Quibi’s epic fall and the future of books | The Vergecast
We’re once again trying out a couple of our favorite new show formats. In Version History, we talk through the whole story of Quibi, from its early days as NewTV to its extremely ill-timed launch to its ultimate demise. Next, we try out our as-yet-untitled debate show. The Verge’s Kevin Nguyen and Alex Cranz take on a surprisingly contentious topic: is the future of books print or digital? Later, producer Andru Marino answers a question from The Vergecast Hotline about a very unusual shopping situation for MP3 players.
Transcript
00:00:00- Welcome to "The Vergecast,"
00:00:01the flagship podcast
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hearing this on Tuesday
I am probably at
in Upstate Connecticut
I'm probably on an inner tube in a lake
as everyone should be at
some point this summer.
00:00:23Anyway, while I'm gone,
00:00:25we've been doing this
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trying out some new formats
and structures for the show
and we're gonna do
something similar today.
00:00:36We have two more versions
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at it the second time.
Maybe you'd be more familiar.
We'd love to hear your thoughts.
We're gonna try it again.
This time we're gonna talk about Roku
and we're gonna talk about
eBooks, both super fun,
00:00:54very excited for you to hear them both.
00:00:55And as I mentioned before,
00:00:57we really, really wanna
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to hear more of them
about whether you hope we
never, ever do them again,
00:01:07all of it.
00:01:08We've been experimenting with this stuff.
00:01:09We always like trying new
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covering in particular
if you have ideas for what you wanna see
us do on either of those shows
and segments
Vergecast@theverge.comthe hotline, 866-Verge-11.
00:01:31We wanna hear everything.
00:01:32All right, two more pilots, let's go.
00:01:34This is "The Vergecast,"
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calling "Version History."
So if you didn't listen last week
basically the thing
we've been thinking about for a long time
is what a tech rewatch
show might look like.
00:01:53If you've ever listened to those shows,
00:01:54like "Office Ladies,"
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who were on the show go
through the show episode by episode
and talk about the
behind-the-scenes stories,
00:02:09and what they remember from filming,
00:02:10and what they think
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moments in tech history.
And we've been trying to
figure out what is a fun way
00:02:31to go back through a lot of that stuff,
00:02:33talk about where we were, how
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together a show based
on all of the different stuff
that we liked from all the
other rewatch podcasts.
00:02:47And like I said, we've been
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that either is more important
or less important to the world depending
on how you look at it.
That's rightto talk about Quibi.
00:03:05(gentle music)
00:03:08Big stories told in six to 10
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hated it
We'll figure it out when I get back.
We're gonna do this againthis time with what I would say
00:03:30is everyone's favorite
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a brief history lesson.
This one's gonna be fun
because it's very recent,
00:03:40and we all were journalists
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questions we're gonna answer
about likeits legacy in the future.
00:03:56And then at the end, we're gonna decide
00:03:57if it belongs in the "Version
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should do the Quibi history.
This is near and dear to your heart
in a way that I find very
mysterious and strange.
00:04:11- It's true.
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which was major studio.
And he wanted to get in on streaming
because at this point
we know that NBC's got
something in the works.
00:04:38We know Disney's got
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I wanna do that too."
But he knows that it can't
just be any streaming service.
00:04:55He knows that he needs
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he's doing good things
but he still has to make a product
and release a product (laughing).
- Can I tell a story about this time?
- Yes- Please.
00:05:28- So I went to a fancy, like dinner
00:05:31a code conference around this time,
00:05:33and I was sitting in just the
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reaction was like
(Alex laughing)
And I think I might've said"You know YouTube exists."
00:05:53- Continue on.
00:05:55- It's true.
00:05:56- Yeah. YouTube exists a useful frame
00:05:57for all of what's about to come.
00:05:59- But you know, YouTube
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like Hollywood
Like that was his big deal
was he knew Hollywood in a way
00:06:09that Netflix and YouTube
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a Hollywood exec
- HP and eBay. Really
two Hollywoody companies.
00:06:25- Yeah. Yeah.
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got what Steven Spielberg
they've got Catherine Hardwick
they've got all these
big actors and actresses.
00:07:10Everybody's working on Quibi stuff.
00:07:12And there's, there's some,
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in the energy for you?
- Yes.
- So before the CS unveil,
00:07:25which I know Alex will talk about,
00:07:26they had briefings Hollywood,
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here's one reporter."
They demanded everyone.
They're like- Seriously?
00:07:39- Like Casey Newton,
00:07:40who was writing the interface
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and this much money."
And I will never forgethe came out of the briefing
00:08:00and he was like, the only thing
00:08:02I got was that they are spending
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from other people. No
That's not what we're doing.
We've taken the fanciest
00:08:18directors from Hollywood
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ads. They're like
- It was a beautiful moment.
- Yeah. They very proudly talked
about how they were spending
Game of Thrones level money
00:08:33on like,
00:08:34everything that they were doing.
00:08:35And it's like, well, no,
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- Oh my God. It was very good.
The whole thing was incredible.
- Yeah.
- But that was before CS,
00:08:49like before C they were
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they'd be like
- And I kind of
We'll get into itit makes sense. Right?
00:09:02YouTube is, is basically cable access tv.
00:09:05And they're like, what if we put actual,
00:09:08not like actual producers
00:09:10and people who know how
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Maybe 10 years too late.
Anyway
They have this big event at CES
we all got invited. We all
went and did the briefings.
00:09:26I sat there with Meg Whitman,
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normal way they get prepped.
She just power move. Just left
it sitting right between us.
00:09:43So I could see it. Oh my God.
00:09:45- That's so good.
00:09:46- Jeffrey Katzenberg
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briefing with the CTO
and the CPO
and the Chief Technology officer.
And one meeting with like
a bunch of the actors
00:10:04and filmmakers.
00:10:05And Catherine Hardrick was
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Katzenberg
we gotta start over.
Yeah.
- You just know at that
moment it was gonna be a bomb.
00:10:35- Yeah. I don't You can
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in my interview with him.
- Oh yeah. With us it was a full
I've encountered Katzenberg several times.
I actually just did an
event about digital,
00:10:58like digital parenting at one
00:10:59of the companies he's
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man thinks his energy
can overcome reality.
It was just like one of the
most that we just started
00:11:16our whole story over
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thing is probably too late.
It's very specific.
It's doing kind of a
weird thing that seems
00:11:40to be running against
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Katzenberg doesn't screw up.
He will do it.
- Yeah. Don't bet against Jeffrey.
Yeah. Over and over and over.
- Yeah. Everybody assumed
he was gonna do it
00:11:55and they bring it out and they knew they,
00:11:58it was clear that they knew content alone
00:12:00wasn't gonna win this.
00:12:01Right. They knew we are late to this.
00:12:03We have a lot of content, but
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was Quibi versus the World.
That's where weout, we were like, okay,
00:12:16this is actually what we're hearing.
00:12:17- They did one thing,
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see a stream depending
on how you turned your phone.
So you'd either see it in profile
or you'd see it in landscape.
Those are the only two ways to watch it.
And it would change depending on it.
And some of the filmmakers
were really
Other filmmakers gave two shits
and didn't do anything with the format
but most of them did do it.
And it was like
of impressive technology.
The technology itself was impressive.
Then they finally launched it during COVID
when everyone was at their home.
- Can I just remind
everyone that the rotate
00:12:58your phone technology.
00:12:59- Turntable or what was it called?
00:13:00- Turnstyle.
00:13:01- It was called Trynstile with a y. Yep.
00:13:04Like wild style for the Lego.
00:13:07(both laugh)
00:13:09- Yeah.
00:13:10But wait, but Cranz,
00:13:11you just glossed over a
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was really
But alsoprobably a lot of us interacted
00:13:36with at that CES then started interacting
00:13:39with a whole lot of other people.
00:13:41And we had a worldwide pandemic.
00:13:43And this device, you know, Quibi was made
00:13:46to be for you on the go.
00:13:48It was the whole pitch was, yeah,
00:13:49you watch a little bit
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already late
with ads 799 without
unless you were a T-Mobile customer
in which case you got it
for free for a brief period
00:14:19of time, but you had to
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that everyone was at home
and he'd made a product
for watching on the train.
00:14:37- Yeah. And so then he
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phone to get the scenes.
And that was a real challenge.
And then he was doing
some really wild stuff
00:14:55to get people in the office
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really just using the force
of being Jeffrey Katzenberg to get people
to try to make this succeed.
He was likeis totally fine. Yeah.
00:15:15We're just going through a
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that we're gonna release
so that people can
watch it in their homes.
00:15:24It's gonna be fine. It's gonna
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piece of Quibi history
that you missed so far
- Yes.
- Is the Superb Bowl commercial.
This is just like
Can can I play you the entirety
of the Superbowl Commercial?
Right now I would like to play it for you.
(commotion)
- Where's the car
- I'll be there in a Quibi.
- Good.
A Quibi less than 10 minutes.
(chuckles)
Meg. Daddy got fun. Thanks Daddy. Got fun.
Quick bites
(sirens)
- Quibi.
- That's it. That's the
whole Super Bowl Commercial.
00:16:17Nowhere in there does it say
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a Quibi is a quick bite
and a quick bite is less than 10 minutes.
And that is apparently very important.
That was a Super Bowl Commercial.
What a time.
I made the joke about TikTok earlier.
But it is also true that the thing
that happened in the pandemic
was people just started
00:16:41opening TikTok all day, all
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video on their phone.
We should make it super easy.
The videos should ideally
be as short as possible.
00:17:01- Yeah. The the difference is
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at a $100 a minute.
We are making content
at a $100,000 a minute.
00:17:14And he says that like, it's a, yeah.
00:17:16This was his winning
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because a lot of the filmmakers
and stuff felt that this
was him trying to get around
00:17:27by breaking up the films
00:17:28and all the footage
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than everybody else.
Weird. Just weird and weird time.
I'm just saying the money in
money out was like a real,
00:17:46- The way that Quibi ended
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from the movie Trolls?
- Yes.
- Called Get Back Up Again.
00:18:01And he's like, this will
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streaming service in America.
Thank you. Trolls.
No
before we get to the actual end
where their technical ideas
and their user interface
00:18:20and user behavior ideas were
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lot of video on their phones
and we should make it
shorter and more vertical.
00:18:32And maybe they needed to
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wrong about the mathematics
of those videos.
And who should make them
and why people would watch
00:18:47them and all of that stuff.
00:18:49- Yeah. Wait, can I just
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you off in the for You tab
which uses a vertical card interface.
It feels more Instagram
and less Netflix carousel.
00:19:03You'll see a show's title metadata,
00:19:04and if you stay on one
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done a lot of this stuff.
So like the idea that vertical video
that Autoplay was gonna be a
thing was like, not surprising,
00:19:25but to its credit,
00:19:27Quibi was like, yeah, this is the thing.
00:19:30We're not gonna like go 90
00:19:32and tell everybody that the solution
00:19:34is to flip your phone over. Like-
00:19:36- Except they did, like they did it.
00:19:38They did it. They did a little bit.
00:19:40- They did do that.
00:19:41They did say that they
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of Hollywood executives
and Meg Whitman to like correctly identify
how entertainment would change
because of like product changes was wild.
Like they nailed it and then
they got completely blown
00:20:05up by not only pandemic,
00:20:07but their own sense that they
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all of the streaming services
were doing at that time
Likea ton of money into,
00:20:24to making their own services.
00:20:26So Quibi was doing the exact
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company to be at the start
of something new and I'll
get everybody else involved.
00:20:45And then the pandemic just
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big questions I want to
I was gonna get tolet's just do this now.
00:21:04- Yeah.
00:21:05- Is there an alternate
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noble way of ending a thing.
- Oh
- That has raised us.
He just gave the money
back to shareholders.
00:21:25She was like, I'm not burning
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did fully blame the pandemic.
I do feel like opening the
multiverse door around COVID
00:21:34is just a rough, a rough game to play.
00:21:38- Fair.
00:21:40- Many different decisions
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of the pandemic
Likeit's fortune changed,
00:21:50it's that it's entire story
00:21:52is actually a pandemic story.
00:21:54So I'll just go back to what
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can have a lot
of feelings about the
fact that these services
00:22:08do not pay very high rates.
00:22:10I think a lot of people
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get people to pay for quality.
Very noble.
I think no matter whatyou get six more months.
00:22:24Like Cranz is saying, they
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is
as quickly minus the pandemic
is the multiverse door
00:22:40that is just like hard to figure out,
00:22:42but hey, there's an app on
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hard to win that game.
- Right? And I think even
even then there was an understanding
that they were competing
against infinite content,
00:22:58but the belief was that
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actually always win.
- I don't even know if
better usually wins.
00:23:09- Quibi wasn't better.
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a bunch of us had it.
- We no- It didn't happen.
00:23:22Can we pause on that really fast?
00:23:23I went back and was
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content up into three categories.
There was the Spotlightsthere were Quibi,
00:23:44and then there was something
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none of this was incorrect.
You got your Halo things
you got the stuff
everybody watches every day
00:23:53that makes your product sticky.
00:23:54And then you got whatever weird garbage
00:23:56in the middle to find.
00:23:57That's how you program anything.
00:23:59So Polygon had a new show about games
00:24:01and then they wanted to
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about where I don't live
on the business side of our company
and I don't tell them what to do
and they can't tell me what to do.
Boy were we just like staring at each
other through bulletproof glass.
Likewanna waste time on this.
00:24:23And that was where that ended basically.
00:24:25- Did you ever sit
00:24:26in a meeting about what the
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like you are gonna
we give this away for free on our website.
Why would anybody watch this on Quibi?
Whowhere it ended for me.
00:24:48- Yeah.
00:24:49- Can I read you a just the names
00:24:50of a few shows that did exist?
00:24:52- Yeah.
00:24:53- And these, I actually am lifting
00:24:54directly from the CES presentation.
00:24:55So this is not just shows
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one was called "Beauty."
Sure. There was one called
"50 States of Fright"
00:25:09that was gonna be a whole anthology series
00:25:12that was a horror thing
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just called "Action Scene."
- Yeah.
- It's just called "Action Scene."
The only one I remember
watching was the one with one
00:25:24of "The Hemsworth's" where he was being
00:25:26hunted by Christophe Waltz.
00:25:27That's the only one I
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lot of it. Trying to like-
- Yeaha bunch of it, right?
00:25:42- Yeah. Roku bought a bunch of it.
00:25:43And I think it is telling that
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shows just weren't very good.
- Yeah. Which by the way
we've talked about this a bunch
so I'll just blow
through the review stuff.
00:25:58That thing is I would
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technology here for a 1.0 app.
It's actually pretty good.
A lot of people agreed with
what Chris said about the,
00:26:07the tab people liked Turnstyle. Fun fact.
00:26:09- Yeah, it's neat.
00:26:11- But overwhelmingly it's like,
00:26:12there's nothing here that is
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and it just didn't have it.
- No Mandalorian.
- Right. And the interesting
thing about that,
00:26:28going back to what Cranz
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everyone's like C list work.
- Yes.
- Yeah.
00:26:46- Like, here what's the,
00:26:47what's the least risky thing
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750
a deal and took the money
but just like very obviously
they were putting up their like
00:27:00C content
00:27:01- Again, the golden arm.
00:27:03Just go Google Quibi Golden
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shows that you hold onto
and you're likethat was a banger
00:27:15and nobody knows.
00:27:16- I vaguely remember there
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Spielberg one ever came out.
That was the one that was like
so much about before Quibi was-
- That was the one you
could only watch at night.
00:27:32- Yeah.
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these different filmmakers
actually really engage with
the technology in a way
00:27:46they haven't with other
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they did with Quibi.
But then none of it was successful
and they never tried it again.
- That sounds about right. Alright
before we get outta here
let's roll through the big questions
that we do here on version history.
What was the best thing about this thing?
- Turnstyle. Legit.
It wasa fascinating technology.
00:28:11- I kind of agree. Like
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cool. You just look at it
and you're likedon't know if it's gonna work.
00:28:21- Yeah. Like, did it accomplish
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Turnstyle was awesome.
That was the only part of it.
- You shouldread the Turnstyle patent.
00:28:36They had very complicated ideas about-
00:28:38- Yeah.
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machine
that's a very impressive
or like a giantknow those like videos
00:28:50where people have set up
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soothingly think about this.
- Nilay what do you think was
the best thing about Quibi?
00:29:06- Going back to what I
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in like a particular way.
And likeexplosive amount of money
00:29:20and new ideas
00:29:21and like, we're gonna blow it up in the,
00:29:24we can do it with just
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that you can have a new idea.
And what contextually
through the pandemic
was like not a choice.
00:29:41And so like, there's that of it,
00:29:43but at the same time, like, do you,
00:29:45I don't even remember
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all the videos are vertical."
- Yeah.
- But they are reacting
to Instagram and TikTok.
00:30:02Like they didn't steal Quibi's idea.
00:30:04- Can you imagine people just getting up
00:30:06and flipping their TV?
00:30:07Like, oh, I wonder what this
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841
842
play vertical video on it.
I have not bought such mountI've stared at it many,
00:30:19many times and then tried
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around on my phone.
- We're staging an intervention
if you ever have reached
00:30:30that place, like emotionally.
00:30:31- Emotionally like let's do it.
00:30:32But like, we're many generations
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have some bluster here
and that would be a counterbalance
and it all got blown up for all
the reasons it got blown up.
00:30:49And you just haven't seen that.
00:30:51You've just sort of seen Hollywood like,
00:30:53like fall over instead.
00:30:55And I would like to see
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said many times on this show
one of my strongest held beliefs
is that you cannot
overcome a terrible name.
00:31:11Like I honestly it's sounds like a bit,
00:31:13I believe it so sincerely.
00:31:15- I don't know man Ipad.
00:31:17- It's fine.
00:31:18You can turn like a name into a good name.
00:31:20You cannot turn a terrible name.
00:31:21- Okay, I see what you mean.
00:31:22- You can't survive like a
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881
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tried to make it that unit
of time in the Quibi like awful.
- Like it was just
they were trying way too
hard to make Quibi happen.
00:31:53- Do you think that, do you
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her and been like
help us fix this name."
- But I think ifhad come out being like,
00:32:07you know, it's like the
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900
Bowl ad where they're like
I'll be there in a TikTok
- Yeah
- Yeah. Maybe the Super
Bowl ad was the worst thing.
00:32:20- But yeah, actually take it back.
00:32:21Super Bowl ad was the worst thing.
00:32:23It really just put it all together.
00:32:25- If you could go back
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couldn't even screenshot it.
- Yeah.
- And at one point they were like
oh we know people wanna screenshot Quibi.
We're gonna build this
like convoluted system
00:32:51where we pre-select screens
00:32:53and clips for you to share in the,
00:32:55and it's like, no, to
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was gonna be my answer too
is like embrace the other parts of TikTok.
Right. Which are likelet people, I think you,
00:33:12you probably can't like let people stitch
00:33:14and duet stuff like
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people share screenshots like
they had done so many different things.
Even just with like the way
they've licensed content
00:33:27that it's like just blow up
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Golden arm gets a bad rap.
There's some
and you knownot gonna burn the calories
00:33:50to get it out, but it's like
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became a different kind of joke.
- The actress was like
We were like making fun of people obsessed
with like tech and stuff.
And instead everybody was like
you got a dumb golden arm."
I'm gonna laugh at the
golden arm. Dumb. It's dumb.
00:34:10- I don't, again, it's in there somewhere.
00:34:12And I, you know, someone
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could you reboot it in 2024?
Could Quibi post Pandemic post TikTok?
Could we do Quibi now?
- Yeahbe friends episodes cut up
00:34:29and put on there but like paid for instead
00:34:31of Shadow put up on TikTok.
00:34:34- So it's just TikTok minus the impending
00:34:36copyright lawsuits basically.
00:34:37- Yeah, exactly.
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wanna be a reflexive no
it would be really hard
to raise the money now.
00:34:52Quibi was a true Zap zero
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pay money for it seems hard.
Do you think the thesis
that somebody at some point
will do a really good high-end
00:35:14mostly vertical streaming service is real?
00:35:17Like can Holly, will somebody
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invest the money in that?
- You know what Ivideo, I was reading a,
00:35:39a story about fashion
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1001
1002
1003
1004
to no
I try
that I really tried and it's did try.
It's still not good a good
idea. YouTube still exists.
00:36:10Yeah, I don't know.
00:36:11Part of me wonder, I mean like YouTube
00:36:13and TikTok are forever trying to find ways
00:36:16to get fancy content
00:36:17and fancy content is
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1016
ground that makes sense
but maybe it's just the
two ends of the spectrum.
00:36:31And actually every time you try
00:36:32to cross the two it doesn't work.
00:36:35- Yeah. The economics
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1022
1023
people making stuff already
for YouTube not getting contracts
and then it's likenobody wants to touch that."
00:36:50Okay,
00:36:51well then let me ask the
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gonna distribute it?
You're gonna distribute it on phones only-
- On Netflix TVs.
- People there's no way
anyone's gonna watch
00:37:07a vertical video on their TV.
00:37:09- But what if you have
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streaming service called that?
That's where it's gonna appear.
- It was called Milk Video.
(both laugh)
- Alright
Does Quibi belong in the version
history Hall of Fame? No.
00:37:31No, no, no, no, no, no.
00:37:34- Feel strong reaction
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good content Hall of fame.
Not itself
but the content about
it was a terrific year.
00:37:55- When we say Hall of
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1057
you say this is Hall of Fame?
- Againsaid, like the drama.
00:38:08- The drama was was be beautiful.
00:38:10- Like the Clown Hall of Fame.
00:38:11- Yeah, the Trolls Hall of Fame.
00:38:15- No, there's no no,
300:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,040
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life was like before
and what life was like after.
- So the Juicer Row goes
in the Hall of Fame.
00:38:26- No, your idea of what a Hall
300:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,040
1069
either been very good
very important
and you kind of need at least
two of those three things
00:38:41to be in the Hall of Fame.
00:38:43And I think Quibi was just interesting.
00:38:44- That's fair.
00:38:45- Like it wasn't important
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1079
to mind was like Theranos.
Theranos I think was very interesting
and very important in that like
what it meant in the bigger
world was a lot more than.
00:39:03- This Hall of Fame sucks.
00:39:05Theranos will probably
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1088
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1092
1093
out here. That's all.
Alright. Thank you both
for doing this with me.
00:39:27This was delightful. If you have an idea
00:39:29for a better name than Quibi, tell us
00:39:32and we'll bring it back
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1104
Untitled Verge Debate show.
By the way
for either of these
shows, I'm very into it.
00:39:59Naming things is hard.
300:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,040
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1110
1111
1112
that as funny as I do.
So if you have name ideasstructure ideas, show ideas,
00:40:14anything, hit us up.
00:40:15Vergecast@theverge.com. Call the hotline.
00:40:17866-Verge-11.
00:40:19We love to hear it all.
00:40:20But anyway, back to the debate show.
00:40:22The idea with this one was basically
00:40:24to just have a mini
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stakes stuff about whatever car
brands or Nokia versus Apple.
A million years ago we had like big
long debates about Windows
phone versus Android.
00:40:44There were so many of these things.
00:40:46We've had teeny, tiny,
00:40:47inconsequential debates
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pit us against each other
and have us like fight for real
about which thing is better.
00:41:03So that's essentially what the show is.
00:41:06Last week we talked about
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1145
1146
1102
1148
1149
1150
hosts on the topic
of books versus e-readers.
First upCranz, deputy editor.
00:41:39Welcome to the debate, Alex.
00:41:41- Hi. I am so happy to be here
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determine who gets to go first.
Following open statements.
Each host will be given two
minutes to answer my questions
00:42:03with an option of up
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eBooks versus printed books.
Nowthem today, have been around
00:42:25for decades, believe it or not.
00:42:27In fact, you can go all
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1180
released the first Kindle
and it kind of revolutionized
the whole ebook market.
00:42:41Kindle had wireless
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other companies have come out
with similar devices to the Kindle
but it's still a relatively
small market compared
00:43:02to actual printed books.
00:43:04So we ask the question, which is better,
00:43:06an ebook or a printed book.
00:43:09Now we move on to our opening statements
00:43:11at virtual coin toss.
00:43:14Let's see, Kevin is the
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to go first or second?
- You knowAlex, why don't you go first?
00:43:32- Ah, I see how it is. I see how it's.
00:43:34- Kevin wants that, that final word
00:43:37at the in the closing arguments.
00:43:38Okay. And with that, we'll
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1210
you can put them on anything.
Can't do that with a book.
Books you have to like take with you.
You can only have one
unless you're really strong
eBooks you can have like
dozens depending on the storage
00:44:05of your e-reader or phone.
00:44:07Also great about eBooks, they
300:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,040
300:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,040
1220
up." They can just push
that edit out and then
you'll get the fixed version
00:44:21of that book.
00:44:22And I think that's really great
00:44:23and can never go wrong for anyone.
00:44:25Also, eBooks are really, really nice
00:44:28because of accessibility.
00:44:30They're very, very easy to read.
00:44:32They are wonderful fonts
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can can see the text easier.
And you just don't have that kind
of flexibility from a traditional book
where you usually have to have
some sort of magnifying glass
00:44:50and then you have to walk around
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like the books Palmer
or the Kindle
or the Libra from Cobo
a lot of different companies make
really
that have really
They have reallygood features in them.
00:45:15And again, they give you that flexibility.
00:45:17And I think that's what's
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left
- Oh- Oh, and in conclusion,
00:45:33eBooks rule, regular books are fine.
00:45:37Thank you for your time.
00:45:38- Okay, Kevin, what say you?
00:45:41- Well, I just wanna start, you know,
00:45:43I feel like I'm being a cast
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accessibility
for the visually impaired.
That saidthe print book is an old
00:46:09and near perfect technology.
00:46:10It's inexpensive, it's
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technology needed
no software necessary
And also in a time when we're
being not just in books,
00:46:24but across all of the media,
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1275
we'll have to our media
in the future.
Print books give you that access forever.
Owning a library
of your own physical
books means you'll be able
00:46:40to read them in perpetuity to sell them,
00:46:43to share them with friends, to
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can as quickly as possible.
I think readingreading is about good habits
00:47:03and discipline.
00:47:04A print book is isolated from the rest
00:47:06of the things on your phone,
00:47:07and that's what makes the
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out of what you're consuming.
Maybe you'll even think about it outside
of consumption itself.
You know
I also think books allow you
to be very deliberate with your time.
The physical presence of
a book on your nightstand
00:47:30is a reminder of what you're reading
00:47:32and what you've decided
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1307
monopoly is an eBooks
and I think every publisher
and author in bookstore would probably say
that it's not great for the ecosystem.
You knowdon't believe in monopolies,
00:47:53I think you have some skepticism
00:47:54about how much you buy from Amazon.
00:47:56There's also a whole ecosystem
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- Alright.
- Yeah
- Kevinopportunity to finish that thought
00:48:08with your first question.
00:48:09However, our first question
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1322
you than is possible
with printed books.
This reminds me of the iPod
but in that category
music has very much moved
into the digital realm.
00:48:25Why haven't books been
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consumed at the same way
that music is consumed.
And so people are much
more, as Kevin said,
00:48:41deliberate with their choices.
00:48:42And there have been very, very few options
00:48:45for them historically, right?
00:48:47Historically it was Barnes
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in the last few years.
Also coinciding with the
rise in reading of eBooks
00:49:00and a rise in the sales
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eBooks from your library.
- Kevinin your opening statement
00:49:13that books are a near perfect technology,
00:49:17but as we look towards
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industry need to do
to solve that problem?
- Yeahthere's a lot of evidence
00:49:32to say that, you know, Gen
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that's great with me
I still think reading's just a greater way
to access a
and thought thanknow, maybe consuming
00:49:49a lot of YouTube content.
00:49:51But I think it's, publishers
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itself is run by a lot
of like much older people that
don't understand the youth.
00:50:02So I think just understanding the trends
00:50:04and what young people
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think the resistance
to reading has anything to
do with books themselves,
00:50:16but what publishers are choosing
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people are not TikTok creators
they're just people living in
their home, particularly Gen Z
00:50:52and they enjoy reading other ways, right?
00:50:55The phone is the center point
00:50:57of their technological universe
00:50:59and having those opportunities
00:51:00there are really, really important.
00:51:02But I do agree that
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end up in agreement here.
- Yeahactually both are great
00:51:13at Amazon's the real villain.
00:51:16- Okay. Cranz, the next
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criticisms that is perennial
to eBooks is the cost of them
that they are oftentimes
if not usually cheaper than
their printed counterparts.
00:51:35Apple notoriously colluded with
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with their publishers.
Both Kevin and I are
published authors, Kevin
00:52:03with his name Meander a pseudonym
00:52:05because it was a romance novel
00:52:07and what you find out is that
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still getting in the way
and taking a significant cut
and trying to make sure that the cut
that the authors receive
via eBooks is the same
00:52:34as via traditional print, despite the fact
00:52:37that traditional print
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actually by percentage higher
for authors than they are
in the print book space
00:52:55for hardcover and ebook,
00:52:56it usually mets out to about the same,
00:52:58but once he gets a paperback, you know,
00:53:00selling an ebook versus a
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I think you know
and you knowto raise the cost of books,
00:53:16but it was like to protect, you know,
00:53:19an existing infrastructure of cost
00:53:21that was being driven down
00:53:22by the digital marketplace by Amazon.
00:53:25So publishers do understand
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- It's Amazon's fault.
- Okay. Moving on to the more
the technology side of these,
00:53:43of these two technologies,
00:53:44the next question is for you Kevin.
00:53:46What do books provide to the
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has struggles with this.
Like I think we all wish we read more.
I think we all wish we
had time to read more.
00:54:08I think we all wish we had the patience
00:54:10and space to read more
00:54:11and I think the print
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bit about E ink devices
or dedicated digital reading devices.
Some of them are very good
but I just think the focuseven to just choose one book
00:54:30and stick with it is a very
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don't want the same feeling
of scrolling Netflix endlessly
when you're trying to read a book
- Cranz instead of giving
you a chance to respond.
00:54:48I'm gonna ask you a similar question.
00:54:50eBooks provide many features on top
00:54:52of the reading experience.
00:54:54Some of these could be
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as an ebook reader in terms
of these features?
What is the the minimum required?
- All rightto answer that question,
00:55:20but I'm gonna take five
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cut from my books Palmer
that I've had for two days
but I have gotten a paper cut from
is a yearbook in my childhood bedroom?
It sucks. Anywaymore than five seconds.
00:55:41But what really matters about
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ability to be able to switch.
For me it's alsoreally, really quickly
00:55:52and I tend to read one book at a time.
00:55:55Like the the focus problem
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because I want everything now
and the fact that I get
instant access with an E-reader
00:56:08and I don't have to worry
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oftentimes while still paying
an independent bookstore
and making sure they
get a cut of the profit
00:56:20is just something really
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of those like really big like
tabletop books.
You knowpages you'll be getting a ton
00:56:42of paper cuts that TaeKwonDo
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that came up more often
than not for the side
for printed books is the
experience of marginalia.
00:57:08I know that eBooks have this ability now,
00:57:11but many people that I
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different to them.
Do you think marginality is important?
Is that something as a
reader you participate in
00:57:31and do you think that is
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from the print book
So I don't think it surpasses it
unless you feel very strongly
about your highlights sinking
00:57:48to the cloud, in which case
00:57:49I would urge you to read digitally then.
00:57:52But no, I think writing in
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you're experiencing.
My issue with breeding
on electronic devices
00:58:05is that the advantage of them
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learn
to remember thingsin the margins is just a great
00:58:18way actually to remember things.
00:58:20It's why you take notes in school.
00:58:22It's not just so you
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as it is in a print book.
That said
that writes really stupid
things in the margin.
00:58:36So I'll revisit some of my
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you all writing in your books?
Get a notebook.
Everybody just
put the little page number down.
Do the librarians and booksellers
in your lives a favor.
00:58:54Don't go writing in your books.
00:58:56That's just that that's,
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whole word described for it.
It's now a feature on a Kindle.
(gentle music)
- Okay. Fascinating POV from you both.
It's time now to move
on to closing statements
00:59:16and up first we have Alex Cranz.
00:59:18- Yeah, I mean I could
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it's fine
or you buy a new eReader and
you still have all your books.
00:59:34You leave your copy of King Arthur,
00:59:36the Knights Of The Round
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in a market improvement
over the regbook, what's really,
00:59:56really nice about them is
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generally proven to just be like
a normal book nerd.
And you can technically
write in the marginalia,
01:00:12is that what it's called?
01:00:13You can write in your books
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there
it'll look beautifulput little stickers on it.
01:00:27I think that is really, really crucial
01:00:29and you can do that with
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that provides opportunities
for a lot of people
that might not otherwise
have the opportunities
01:00:42or access to libraries which
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fancy binder from the nine
or I believe the early 90s
that had fabric covering
01:01:06and a zipper and-
01:01:07- There was unicorns,
01:01:09- Unicorns, pockets, all kinds
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a more efficient form
of a book
I'm here to appeal to the reader
who doesn't think of books
01:01:22as merely content.
01:01:24I wanna speak to the person
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healthy and sustainable.
Because those are the conditions
I think we should hope for,
01:01:33for all artists, writers,
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of fiction
And for the friends that are
a little crazier of poetry,
01:01:51not one of them would
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could use your business
and you should shop there unless you want
a future that's just Amazon.
And for the folks out there
who wanna save a few bucks
01:02:06because their imagination
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argument is entitlement
and a lack of appreciation
of what goes into making
the things you enjoy.
01:02:22In this moment where AI
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us think differently.
Thank you.
- You waited until the end
to call me out like that.
01:02:36- Wow.
01:02:38- I can't, and I don't
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Alex Cranz is a bad tipper.
(laughs)
Which isn't even true.
- Man I'm gonna get so much
hate now for tipping 5%.
01:02:59It was one time guys.
01:03:01- Alex, it was one time all restaurant.
01:03:03- It's an accident. Okay,
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by calling 866-Verge-11
or email us at vergecast@theverge.com
and let us know what
you think of this format
01:03:22and what other topics
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favorite questions in a while.
I don't play favoritesbut this is my favorite.
01:04:08It's about MP three players.
01:04:10- Hey Vergecast,
01:04:11this is anonymous from
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my job that we're not allowed
to have
and we're not allowed to have cameras.
And so there for a while I
had to carry the light phone
01:04:35too because there was no camera
01:04:36on it so I could use
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that be Bluetooth or wifi.
And I'm just wonderingthere any other solution
01:04:54other than buying an
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is just a strict MP3 player
that has headphones out like a three
and a half millimeter headphones
out, like no Bluetooth,
01:05:12no wifi, something I have
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maybe somebody somewhere
inside your place of business
has an answer or a fix.
01:05:26If I ever hear from
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a while we get a question
on the Vergecast hotline that
sends somewhere between one
01:05:38and all of us, just
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connected to the internet.
You have to use Bluetooth
to connect to it.
01:05:57Sony still makes Walkman's
01:06:00and a lot of them are very high end.
01:06:03They're basically an Android phone.
01:06:05It's like has Android on it, touchscreen,
01:06:08that's all connected to internet.
01:06:10But they do make one Walkman for $80.
01:06:14It looks like an iPod Nano.
01:06:15Okay.
01:06:16Wait, can I just quibble with
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if you imagine an iPod Nano
but like the iPod Nano you
would find like on Temu
01:06:26or like if you searched on on
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from what I can tell.
- Yeswithout a scroll wheel.
01:06:37It's, yeah, okay. Yeah,
01:06:38- That's right.
01:06:39- Yeah. Sony still makes it
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gigabytes of memory on it.
It's not a lotyou know, that's enough
01:06:57to swap a bunch of stuff out.
01:06:59I was easily able
01:07:01to just plug this right into
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plugged it into a pc
showed upinto it, like a thumb drive
01:07:16and it showed up on the player.
01:07:19It works just, it works great.
01:07:21- I feel like there's a catch coming here.
01:07:22What is the catch?
01:07:23- There's actually not
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headphones
as a little antennacan listen to the radio
01:07:52and I think that's just a beautiful thing.
01:07:54- That's cool. And it
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full name of this thing?
I'm assuming it's some
insane hexa decimal nonsense
01:08:04like Sony likes to do.
01:08:05- It is the NWE 394 Walkman
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gonna end up down the road
of like modding an iPod Classic
which is a thing I've seen a
bunch of people doing recently.
01:08:24You can actually get it to
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telling me there is at least
one half decent dedicated
offline music device
01:08:38that exists in the world still?
01:08:39- Yeah, totally.
01:08:40This will do it if
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sync in Bluetooth to sync
but it doesn't use the internet
while you're actually using
01:09:06it to connect it to your phone.
01:09:08- I see. Okay.
01:09:08- So that is a fun option
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like sort of magical now
that you can just plug a
thing in, drag some MP3 files
01:09:23and it just like works what a concept
01:09:25- It is. Yeah.
01:09:26- I will say it is kind of odd
01:09:28that Sony is making this
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who want the kind of high res
super high fidelity audio
that you're talking about.
01:09:40To make it as kind of
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work on military bases
we don't know.
- That's fair. I mean listen
- There's a lot of them out there.
Alright
should be required to
remember that bottle name.
01:10:01So we'll put the, we'll put
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your cool new Sony Walkman.
Andrew
- Thank you.
(gentle upbeat music)
- Alrightfor the Vergecast today.
01:10:22Thank you to everybody
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whole life of that company
and it is wild to read in retrospect.
Plus lots of stuff on E Ink devices
and lots of stuff on books
Check out the verge.com.
We'll put some stuff in the show notes.
But as always
Again it remains a very
very newsy summer
This show is produced by Andrew Marino
Liam James
The Vergecast is Verge Production
and part of the Vox Media podcast network.
Nilaywill be back on Friday
01:10:59to talk about whatever news is going on.
01:11:02I'm on vacation so I
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miss talking about the news.
They're gonna be back. Lots to cover.
I'll see you next week. Rock and roll.
(gentle upbeat music)