:291929.
19:31Her husband was in financial
19:33trouble with the courts
19:35and her children
19:37were grown up.
19:39Oh.
19:41Okay. They were registered
19:43on the electoral roll at that time.
19:45You had to be 21. Oh, for goodness
19:47sakes. Yeah. And they
19:49were living in Wellington.
19:51Wow. So
19:53it's likely, or it would seem,
19:55that she maybe
19:57followed her kids to Wellington.
19:59Wow. That's so different
20:01from what was shared with
20:03me. Yeah. And
20:05what I've got in my mind.
20:07We're quite surprised that she
20:09had left her children, so it's wonderful to hear
20:11that it's not the case at all. Yes.
20:13I think it is wonderful.
20:15So she comes to Wellington,
20:17establishes this long-standing
20:19friendship with Lowrie.
20:21So her name was Elsie
20:23Lowrie. Yes. She was a widow.
20:25Okay. A young widow.
20:27She never married again.
20:29Didn't have any children.
20:31And Elsie Lowrie was a
20:33piano teacher. Wow.
20:35That's the connection. Yeah.
20:39Now, we have
20:41no evidence that Ethel
20:43was in a lesbian relationship.
20:45We'll never know. Does it matter?
20:47No. Really? Not at all.
20:49I know to you that doesn't
20:51matter. And I guess
20:53particularly at that time,
20:55you know, how someone
20:57identified in regards to
20:59sexuality is a really personal thing.
21:01Absolutely. It looks like
21:03her and Lowrie at least were
21:05just really good mates.
21:07Wow. Isn't that cool? Yeah.
21:13Now, I went to the
21:15council and I got a list
21:17of the inventory of this
21:19property. All the
21:21details you could want. And it actually
21:23itemises who
21:25was in which room. Wow.
21:27They go to such detail. It's fascinating.
21:29There's a Mr. Scoble
21:31who paid three pounds
21:33a week. He rented a room
21:35from the late 1930s to 1960s.
21:37So quite a long time. Yes.
21:39We were able to find out quite a bit
21:41about this Mr. Scoble.
21:43So I want to come
21:45back to the rumour
21:47about this place being a
21:49bordello. And one of the
21:51things that points towards that not
21:53being the case is that
21:55Mr. Scoble was managing
21:57director of the Dominion newspaper.
21:59I didn't know that.
22:01He had a
22:03really high position and it
22:05would be very difficult for the managing
22:07director of the Dominion
22:09to be found out that we're living in a
22:11brothel. Yes. So,
22:13based on the evidence, despite all
22:15the rumours, I think we can
22:17confidently say that your great-grandmother
22:19Ethel was not running
22:21this property as a brothel.
22:23That's good to hear. Yeah.
22:25And I have one final thing
22:27that surprised me, especially
22:29from a woman who supposedly abandoned
22:31her kids. I want to
22:33show you Ethel's will.
22:35Not seen that? No.
22:37I wonder if my mum has even.
22:39As you can see here,
22:41her estate is shared
22:43between her three children
22:45and the amount she left
22:47was the equivalent today of
22:49$450,000.
22:51Wow.
22:53This
22:55is again evidence that she was a
22:57successful businesswoman and
22:59the relationship with her children
23:01was good, that she hadn't lost contact
23:03with them. That's great to hear.
23:05It is. Yeah. I think it would be
23:07wonderful for the family to know that.
23:09It's a big deal, really.
23:11Yeah.
23:13A lot
23:15of people these days want to know more about
23:17who their ancestors were,
23:19where they came from, and being able
23:21to see someone in your
23:23past that has been
23:25courageous and taken risks
23:27and survived. It's like
23:29your armour. It's our DNA.
23:31Yeah.
23:33It's in our DNA. And to be able
23:35to identify
23:37traits within myself
23:39to see where they come from
23:41and those
23:43strengths as a woman.
23:45It's nice to
23:47know where that kaha comes from.
23:49Yeah. And I think that's
23:51kind of the central point of this story
23:53is that your great-grandmother
23:55Ethel, she forged her
23:57own path. She didn't
23:59abandon her children.
24:01You know, she was a successful business
24:03woman and I think you
24:05can be really proud to call yourself
24:07her great-granddaughter. Super proud.
24:09Super proud.
24:13Tracy's gone on to set the
24:15record straight to her family.
24:17They were all delighted
24:19to hear the real story of
24:21Ethel Jane Wickens.
24:29So this is something that's
24:31been a topic of discussion
24:33within our family since
24:35I was quite young.
24:37But the mystery itself
24:39is about 150 years old
24:41and I've always wondered about it.
24:48My father
24:50always felt very uneasy
24:52about this topic.
24:54It is part of our family
24:56history that potentially
24:58has always concerned him.
25:02It's such a horrific
25:04but fascinating story.
25:18My father always felt
25:20very uneasy about this topic.
25:25It's such a horrific
25:27but fascinating story.
25:30Hello. You must be Catherine.
25:32Hi. Yes. Welcome.
25:35What have you got for me?
25:37So
25:44this is a photograph
25:46of my great-grandfather Henry James Hardy and he was born in a little town in
25:55New South Wales in 1871. Very handsome man. Yeah the moustache is really cool.
26:04This was his mother Elizabeth Hardy and she gave birth to him out of wedlock
26:10when she was a teenager and the family even since her day has never known who
26:17the father was. That's part of the mystery. Oh okay. The rest of it is that
26:25two years later after he was born Elizabeth married this man Robert John
26:31Stewart Robertson and who was a notorious criminal. Like the list of his
26:37crimes are endless. One of the crimes was that he was a beggarness multiple times.
26:43At one stage he posed as a surgeon. He faked his medical degrees and he opened
26:51up medical surgery and escalated the deaths of many patients. They were the
27:00words that were used in a court case. In our day we might call him a serial
27:04killer. Oh my goodness Catherine. There have been rumors ever since those days
27:13he may have been the father. So what we'd really like to know once and for all is
27:22if we descended from this criminal. So if he was related to you and you are
27:28essentially a descendant of a serial killer how would you feel? The thing is
27:34I'm hoping that he wasn't our great-great-grandfather. I mean he sounds
27:41like he was an awful person but in a way it's kind of interesting. I kind of think
27:48of Robert John Stewart Robertson as a character from like a Victorian period
27:53drama. Yeah I can see exactly where you're coming from. I mean that's what it
27:57is to me but I'm not the family and it's your family. Well my father has
28:02always feared that it might have been this person but I've always wanted to
28:08know. So what you want me to find out is whether you are the descendant of a
28:16serial killer. Essentially yes. The answer to this mystery might be a bit
28:24disturbing to myself and to other members of the family but I'm hoping
28:29that at least it gives us some answers.
28:43I can understand Catherine's fascination with this Australian colonial era
28:48criminal and it's a strange thing to consider. Would you want to be related to
28:55an historical serial killer? It's interesting looking at what I can find
29:01for Dr. Robertson or sometimes Robinson. Yes he was put on trial for accelerating
29:08the deaths of his patients but he was never actually convicted. But there's no
29:15denying the list of his crimes is long.
29:24And what's also certain is that for just six weeks he was married to Catherine's
29:29great-great-grandmother Elizabeth. Before it was revealed he was already married
29:34and was sent to prison for bigamy never to see her again.
29:40However the biggest question remains is Catherine a descendant of this colourful
29:47character? Elizabeth's son Henry was already two years old when she married
29:52Robert but his father's never been identified. I've asked genealogist
29:58Michelle to have a look. The background of Mr. Robertson, Roberts, pick a name is
30:05varied right and you can trace him because he's done so many interesting
30:10things for the want of a much better word. Yeah there's documents all over the
30:15place and newspaper reports and all sorts of things. So we built a timeline
30:19from all the court cases. We needed to do all sorts of things including looking at
30:25a map. So I just wanted to show you to get some perspective. Where'd you brought a map?
30:28Because it's hard to imagine but this is Sydney right down here. Okay. This is
30:34where Wingham is just inside from Port Macquarie. Elizabeth's up here. It's a
30:41very interesting early pioneer area but it was reasonably isolated. So it wasn't
30:48something you just walked down the street and hopped on a train or a coach
30:51and got there easily. But on top of it our mystery serial killer whatever we
30:57want to call Mr. Robertson. He's out here but there's significant bush country
31:04that you're not going to get across. You can even see today there are no roads
31:08that take you from here to here. You actually have to go right out to the
31:12coast and up. So in terms of time frame he's in Sydney and then out to Goolgong.
31:19I don't see him of coming. He's done a deed down here after conception and gone
31:26back out here. It just doesn't kind of line up. Right. Elizabeth could have
31:30travelled. Really unlikely when you look at the time frame and what her position
31:36and her age was. She's a teenager. Yeah. She's not moving around a lot. Okay.
31:42So geographically there's nothing pointing to the fact that Robert and
31:49Elizabeth were in the same town at the time of Henry Hardy's conception. Yeah
31:57there's no evidence to put it together. Okay but that's not a definitive answer.
32:03No. So we need to look for more evidence and that would be DNA.
32:11Specifically we need DNA from someone we know as a descendant of Robert
32:16Robertson to compare with Catherine's DNA.
32:22So while Michelle hunts for a candidate I want answers to some questions about
32:27Robert Robertson. So I'm going to one of the many scenes of his crimes. Sydney,
32:34Australia.
32:38I've got to admit this guy Robert has captured my imagination like he has
32:49Catherine's. I've invited her to join me in Sydney to learn more about the man
32:54that married her great-great-grandmother and she'll be arriving here soon. But
33:02first the burning question I have is how sure can we be that Robert was a serial
33:08killer? He was a criminal sure but wasn't colonial Australia a lawless time
33:14anyway? I think Dr. Alana Piper will be the one to give me a clue. Something that
33:22struck me was this long list of crimes. I mean it was quite crazy. I'd never seen
33:27anything like it. Certainly yeah I think the colonial conditions allowed for that
33:33sort of adventurism you know that career of fraudster to get by on a bit of charm
33:40and pretense. In a way Robinson is an anomaly in the sort of seriousness of
33:46the crimes that he is facing that they are indictable offences that carried
33:51heavy prison terms. So Robert Robertson went to jail for what we would think of
33:58as lesser crimes these days but some of his more major crimes like assault and
34:03accelerating death and possibly murder he never was incarcerated for them. So
34:10can you explain how that could have been the case? So even back then you know
34:15juries wanted more than circumstantial evidence they want eyewitness accounts
34:21perhaps an accomplice to give testimony against him so in the absence of those
34:27corroboratory forms of evidence it would have been really hard to get a jury to
34:34convict. Knowing Robert Robertson's history do you think it's likely that he
34:42actually committed even more serious crimes that he just wasn't caught for?
34:46Yeah well certainly we know that you know there's a huge amount of like
34:52undetected unreported even in some cases crimes that went on historically as they
34:58do today. The evidence just might not be there victims go undetected or don't
35:04come forward and so particularly given that we know that he was routinely
35:10breaking the law once you have sort of crossed those boundaries you know it
35:14gets easier to cross it again and again so you have to wonder.
35:23So chances are Dr. Robertson's criminal record was just the tip of the iceberg
35:30maybe Catherine's great-great-grandmother was lucky to only fall victim to one of
35:35his milder crimes but as for whether Catherine's genetically connected well
35:41she's just arrived in Sydney and as I'm off to meet her Michelle texts me.
35:52Looks like I'm about to get the answer to Catherine's mystery.
36:06Catherine came to me wanting to know whether her great-great-grandfather was
36:11Australian criminal and alleged serial killer Robert Robertson. The journey to
36:18find out has taken us both to Sydney this is where Robert spent many years in
36:24prison. Catherine's own father feared being a
36:27descendant of Robert but Catherine's always felt a strong connection to the
36:32criminal who married her great-great-grandmother. I'm about to
36:36reveal the fresh DNA evidence that solves this mystery but first I want to
36:41give Catherine an insight into the harsher parts of Roberts life. So you are
36:49probably wondering why we're here why I brought you to Cockatoo Island. I wanted
36:55to show you the kind of conditions that Robert Robertson would have endured when
36:59he was in jail in the 1800s and this place was a jail between 1839 and 1869. I
37:07have a guide that can show us around yeah. Are you keen to have a look? Yeah. Okay let's go.
37:21Wow. This is where the male convict slept at night time. We believe there were
37:28between 80 and 90 men in this small area. They had two levels of sleeping
37:34planks and they were in here under cover of darkness. Buckets all the way down the
37:38centre to use as a toilet. It absolutely stank in here. In the winter it was cold
37:44it was wet it was damp and it was very very substandard but really unhumane.
37:52So what we've got here are two solitary confinement pits one behind the other
38:00where convicts would be put for up to 28 days for trying to escape for brawling
38:05meant to break your spirit meant to make you do the right thing and behave
38:10yourself. This was absolutely horrendous. It sounds terrible and it's interesting
38:17because looking through Robert Robertson's criminal history it looks
38:21like he spent time in solitary confinement. Wow. At a jail in Sydney at
38:26the same time so that's the kind of conditions. Yeah it would have been awful.
38:33Near the end of his turbulent life Robert was committed to a psychiatric
38:38institution in Parramatta. It was there aged 75 that he died. It wasn't a noble
38:46end to a story but then Robert's life wasn't so noble to begin with. But
38:53regardless he's a character that will always be linked to Catherine's
38:57ancestors. She's just never known whether that link went as far as to be genetic
39:03until now. So that was Cockatoo Island quite an experience tell me what you're
39:09feeling. I feel a bit emotional about it. It's a really important story to you
39:17isn't it? I can see that. Well it's just always been a story in our family we've
39:22never really known who my grandfather's grandfather was and it was discussed a
39:27lot when I was a child but it wasn't until I was an adult that I found out
39:31about Robert Robertson and I don't really have any answers and that's why I
39:36was wanting to know. It's been fascinating researching this guy. What we
39:43wanted to establish was whether your great-great-grandmother Elizabeth Hardy
39:47and Robert Robertson were in the same area at the approximate time that Henry
39:53your great-grandfather was conceived. Yes. What it looks like is that they were
39:59actually in towns 450 miles apart. You know in these days that's a flight but
40:07there wasn't even a road connecting those wasn't even sort of a horse and
40:11carriage situation. Of course that's not definitive so we went to DNA and you
40:18kindly gave your DNA. Yeah. Robert Robertson is of Belgian descent. Right. So
40:25you'd expect to see certain characteristics in a DNA profile. Yeah. We
40:30were able to find a woman called Carolyn who definitely is a descendant of
40:34Robert Robertson and we were able to compare your DNA. She has Germanic in her
40:43profile so we would expect to see the same in yours. Yours is England, bit of
40:49Irish, bit of Scottish. Welsh. Yeah. Not the Germanic. Yeah. So what I'm saying I
40:58guess is that I can pretty definitively say that you are not biologically
41:04connected to Robert Robertson. I thought about how I'd feel if he was or if he
41:13wasn't and honestly I still can't come to grips with how I feel.
41:22Even though it was always hoped that we weren't descended from him and my father
41:28particularly was hoping that we weren't descended from him, for some reason I've
41:36become in a way attached to his story. Yeah and therefore attached to him.
41:42Yeah. You can look back at history and and look at reasons why people were the
41:50way they were, you know. As you say coming to a place like this, getting a feeling
41:56of what these people went through, it gives you a little bit more empathy. So I
42:02am pleased in a way and I suppose it's just always going to be a mystery. We're
42:07just never going to know who my ancestor was. It might be possible to
42:13find that out. It would take a lot more work and tests. One thing I can tell you
42:18is you are not biologically related to a serial killer and I think, Catherine,
42:25your dad would be really pleased to hear that, wouldn't he? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's just why I've been so
42:32fascinated with the whole thing is just because it's unbelievable and yet it was
42:39real life. It was real life. Yeah. It's there and black and white. Yeah.
42:46Catherine, thank you for bringing me this fascinating story of Robert John Stuart
42:51Robertson. As someone who loves true crime, this has been the most amazing
42:57ride. Yeah, I've absolutely loved it. It's been wonderful. Thank you.
43:07The truth of this true crime tale was indeed a relief for Catherine's family
43:13but even with this chapter closed, the story of Dr. Robert Robertson is one
43:18Catherine still can't help but come back to every now and then. Next time.
43:24Whoa. This is a story, isn't it? Our most intriguing mystery yet. They were
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43:37the time when the blackmailing started. A mother's darkest secrets. If ever you
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43:48How can a mother not love her little girl?